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kevmac83
6th Oct 2013, 04:58
Just curious to see which class people are most interested in playing. I'm really interested to try the Razielim and see the flight attacks in action. On the human side the scout seems pretty cool. Watching someone get caught in one of your well laid traps would be badass. How about you guys?

Tube_Reaver
6th Oct 2013, 07:39
Well, I'm certainly thinking Razielim, as well, and am curious as to how the gameplay for the human side offsets the distinct Air Superiority of the vampire side, (unless their ranged weapons have 'eternal line of fire' sniping), or if, more likely, the Raz's have all the durability of a paper airplane.

Definite disadvantage for the humans who have to watch above *and* below, while the vampire side can use their Raz as birds-eye reconnaissance. Depending on the 'ceiling' of the arena, a Raz could, in theory, swoop behind the humans line and pincer them as the other Vamps charge in headlong.

Just thinking the tactical scenarios a one-side air dominance could play out is pretty interesting.

Maybe the Razielim can only fly for a certain duration, sort of like getting a jet-pack in first/third person shooter games? Or like playing a jet-pack trooper?

Vampshroom
6th Oct 2013, 08:35
sentinel seems op. but we havnt been able to play yet so idk xD

Rahabthesecond
6th Oct 2013, 08:58
Hm a little bit difficult....
On the vampire side: Dunahim but only a tiny little bit more than the Razielim.#
Don't like the look of the Turelim Tyrants to much at the moment, but that might change once I see more gamplay videos of them. At the moment they have more of an ogre than of a vampire to me and turellim without gigantic ears???

On the human Side:
Alchemist, let them burn!!!

But I'm sure I will try every class at least a few times.

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2013, 09:56
Don't like the look of the Turelim Tyrants to much at the moment, but that might change once I see more gamplay videos of them. At the moment they have more of an ogre than of a vampire to me and turellim without gigantic ears???

:lol: Hahahaha! The devs claimed the whole reason the ears were removed in the first place was because someone said they made the vampires look like orcs. I'm in total disagreement with them on that. The Turelim's ears need to be at least as big as Turels were in the SR1 intro.

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Turel?file=Defiance-BonusMaterial-ArcaneTomes-Raziel-10-2.png

kevmac83
6th Oct 2013, 17:32
:lol: Hahahaha! The devs claimed the whole reason the ears were removed in the first place was because someone said they made the vampires look like orcs. I'm in total disagreement with them on that. The Turelim's ears need to be at least as big as Turels were in the SR1 intro.

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Turel?file=Defiance-BonusMaterial-ArcaneTomes-Raziel-10-2.png

I think it would be a good idea if as your vampire gets "older" as you progress in the game your customization options expand in to things like the larger ears and cloven hands and feet. They could even do something similar with the human side and expand their options with some kind of rank system in their faction. They wouldn't have to affect gameplay and could just be cosmetic but it would be cool to evolve your vampire as he ages.

RainaAudron
6th Oct 2013, 17:41
Maybe the Razielim can only fly for a certain duration, sort of like getting a jet-pack in first/third person shooter games? Or like playing a jet-pack trooper?

Razielim can fly indefinitely, but they have to jump off the building in order to start flying so once you are on the ground you are stuck on it until you climb up. Aiming for prey from above is fun, but since the camera was too close, aiming was really hard... I missed a lot when trying to do the dive and grab move. From humans I think I like the scout with the bow.

Reidbynature
6th Oct 2013, 18:36
I think the Razielim are the most interesting on the vampires side for obvious reasons, but I'm also interested in seeing how the Dumahim handle since they seem pretty nimble.

As far as the humans go I think they all seem pretty interesting since their all a ranged class. I'd like to know how they handle against a team of vampires hunting them down and only have ranged combat to rely on.


I think it would be a good idea if as your vampire gets "older" as you progress in the game your customization options expand in to things like the larger ears and cloven hands and feet. They could even do something similar with the human side and expand their options with some kind of rank system in their faction. They wouldn't have to affect gameplay and could just be cosmetic but it would be cool to evolve your vampire as he ages.

That would be interesting. Though with certain hints that we may end up finding out how Dumah was staked to his throne I'd expect they'd have to start showing the devolved versions of the vampires at some point as clearly Dumah and his clan were clearly devolved at the time his stronghold was overrun and he was defeated. Otherwise it would be directly contradicting SR1.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 00:18
From the ones out now, I would like to play Razielim/dumahim, and for humans, the Ironguard.

Psyonix_Eric
7th Oct 2013, 02:21
Razielim can fly indefinitely, but they have to jump off the building in order to start flying so once you are on the ground you are stuck on it until you climb up. Aiming for prey from above is fun, but since the camera was too close, aiming was really hard... I missed a lot when trying to do the dive and grab move. From humans I think I like the scout with the bow.
I think some of it is a learned skill. I personally can't make it work either but some of the guys that play it regularly are amazing with it (unless you're a human, then they're a real jerk ;) ).

Personally I've always enjoyed the Alchemist on the human side and the Reaver on the vampire side. In the end we'd like it to be more about all classes being balanced, and thus personal preference, and not that four Sentinels can roflstomp a human team.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 02:37
I think some of it is a learned skill. I personally can't make it work either but some of the guys that play it regularly are amazing with it (unless you're a human, then they're a real jerk ;) ).

Personally I've always enjoyed the Alchemist on the human side and the Reaver on the vampire side. In the end we'd like it to be more about all classes being balanced, and thus personal preference, and not that four Sentinels can roflstomp a human team.

You and Raina talk as had already played the game... Alpha has started yet?

Psyonix_Eric
7th Oct 2013, 03:12
You and Raina talk as had already played the game... Alpha has started yet?
Raina was a part of the community day event. I am a part of the development team so I either play it or see it played every day.

Bazielim
7th Oct 2013, 03:14
You and Raina talk as had already played the game... Alpha has started yet?

Well, Eric is staff and Raina was at the community day a while ago, so they've both played it, but that doesn't necessarily say anything about how far development is along yet...;)

Personally (having been at the community day also) I'd throw my lot at the moment in with the Reavers/Dumahim or Tyrants/Turelim for Vampires; or the Hunters/Ironguard for humans, as I 'got' their movesets and abilities pretty quickly. As Eric mentions though, it has the feel as there are a lot of learned skills and things to master for different preferences and play styles -I'd particularly see the Razielim flight/dive-bomb as a learned skill that you'll get better at. Similarly the Scout's sniping and the Alchemist's hand cannon both rely on skills that feel like they would really 'click' given enough time to master. Different ways to play and yet a very nice rock/paper/scissors balance between teams and classes.:D

Edit: or Eric beat me to it... I'm doing too much dilly-dally on the typing these days:)

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 12:37
Raina was a part of the community day event. I am a part of the development team so I either play it or see it played every day.

Sad... I wanted to be there =(
So, Alpha has not started yet? do you have any ideas of when will it starts?

LordNekronom
7th Oct 2013, 12:46
Personally I want to try the Razielim and the Dumahim, from what I've seen in the trailer they have my type of playstyle, stealthy or with a great advantage in mobility, the Turelim I don't care for much as they just look out of place with the feral face and human ears it just ruins the immersion for me, at least the Razielim have wings, even though they have the ghastly 5 fingers and the dumahim aren't de/evolving so they can at least be fledgelings

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 13:02
Personally I want to try the Razielim and the Dumahim, from what I've seen in the trailer they have my type of playstyle, stealthy or with a great advantage in mobility, the Turelim I don't care for much as they just look out of place with the feral face and human ears it just ruins the immersion for me, at least the Razielim have wings, even though they have the ghastly 5 fingers and the dumahim aren't de/evolving so they can at least be fledgelings

I agree, the Turelim are so ugly =P and you choose you class just like me =P

Umbralim
7th Oct 2013, 16:18
I agree, the Turelim are so ugly =P and you choose you class just like me =P

personally I don't mind the ugliness, that's what I've always admired about LoK it doesn't feel the need to make every character a vison of perfection from Raziel beings an emaciated corpse/ghost to Nosferatu Kain having a carapace and not to mention all the horrible mutants. I especially like the Razielim look since they show the furthest signs of regression into monsters. both physically and mentally from their haunched stance and appearance. though I still wouldn't mind seeing, at least signs of their fingers fusing together into Cloved hands.

Vampmaster
7th Oct 2013, 17:11
I agree, the Turelim are so ugly =P and you choose you class just like me =P

Did you mean ugly as in they look like monsters or ugly as in not like a Turelim should look? To be honest, I'm not sure any of the vampires have any actual vampiric features aside from their mutations. Do they even have fangs?

EDIT: I'm not exaggerating, I just can't remember. Was this just an earlier version? http://www.nosgoth.com/blog_image/8/blog_large

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 17:42
Did you mean ugly as in they look like monsters or ugly as in not like a Turelim should look? To be honest, I'm not sure any of the vampires have any actual vampiric features aside from their mutations. Do they even have fangs?

EDIT: I'm not exaggerating, I just can't remember. Was this just an earlier version? http://www.nosgoth.com/blog_image/8/blog_large

Ugly from the Turelim basis. I hope at least the teeth they mantain from the previous LoK...

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 01:43
I agree, the Turelim are so ugly =P and you choose you class just like me =P

Great minds think alike, and old school gamers are great minds :D

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 01:52
Great minds think alike, and old school gamers are great minds :D

Surelly we are, lol =P

Psyonix_Corey
8th Oct 2013, 04:57
Just to add to what Eric said, the Sentinel (Razielim) is quite mobile but also quite vulnerable to skilled Human players.

Our best Sentinel players actually fly low to the ground when possible - they use structures for cover and sweep up behind their prey before lifting them off to their doom. In particular, if the human team has a good Scout or two, you have to be pretty careful with your approach or you'll get shot down.

We do offer him some other recon tools though to compensate. One of our players' favorite abilities of his is his "Echolocation" that allows him to detect the locations of enemy humans from far away. We can talk about that more when the Sentinel is featured in his own blog post :)

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 06:49
Just to add to what Eric said, the Sentinel (Razielim) is quite mobile but also quite vulnerable to skilled Human players.

Our best Sentinel players actually fly low to the ground when possible - they use structures for cover and sweep up behind their prey before lifting them off to their doom. In particular, if the human team has a good Scout or two, you have to be pretty careful with your approach or you'll get shot down.

We do offer him some other recon tools though to compensate. One of our players' favorite abilities of his is his "Echolocation" that allows him to detect the locations of enemy humans from far away. We can talk about that more when the Sentinel is featured in his own blog post :)

Just remember, the Turelim (Tyrants) are the ones who in Soul Reaver, evolve the huge ears that would be best for echolocation. In fact that ability becomes Turels own undoing when you face him in Defiance.

We might ask you to swap the echolocation over to the Tyrant class for the reason above, but if you say it works well for the Sentinals, maybe you could give them something equivilant and just explain it differently.

EDIT: BTW, I sent Eric a PM with a question about the Sentinals. Can you ask him to take a look at it?

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 12:05
Just to add to what Eric said, the Sentinel (Razielim) is quite mobile but also quite vulnerable to skilled Human players.

Our best Sentinel players actually fly low to the ground when possible - they use structures for cover and sweep up behind their prey before lifting them off to their doom. In particular, if the human team has a good Scout or two, you have to be pretty careful with your approach or you'll get shot down.

We do offer him some other recon tools though to compensate. One of our players' favorite abilities of his is his "Echolocation" that allows him to detect the locations of enemy humans from far away. We can talk about that more when the Sentinel is featured in his own blog post :)

So the Devolved stage of Raziel would actually be a bat, huh? (BTW, I agree with Vampmaster. This ability should be Turelim's... Maybe it would not be THAT usefull, but that would make sense... But we could get a huge-eared razielim too.)

Lord_Aevum
8th Oct 2013, 12:51
Yes, Turel literally has an ability named "Echolocate" in Defiance. That's what the sound wave power he uses against Raziel was officially called by that game's designers. Such an ability probably belongs with the Turelim.


Like all the vampire lieutenants, as the centuries passed Turel began to mutate and shift from his human form. Turel and his brood [...] became bat-like in appearance bearing large ears with incredible powers of hearing at the price of faltering vision.

He will send out a powerful wave of sound in a wide arc (Echolocate). These sounds bounce off any moving objects and create distortions that the blind monster can then pick up. Once something moving is pinpointed it will begin to glow with bright colors and the creature can then use its TK Acquire to hurl you across the room.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 12:57
Yes, Turel literally has an ability named "Echolocate" in Defiance. That's what the sound wave power he uses against Raziel was officially called by that game's designers. Such an ability probably belongs with the Turelim.

But that doesn't mean that Razielim can have it TOO.

GeorgeCST
8th Oct 2013, 13:01
Just remember, the Turelim (Tyrants) are the ones who in Soul Reaver, evolve the huge ears that would be best for echolocation. In fact that ability becomes Turels own undoing when you face him in Defiance.

We might ask you to swap the echolocation over to the Tyrant class for the reason above, but if you say it works well for the Sentinals, maybe you could give them something equivilant and just explain it differently.

EDIT: BTW, I sent Eric a PM with a question about the Sentinals. Can you ask him to take a look at it?

True, Turelim is more suited for the echolocation, maybe ... sense of smell that locates humans? ... but preferably not echolocation.

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 13:03
But that doesn't mean that Razielim can have it TOO.

Like I said, just explain it in a different way and use a different visual effect. Maybe the Razielim could sense enemies thoughts or souls or something.

EDIT: Sorry, GeorgeCST. I didn't see your post while I was typing.

lucinvampire
8th Oct 2013, 13:05
I’ll probably be sticking to the Hunter and Dumahim…though I can’t wait to try out the Alchemist :D

Lord_Aevum
8th Oct 2013, 13:10
But that doesn't mean that Razielim can have it TOO.

I am not suggesting otherwise, especially since Razielim have also been associated with bats all along. However, if it's Razielim only, we arrive back at the idea that some of the fundamental characteristics of the Turelim may have been overlooked.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 13:45
Like I said, just explain it in a different way and use a different visual effect. Maybe the Razielim could sense enemies thoughts or souls or something.

EDIT: Sorry, GeorgeCST. I didn't see your post while I was typing.

Yeah, surelly... But I think that is strange to a bat use other mode of locating... But as you said, it may be something linked to the spectral realm.

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 15:00
Yeah, but no one said the Razielim were turning into actual bats, just bat-like creatures. The other clans didn't become exactly like any real life creature, they just got close enough be be described that way.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 15:40
Yeah, but no one said the Razielim were turning into actual bats, just bat-like creatures. The other clans didn't become exactly like any real life creature, they just got close enough be be described that way.

Well, we assume that, because there IS already that sound ability. Plus, why do the vampires tranformed into that things? They transformed into things they use to appreciate, or it was complete random?

Umbralim
8th Oct 2013, 16:05
My guess is it was based partially on their personalities and the amount of soul they received from kain, Rahab for instance was described as maladjusted when he was on the council and as such he evolved an extreme weakness to sunlight while at the same time evolving the ability to survive underwater something no other vampires could do and as such he and his children were probably very segregated from the other clans and unable to properly interact with them at least not to the extent that would be described as normal.

but that being said as many creatures have forms of echolocation its entirely possible that turel and raziel being the 1st and 2nd born would evolve around similar traits also Turels final form was more dog than bat. so there is that to consider.

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 17:13
Well, we assume that, because there IS already that sound ability. Plus, why do the vampires tranformed into that things? They transformed into things they use to appreciate, or it was complete random?

Maybe it had something to do with how Kain perceived their personalities. They were devolving because Nupraptor corrupted Kain's mind, so maybe he was subconsciously projecting onto them or something.

EDIT: Maybe some combination of that and what Daniel Cabuco said about them intentionally building up certain skills.

lucinvampire
8th Oct 2013, 17:34
Yes, Turel literally has an ability named "Echolocate" in Defiance. That's what the sound wave power he uses against Raziel was officially called by that game's designers. Such an ability probably belongs with the Turelim.

Should really read properly...I read Echocolate at first glance - which would be a pretty awesome power too! I personally don't they should share abilities between classes too much - think yeah the generic stuff but the more advanced stuff should be set per clan.


Hm a little bit difficult....
On the vampire side: Dunahim but only a tiny little bit more than the Razielim.#
Don't like the look of the Turelim Tyrants to much at the moment, but that might change once I see more gamplay videos of them. At the moment they have more of an ogre than of a vampire to me and turellim without gigantic ears???

Funnily enough I showed the trailer to a friend and he said they looked like orcs rather than vampires...he put it down the build and hair mainly...said they should make them more vampiric. Funny that they said the extended ears would make them so...too late haha!

Poor Turelim he is pretty slow but bloody powerful - the poor guy needs a hug :D

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 17:48
Maybe it had something to do with how Kain perceived their personalities. They were devolving because Nupraptor corrupted Kain's mind, so maybe he was subconsciously projecting onto them or something.

EDIT: Maybe some combination of that and what Daniel Cabuco said about them intentionally building up certain skills.

but that is just theory, right? Nothing concrete yet?

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 18:02
Yeah, that's just my own theory. Nothing's been revealed in the games.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 18:06
Yeah, that's just my own theory. Nothing's been revealed in the games.

Well, then... Maybe Nosgoth could explain it? By somehow the vampires of a certain clan discovering why where them becoming monstersw

Lord_Aevum
8th Oct 2013, 18:29
Well, we assume that, because there IS already that sound ability. Plus, why do the vampires tranformed into that things? They transformed into things they use to appreciate, or it was complete random?

DCab has said essentially yes, vampire evolution is directly influenced by an individual's personality, especially in the deviantART comments on Zephon (http://spectraljin.deviantart.com/art/Zephon-320230090). "It's an appropriate reflection of your soul."

Dumah was on track to devolve into a rhinoceros-like monster (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21#p21) over time, by the way, not a lizardman as some have speculated. Makes lots of sense when you take another look at his clan symbol!

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 18:36
DCab has said essentially yes, vampire evolution is directly influenced by an individual's personality, especially in the deviantART comments on Zephon (http://spectraljin.deviantart.com/art/Zephon-320230090). "It's an appropriate reflection of your soul."

Dumah was on track to devolve into a rhinoceros-like monster (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21#p21) over time, by the way, not a lizardman as some have speculated. Makes lots of sense when you take another look at his clan symbol!

I can't see a rhino there =P anyway, I always though Raziel would become a dragon, actually.

Vampmaster
8th Oct 2013, 20:26
DCab has said essentially yes, vampire evolution is directly influenced by an individual's personality, especially in the deviantART comments on Zephon (http://spectraljin.deviantart.com/art/Zephon-320230090). "It's an appropriate reflection of your soul."

Dumah was on track to devolve into a rhinoceros-like monster (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21#p21) over time, by the way, not a lizardman as some have speculated. Makes lots of sense when you take another look at his clan symbol!

There's no physical connection between a persons (or even an animals) appearance and personality. It takes a person's interpretation to decide "that's how a spider would act" or "that's a rhino-like thing to do". That's why I was suggesting that Kain's corrupted mind sees what their soul is like and projects that onto them as a physical form.

It could also be that the vampire chooses their habitat according to their personality and their body simply adapts to that. Zephon hides and sets traps and his body naturally evolves traits appropriate to his lifestyle.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 21:31
There's no physical connection between a persons (or even an animals) appearance and personality. It takes a person's interpretation to decide "that's how a spider would act" or "that's a rhino-like thing to do". That's why I was suggesting that Kain's corrupted mind sees what their soul is like and projects that onto them as a physical form.

It could also be that the vampire chooses their habitat according to their personality and their body simply adapts to that. Zephon hides and sets traps and his body naturally evolves traits appropriate to his lifestyle.

I think that probably this two are liked. Because of that acts, Kain started thinking about their souls, and this affected it's (d)evolving.