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Belokk
12th Oct 2013, 12:36
As those who actually played the Legacy of Kain games, may(or may not) remember, Dark Gifts were a staple in the lore for vampires, each having their own unique (or not so unique) power, that could also be copied/stolen by another vampire drinking their blood.

So the question that needs to be asked, Will they be in the game for the vampires? if not WHY? (other than a possible excuse that the player vamps are not de/evolved enough) if so what might their mechanics be? a randomized passive/perk/ability for each vampire? a customizable version of the previous? could said Dark Gifts be borrowed, temporarily by allies taking your blood? or is it possible, that the player vampire clans current forms ARE, from their Dark Gifts? (technically more their sires)

What might be the real answer, AND what does the community think about this?

TheIrtar
12th Oct 2013, 16:11
Customization in abilities and passives is good. Gives you things to progress towards, and allows you to build up a meta strategy that people can really dig into.

I would hope, and expect, that both factions would have the ability to customize their classes.

Dark Gifts for the Vampires, and Sacred Blessings (or something like that) for the Humans.

Vampmaster
12th Oct 2013, 16:46
Aren't all the vampires abilities dark gifts? I thought that was just their way of referring to their powers.

Wraithblade6
12th Oct 2013, 18:04
Keep in mind, there's no "progression" in this game, only side-grades.

ZeroFernir
12th Oct 2013, 19:45
Aren't all the vampires abilities dark gifts? I thought that was just their way of referring to their powers.

Me too =P except the ones they do magically and the fisical ones. Like Kain's wolf form or the Razielim "super jump" that we saw on the trailer.

Vampmaster
12th Oct 2013, 20:15
I suppose the magical abilities could be thought of as something they can learn rather than something that came about as a result of them being vampires. Is that what you're saying? The physical abilities on the otherhand, are things that are definitely inherant to their vampiric nature. For example, they can only super jump because of their inherant vampire strength and only do the berserk attack because vampires are inherantly faster that humans.

Coming back to the magical abilities, it's likely the vampires are naturally sensitive or attuned magical forces in some way. That makes it very difficult so single out any of their abilities as not dark gifts. It could also be what Janos means about humans not being competant to serve the pillars.

AlterRequiem
12th Oct 2013, 20:19
I Want a mist/stealth Function So Bad :(

ZeroFernir
12th Oct 2013, 20:51
I suppose the magical abilities could be thought of as something they can learn rather than something that came about as a result of them being vampires. Is that what you're saying? The physical abilities on the otherhand, are things that are definitely inherant to their vampiric nature. For example, they can only super jump because of their inherant vampire strength and only do the berserk attack because vampires are inherantly faster that humans.

Coming back to the magical abilities, it's likely the vampires are naturally sensitive or attuned magical forces in some way. That makes it very difficult so single out any of their abilities as not dark gifts. It could also be what Janos means about humans not being competant to serve the pillars.

I think that Dark gifts are the powers vampires re born with.

Vampmaster
12th Oct 2013, 21:16
I think that Dark gifts are the powers vampires re born with.

I agree, but Umah said in BO2 that the Dark Gifts develop differently in each of them and Raziel says in SR1 that the gift continued to evolve. If they're developing, that means they get new or improved ones over time.

All I was saying was that aptitude ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptitude") for magic can easilly be one of the gifts that all vampires start with.

I included the link because it mentions that it can also be physical and because it references competance as I was saying Janos spoke about.

Tube_Reaver
13th Oct 2013, 09:10
I Want a mist/stealth Function So Bad :(

This so much this!

kainthekiller
13th Oct 2013, 22:55
I think that Dark Gifts are a must just have to tune it right.

DanteMortanius
16th Oct 2013, 19:47
In a game like this, more choices are always better. Of course humans have to get something similar otherwise the game is unbalanced. Someone mentioned blessings and that's a good start. Though how they manifest I think would have to be different than Vampires. Dark gifts tend to manifest physically for Vampires (save charm and Magnus' Immolation). Humans could perhaps gain better sight (see or sense vampires approaching), map control, or maybe even things like master hunters (better crit chance on vampire). Just brainstorming.

Sluagh
9th Nov 2013, 09:37
It's difficult balancing the lore + dynamics of the story, with making this type of game from what I can see. You don't anything that gives a real measurable difference or detracts from player skill in my view. I think if there was much minor progression, it should be human focused as the humans are surely forced by their environment to learn and practice as in the arms race with the vampires. The vampires have no need to learn anything - they grow and change in supernatural, random, powerful ways, but this has its own problems. So just to sum up if they do go at all beyond side-grades (which I think they shouldn't) they should focus it like VAMPIRE = random boon, HUMAN = equals knack, or minor skill.

xXLittle_ShadowXx
12th Nov 2013, 06:24
This may not make too much sense but I always thought that the Dark Gift was both something vampires were born with but also something they honed over time, that was somewhat different for each vamp. I also was under the impression that the 'Father' (Luuuke...khhh lol jk :p) vamp could hold the most dark gifts, and the others (at least for both of Kain's broods...as I understood (Faustus, Magnus, and the bunch) in BO2 plus Turel, Raz, Dumah and the Gang) held a piece of the parent's dark gift. So would it make sense to have a few dark gifts per type of vamp?

I'm not sure about the drinking blood bit, because if I remember right, Kain and Raziel Both absorbed each appropriate brood's souls (and Kain could do this because I'm guessing he put a bit of himself, so to speak, into their making, so once the 'shell' was destroyed, that bit of his soul returned to him?) (Now I'm remembering why Bo2 and SR1 reminded me so much of Highlander lol!). But I'm not sure how that would effect each lieutenant's progeny - would they be drained of that power? Or would they be able to carry on like nothing happened since it didn't happen directly to them (hopefully this one :D ) How would it be traceable back to their de-evolution?

As far as human's and magical gifts go, there were spellcasters in SR2 and Defiance that I'm aware of...SR1 I'm not so sure though. But I would think it would be as likely for humans to have some form of extra power just as much as the vampires...although maybe not as potent/ refined? In both games spellcasters generally boosted their buddy's fighting strength/ability and could release a burst of energy that knocked vamps off their feet at close range. In Defiance some could teleport I believe (or it could just be the fact that I haven't stayed up this late in a really...really long time).

I think something kind of like the Dragon age magic/ ability build-ups would make the most sense...but that's just me.

Wow.. there's so much I wrote...wonder if anyone will read this...? >_>

Sluagh
12th Nov 2013, 19:00
I also was under the impression that the 'Father' (Luuuke...khhh lol jk :p) vamp could hold the most dark gifts, and the others (at least for both of Kain's broods...as I understood (Faustus, Magnus, and the bunch) in BO2 plus Turel, Raz, Dumah and the Gang) held a piece of the parent's dark gift. So would it make sense to have a few dark gifts per type of vamp?



I thought the vampires in BO2 were given the gift by Vorador. Kain couldn't make vampires in the normal way as he is product of necromancy. In terms of souls and division of souls I am not sure. Kain never reaped the souls of the vampires I thought - it was some kind of blood, vein fusing process (although I always thought it was a bit rude that he never took anything from Umah, just killed her in a rather callous way and then mumbled something about queens. If he was that into her he could at least have drained her blood). Raziel harvests his brethren's souls. Somehow, the last part of Defiance ends up with a strange Kain/Raziel/Soul Reaver merging...it's all a bit confusing.

How this relates to the new game I am not sure. The vampires are products of necromancy, like Kain. However it's hard to untangle their devolving from the general Pillar related corruption of Nosgoth. We tend to think of evolution/devolution as having a definite direction but in essence it often seems to slip down a lacuna, or end in something less 'useful' that before. I think thus the idea of random boons is more suitable. But giving the humans skills development, or rediscovering old magic booms seems like letting them off the hook. We also know where this ends up...with an even more devolved vampire in SR 1 era and a marginalised, feckless human. Something has to go wrong for both in their attempts to dominate things.


Maybe it's like the soul passes through the vampire doing the absorbing and leaves kind of an imprint before moving on. In Raziel's case it would go directly to the elder god and in Kain's case it would just pass into the spectral realm until it gets eaten or dissipates or whatever else happens.

Yeah there were vampire souls ambling about in the spectral realm in SR1 who Raziel could devour. However EG's Lion King-esque"the circle of life" routine never fully revealed exactly what the whole soul process was, just that vampires were spurned from it as part of their curse. Which in turns conflates the whole devolution issue somewhat, as it's not exactly clear, in my mind, whether Kain's impaired function as balance guardian and vampirism is some kind of contradiction that leads to his lineage's degeneration, or the overall destruction from the Pillars collapsing. or a bit of both. Gaargh! "Water is not my friend!"

Vampmaster
12th Nov 2013, 19:52
Maybe it's like the soul passes through the vampire doing the absorbing and leaves kind of an imprint before moving on. In Raziel's case it would go directly to the elder god and in Kain's case it would just pass into the spectral realm until it gets eaten or dissipates or whatever else happens.

lordbane2110
14th Nov 2013, 10:51
heh @sluagh "Gaargh! "Water is not my friend!"

but i do think each clan should have a dark gift or a form of the dark gifts, and naturally to balance this the humans should get something too, just not sure what

Vampmaster
14th Nov 2013, 14:20
If they're going to be a seperate thing from the abilities we've seen so far, then there should be an extra slot for them. There was only two at the community event and I felt an third one would make it a bit less repetitive. Especially when more customisations become available.

The_Hylden
15th Nov 2013, 00:07
All abilities and magical powers vampries have are Dark Gifts. They're born with their own powers, but they evolve others over time.

"Kain would enter the state of change and emerge with a new gift. Some years after the master, our evolution would follow..." These old and new abilities are the "Dark gifts [that] manifest differently in each of" them, as Marcus noted also.

Some spells that Kain possessed in BO1 could be learned, too, as he notes on them when acquiring them. Something like Spirit Wrack, "It was a spell worthy of the Necromancer, himself..." Kain also basically remembered many of the powers he already had after defeating the BO2 vampires. The whole "absorption of veins" thing was unnecessary, as he already had all of the powers, save one, in BO1. The only real new one was Immolate. Berserk is just really strong and really fast, angry Kain. Long Jump is the same as him leaping in Wolf Form, so probably would develop for him outside of that form naturally over time.

Etc.

Anyway, the powers that they have added and any new ones they intend to for the vampries in Nosgoth are theirDark Gifts. Any more classic ones re-purposed that may show up shouldn't have their own designation, but are simply more of the dark gifts they can have.

lordbane2110
21st Nov 2013, 10:38
so in essence we could get 3 dumahim each with a different skill set, depending on the dark gifts chosen?

Violet-n-red
27th Nov 2013, 22:02
if there's no character progression from match to mtch the now about that: temporary perks from dead bodies? like, vampires drinks the leftovers of blood and sinke there's not much of it, they don't get much of the benefits and they're not lasting long. as for the humans, they get and ingredient from a corpse and use it with a pre-mixed potion.
or blood altars / spirit forges / alchemy stations / spell shrines. might be capturable points also. like, a turning wall with one thing on a first side, and the another one on the second, a hollow collumn with one thing on top of it and another inside. might even throw in a puzzle for activating that kind of stuff =D

lordbane2110
28th Nov 2013, 11:30
hmmm that's a novel idea, much like the capturable points in Brink, who ever controls them gains a specific benifit to there class

ZenFactor
28th Nov 2013, 11:40
Some sort of a talent tree system and some room on active skill selection (picking 3-4 out of 10-12 available skills) would be awesome, so we could expiriment different builds and keep us excited. It would give some variation, due to the limited amount of "classes" ingame