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ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 15:06
Explaining the Mindlink theory (idea by Vampmaster and me, Zero)

1- Every one of Kain's descendents would have a mindlink with its creator (the vampire who made him a vampire too), creating by the act of sharing the soul of the vampire with it's fledgling.
2- Kain's Lieutenants where devolving because of Nupraptor' curse (which affected directly only Kain, but indirectly affected his descendents, by affecting the way Kain see them, associating them with animals, in which they would (d)evolve, because of their mind links).
4- Vampires whose master went crazy, suffered a lot or were absent, would have to pupate sooned and, so, (d)evolve sooner, so if the thing who killed/tortured/anything his master come to get him, he would be stronger after puppating and (d)evolving
3- This way, neighter of the other vampires would have the (d)evolving and would explain Razielim (d)evolving faster than the others, and (d)evolving first the wings and other caracteristics before the talons (which wouldn't be that useful in a battle situation).

Thank you guys for the atention,
Cristopher "Zero" Pölzl

Denam_Pavel
10th Oct 2013, 15:18
Explaining the Mindlink theory (idea by Vampmaster and me, Zero)

1- Every one of Kain's descendents would have a mindlink with its creator (the vampire who made him a vampire too), creating by the act of sharing the soul of the vampire with it's fledgling.
2- Kain's Lieutenants where devolving because of Nupraptor' curse (which affected directly only Kain, but indirectly affected his descendents, by affecting the way Kain see them, associating them with animals, in which they would (d)evolve, because of their mind links).
4- Vampires whose master went crazy, suffered a lot or were absent, would have to pupate sooned and, so, (d)evolve sooner, so if the thing who killed/tortured/anything his master come to get him, he would be stronger after puppating and (d)evolving
3- This way, neighter of the other vampires would have the (d)evolving and would explain Razielim (d)evolving faster than the others, and (d)evolving first the wings and other caracteristics before the talons (which wouldn't be that useful in a battle situation).

Thank you guys for the atention,
Cristopher "Zero" Pölzl

Well I'd say the relationship between Kain's curse and his brood's devolution is more based on the fact that he used parts of his own soul to create them rather then how he sees them. Otherwise I don't really see why the devolution would have any relation to which lieutenant is older/stronger.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 15:25
Well I'd say the relationship between Kain's curse and his brood's devolution is more based on the fact that he used parts of his own soul to create them rather then how he sees them. Otherwise I don't really see why the devolution would have any relation to which lieutenant is older/stronger.

It doesn't. Raziel developed first because Kain had him as his "prodigal son" and right hand. He actually gave more attention to Taziel. Otherwise, it could be explained too by Raziel having most of his soul, that making him the most powerful and the most capable of doing the (d)evolution goes fast, so he could keep being the stronger. Maybe he (d)evoluted surpassing Kain because se's got actually more soul than even kain. The amount that Kain keeped looks like to be really little, as he didn't (d)evolved at all.

RainaAudron
10th Oct 2013, 16:57
I think Aevum has already explained how it works pretty well...

Denam_Pavel
10th Oct 2013, 17:48
It doesn't. Raziel developed first because Kain had him as his "prodigal son" and right hand. He actually gave more attention to Taziel. Otherwise, it could be explained too by Raziel having most of his soul, that making him the most powerful and the most capable of doing the (d)evolution goes fast, so he could keep being the stronger. Maybe he (d)evoluted surpassing Kain because se's got actually more soul than even kain. The amount that Kain keeped looks like to be really little, as he didn't (d)evolved at all.

Their evolution as vampires and their devolving into barely sentient monsters are two seperate processes in my mind. In the former, Kain grew more rapidly then any of the others for a thousand years. Melchiah was granted the smallest portion of Kain's gift and was very clearly the least human in the intro with a his neck that's wider then his head. Raziel went into the state of change and emerged with new gifts many times during his time with Kain but seemed very surprised by what happened to the clans.

The way I see it, Kain himself was a complete vampire and starting with Raziel downwards with every lesser version of the gift they were less stable. Turel is a special case as by the time we see him he may have been devolving for many more centuries then anyone else we've seen.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 00:24
Their evolution as vampires and their devolving into barely sentient monsters are two seperate processes in my mind. In the former, Kain grew more rapidly then any of the others for a thousand years. Melchiah was granted the smallest portion of Kain's gift and was very clearly the least human in the intro with a his neck that's wider then his head. Raziel went into the state of change and emerged with new gifts many times during his time with Kain but seemed very surprised by what happened to the clans.

The way I see it, Kain himself was a complete vampire and starting with Raziel downwards with every lesser version of the gift they were less stable. Turel is a special case as by the time we see him he may have been devolving for many more centuries then anyone else we've seen.

Actually, Melchiah's body is just decomposing before it can even reach his (d)evolution. Plus, Kain would certainly (d)evolve too, but he just had not enough time for that (I saw some of SR1 dev. talking about this a few days ago, but can't remember were... Dev said, also, that when Kain became pure, after killing Raz in Defiance, that he would not (d)evolve anymore.

The_Hylden
11th Oct 2013, 03:57
Q: Why did Kain's lieutenants and their children in Soul Reaver 1 devolve? Was it because each of them inherited the corruption from his soul?
A: Yes, it was because of the corruption of Kain's soul. The amount of devolution was directly related to how much of his soul they received.
Q: Why didn't Kain evolve any further once Raziel had grown his wings?
A: The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.

As I've posted a few times, from these interviews (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#.Uld18hB43Hw) with the Defiance devs.

It does matter how strong they are and how much of his soul portion they got, as per that answer.

Melchiah has stitches and was trying to hold his original skin together. He was constantly fighting his body decomposition, as later his offspring do. The devolution of Rahab is starting to occur. He has gill slits and scales on his skin in the intro.

Kain is not affected by visible devolution like his offspring succumbed to. Although, to say his features were purely evolved is a bit much. The corruption of either the curse, or Nupraptor, would explain why his dull tan, golden body is so tarnished with cracks and rusting colors. His body doesn't succumb to devolution like the rest did, however.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 04:23
As I've posted a few times, from these interviews (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#.Uld18hB43Hw) with the Defiance devs.

It does matter how strong they are and how much of his soul portion they got, as per that answer.

Melchiah has stitches and was trying to hold his original skin together. He was constantly fighting his body decomposition, as later his offspring do. The devolution of Rahab is starting to occur. He has gill slits and scales on his skin in the intro.

Kain is not affected by visible devolution like his offspring succumbed to. Although, to say his features were purely evolved is a bit much. The corruption of either the curse, or Nupraptor, would explain why his dull tan, golden body is so tarnished with cracks and rusting colors. His body doesn't succumb to devolution like the rest did, however.

But that questions and aswers do not go against the theory, as I expected. I said in the theory explanation that the devolving was linked to Kain's corrupted soul (which was corrupted by Nupraptor).
About Kain's (d)evolution, it was said by other dev that Kain would (d)evolute, just had not time for that. That's why I thought that his lieutenants had more of his soul than himself, as he used it to revive the lieutenants. That would cause him to (d)evolute slower, as he got almost no more of his soul. Plus, after defiance, when his soul is purified by Raz's sacrifice, he would not (d)evolute anymore.

TendrilSavant
11th Oct 2013, 04:38
I think the reason why we don't see Kain devolve is because as soon as he casts Raziel into the vortex, he immediately uses the Chronoplast to meet him in the future.

RainaAudron
11th Oct 2013, 10:57
I think the reason why we don't see Kain devolve is because as soon as he casts Raziel into the vortex, he immediately uses the Chronoplast to meet him in the future.

Nupraptor´s curse affected Kain differently, but it was probably no reason for him to stick around anyway, why wait centuries if he can meet Raziel in an instant. Now that Kain is free of this corruption after Defiance, he will not devolve.

Vampmaster
11th Oct 2013, 11:36
Nupraptor´s curse affected Kain differently, but it was probably no reason for him to stick around anyway, why wait centuries if he can meet Raziel in an instant. Now that Kain is free of this corruption after Defiance, he will not devolve.

Although, he might have if things had been different:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/File:Defiance-Character-Kain-Concept-BeastMode.jpg

EDIT: Still looking for Shadow/Other's research to go with it. Hmm... It says wolf form, but wasn't there talk of devolution as well? Were there multiple theories?

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 11:44
Nupraptor´s curse affected Kain differently, but it was probably no reason for him to stick around anyway, why wait centuries if he can meet Raziel in an instant. Now that Kain is free of this corruption after Defiance, he will not devolve.

In fact I think that Kain was the only one that was the only one affected by Nupraptor. The others were affected by kain, through the link... which would explain a lot, as (d)evolution and madness...

Lord_Aevum
11th Oct 2013, 13:26
EDIT: Still looking for Shadow/Other's research to go with it. Hmm... It says wolf form, but wasn't there talk of devolution as well? Were there multiple theories?

Sorry, I'm afraid it was just a wolf form/beast mode ability which got canned from Defiance. It's not a devolved version.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 14:08
Sorry, I'm afraid it was just a wolf form/beast mode ability which got canned from Defiance. It's not a devolved version.

I am sure it was just a spell. he says it as he gets it.

Umbralim
11th Oct 2013, 16:42
one thing to consider is if the curse is solely caused by nupraptors curse directly, or is a indirect sideeffect of all the pillars being corrupted, since Kain is the guardian of balance hes the fulcrum of all the guardians powers and thus is affected by all of them. So its possible that nupraptors curse isn't causing the mutation but rather is what set off a chain reaction that led to it.

this seems more likely to me becuase when nupraptor snapped and began his mental attack on all the other guardians it was roughly 40 50 years before BO1 so even if he was stark raving mad it doesn't make sense for him to design a curse that would mutate vampires over the course of millenia he had no way of knowing vampires would even get mixed up in the circle

and besides that I'm still quite convinced the soul rotting in a body to long outside the proper wheel of fate (not the elder gods Parasitic feeding) has negative affects on the body and mind as a whole Vorador being an excellent example as he mutated long before Nupraptor was even a guardian.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 17:04
one thing to consider is if the curse is solely caused by nupraptors curse directly, or is a indirect sideeffect of all the pillars being corrupted, since Kain is the guardian of balance hes the fulcrum of all the guardians powers and thus is affected by all of them. So its possible that nupraptors curse isn't causing the mutation but rather is what set off a chain reaction that led to it.

this seems more likely to me becuase when nupraptor snapped and began his mental attack on all the other guardians it was roughly 40 50 years before BO1 so even if he was stark raving mad it doesn't make sense for him to design a curse that would mutate vampires over the course of millenia he had no way of knowing vampires would even get mixed up in the circle

and besides that I'm still quite convinced the soul rotting in a body to long outside the proper wheel of fate (not the elder gods Parasitic feeding) has negative affects on the body and mind as a whole Vorador being an excellent example as he mutated long before Nupraptor was even a guardian.

Actually, Nupraptor just started doing things against the circle of the nine in the beggining of BO1, and that is represented by the corruption of the pillars. Kain would mutate, he just had not enough time to start his final pupation. If he were not purefied at the end of Defiance, He would (d)evolute.

Umbralim
11th Oct 2013, 17:12
Actually, Nupraptor just started doing things against the circle of the nine in the beggining of BO1, and that is represented by the corruption of the pillars. Kain would mutate, he just had not enough time to start his final pupation. If he were not purefied at the end of Defiance, He would (d)evolute.

but in SE2 we saw the begin to corrupt shortly after Ariels death when Nupraptor supposedly discovered her mutilated corpse.

The_Hylden
11th Oct 2013, 20:29
this seems more likely to me becuase when nupraptor snapped and began his mental attack on all the other guardians it was roughly 40 50 years before BO1 so even if he was stark raving mad it doesn't make sense for him to design a curse that would mutate vampires over the course of millenia he had no way of knowing vampires would even get mixed up in the circle

It was 30 years before the present day of BO1. Kain was just born. He was only about 30 years old when turned into a vampire.

From the Silicon Knights' FAQ on BO1, this is how Nupraptor's madness affected the Circle of Nine:


Nupraptor

A magician of phenomenal mental and psychic ability, Nupraptor is hypersensitive to peoples' emotions and thoughts. This constant exposure has made him extremely unstable - prone to rash action and sometimes unpredictable and illogical decision making. He is a passionate man, however, and very loyal to those who are special to him. And so it was with Ariel, the original Balance wizard. When Nupraptor discovers that Mortanius, under the malevolent control of the Dark Entity, Hash'ak'gik, has murdered Ariel, he goes over the edge. He vows vengeance upon Mortanius and the fates that have caused this event, and turns his powerful magic to bear on the other members of the Circle of Nine. All across Nosgoth, the minds of the sensitive and intellectual are blasted by relentless waves of hatred. There is no stopping the assault. When the enchantment ends, the entire Circle is quite insane, some raving like madmen, others maliciously in control of their actions... And now, Nosgoth is at their mercy.

So, it was a decided, vengeful attack. Nupraptor's madness is what caused the Pillars to corrupt, not the other way around. Once he fell into total, vengeful madness, the mental and magical shockwave he sends out seeking to corrupt those he felt responsible for Ariel's murder passes over the Pillars and corrupts them to their core. So, you can say that if ever a Guardian succumbs to their dark desires and to madness, the Pillars will be tainted and will need a reboot of Guardians to heal them.



and besides that I'm still quite convinced the soul rotting in a body to long outside the proper wheel of fate (not the elder gods Parasitic feeding) has negative affects on the body and mind as a whole Vorador being an excellent example as he mutated long before Nupraptor was even a guardian.

Vorador may look mutated, or evolved to fit his environment -- whichever you wish. However, Janos has been alive a lot longer and was not affected in this way. He still looked the same as the original Ancients. The human Guardians we've seen also have unnatural longevity from the Pillars and while some were quite a physical byproduct of their alignment with the Pillars, others like Ariel at the time of her death, looked perfectly healthy and fine.




Actually, Nupraptor just started doing things against the circle of the nine in the beggining of BO1, and that is represented by the corruption of the pillars. Kain would mutate, he just had not enough time to start his final pupation. If he were not purefied at the end of Defiance, He would (d)evolute.

As the devs on this game have decided. The original statement on the matter is that he was not necessarily affected in the same way to devolve.

diuqSehT
11th Oct 2013, 20:36
Nupraptor´s curse affected Kain differently, but it was probably no reason for him to stick around anyway, why wait centuries if he can meet Raziel in an instant. Now that Kain is free of this corruption after Defiance, he will not devolve.

So Elder can no longer trap Kain in a cave-in, foil his teleport ability so there's no escape, and then wait for time to run out on Kain until he's forced to helplessly devolve in front of EG as the god laughs hysterically. Darn. That would have been quaint as something to include, even if Kain ultimately escaped it.

It'd be so nice if the devs had given us more than Kain isn't necessarily affected by devolution the same way. Because that gives us nothing to go on. Which means we get to this point over and over again in discussions only to have it unresolved when our best answer just sends us falling off a cliff back into an abyss of confusion. So what is sustaining Kain? Unknown. If they'd just given a solid one-senctence reason for why he's different from his kids when it comes to devolving, that would have been so much better. (Makes me wonder if they were just covering up an inconsistency by saying that, and they didn't have any further info they were hiding from us).

Options I'm fond of: Kain has the balance pillar anchoring him steady so he's not swept away on the tide of devolution with the others. Or Mortanius never intended for Kain to reproduce as a necro, he merely wanted Kain to be the champion for the cause of the living vampires like Vorador who were still around at the time, so Mort didn't build reproductive potential into the magic he used to turn Kain, which is why Kain's offspring can't stay without breaking down. But Mort did intend Kain to be sturdy for the long term, which is why he's unaffected by the devolve.

The_Hylden
11th Oct 2013, 20:48
At the time, they were still under the impression they would continue the story. So, they never wanted to fully reveal everything. Perhaps they had a statement they wanted to incorporate about this in the follow-up to Defiance.

Daniel Cabuco noted about Kain on his forum that when designing him, the team and he were under the impression that Kain's appearance, as we see him in his elder state, was in part due to Kain's ironclad will. Not consciously, but his subconscious desire to be seen as ruler, as king, is the reason for his golden, almost metallic skin, and the horned crown around his head. So, that says a hell of a lot how strong a character he is, that the very will of him was so powerful and so passionate, so resolute, it affected his actual evolution as a vampire.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 21:49
So Elder can no longer trap Kain in a cave-in, foil his teleport ability so there's no escape, and then wait for time to run out on Kain until he's forced to helplessly devolve in front of EG as the god laughs hysterically. Darn. That would have been quaint as something to include, even if Kain ultimately escaped it.

It'd be so nice if the devs had given us more than Kain isn't necessarily affected by devolution the same way. Because that gives us nothing to go on. Which means we get to this point over and over again in discussions only to have it unresolved when our best answer just sends us falling off a cliff back into an abyss of confusion. So what is sustaining Kain? Unknown. If they'd just given a solid one-senctence reason for why he's different from his kids when it comes to devolving, that would have been so much better. (Makes me wonder if they were just covering up an inconsistency by saying that, and they didn't have any further info they were hiding from us).

Options I'm fond of: Kain has the balance pillar anchoring him steady so he's not swept away on the tide of devolution with the others. Or Mortanius never intended for Kain to reproduce as a necro, he merely wanted Kain to be the champion for the cause of the living vampires like Vorador who were still around at the time, so Mort didn't build reproductive potential into the magic he used to turn Kain, which is why Kain's offspring can't stay without breaking down. But Mort did intend Kain to be sturdy for the long term, which is why he's unaffected by the devolve.

Or, the option I offer: He would (d)evolve someway, but he had less of his corrupted soul then their sons, because he gave it to them in order to revive them.


At the time, they were still under the impression they would continue the story. So, they never wanted to fully reveal everything. Perhaps they had a statement they wanted to incorporate about this in the follow-up to Defiance.

Daniel Cabuco noted about Kain on his forum that when designing him, the team and he were under the impression that Kain's appearance, as we see him in his elder state, was in part due to Kain's ironclad will. Not consciously, but his subconscious desire to be seen as ruler, as king, is the reason for his golden, almost metallic skin, and the horned crown around his head. So, that says a hell of a lot how strong a character he is, that the very will of him was so powerful and so passionate, so resolute, it affected his actual evolution as a vampire.

Ok... I have only one question: Is there anything that breaks my theory of the mind linking? Or something that doesn't break, but would be hard to explain?

Gryregaest
12th Oct 2013, 02:32
See, I always kind of figured that the drastic mutation of the vampires in Kain's empire had a lot to do with the state of the pillars and the world. All the vampires under Kain came into being after the pillars collapsed. This is clearly capable of adversely effecting the world at large, and given that the pillars were created by, and tied to, the Ancients, vampires going all wonky after they shatter wouldn't be surprising.

Of course, there's probably more to it than that. Because aside from the severely mutated forms, Kain's vampires differ from previous vampires in that they change to become like the rest of their clan, regardless of age. Fledgling vampires in SR1 look just as mutated as ancients. This isn't the case with previous vampires. Vorador mutated quite a bit over time, but none of the younger vampires he created inherited his physical traits (aside from normal vampire things, like fangs). The Ancients never appeared to mutate, but I chalk that up to them being the originals. The common mutations actually seem more like they are coming to resemble the ancients, with the talon hands and pointy ears and the like.

There's also the fact that Kain had a sort of non-conventional creation as a vampire. Granted, we don't really know much about how vampirism passes on to another person, but we do know that it usually involves something an actual vampire does. So far as I can tell, Mortanius just grabbed the Heart of Darkness and jammed it into Kain's chest.

The major difference I can tell with the Razielim and the other vampires in Kain's empire is that Raziel is all kinds of dead at this point. So if you were to point to a cause for their faster changing, I'd guess that's it. They sort of implied that this was connected in the live Q&A.

As for your mind link theory... I don't know, I didn't understand what you were talking about.

TheIrtar
12th Oct 2013, 06:44
I think the reason why we don't see Kain devolve is because as soon as he casts Raziel into the vortex, he immediately uses the Chronoplast to meet him in the future.

Watch the Dev Q&A. They say this is what happens, or at least it's their interpretation and they're running with it.

BUT I do think Kain is at his maximum physical (d)evolution. Here's why:

We know Human Vampires (d)evolve, even those raised by the Ancients. We know this because of Vorador. If they live long enough, they shed their human appearance (to a point). Kain, as he appears in the series so far, seems very similar in state as Vorador.

Now, up to this point, we still don't know how vampires make more vampires. Not a single source (in game, can't say for the various interactions with devs over the years) has been implicit on how a human becomes a vampire in normal circumstances. The only one we know of is Mortanius using the Heart of Darkness to revive Kain.

The only rules we have so far:

1 ) Vampires can be made from a corpse (See Kain and all the Lieutenants)

2 ) Magic is involved (See... Kain and all the Lieutenants)

3) Use of the heart of a vampire (Heart of Darkness) seems to be entirely unique to Kain

For all we know, this is how it is with all vampires, and how it has always been. Now, as to why Nupraptor's curse is actually important and why I think Kain wouldn't go any further than he has.

The Lieutenants were created through magic cast by Kain, who was corrupted thanks to Nupraptor. This means the magic Kain used to create them was also corrupted, and like all things the Guardians made after the death of Ariel, tainted. This taint plays through in their continuing devolution from men, to Vorador-like Ancient Human Vampires, to monstrosities.

Kain was not created normally. He was created through the Heart of Darkness, the untainted heart of an ancient vampire. Now, the question is whether Mortanius had to use any of his magic to get things done. If all it needed was the heart, or if he used the ancient Reaver Guardian's heart as a filter of sorts, then Kain may well have been no more corrupted (in so far as being a Vampire is concerned) than any other human vampire to walk Nosgoth before him.

I feel that, though Kain's soul had been tainted by Nupraptor's curse, his vampiric state was kept free of corruption by use of Janos' heart. The same cannot be said for the vampires that he spawned.

The_Hylden
12th Oct 2013, 07:25
Ok... I have only one question: Is there anything that breaks my theory of the mind linking? Or something that doesn't break, but would be hard to explain?

I am not sure what a mind link would be in this case. Kain's own soul portion, his essence, he breathed into the corpses of the Lieutenants and this portion of his soul acted as an achor to draw back their souls from the Underwolrd and curse them as vampires. It also passed the curse from Nupraptor that tainted Kain onto them, into their souls, via his own. I don't know what his mind link is you're suggesting, but this is the nature of how they were cursed, or how the curse passed onto them. His soul infected them like a virus. His body could handle it, but theirs could not. If you wish, his mind couldn't handle it as well, but Kain's body could, while his offspring succumbed in all ways -- mind, body, and soul.


Now, up to this point, we still don't know how vampires make more vampires. Not a single source (in game, can't say for the various interactions with devs over the years) has been implicit on how a human becomes a vampire in normal circumstances. The only one we know of is Mortanius using the Heart of Darkness to revive Kain.

The only rules we have so far:

1 ) Vampires can be made from a corpse (See Kain and all the Lieutenants)

2 ) Magic is involved (See... Kain and all the Lieutenants)

3) Use of the heart of a vampire (Heart of Darkness) seems to be entirely unique to Kain

For all we know, this is how it is with all vampires, and how it has always been. Now, as to why Nupraptor's curse is actually important and why I think Kain wouldn't go any further than he has.

The Lieutenants were created through magic cast by Kain, who was corrupted thanks to Nupraptor. This means the magic Kain used to create them was also corrupted, and like all things the Guardians made after the death of Ariel, tainted. This taint plays through in their continuing devolution from men, to Vorador-like Ancient Human Vampires, to monstrosities.

Kain was not created normally. He was created through the Heart of Darkness, the untainted heart of an ancient vampire. Now, the question is whether Mortanius had to use any of his magic to get things done. If all it needed was the heart, or if he used the ancient Reaver Guardian's heart as a filter of sorts, then Kain may well have been no more corrupted (in so far as being a Vampire is concerned) than any other human vampire to walk Nosgoth before him.

I feel that, though Kain's soul had been tainted by Nupraptor's curse, his vampiric state was kept free of corruption by use of Janos' heart. The same cannot be said for the vampires that he spawned.


Amy Hennig did answer the differences (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#.Ulj3URB43Hw) of how vampires are raised after Soul Reaver 2:


Q: How did Janos make Voradoor-like Kain made Raziel and his sons, or like
Mortanius made Kain? Was the way Kain made and the way Kain created his
brethren the same? Howd Voradoor make his children?

A: Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.

Later, they also expound obviously that Mortanius used the Heart of Darkness, but he raises Kain's soul back through necromancy, which is part of his abilities as Death Guardian. Kain also uses necromancy, with the ability to breath a portion of his soul into the corpses and this draws back their soul from the underworld. Raziel also notes in the SR1 manual this method, saying the humans think it's the body that contains the curse, where the body is only a vessel and their very souls are cursed.

This does not appear to be the case for humans turned by the "traditional" method, through a "blood gift." First of all, humans turned prior to Kain's empire seemed to be alive while the process happened. This method sounds more like drink the Ancient's blood and become cursed, or Vorador's, or something of that nature. This curses their bodies, more than likely, and not their souls, which is why they are easier to kill than Kain's brood. You can kill them through inflicting wounds that Kain's vampires would heal from almost instantly, as you can note in BO2, or the vampires Kain fights in BO1.

Denam_Pavel
12th Oct 2013, 14:39
Blood Omen 2 makes it seem that creating vampires the tradional way is pretty strenous process and that Vorador is one of the few left that knows how. But as mentioned the creator hadn't really decided to on what exactly it might yet.

TheIrtar
12th Oct 2013, 16:08
This does not appear to be the case for humans turned by the "traditional" method, through a "blood gift." First of all, humans turned prior to Kain's empire seemed to be alive while the process happened. This method sounds more like drink the Ancient's blood and become cursed, or Vorador's, or something of that nature. This curses their bodies, more than likely, and not their souls, which is why they are easier to kill than Kain's brood. You can kill them through inflicting wounds that Kain's vampires would heal from almost instantly, as you can note in BO2, or the vampires Kain fights in BO1.

Yes, but unless there are more Q&A up your sleeves (which, you being you, you probably do :P) that still isn't explicit. As I said before, when it comes to the previous dev Q&A's I'm a bit (lot) ignorant so I'm working almost entirely off the in game resources and lore.

Now, my problem with it being just a mark of the body is that we've learned Vampirism isn't just a curse / gift / condition. To be a Vampire is also to be tied to an ancient, non-human race. If they were just fulfilling random roles, or rewards I'd be fine with the concept of them just having a blood-thirsty, undying body.

The problem comes in they needed to keep Vampire Guardians for the pillars.

We know from Mortanius and Moebius that the pillars grant, if not immortality, then really really long life. We know that the Ancient Vampires designed the pillars around their faith in the wheel (to take into account the cycle of life, death, and rebirth). So, it is likely not for the sake of the longevity of the Guardians that they would need to turn them.

I doubt having the Guardians literally hungry for blood is a reason to turn them either.

The difference then, would have to come down to a spiritual level. Otherwise, why not leave them human? If their souls remained untouched, the pillars would still have essentially Human Guardians whether touched by the Dark Gift or not. The basis of their spiritual connection with the pillars would still be non-Vampiric.

The Dark Gift must, in some way, change the character of the soul, even when granted by the Ancients.

Now, we can say that it doesn't affect the soul. That, even when the Ancients started turning new Human Vampire Guardians that their Guardianship was still blighted. That, from the moment the first Vampiric Guardian fell and a Human took its place the pillars were doomed to crumble.

The Dark Gift was a curse crafted by the Hylden specifically to afflict the Vampires with immortality and to make them barren. It would make sense that it wasn't designed to allow them to just pass on their lineage through Humanity. Now, the Ancient Vampires (being spell savvy enough to build a sealing spell powered by the life force of the entire planet) could have tampered with the Dark Gift to give it the form we recognize.

So, maybe the Ancient Vampires designed it to make those afflicted gain the same spiritual essence as themselves. Maybe THEY designed it to so it could be spread by their cursed blood? It is entirely possible, with whatever new parameters they could've added to the curse, it could be transferred to a Hylden now for all we know.

Lord_Aevum
12th Oct 2013, 16:58
@TheIrtar

There isn't a statement available out there saying that Vorador, or other vampires sired through the ancients' bloodline, transferred the curse through their souls. The reverse has been indicated though, that they didn't. That Amy said twice that Kain couldn't use the "traditional blood gift" and instead had a unique, necromantic method is one thing. This is another:


As I understood it in our world, a portion of the soul had to be transported into the vessel to call back the original soul and curse it, fusing it with undead life. Traditional vampire creation theories usually have living willing victims. The Sarafan that Kain raised were clearly dead a very long time, and therefore would need blood and soul transferrance. This is a form of necromancy (not the kind Mortanius used) using vampiric resurrection and blood gift. And the younger vamps can't do it.
Also,I didn't mean to imply that Vorador used necromancy, but that he had to be an Elder in order to raise vampires.
If I was going to do a level in LOK where you raise the Sarafan Lieutenants, I'd make sure there were quests to bring back things to the corpse, and maybe an amphora jar with blood in it for Kain to recover after raising a corpse.

I don't think there's only one single reason why the ancient vampires decided that humans were incompetent, and that they needed to impose the curse on them to secure their bloodline and culture. There are many explanations for that which make sense, none of which (as far as I know) involve some special unknown factor about souls.

As a general comment on the posts in this topic, I think it's also wise to keep in mind that evolving and devolving are not one and the same. Evolving is a process provoked by the blood curse which is common to every single vampire in Nosgoth. Vorador evolved; the BO2 vampires evolved. Devolving is not synonymous with this; it's Nupraptor's curse in action, and it results in the freaks and jackals seen in Soul Reaver. While Janos did also say he *devolved* in BO2, his circumstances in that incident were exceptional.

ZeroFernir
12th Oct 2013, 20:07
See, I always kind of figured that the drastic mutation of the vampires in Kain's empire had a lot to do with the state of the pillars and the world. All the vampires under Kain came into being after the pillars collapsed. This is clearly capable of adversely effecting the world at large, and given that the pillars were created by, and tied to, the Ancients, vampires going all wonky after they shatter wouldn't be surprising.

Of course, there's probably more to it than that. Because aside from the severely mutated forms, Kain's vampires differ from previous vampires in that they change to become like the rest of their clan, regardless of age. Fledgling vampires in SR1 look just as mutated as ancients. This isn't the case with previous vampires. Vorador mutated quite a bit over time, but none of the younger vampires he created inherited his physical traits (aside from normal vampire things, like fangs). The Ancients never appeared to mutate, but I chalk that up to them being the originals. The common mutations actually seem more like they are coming to resemble the ancients, with the talon hands and pointy ears and the like.

There's also the fact that Kain had a sort of non-conventional creation as a vampire. Granted, we don't really know much about how vampirism passes on to another person, but we do know that it usually involves something an actual vampire does. So far as I can tell, Mortanius just grabbed the Heart of Darkness and jammed it into Kain's chest.

The major difference I can tell with the Razielim and the other vampires in Kain's empire is that Raziel is all kinds of dead at this point. So if you were to point to a cause for their faster changing, I'd guess that's it. They sort of implied that this was connected in the live Q&A.

As for your mind link theory... I don't know, I didn't understand what you were talking about.

Did Vorador evolved slowly? the only images of him that I can remember is his human form, in a painting in defiance, i think, and his actual green form...

About the way Kain made the Lieutenants vampires, they received a part of his soul, bringing back their soul from... dunno, hell? but they had the curse of vampirism.


I am not sure what a mind link would be in this case. Kain's own soul portion, his essence, he breathed into the corpses of the Lieutenants and this portion of his soul acted as an achor to draw back their souls from the Underwolrd and curse them as vampires. It also passed the curse from Nupraptor that tainted Kain onto them, into their souls, via his own. I don't know what his mind link is you're suggesting, but this is the nature of how they were cursed, or how the curse passed onto them. His soul infected them like a virus. His body could handle it, but theirs could not. If you wish, his mind couldn't handle it as well, but Kain's body could, while his offspring succumbed in all ways -- mind, body, and soul.

So, Nupraptor's curse affected Mind, Body AND Soul, for sure? It was said anywere? Plus, it was PASSED to Kain's vampires? or they were just affected?

Vampmaster
12th Oct 2013, 20:38
The humans think it is a poison of the blood that makes us what we are. Fools, the blood only feeds the bodies we live in. To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the abyss to reanimate the corpse.


Although immortal, his soul could not sustain the flesh, which retained much of its previous human frailty.

Judging from this, it would make sense that if the soul is corrupt, that the body it's trying to maintain would also be corrupted. Even in the other Lieutenants when it's keeping the flesh from rotting like Melchiah's, it still doesn't seem to be able to maintain the body's humanoid form.

diuqSehT
14th Oct 2013, 19:32
So, Nupraptor's curse affected Mind, Body AND Soul, for sure? It affected the minds of the pillar guardians. And Kain's binding item to the pillars is his soul. So in HIS case, that's how it infected his soul for sure. Then the pillars were made foul by the foulness in the guardians. Then the pillars befouled the land.


See, I always kind of figured that the drastic mutation of the vampires in Kain's empire had a lot to do with the state of the pillars and the world.
Good point. And it's the same thing. Corruption hit them first, then infected their pillars thanks to the linking of everything, and then the pillars ruined the land because the sickened pillars were tied to the world's health. So the same corruption sends the world into decay and Kain's brood into decline. Their corrupted souls suffer the same fate as their corrupted world.


aside from the severely mutated forms, Kain's vampires differ from previous vampires in that they change to become like the rest of their clan, regardless of age. Yes. There's still a sire bond of some sort that drags the rest along as a pack when it's time to Evolve OR Devolve. They paint all their children with the same brush, an identical bond links all the fledglings they raise with the same contaminated DNA at the start, so they share in the fate of their lieutenant. A shared bus ride to hell. (Bad news for the Razielim.) Whereas Kain gave each lieutenant the chance to evolve differently with a gift of his soul & potential, the lieutenants' children are clones who aren't given that potential. They are still tied closer to the lieutenant's soul, a herd that follows his lead, as if the Lt. didn't really give them anything of their own but kept it all for himself and just washed the fledglings in his dirty soul upon birth until they changed. I don't know if Nosgoth is about to show us that every fledgling can turn humans, but I believe only the lieutenants should be able to turn new vampires. It should stop with them. (That's what makes them a big deal, and Raziel's slaying of them is an even bigger deal for mankind's future.)

Why only them? I think it was a special soul sacrifice for Kain when he birthed them, and Kain was never quite whole again until the most recent game's events. He was still stronger than his sons, but never at 100% during the empire. Which is an extra reason why it would worry him for real when Raziel took over the lead in the evolutionary race with Kain. ...But look at how many sons his lieutenants raised compared to Kain!!!! 1000's. As if they were recovering fully each time, like it wasn't a special soul sacrifice for them to turn new fledglings. It was easier to create these fledglings. Which means their creation process wasn't as complete, not as permanent. Which convinces me the clan fledglings are "sterile" and don't have the ability to do any more passing on of this soul splitting curse. They're the smallest atomic particles that this necro curse can split into. They weren't given the heavier permanent gift of Independent Existence that Big Poppa gave to the lieutenants. That's why the Lt's recover their soul energy completely after they birth these lessser copies. Because they're just making soul copies instead of soul donation).


Or, the option I offer: He would (d)evolve someway, but he had less of his corrupted soul then their sons, because he gave it to them in order to revive them.

He'd always keep the majority of his own soul. He'd have enough soul for devolution to find him and affect him. So it was some other reason that kept him from devolving. But what you said reminded me of LEACHING. People long ago would have their blood sucked out by leaches, and they thought this improved their health. I guess it's possible that Kain took the worst corrupted parts of his soul and gave them out to his sons! Like leaching his soul! This might then have prolonged the time he could go without devolving. (He could dip into spectral realm and fetch souls to shove back into their bodies, so why couldn't he look into his own soul and see which parts of it were most darkened by corruption, then scrape those sections out and slap that into Melchiah? The same way you can see Italian salad dressing separate into lighter and darker layers of liquid and spoon off the top layer). This might help your theory more than saying Kain had too little soul left to devolve.


I feel that though Kain's soul had been tainted by Nupraptor's curse, his vampiric state was kept free of corruption by use of Janos' heart. The same cannot be said for the vampires that he spawned. Interesting. He'd be entirely corrupted... which is why Ariel told him he needed to die..... but he had Janos' heart still holding out against the silly human mentalist attack, still trying to cleanse his body. Maybe its efforts slowed the corruption from driving his evolution backwards?


Blood Omen 2 makes it seem that creating vampires the tradional way is pretty strenous process and that Vorador is one of the few left that knows how. But as mentioned the creator hadn't really decided to on what exactly it might yet. They also added an entirely new "Batch" method of creating vampires in BO2. That's odd. This army-creation is different from the usual "blood gift" method of siring that was used to turn human Guardians. In my opinion this batch birthing is too similar to the necro clans of Kain's later empire. Other vampires besides VOrador could probably turn new vampires one by one just fine, it was just the army creation feat that Vorador alone could manage.



Now, my problem with it being just a mark of the body is that we've learned Vampirism isn't just a condition. To be a Vampire is also to be tied to an ancient, non-human race. The difference then, would have to come down to a spiritual level. Otherwise, why not leave them human? [B]If their souls remained untouched, the pillars would still have essentially Human Guardians whether touched by the Dark Gift or not. The basis of their spiritual connection with the pillars would still be non-Vampiric. The Dark Gift must, in some way, change the character of the soul, even when granted by the Ancients.

Yes Yes Yes! Thanks for putting it into words. There is something incomplete about that theory of yours, The Hylden, with the blood curse being body-only. The Janos-turned humans really have to become vampires at the core essence of what they are. They can't just be humans suffering a disease of the body. I think it's gotta be something like: the blood curse went in through the body to reach the soul, while Kain's necro curse went in through the soul to reach the body. With the end result of both being a complete change from human to vampire essence.

Not to be all neener-neener, because I love your efforts and your most recent breakthrough was awesome: (to paraphrase it) the thing about Raziel having true free will in Defiance (a walking-paradox who no longer needed two reavers to change things with every decision he made) and the reason we didn't see constant ripple changes from all his actions was because time had already been opened up into a state of long-term flux by then. (after the previous paradoxes turned Raziel loose on the world with his full potential intact for the first time). which is why EG and Moebius were time-blind enough to be surprised. (Love that!)


The curse wasn't designed to allow them to just pass on their lineage through Humanity. ...... it could be transferred to a Hylden now for all we know.
Yeah the ancients found a loophole by pushing against the sterility curse until they could cheat it and "reproduce" by spreading the disease instead of their seed. The disease was like a pitt bull with its teeth firmly clamped into their bodies and souls, so why not turn that to their advantage? Spread the disease and it'll carry your vampire nature with it into the new body. A perversion of the hyldens' intent. And yes it can now be spread to hyldens! Their banishment is probably the only thing saving the hylden species, in fact, from being made extinct by Borg-like vampire conversion!!!!!! (Some believe the Seer already is such a vampire/hylden hybrid, and wilder conspiracy theorists might say the entire reason hyldens waited so long to curse vampires is because the curse would have been a weapon of mutually assured destruction!!! It only became "safe" to use once the hylden were quarantined in the demon realm!)

ZeroFernir
15th Oct 2013, 01:20
It affected the minds of the pillar guardians. And Kain's binding item to the pillars is his soul. So in HIS case, that's how it infected his soul for sure. Then the pillars were made foul by the foulness in the guardians. Then the pillars befouled the land.

But the corruption didn't affect Moebius' hourglass, for an example, so your argument is like... Almost nonsense, I think.


He'd always keep the majority of his own soul. He'd have enough soul for devolution to find him and affect him. So it was some other reason that kept him from devolving. But what you said reminded me of LEACHING. People long ago would have their blood sucked out by leaches, and they thought this improved their health. I guess it's possible that Kain took the worst corrupted parts of his soul and gave them out to his sons! Like leaching his soul! This might then have prolonged the time he could go without devolving. (He could dip into spectral realm and fetch souls to shove back into their bodies, so why couldn't he look into his own soul and see which parts of it were most darkened by corruption, then scrape those sections out and slap that into Melchiah? The same way you can see Italian salad dressing separate into lighter and darker layers of liquid and spoon off the top layer). This might help your theory more than saying Kain had too little soul left to devolve.

I think he could not control it, so he could not choose which part of his soul was passed to the corpse nor to choose how much of his soul would be sent to his son.

RemovedQuasar
15th Oct 2013, 08:15
What do you think about Kain's disappearence? Since during the Soul Reaver era (when Raziel return) he didin't mutate like his sons supports the thesis that he jumped the time with a Moebius time machine.

ZeroFernir
23rd Oct 2013, 01:12
What do you think about Kain's disappearence? Since during the Soul Reaver era (when Raziel return) he didin't mutate like his sons supports the thesis that he jumped the time with a Moebius time machine.

He actually did it. That's why he is dissapeared by the time Nosgoth happens.

The_Hylden
23rd Oct 2013, 14:33
Now, my problem with it being just a mark of the body is that we've learned Vampirism isn't just a curse / gift / condition. To be a Vampire is also to be tied to an ancient, non-human race. If they were just fulfilling random roles, or rewards I'd be fine with the concept of them just having a blood-thirsty, undying body.

The problem comes in they needed to keep Vampire Guardians for the pillars.

We know from Mortanius and Moebius that the pillars grant, if not immortality, then really really long life. We know that the Ancient Vampires designed the pillars around their faith in the wheel (to take into account the cycle of life, death, and rebirth). So, it is likely not for the sake of the longevity of the Guardians that they would need to turn them.

I doubt having the Guardians literally hungry for blood is a reason to turn them either.

The difference then, would have to come down to a spiritual level. Otherwise, why not leave them human? If their souls remained untouched, the pillars would still have essentially Human Guardians whether touched by the Dark Gift or not. The basis of their spiritual connection with the pillars would still be non-Vampiric.

The Dark Gift must, in some way, change the character of the soul, even when granted by the Ancients.

Now, we can say that it doesn't affect the soul. That, even when the Ancients started turning new Human Vampire Guardians that their Guardianship was still blighted. That, from the moment the first Vampiric Guardian fell and a Human took its place the pillars were doomed to crumble.

It doesn't have to be spiritual at all. In fact, it might have to do with the vampires', as Janos stated, feelings on the competency of humanity. Kain points out in the Chronoplast chamber to Raziel that, as a man, he could never have contained the forbidden truths of the timestream he'd witnessed. If this is all linked, then perhaps the very change is mental (by way of physical), with the change possibly greatly increasing mental capacity. Janos turned Vorador first before they even attempted to change the Guardians. Perhaps they used Vorador as a test subject to see if the problems they felt with humanity's competency could have been rectified. Now, this could not even be the case, as I always did take Janos' claim of superior competency in his race to be probably his own bias, but then again, if he's meaning something literal, which even does not have to be mental -- perhaps it's just the physical competency... The Guardians are given unnatural long life by the Pillars, sure. However, they certainly aren't all fairing that well from it. Dejule comes to mind, as her body basically has transformed into corrosive, raw energy, that the cloak she wears must conceal at all times. Nupraptor's head swells to near bursting with his unchecked mental energy, and there are other examples. The point is that perhaps the body, without the curse added to fortify it, really isn't competent to handle all of the power flowing through it from the Pillars.

The thing about the Spiritual aspect, we don't see a connection to it in all of the Guardians, actually. The only one of them whose soul matters to the Pillars is the Balance Guardian. Their token item is their very soul and that must be returned to the Pillar. The rest of the Pillars cannot be restored from their corruption even with the Guardian for them slain. Only returning their physical items of power can do that. Moebius' hourglass; Bane's antler headdress, Malek's helmet -- etc.

I'm not saying that the Ancients weren't dabbling in soul magic, or that what you're suggesting by it isn't possible, either. Daniel Cabuco revealed that the Air Forge in SR2 was an example of the Ancients dabbling in such magic. We also see all of the thralls they charge with guarding these forges, or perhaps even the Statues later in the Citadel. So, this transference of their curse by way of blood could have also been transferring part of their soul essence. However, the distinction of Kain's necro vamps with their souls cursed and what we see of the vampires before them is a distinction that I think was definitely trying to show that before, the body held the curse (at least the broader amount of it), while the souls of the Kain's lineage held the curse afterward (again, at least the bulk of the curse).

diuqSehT
24th Oct 2013, 00:59
That's the best argument for the blood curse being a body-only infection: the way that the souls of slain blood curse vampires appear to behave like human souls that return to the wheel with no complaints from Elder, as far as we know. When they're slain, their souls don't hang around as vampire wraiths, and there's no vampiric quality still there to re-awaken the body because the soul has already fled, tearing away from the body as if vampirism was a prison it's now released from, saying "Whew, am I glad that long nightmare is over!"


I don't know if this counterpoint will be equal in quality to that, but it's what I'm going with right now:
when truly slain, the souls of necrovampires seem to be equally freed from the curse and ready to return to the wheel like human souls and bloodcurse souls do. Which means all curse varieties grab at both the body and soul, only differing in what they attach the curse to first and how tightly they then hold on before letting go. (more on that later). The point is that the result is the same for both the blood curse method and for turning necro vampires---they all reach an identical status of being truly vampires at the deepest metaphysical level. So how could they both achieve that result if one curse type only had surface access to the body while the other got to play a much deeper game with the very soul? They wouldn't. They wouldn't have the same effect. So for both curses to have the same effect they must both have access to all of you, mind and body and soul, as they change your species identity to "vampire". These curses differ only in how they handle injury and death, and in the palor of their skin. (the bodies of the bloodcursed are frozen in an immortal limbo state because they've partially left the living condition behind, which is why humans refer to even the bloodcurse vamps as "undead", etc. But their halfway-living tissue still relies on its current "health" to keep going. Whereas the necros are totally dead bodies animated from the soul within).

But when they're not dying or taking wounds, both types of vamps are the same core being--they've both taken on the identity of the cursed ancients so completely that any magical checkpoint would register them as that species, not human. (As mind guardian, their heads wouldn't expand ridiculously like Nupraptor's did, because that's an excellent example of how vampires can handle the pillar energies while humans can't quite contain it all. Humans have a conflict between their hardware and the pillar's software, which was made for vampires. So something super-human has transferred from the ancients into the bodies of turned vamps, and their newly acquired species identity is what allows them to handle the job and keep the barrier from degrading.)

The two methods of turning each strike through different points of entry (body or soul) and hit the target creature with a different intensity. Both methods reach body and soul, but the blood curse does so more shallowly and lasts only as long as the vampire "lives" (the curse-baked flesh merely colors or possesses the soul with vampirism during that time like a heating lamp's feverish red light colors the hamburger red but when the vampiric fever in the flesh fades upon death the heating lamp dims and the curse's influence dies off; one can then see that the soul, or hamburger, was grayish all along, i.e. a human soul now released from vampiric influence to join the wheel.) ......Meanwhile the necro method imprints vampirism more deeply and actually bonds the soul to the flesh and refuses to let it go, lasting for as long as the vampire remains "dead", infusing vampirism outward into the body so that their curse extends beyond slayings--an easy feat for them since they were dead already when they were turned, so why should death slow them down any now?

For both types of vampire their entire being gets cursed, including the soul. But for blood curse vamps it's the flesh that's the deciding factor, while for necros it's the soul. So when necros get "slain" in the flesh it doesn't matter so much as it does for the blood curse vamps whose flesh is still 1/2 living tissue they have to worry about keeping alive. For necros, only the total destruction of the body ends them by breaking apart the marraige of body and soul, and most mortals can't hurt necros that badly. But when Raziel did hurt them badly enough, their souls seemed cleared for the wheel, as if the souls weren't so much corrupted by vampirism as welded to the body vampiric. Once that package deal was broken up, the souls weren't toxic by themselves. It was only the souls of the lieutenants which carried something Elder wasn't eager to consume---the corrupted Kain soul fragments he left for Raziel to enjoy. The average necrovamp seems like he's merely a bloodcurse vamp with a stepped-up delivery method for the curse that hits more directly to the core of his being. Like when you give someone a shot of adrenaline straight to the heart.

TheIrtar
24th Oct 2013, 01:41
The thing about the Spiritual aspect, we don't see a connection to it in all of the Guardians, actually. The only one of them whose soul matters to the Pillars is the Balance Guardian. Their token item is their very soul and that must be returned to the Pillar. The rest of the Pillars cannot be restored from their corruption even with the Guardian for them slain. Only returning their physical items of power can do that. Moebius' hourglass; Bane's antler headdress, Malek's helmet -- etc.

Yes, but if it's entirely physical then Kain only had to return the token.

Sure, a few of which are fatal, but then what would have stopped him from say snatching Bane's headdress and just run off with the thing? Why is it that the Guardians are chosen by birth, and not just by having the token handed off to them? And why is the token absorbed by the pillar to heal it? Wouldn't the token be needed by the NEXT guardian if it was the heart of the power of the Guardians?

Before Defiance, I thought that it was that ALL the Guardians were bound by their souls, and that the tokens were simply a representative of their soul. Some way to summon it. BUT that got thrown out the window when Mobeius was revived by the Elder God. So, it obviously wasn't consumed by the Pillar. Unless, of course, the Pillars directly feed the Elder God which is... a possibility. (Something to discuss further perhaps in a different thread to not derail this further :P)

There has to be some spiritual element to Guardianship. Circle of life and death being vital to how it was designed, and as it was the moral cornerstone of the Vampiric Ideology. The soul of the Guardian had to be released to continue the cycle of life / death / rebirth, or that was heavily implied.

But, again Defiance, showed that the Vampiric Guardians' souls still lingered, which flies in the face of that.

So, in short, I don't think there's really any good answer at least in so far as how Guardianship works. BUT since life and death is important, and that it appears to be a mark of the soul, we know that the spiritual is very very important to the Guardians.

But, perhaps it is a physical thing but effects their capacity for magic. So far, we really know very little about magic in Nosgoth. It exists, and we know that the Ancients could weave some serious stuff. Heck, the Ancient Vampires made a magic seal that tapped into the very life of the ENTIRE WORLD. It is very heavily implied that both Hylden and Vampire could cast magics that made their human counterparts look like children. So, perhaps it simple expands their capacity for magic? We see Kain, by the end, going toe to toe with Guardians who have focused their entire lives on developing those skills. In New Eden, we see him take on two at once.

So, maybe the original Vampiric curse was physical, but in an arcane magical kind of way. And this could explain why none of Kain's vampires (so far) have shown any affinity for magic at all.

ZeroFernir
24th Oct 2013, 11:03
It doesn't have to be spiritual at all. In fact, it might have to do with the vampires', as Janos stated, feelings on the competency of humanity. Kain points out in the Chronoplast chamber to Raziel that, as a man, he could never have contained the forbidden truths of the timestream he'd witnessed. If this is all linked, then perhaps the very change is mental (by way of physical), with the change possibly greatly increasing mental capacity. Janos turned Vorador first before they even attempted to change the Guardians. Perhaps they used Vorador as a test subject to see if the problems they felt with humanity's competency could have been rectified. Now, this could not even be the case, as I always did take Janos' claim of superior competency in his race to be probably his own bias, but then again, if he's meaning something literal, which even does not have to be mental -- perhaps it's just the physical competency... The Guardians are given unnatural long life by the Pillars, sure. However, they certainly aren't all fairing that well from it. Dejule comes to mind, as her body basically has transformed into corrosive, raw energy, that the cloak she wears must conceal at all times. Nupraptor's head swells to near bursting with his unchecked mental energy, and there are other examples. The point is that perhaps the body, without the curse added to fortify it, really isn't competent to handle all of the power flowing through it from the Pillars.

The thing about the Spiritual aspect, we don't see a connection to it in all of the Guardians, actually. The only one of them whose soul matters to the Pillars is the Balance Guardian. Their token item is their very soul and that must be returned to the Pillar. The rest of the Pillars cannot be restored from their corruption even with the Guardian for them slain. Only returning their physical items of power can do that. Moebius' hourglass; Bane's antler headdress, Malek's helmet -- etc.

I'm not saying that the Ancients weren't dabbling in soul magic, or that what you're suggesting by it isn't possible, either. Daniel Cabuco revealed that the Air Forge in SR2 was an example of the Ancients dabbling in such magic. We also see all of the thralls they charge with guarding these forges, or perhaps even the Statues later in the Citadel. So, this transference of their curse by way of blood could have also been transferring part of their soul essence. However, the distinction of Kain's necro vamps with their souls cursed and what we see of the vampires before them is a distinction that I think was definitely trying to show that before, the body held the curse (at least the broader amount of it), while the souls of the Kain's lineage held the curse afterward (again, at least the bulk of the curse).

But if the tokens of the other guardians weren't corrupted, why would Kain's soul be?

The_Hylden
24th Oct 2013, 13:56
Nupraptor's madness was sent out as a mental shockwave corrupting the Guardians. His mind, not the Pillars, reached in and corrupted each of them. just thinking on it, these items must be returned to purify the Pillars and they are the conduit that each Guardian is able to use their respective Pillar's power, so it actually could be very possible that these items were also corrupted. If the Pillars were corrupted in sensing that their owners were corrupted in the mind, then the power conduit bestowed to each Guardian also becomes corrupted ... and for Kain, his very soul would then corrupt.

Indeed, Nupraptor's "item" was his very head, so that certainly was corrupted, also.


As for the aspect of the Guardian's souls being important -- what seems to be important to the Pillars is that the being it chooses is born anew, so if they're possibly looking at anything regarding a soul here, it's that the soul is freshly entered the word via a new body. What's unclear is if there's any further spiritual connection to the other Guardians. The Balance one definitely has a connection, since the soul is the token. But a connection in simply the power from the Pillar reaching out to it, or something else?


Granted again, there's no word on the actuality of how the Pillars work, as noted above we have little understanding how the magic of Nosgoth works, in general. My main point is that, actually. We don't know, and certainly can't say for certain, just how deeply spiritual the Pillars operate, or if spirit changes by vampires for human Guardians would be needed.






It is very heavily implied that both Hylden and Vampire could cast magics that made their human counterparts look like children.


Hm, what do you mean here?

TheIrtar
24th Oct 2013, 18:01
Hm, what do you mean here?

Vampires: Had magic to build the Pillars in the first place, which managed to tie all the life force of Nosgoth to it. That is some serious magics.

Hylden: Implied that they were nearly as powerful as the Vampires, and created the Vampiric Curse in the first place.

Humans: Can throw a bit of lightning.

They were always considered unimportant to the ancient races, and Janos speaks of them like he would speak of ignorant children. The Humans' Magnus Opus is either Meridian (whose magical components were designed by the Hylden) and Dark Eden (which was mostly made by the Pillar Guardians exploiting their connection with the Pillars, so could arguably be said to technically be vampiric magic repurposed).

All the Vampire ruins are heavy with magic. Nearly magical everything.

The Humans in BO, sans Pillar Guardians, seem to have very little magic. The Humans in SR1 have no magic. The only time we see a highly magical society with humanity is BO2s Hylden backed humanity. Heck, even the Guardians (which are arguably Humanities best Arcanists) got completely stomped by Vorador (with no Pillar bonuses) on his lonesome.

I'm not saying humans are incompetent. They build much better machines (as far as we've seen). But I think that is because they can't depend on magic like the Hylden and Vampires can / could.

The_Hylden
24th Oct 2013, 19:57
Ah, I thought you meant that the Ancients and Hylden both were seen casting actual spells making humans into children, lol

That would have been something to see.


Anyway, yes; the humans aren't as powerful physically, or magically, and implied even mentally, as the vampires, or the Hylden are. I would say that the Hylden's machinery is even far, far superior to anything the humans ever built, also, except maybe Moebius' Chronoplast (would be interesting to find out just how he came about building such a thing -- and his timestreaming devices added to this), or the construct of Dark Eden. The flying transports, cloning/stasis chambers, glyph-powered ray blasters (for lack of a better description), and that automated droid that fired at you like some sci fi AI hovercraft from the future ... all are pretty amazing technological spectacles. Not to mention the Hylden gate, or the Device attuned to the Mass that would have wiped out all of humanity and the vampires. Etc. The Forges and Citadel stuff by the Ancients are no slouches, either, as far as machinery goes. There stuff ranges from technological, to some degree, to pure magical (blood turning into bridged and steps, machines powered by fueling souls into semi-alive stone architecture...).

ZeroFernir
26th Oct 2013, 01:08
Nupraptor's madness was sent out as a mental shockwave corrupting the Guardians. His mind, not the Pillars, reached in and corrupted each of them. just thinking on it, these items must be returned to purify the Pillars and they are the conduit that each Guardian is able to use their respective Pillar's power, so it actually could be very possible that these items were also corrupted. If the Pillars were corrupted in sensing that their owners were corrupted in the mind, then the power conduit bestowed to each Guardian also becomes corrupted ... and for Kain, his very soul would then corrupt.

Indeed, Nupraptor's "item" was his very head, so that certainly was corrupted, also.


As for the aspect of the Guardian's souls being important -- what seems to be important to the Pillars is that the being it chooses is born anew, so if they're possibly looking at anything regarding a soul here, it's that the soul is freshly entered the word via a new body. What's unclear is if there's any further spiritual connection to the other Guardians. The Balance one definitely has a connection, since the soul is the token. But a connection in simply the power from the Pillar reaching out to it, or something else?


Granted again, there's no word on the actuality of how the Pillars work, as noted above we have little understanding how the magic of Nosgoth works, in general. My main point is that, actually. We don't know, and certainly can't say for certain, just how deeply spiritual the Pillars operate, or if spirit changes by vampires for human Guardians would be needed.

But how would you corrupt a head, an hourglass, an armor... And a soul?

The_Hylden
26th Oct 2013, 01:42
By way of magic. Nupraptor's mental blast is what corrupted the others' minds (and his brain was still within his skull, so certainly it should be still corrupted when returned to the Pillar), the Pillars corrupted, intern -- which are made of stone. They are also the originator of the very magic which allowed Nupraptor to misuse his telepathy in the first place. If they can corrupt, why would it be any different for any of the items used as the conduit for their power? If it's the same corrupted magic flowing through all items, and through Kain's soul, given that is his token, then all of them should be corrupted. Why else, also, would they need to be reabsorbed into the Pillars in order to heal the corruption? It's all connected by way of the same magic force.