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View Full Version : My thoughts on Nosgoth as a long time Legacy of Kain fan



Crainy
6th Oct 2013, 01:38
Hi, Im Crainy and I just feel like I should express myself, as a long time Legacy of Kain fan, what I think about this new "Nosgoth" project.

First of all, Legacy of Kain was always one of my most favorite things and it had a noticable impact on my life. Im not one of the really oldschool guys that played Blood Omen when they were 9, instead, I was like 6 when Soul Reaver came out and I loved it right away. Back then, I liked it for how great its art style was and how brutal it was (for the time).

As I grew older, however, and played the other Legacy of Kain games, I learned to appreciate the true heart of what makes Legacy of Kain what it is. By the end of Defiance, I was overwhelmed by the series intricate, beautifull and downright peotic plotline, its amazing characters, intruiging themes and the overall Shakespeare worthy writing, both in terms of story and dialog. The dialog, I think, deserves a special mention, as it displays just such a mastery of the english language and never ceases to amaze me. As of now, I considere the Legacy of Kain series to be one of the best written pieces of art in the history of mankind - no exaggeration.

I also felt that Defiance was a worthy conclusion for the series and unlike others, I dont considere Defiance to have an open ending, but I think its an ending that suits the nature of LOK very well indeed. However, I cant deny that I always wanted another LOK game, regardless.

Now, lets get to Nosgoth. When it was first announced, It didnt take me as much off guard as it might have, seeing how there were rumors beforehand that the next LOK would be some sort of online game. I was like "well, thats... a weird choice?".

What took me off guard, however, was the trailer. When I watched it for the first time, I honestly felt like I was about to cry, I was literally teary eyed. It stung. I really didnt expect this to hit me as hard as it did - the first footage of a LOK game in a decade and here are these guys trying to explain to me how awesome a flamethrower and grenade launcher is. A generic MOBA. Watching that announcement trailer was literally painfull.

However, Im not quite sure why this stung so hard. Honestly, I wouldnt be so much opposed to the idea of Nosgoth, and Im not that much opposed to it really, however, what really hits me about it seems to be that at what sacrifice we are receiving this game.

For those of you who dont know, Nosgoth is the child of a larger, single-player LOK game called "Dead Sun" that was planned and in development, nearly finished, and than scrapped. As far as our knowledge goes, Nosgoth was build on the remains of that game. What exactly happened is explained in detail in this article, its a very interesting read:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=594576

My point? I dont have a point. I just wanted to express my disappointment. What Im thankfull for is that they didnt call it "Legacy of Kain: Nosgoth", but only "Nosgoth", implying that this is in fact, not part of the legacy of Kain, but only a game set in the same universe.

Well, finally, Im not really critizing Nosgoth as a game: Im sure it will be alright, it might even be really good, who knows, however, it pains me to see that a single-player LOK game was scrapped and what we get is this. Im sure it sucks as much for the developers as it sucks for us and seeing them trying to market Nosgoth as like the greatest, most original thing ever, while its just a MOBA, is definately a painfull thing to look at - hell, its probably the most painfull thing about that trailer.

My hope is that Nosgoth will be successfull and will raise awareness of the LOK brand and then we might finally get the next single-player LOK game we always wanted.

Umbralim
6th Oct 2013, 02:02
I understand where your coming from but as another long time fan, I'm really excited about nosgoth as i see room for great expansion in the multiplayer setting, most people don't seem to be giving MP any credit for how much evolved since the days of blood gulch. and as for dead sun frankly that things cancellation was perhaps the best thing that happened to LoK in my opinion. no disrespect to the devs I know they worked hard but that things story was not even connected to LoK, at All. This at least has powerful premise and not to mention i really hated the new pretty boy main character they wanted us to play,

.... i mean seriously cmon you guys couldn't of at least gouged and eye out or something.

http://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/3/3e/DeadSun-Character-GeinAsher-02-Monkeythumbz.jpg

Reidbynature
6th Oct 2013, 03:31
I have more problems with Dead Sun and it's main character more than just his looks, but I do have some issues with his looks as well.

As far as his looks go I think if you're going to have vampires back then they should look like the ancient vampires imo. They should have the blue skin tone of Janos and the three digit hands, not this very dark blue/almost ashen look with five fingers. I'm not a fan of the tribal scarring or war paint either. Not to mention the odd shoulder straps, trousers but no shirt look. I think the whole thing just looks a bit silly. If you're going to bring vampires back then you should look back to Janos & the ancient vampires depictions as well as Kain, pre-fallen Raziel and his brothers for inspiration.

From what I've read of the proposed story it just seems like this guy was destined to be a convoluted stand in for Raziel to give us the ability to shift between material and spectral realms again. I wasn't digging the vampire/human in one body angle. Again, a bit too silly.

Umbralim
6th Oct 2013, 05:17
yes I agree with all that completley plus it doesn't make any sense its supposed to take place milennia after SE1 which means vampires should of devolved into unspeakable monstorsities not into vamp/wraith hybrids.

Therealrabban
6th Oct 2013, 06:12
I feel there are 2 ways of dealing with a continuation of LOK storyline. Start the game off with all the burning questions and resolutions solved in the first act of the game, allowing fresh new ideas without sacrificing fan speculation. Or Starting a completely new storyline. Both storytelling mechanics would allow breathing room to tell something new, but both would have to address...

1. Defeating the elder god.
2. Resurrecting Vorador.
3. Placing the Soulreaver back in Avernus for young Kain to pick up.
(bonus points for forcing the Elder Kain to fight his younger self, and lose. In a Q&A we are informed that it was not the elder kain in bo1 but some sort of incantation but still)

Or, you start your new character up where he has to find out about the ancient history of Nosgoth in order to solve it's current problem, perhaps he even has to go back in time or visit the Chromoplast to view it. Would it not be awesome to start the next Legacy of Kain with the pillars already fixed and a new Circle of Nine returned to power? A long time fan would think "Oh wow Kain did it!!! he really did it!!" and then learn throughout the story what he had to do after the fact..."WITHOUT MURALS OR TEXT ON SCREEN!" but actual gameplay and/or cinematics?

RainaAudron
6th Oct 2013, 10:35
3. Placing the Soulreaver back in Avernus for young Kain to pick up.
(bonus points for forcing the Elder Kain to fight his younger self, and lose. In a Q&A we are informed that it was not the elder kain in bo1 but some sort of incantation but still)

Hm, I think the blade does not go to Avernus, but to Moebius, Daniel said Kain would have left it at the Pillars in the past.

As far as the new game - I think a game from Ancients/Hylden war might be good.. like taking place right before the war or something - it would give a nice backstory I think. Or a game with Vorador as main character.

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2013, 11:08
There's lots of characters I'd like to play as, such as Pre-abyss Raziel, Vorador, Mortanius, Turel and probably others. I had some theories ages ago about the first balance guardian realising what the EG really was and setting things in motion for Raziel to obtain the Spirit Reaver. It always bugged me that the EG would allow the creation of weapons that could be used against him.

Perhaps it would go something like; After the blood curse, the EG realised he would never be able to get the souls of the ancients or the hylden and demanded that the balance guardian should wipe out his own race. The balance guardian is made an agent of the EG and thus gets free will. Then he defies the EG, orders the creation of Forges and make a deal with the Seer to spare her from the demon dimension and sets Kain and Raziel's destiny in motion. He would ultimately have to be defeated for any of the other games to make sense, though.

EDIT: But, you know... Square one. No previous history required.

Lord_Aevum
6th Oct 2013, 12:19
Crainy, as another individual who first played Soul Reaver at the age of 6 and literally grew up with this series, I really empathise with you in every respect. I'm also not eager to proclaim it a fabulous thing that Dead Sun has been cancelled – people may despise the story concept or what little else is known about that game, but I would bet my right arm that that's not the reason why it was scrapped, since it was already tailored prostrating itself before the general audience, tuned to wring the highest entry sales possible out of the LoK name. If it couldn't succeed, I'm not so sure a more Kain-centric AAA title would get much further anytime soon.

I've come to the conclusion that as long as people in Square Enix continue to claim that they are interested in creating a genuine LoK 6, the most worthy course of action is to at least try and help this repurposed multiplayer spinoff be the best repurposed multiplayer spinoff it's able to be. Yes, this fanbase has already been messed around so much, in ways no other long-term Eidos enthusiasts have, to the point that it sometimes feels like being victim to a social experiment or a very elaborate practical joke, but Defiance finished with the ultimate message of hope, and it only seems appropriate to perpetuate that motif, in the most dignified and constructive way, until we receive what we're really looking for.

Vanyelxp5
6th Oct 2013, 14:22
While I can't say I played Soul reaver when I was 6... We barely had the Super Nintendo back then... I've been a fan since I first picked up a copy of Blood Omen. But when I found Soul Reaver... That was the moment when I knew that I'd buy every game this franchise could give me.

Defiance ended on a major cliffhanger. The Elder God is still around, and present in other areas (All other areas if you believe what the creepy tentacled one says.) Kain has the power to hurt him, but not kill him (yet) The balance guardian has been purified, but needs to return to his own time before any changes can happen. New guardians for the other pillars will now be born in that future time, but unless Kain tracks them down, they will likely grow up ignorant of their destiny.

The next logical step for Kain is to return to the future and set about restoring the world. It is not likely to be an easy task given the fact that every human in Nosgoth has reason to fear and hate him.

ParadoxicalOmen
6th Oct 2013, 17:02
This game isn't what i had expected...
Although I am not opposed to a multiplayer experience, it is sad that the lore and story wont be greatly developed in this type of game. The Q&A video already confirmed no cutscenes, and it will be action focused. Although they teased that we would get some answers.

Most of us here are in love with the series due to the great storyline and universe it is settled in. That is why we didn't mind the gameplay loss in titles after SR1, and why BO2 is the least liked of the games.
In my opinion:

•BO - great story, great gameplay
(perfect)
•SR1 - great story, great gameplay
(perfect)
•SR2 - great story, normal and linear gameplay
(as a game it wasn't much fun to play, most of magical elements were excluded and became a linear game. Story was as wonderful as ever though)
•BO2 - bad story, good yet linear gameplay
(good game in terms of gameplay, cleary based on SR1 gameplay elements with puzzle bosses and return of magical abilities, although still linear. What killed it, in my opinion, was the poor story)
•Defiance - great story, normal and linear gameplay
(Wonderful story as always, but the gameplay wasn't to my liking. They did same thing as with SR2, except they developed the melee fighting system and restricted you to only use the reaver.)


Nosgoth will seem to be a fun game to play. As for story, i can't imagine getting anything really significant...which is ok, since it is not a single-player game and thus not it's focus.
We will probably get minor, yet fun and interesting, answers...like 'how exactly did the Dumahim fall?', 'where did the Razielim go in the end of the war?' (did they all die, or did they relocate to unreachable place where they could be safe), 'is the Human Citadel in SR1 the last human retreat?' (did the vampire wipe out all others?).
The devs seem to have done their homework, and won't create any inconsistencies in the storyline. So that much leaves me calm.

My worry is that this game might become repetitive after a while.

blueobelix
6th Oct 2013, 17:23
My worry is that this game might become repetitive after a while.
Acually i'm really sure it will be repetitive, since we are thinking about a multiplayer game [if
you were reffering stricktly to Nosgoth and not to a LoK sequel].
Still I really don't understand why they did this since they had the occasion to do such a wonderful sequel, or any other kind of single-player game LoK based.
a HD remake was sufficient and not so money wasting, and a success IMO.
The Elder God and the Hylden story remains a mistery unsolved and even 2OTHER GAMES could be used for the single one of them, one for the Hylden, purifying the land from them, restoring Janos to the original form and one fighting the EG with his new help Janos. A sidekick Janos [see PoP 2008] could be another idea for the LoK sequel.

Reidbynature
6th Oct 2013, 17:29
yes I agree with all that completley plus it doesn't make any sense its supposed to take place milennia after SE1 which means vampires should of devolved into unspeakable monstorsities not into vamp/wraith hybrids.

I don't know about devolved. I don't think these vampires are meant to be the same vampires from Kain's empire. I assumed they were supposed to be the restoration of sorts of the vampire ancients.


There's lots of characters I'd like to play as, such as Pre-abyss Raziel, Vorador, Mortanius, Turel and probably others.

Agreed. I'd love a game where you play as pre-fallen Raziel or even Sarafan Raziel would be great. Turel as well since apparently he's still present during SR1, but was missed by Raziel. It would interesting to play as that version of Turel imo.

Therealrabban
6th Oct 2013, 19:52
It sounds like a nice offshoot to look at vorador's life and even the hylden wars but seriously...there is an incomplete story here.

LordNekronom
7th Oct 2013, 12:58
It would be nice to actually wrap up the lore of the main LoK series, and I don't have a problem with the main char in Dead Sun looking like a pretty boy both young kain and vampire Raziel were of a dark beauty, and I like the idea of Saradin being soul devouring vamps, but I do however have a major problem with his 5 fingers and war paint, the war paint look out of place, he looks like Hidan from Naruto or a witch doctor, and the trend to make LoK for a wider audience by making the vamps look more common ( 5 fingers ) and human like ( the char had the body of a vampire possessed by a human soul ) is a stupid trend in gaming and media in general, the same way as they remade dante in DMC 5 to look more western and we got a damned justin bieber as a main char. They remade Dracula in Castlevania Lords of Shadow, but he still looked like he belonged there. If there is one thing that is clear is that you can't please anybody, if they want to make a new game and reboot the series completely that's fine, they can do what they please, if they claim that they have airtight lore and are linked to the other LoK games, then don't bend the lore out of shape to make it please a wider crowd, just like a rubber band, you can bend it just to the breaking point without it breaking, but it won't go back to the way it was and it won't work well anymore.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 13:06
It would be nice to actually wrap up the lore of the main LoK series, and I don't have a problem with the main char in Dead Sun looking like a pretty boy both young kain and vampire Raziel were of a dark beauty, and I like the idea of Saradin being soul devouring vamps, but I do however have a major problem with his 5 fingers and war paint, the war paint look out of place, he looks like Hidan from Naruto or a witch doctor, and the trend to make LoK for a wider audience by making the vamps look more common ( 5 fingers ) and human like ( the char had the body of a vampire possessed by a human soul ) is a stupid trend in gaming and media in general, the same way as they remade dante in DMC 5 to look more western and we got a damned justin bieber as a main char. They remade Dracula in Castlevania Lords of Shadow, but he still looked like he belonged there. If there is one thing that is clear is that you can't please anybody, if they want to make a new game and reboot the series completely that's fine, they can do what they please, if they claim that they have airtight lore and are linked to the other LoK games, then don't bend the lore out of shape to make it please a wider crowd, just like a rubber band, you can bend it just to the breaking point without it breaking, but it won't go back to the way it was and it won't work well anymore.

I agree. This new vampire looks really look out of place, considering Nosgoth. The "Most appealling" is no excuse: some friends of mine, after shown the 3-claws vampires, said they would prefer them, keeping a lore that they don't even know, then the normal 5 fingers. the 3-claws are appealing to the new public too!

Therealrabban
7th Oct 2013, 20:05
Yeah but that's because 3 fingers/claws is so familiar, it's probably a trope. tmnt etc.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 20:36
Yeah but that's because 3 fingers/claws is so familiar, it's probably a trope. tmnt etc.

I dunno why, but they do like the 3-claws vampires.

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 01:40
I dunno why, but they do like the 3-claws vampires.

Give the people what they want, and make all of us happy, such a rare thing to be able to please both new and old fans of a franchise, it would be a shame if they stuck with the 5 fingers nobody likes, hipsters stink, gamers are not hipsters, we like what we like, why else do we still play mario even on brand new consoles, or keep a visual boy emulator for pokemon even though we have a badass computer that could run any game, if it's not broke don't fix it, if it's a fan favorite, don't change it.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 01:54
Give the people what they want, and make all of us happy, such a rare thing to be able to please both new and old fans of a franchise, it would be a shame if they stuck with the 5 fingers nobody likes, hipsters stink, gamers are not hipsters, we like what we like, why else do we still play mario even on brand new consoles, or keep a visual boy emulator for pokemon even though we have a badass computer that could run any game, if it's not broke don't fix it, if it's a fan favorite, don't change it.

Lol, yesterday I saw a guy playing mario on an emulator. In a ps2. In a ps2 emulator for PC hue hue!

AlterRequiem
8th Oct 2013, 02:05
Lol, yesterday I saw a guy playing mario on an emulator. In a ps2. In a ps2 emulator for PC hue hue!
wat?

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 02:16
wat?

Yeah! =P just illustrating that us, gamers, when we want something, we get it. AT ALL COSTS =P kkkkkkkkkkk


P.S.: I heard some devs took death threats. That is SURELLY not the case.

Bazielim
8th Oct 2013, 16:15
P.S.: I heard some devs took death threats. That is SURELLY not the case.

Unfortunately it definitely was the case... and it wasn't just devs that got that treatment. I got net-stalked, targeted by sock-puppets, insulted, threatened and spammed for simply playing the game, (and looking into the lore etc) and deciding it was quite good.... and this isn't an isolated incident by any means, it happens all the time on public forums - people can cross the decency line very easily on the internet (and then usually they'll claim they're being punished for simple criticism rather than the inflammatory language and such which is the real reason). I'm not quite sure how you've missed it, but it's perhaps a tribute to the mods and their efforts (and the shock of the thing wearing off as people looked into it) that we're back to the usual constructive forum. :)

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 17:58
Unfortunately it definitely was the case... and it wasn't just devs that got that treatment. I got net-stalked, targeted by sock-puppets, insulted, threatened and spammed for simply playing the game, (and looking into the lore etc) and deciding it was quite good.... and this isn't an isolated incident by any means, it happens all the time on public forums - people can cross the decency line very easily on the internet (and then usually they'll claim they're being punished for simple criticism rather than the inflammatory language and such which is the real reason). I'm not quite sure how you've missed it, but it's perhaps a tribute to the mods and their efforts (and the shock of the thing wearing off as people looked into it) that we're back to the usual constructive forum. :)

I think you didn't got me. I was saying that my post wasn't any threat or anything. I am not doubting that devs took even death threats. At all. I saw already how the people argue with them in other forums.

LOKDOA
21st Jun 2014, 07:06
I honestly think this "Kain of Duty" multiplayer idea is a step in the wrong direction for this franchise. Seriously, what were they thinking when they came up with this idea? Nosgoth as a game is going to fail, not just because most Kain fans like myself won't want to touch it but because it's yet another mindless multiplayer making a feeble attempt to try and be as successful as Call of Duty. This is honestly the worst idea ever, Legacy of Kain is a rich story driven single player experience and for Square Enix to do this is a disrespectful slap in the face to Kain fans everywhere. I don't know, maybe this series intimidates Square Enix because it's too smart for them and dumbing it down with mindless multiplayer is their only way of dealing with it. Square Enix, I am disgusted with how severely you've disrespected the Kain franchise with this travesty and I'll never buy another product you make until you treat Legacy of Kain properly. What you're doing is not the way to bring back a long dormant series, what you're doing is wrong and this game will fail. Honestly, and this is not an insult. Try listening to the fans, you might very well learn something.

CountEyokir
21st Jun 2014, 07:29
I think its safe to assume that should Nosgoth be successful and it spawns something later that looks like - Nosgoth 2 - and there is not so much as a peep from any developer about a proper continuation to the series ---yes we would have problems. MAJOR problems - because that would mean LoK was revived as a warped parody of its former self and we'd never ever see a complex story again. We paid too high a price to revive the franchise.

I am happy that Dead Sun went down to tubes. To those who think the concept had any worth...um... you're wrong. You're simply wrong. Believe me - had Dead Sun been pushed out there -he entire franchise fandom would have risen up as one and slayed Square Enix. Trust me on that. Nosgoth reuses Dead sun in about 90% of its stuff but believe me I am happier to have those peices in this game then Dead Sun.

Am I happy with Nosgoth? um.....well no obviously if someone said "we're making an SP title with Kain in it" I'd drop Nosgoth like a hot potato and never look back but just by itself its not the worst thing you could do with the franchise although obviously for a LOT of people its not going to tasteful - because it doesn't have the core of what made the game series what it was and should be

Bazielim
21st Jun 2014, 09:44
Constructive. We'd all love a new story based LoK, but it's time to join in or move on now. Nosgoth simply isn't the travesty you claim because you dislike the genre - it's an expansion of the world and the universe into uncharted territory. I've never seen devs go to such lengths to revive and get right a long dormant franchise and to listen to their fans. You have to understand Nosgoth is not standing opposite CoD, it's doing something very different.

Despite your claims, it's very likely Nosgoth will be a success - you just have to choose whether to be involved in that or not - it's already doing well on the business side and it's inducted a tonne of new fans to the world (and let's be brutally honest fan numbers and gameplay were where the old games were falling down) - there are now people who had never heard of LoK digging into the lore and playing the old games because of Nosgoth and conversely there are those who've never played or liked multiplayers who are now getting into those because of it.

Believe me, they know of the story etc concerns of Kain fans... and yes Dead Sun perhaps wasn't the best course of action, but you can't blame them for picking up the pieces that did work (and boy do they work) and doing something inventive and fun with them. No, we're not getting a SP story game yet but Nosgoth is the ticket - were it to somehow miraculously turn a corner backwards and be considered a failure then it'd kill the franchise completely not get you the sp. There is a desire to get it done, you just have to show support. In future I'd expect there to be a new SP at some point in future (and no doubt people complaining about that) and personally I wouldn't be adverse to Nosgoth 2 as well - but it's not even out of beta- it's a fledgling - that kind of talk is years away. Just be patient and if you really don't want to join your brethren in game, then just wait it out.

Funkmaster_Rick
21st Jun 2014, 17:43
I've played a lot of video games in my time.

I started with with Duck Hunt/Super Mario Bros. cartridge on the old NES, or Famicom as some people still know it. The Legend of Zelda series was a front-runner in my childhood memories. I can still recall making hard decisions in Baldur's Gate, falling in love with the great characters and fantastic, lively writing. Hell, I still play Allegiance, a game from Microsoft Research that came out back in 2000, died off, was revived when the community convinced them to release the source code, and now still has something like a hundred active players. I can still remember being ten years old and nearly crying when I had to make Cloud kill Aeris (or Aerith, as some know her). I've been around the block, I've seen a lot of games, I'm a gamer through-and-through. I've played single-player, I've played multiplayer, I've played a couple of games that even try to mix those two up into something new, though often to poor effect.

This game is good.

It's not the rich story and compelling dialogue LoK fans want. Yeah, sure, that's a pisser for a lot of people. But, jeeze, look at what the company's done for you anyway?

They added skins for the vampires more in line with the older art direction that LoK took. Sure, you have to hit rank 25, but you don't even have to spend money on them.

Free-to-play gaming is a genre filled with corruption, greed, and blatant dishonesty. League of Legends got BIG because it was an accessible, free alternative to DotA before DotA 2 was released - a lot of talented, skilled players went hard into that game and made an effort to turn it into a big-name Esport. And the entire gaming industry took one look at it and collectively inhaled in pure avarice. If you want an example of what your average F2P game is like, go play something by Perfect World Entertainment - their monetization is so ridiculously greedy that, for a long time, I entertained the notion that the company existed purely to wage economic warfare against North American children on behalf of the Chinese. Yeah, that's a little crazy, but I was angry with how Neverwinter turned out, and in any case it's an amusing notion to entertain. =3

This game is not that. It's not CoD, either: I played the first Modern Warfare, messed around with World at War, and was entirely bored with the series. Much of the online gaming community looks at CoD as the game that ruined the landscape for them. It's a view that's often flawed, but has some merits to it, in that it (like LoL) shaped the opinions of game developers all over the world and really set the tone for a lot of AAA releases. It was a dumb game, but it was amusing - like an action movie where everyone ignores the plot-holes because, HOLY **** DID HE JUST DO THAT?! THAT'S SO BADASS!

Nosgoth is none of these. I can see the merit of some of the comparisons with CoD, but anyone who's looked into the community knows better than to make that comparison. A lot of gamers hate the CoD series not because of the way it influenced developers, but for the people it brought with it - entitled 12-year-olds with headsets, a lot of free time, and a vocabulary that doesn't extend much past "That's such bull****," or "STFU ***got." I've watched a few of the Twitch streamers for this game, and they are not that crowd. This community has a better bunch. Hell, some of the devs even show up to watch the streams, and they act like actual people, as opposed to the corporate shills one might expect - the Nosgoth devs haven't been trying to influence the outlook on their game, they've been trying to improve their game in response to the outlook. This shows a surprising and, really, heart-warming amount of self-awareness in a medium that's been trying its best to emulate Hollywood for more than a decade because, frankly, they don't know what else to do and are afraid of taking the risks necessary to create actual art.

They look, they listen, and they released free old-school skins for the vampires just to appease the old-time fans of the series. Do you have any idea how unusual that is? Do you have any idea how rare that is? In LoL, if they did the same thing, the skins would probably cost two bucks each. If they did that in any Perfect World game, the skins would cost forty bucks each. They did it for free. And they probably /liked/ doing it on its own merits, and they probably did it because they knew it would make a few people happy.

I'm not a fanboy - I don't fall into that trap, no matter the medium. I sit back, take a deep breath, and then /think/ about things before passing judgment. Nosgoth is a fun game in its own right, on its own merits. Frankly, I look at the LoK universe tie-in as nothing more than a great excuse to add some awesome atmosphere and damn fine artwork to what is, at base, a well-considered multiplayer action game. They've made great efforts to /improve/ a gaming genre too often prone to the fallacies of greed and annoyance-based business plans. Holy ****, guys, Squeenix dove head-first into a cesspit and said, "Man, this place could use some redecorating."

Have you even noticed how quickly you unlock things in this game? DotA 2 set up a great model for F2P gaming in that the only things you can buy are cosmetic, and confer no in-game advantage other than prestige. These guys took a look at that, saw its merits, and did the same thing. Sure, they've got progression-based unlocks, but where other companies see an opportunity to annoy the **** out of their players until their pockets grow holes, Squeenix actually built a /reasonable/ system. And then they added /extra/ unlocks, at no additional charge, as you level up in each class.

Sure, it's multiplayer, so you're never going to get the lore, dialogue, and plot that you want to see. That's a given, it's a different sort of game. But the next-biggest strength in the LoK series has always been the atmosphere, and they hit that **** bang-on. Grab a sentinel and perch atop one of the higher buildings, take a moment and just look around. This game /feels/ gothic. It /feels/ repressive, from the architecture to the texturing, to the design choices on weapons and abilities. It's not going to read you a bedtime story, but it's impressively true to the /feeling/ of the older games.

I've always been leery of larger studios in any medium - I learned long ago that people tend to be intelligent when on their own, but become more and more stupid as you put them in larger and larger groups. I can't claim to have played every game by these guys, but this one gives me hope. These guys are /listening/. They know. They get it. It's kind of amazing. Any experienced developer will tell you, every so often you have to do something new, take a different tack and direction. It's not the single-player storytelling experience a lot of people wanted, but it's a refreshing and eminently well-considered game. Its mere existence compels new players who have never looked at the series to become fans, to read the wikis and the old lore, to play the old games. As others have said, its existence is enough reason to hope for more story-based single-player amazement. It's a good thing, and done well.

And for this you send death threats?

I'm appalled. **** those people. Square Enix for president, man.

Addendum: It's entirely possible that Psyonix deserves the presidency here, rather than Squeenix. Whoever's responsible for the good things that happened with this game, you know who you are. =)

CountEyokir
21st Jun 2014, 18:09
Funkmaster --- Ok I was sort of with your argument up - "Its mere existence compels new players who have never looked at the series to become fans, to read the wikis and the old lore" --- now having personally found the new players to be ignorant of the lore and not really caring that much about it (often only giving a damn about who scores the highest) I am off the opinion this game needs really focus on tying the lore into the gameplay somehow before we can put our feet up about that. This game needs to sell not only itself but the old series as well, especially if we want it to live up to our expectations of a proper series revival. This 'gaining new fans thing' I hear often put forward really isn't secured by Nosgoth's mere existence.

Funkmaster_Rick
21st Jun 2014, 18:22
I managed to snag beta keys for two of my friends, both of whom I've played D&D with. One of them is interested in the old lore, and this interest came about as a direct result of him playing this game and liking it. I expect the other one will get into the lore eventually.

Mostly this happened because I made a couple of jokes they didn't understand since they hadn't played earlier games in the series. Not to nitpick, but even one example proves my point. Sure, not everyone will get into the lore, but that can't be helped without cramming it down peoples' throats, which will do no good.

I really don't think this game needs to sell the old games as well as itself. See, I don't /expect/ a proper revival. I'm just happy that this game's existence has improved the /chances/ for a revival. I guess it's a glass-half-empty, glass-half-full thing. It's a good game that doesn't deserve the bad rap it's getting. Like I said, the game stands out on its own merits. And those new players who don't care about the old lore? Them being around still makes the game better (that's kind of the entire foundation of the F2P genre, that free players still bring attention to the game).

Don't worry about it. The devs and publisher have, no doubt, taken note of the fanboy froth and seen that there's a market for a real LoK single-player revival. But that's not what this is, nor what it's meant to be. Try to take it for what it is, which is a good game and a great example of ethical business modeling in a medium where companies often need the word "ethical" to be defined before they can understand it outside of the driest of legal definitions.

Vampmaster
21st Jun 2014, 19:10
Nosgoth is a really good game, but it wouldn't have gotten nearly as much attention if it wasn't set in the Legacy of Kain universe. It's understandable that many of those who originally came to this game for that reason would be disappointed at the minimal connections to the LOK series. Some fans will undoubtedly feel like they were brought here under false pretences.

I think it's a massive overreaction to announce that this game has destroyed the entire series, demanding a cancellation or ranting about conspiracy theories, but I still think the developers need to go further than a couple of skins to make it truely feel like part of the Legacy of Kain universe.

AlterRequiem
30th Jun 2014, 22:23
Oh how I've missed these forums and its few bumbling inhabitants. The game is fun. If I werent so busy with work it would eat up most of my time. It takes a truly closed minded gamer to compare this game to call of duty. Its that kind of blind judgement that causes people to associate all vampiric games with the horrifying realization that was the twilight saga. And if I'm being frank, you're no better than that kind of logic. The game is not your cup of tea, fine. But it now has the attention (even if it is divided) of almost everyone on steam. Better to ease old fans people (and new people) back into the series and leave them wanting more than to release a game the vast majority of people wouldn't buy and ruin the series' future for another 10 years.

Chulo86
1st Jul 2014, 02:34
to be honest with you, I most definitely have no problem with this games cancelation.
they say oh! but you haven't played the game yet, and this is the beginning of new interest in the game O.o?!?!
and that people are literally ebaying /researching wiki, ect ect ect.

well if that's true,
then how come the dev's haven't bothered to do the same? why do the current 4 maps (excluding the fane) STILL! look like something recycled from dead sun?

why are there palm trees in free port when they should be pine trees instead?

why is there tribal graffiti in almost every other map?

why does valeholm look nothing like wikia says?
wikia: "valeholm" a snow caped city with a giant church at it's peak.
Nosgoth: "valeholm" a ruined city with tribal art and burning villages.
NO CHURCH!! >:(

why doesn't nosgoth have green water since it's based off soul reaver?

all this game is doing is brainwashing new fans and pulling the strings of the old.
if it wasn't true then why is everybody referring to the vampires as the Tyrant, the sentinal, the reaver, the decever?

when it should be the Turelim, the razielim, the dumahim, the zephonim?

same goes for the human side.
the scout, the alchemist, the hunter, the prophet.

when it should be the watchers, the red sisters, the iron guard, the lost seers.

it makes little to no sense why the characters are named after their classes when both factions don't share the same class types.
you would be confusing the new players if there even is going to be a new single player game with comments such as:

oh look a sentinel, did you see that tyrant? O.o?!?!

this game is a giant mess that needs to be cleaned up or forgotten. >:(



EDIT:
if the dev's truelly cared, then they would take this as constructive criticism instead of hate mail and actually do something about it! instead of crossing there fingers hoping people will like for the tittle alone, or just making excuses that the game is not for everybody. >:(

I want "valeholm" fixed to what wiki says by adding snow and the church on the existing map.

and I want broken vampire barriers, (some that still flicker green mist ) and broken fuse boxes of glyph magic,
possibly exposed piping both underground and on the walls where the power once ran for "sommerdamm."
maleks statue ain't going to cut it.

you want my approval,
EARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(

Vampmaster
1st Jul 2014, 09:35
You're probably best sending a private message to Saikocat or Psyonix_Corey about why Nosgoth has been designed the way it has.

The reason people who complain about Nosgoth are seen as trolls and haters is that so many of them have been unable to express themselves without attacking the personalities of everyone who doesn't despise Nosgoth with every fiber of their being, calling them lairs and sycophants, and generally being as vulgar as possible. As long as you don't do any of that I'm sure they will see it as constructive.

There is a lot that the developers won't have the time or money to change at this point, though. For now, I think the best they'll be able to do is make sure that future content fits with the series better than what they have so far.

Sanguise23
1st Jul 2014, 12:34
to be honest with you, I most definitely have no problem with this games cancelation.
they say oh! but you haven't played the game yet, and this is the beginning of new interest in the game O.o?!?!
and that people are literally ebaying /researching wiki, ect ect ect.

well if that's true,
then how come the dev's haven't bothered to do the same? why do the current 4 maps (excluding the fane) STILL! look like something recycled from dead sun?

why are there palm trees in free port when they should be pine trees instead?

why is there tribal graffiti in almost every other map?

why does valeholm look nothing like wikia says?
wikia: "valeholm" a snow caped city with a giant church at it's peak.
Nosgoth: "valeholm" a ruined city with tribal art and burning villages.
NO CHURCH!! >:(

why doesn't nosgoth have green water since it's based off soul reaver?

all this game is doing is brainwashing new fans and pulling the strings of the old.
if it wasn't true then why is everybody referring to the vampires as the Tyrant, the sentinal, the reaver, the decever?

when it should be the Turelim, the razielim, the dumahim, the zephonim?

same goes for the human side.
the scout, the alchemist, the hunter, the prophet.

when it should be the watchers, the red sisters, the iron guard, the lost seers.

it makes little to no sense why the characters are named after their classes when both factions don't share the same class types.
you would be confusing the new players if there even is going to be a new single player game with comments such as:

oh look a sentinel, did you see that tyrant? O.o?!?!

this game is a giant mess that needs to be cleaned up or forgotten. >:(



EDIT:
if the dev's truelly cared, then they would take this as constructive criticism instead of hate mail and actually do something about it! instead of crossing there fingers hoping people will like for the tittle alone, or just making excuses that the game is not for everybody. >:(

I want "valeholm" fixed to what wiki says by adding snow and the church on the existing map.

and I want broken vampire barriers, (some that still flicker green mist ) and broken fuse boxes of glyph magic,
possibly exposed piping both underground and on the walls where the power once ran for "sommerdamm."
maleks statue ain't going to cut it.

you want my approval,
EARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(

Vamps are named they way there are most likely to allow more than one class per clan, i agree that some of the visuals could be a little more LOKy but i feel you cant judge unless you have played, and it is bring new interest to the game regardless of your sarcasm to say its pulling my strings is ignorant, you dont like it fine but dont insult me or new fans

Bazielim
1st Jul 2014, 14:19
Let's see if I can't clear up some of the misunderstandings here:


to be honest with you, I most definitely have no problem with this games cancelation.
they say oh! but you haven't played the game yet, and this is the beginning of new interest in the game O.o?!?!
and that people are literally ebaying /researching wiki, ect ect ect.
Nosgoth isn't going to be cancelled, far too late for that and it's been far too successful to allow that. to be perfectly honest it's one of the projects I've seen the devs listen most to fan feedback and criticism (those that don't involve insults, trolling or death threats, of course) and with a backstory as complicated as it is in Lok they've had to be very careful with every bit of lore they put out and have deliberately chosen to fit into an era we knew next to nothing about anyway - if you remember SR1 pulled the same trick in regards to BO1, both examples give creative freedom to the devs within an existing framework.


why do the current 4 maps (excluding the fane) STILL! look like something recycled from dead sun?

Because a lot of the art assets were shared. I know a lot of people have gotten onto this as a sticking point recently, but the devs have always been very open from the off that there were shared assets between Nosgoth and Dead Sun and would have been even if Dead Sun had been released


why are there palm trees in free port when they should be pine trees instead?

Another common sticking point, but when have we seen Freeport before to check what trees grew there? Nosgoth is not a single biome world and it's quite far down south so there's no problem with it being warmer and different climatic conditions allowing different wildlife.


why is there tribal graffiti in almost every other map?

Unknown but humans were reduced from a set of kingdoms to a slave race. A tribal revival as they grew back up might well fit their (re)development


why does valeholm look nothing like wikia says?
wikia: "valeholm" a snow caped city with a giant church at it's peak.
Nosgoth: "valeholm" a ruined city with tribal art and burning villages.
NO CHURCH!! >:(



I want "valeholm" fixed to what wiki says by adding snow and the church on the existing map.

Well for starters, those articles that are common to BO2 and Nosgoth have not been properly updated since the announcement of Nosgoth and still essentially have BO2 info plus a sentence explaining that they will appear in Nosgoth; they will need further updates in future as new information is released, but this has not been done yet as the game is still in development and things could still change meaning they can't be "finished" unlike the BO2 project which is essentially complete apart from those which need added content thanks to Nosgoth. For the record, here is some quotes from the wiki about Valeholm (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Valeholm):


"It is depicted in concept art as a snow-driven settlement with stone walls and several houses, overshadowed by a church-like building atop a rocky crag. It does not appear in the game, and was presumably among many areas which never made it past the concept stage"


"In its initial appearance Valeholm is depicted as covered in snow, as with other Blood Omen 2 location concept arts. Like these areas the snow does not feature in the formal debut of the area in Nosgoth."

From these you should be able to tell that the town seen in BO2 was merely a concept for a level that got discarded from the finished project, done in a style (snow driven) that was used for lots of BO2 concepts but ultimately deemed inappropriate. In the same way that Turel's look was changed between the deleted SR1 boss to the Defiance one, so was this - ultimately cut content is not canon unless otherwise stated.


why doesn't nosgoth have green water since it's based off soul reaver?

because Nosgoth hasn't decayed as much yet as the world seen in SR1.


if it wasn't true then why is everybody referring to the vampires as the Tyrant, the sentinal, the reaver, the decever?
when it should be the Turelim, the razielim, the dumahim, the zephonim?
same goes for the human side.
the scout, the alchemist, the hunter, the prophet.
when it should be the watchers, the red sisters, the iron guard, the lost seers.
etc etc

These are clearly ranks within the factions


and I want broken vampire barriers, (some that still flicker green mist ) and broken fuse boxes of glyph magic,
possibly exposed piping both underground and on the walls where the power once ran for "sommerdamm."
maleks statue ain't going to cut it.

I'm afraid Nosgoth occurs in the second timeline, whereas BO2 happens in the fourth. Most of the stuff that happens in BO2 is dependant upon conditions that happen only in the fourth, so cannot have happened here; so resurgent Hylden, no revived Sarafan, no Glyph magic etc etc. Nosgoth does not have to follow on from BO2, although it's events could well carry forward into the fourth timeline.

Finally, if I could encourage you to contribute, but keep it constructive - there are a couple of sentences which skirt the line here.

Lord_Aevum
1st Jul 2014, 14:58
why does valeholm look nothing like wikia says?
wikia: "valeholm" a snow caped city with a giant church at it's peak.
Nosgoth: "valeholm" a ruined city with tribal art and burning villages.
NO CHURCH!! >:(

I'm pretty sure that that wiki article was created by a terrible hack who has no idea what he's doing.

Probably best not to take it at face value.

Chulo86
1st Jul 2014, 16:25
Let's see if I can't clear up some of the misunderstandings here:

Because a lot of the art assets were shared. I know a lot of people have gotten onto this as a sticking point recently, but the devs have always been very open from the off that there were shared assets between Nosgoth and Dead Sun and would have been even if Dead Sun had been released


It doesn't have to be that way.
they had plenty of time to remove the similarities.



Another common sticking point, but when have we seen Freeport before to check what trees grew there? Nosgoth is not a single biome world and it's quite far down south so there's no problem with it being warmer and different climatic conditions allowing different wildlife.


This is a video game boss, (not the real life)
eco systems can be done how ever the dev pleases.
and as far as I know, all the games never sported palm trees (ever.)
no matter what eco system.



Unknown but humans were reduced from a set of kingdoms to a slave race. A tribal revival as they grew back up might well fit their (re)development


I can probably accept that,
but that's just another excuse to keep the dead sun elements.
(they should change the tribal symbols to something else then.)



Well for starters, those articles that are common to BO2 and Nosgoth have not been properly updated since the announcement of Nosgoth and still essentially have BO2 info plus a sentence explaining that they will appear in Nosgoth; they will need further updates in future as new information is released, but this has not been done yet as the game is still in development and things could still change meaning they can't be "finished" unlike the BO2 project which is essentially complete apart from those which need added content thanks to Nosgoth. For the record, here is some quotes from the wiki about Valeholm (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Valeholm):
[/I]

From these you should be able to tell that the town seen in BO2 was merely a concept for a level that got discarded from the finished project, done in a style (snow driven) that was used for lots of BO2 concepts but ultimately deemed inappropriate. In the same way that Turel's look was changed between the deleted SR1 boss to the Defiance one, so was this - ultimately cut content is not canon unless otherwise stated.


What about the priestess?
she was also not cannon and yet she made it into this game?
sure there are moving puzzles with female images in the retail release.
but according to your logic, that could have been (anyone.)



because Nosgoth hasn't decayed as much yet as the world seen in SR1.


This is probably the only thing I give you credit,
I would like to see this in future maps though. :)



These are clearly ranks within the factions.



Do those ranks change as you level up?
because clearly people are substituting the ranks as the legitimate names for the characters.



I'm afraid Nosgoth occurs in the second timeline, whereas BO2 happens in the fourth. Most of the stuff that happens in BO2 is dependant upon conditions that happen only in the fourth, so cannot have happened here; so resurgent Hylden, no revived Sarafan, no Glyph magic etc etc. Nosgoth does not have to follow on from BO2, although it's events could well carry forward into the fourth timeline.


I could accept that.
but not many people liked blood omen 2, (I liked it.)
as for the time lines, each game has been set so that each time line can co-exist with one another.
that's why the events of soul reaver 2 has created blood omen 2 and blood omen 2 with defiance.
you cannot change that, regardless of the (fan-fiction.)

Vampmaster
1st Jul 2014, 17:10
This is a video game boss, (not the real life)
eco systems can be done how ever the dev pleases.
and as far as I know, all the games never sported pine trees (ever.)
no matter what eco system.

Doesn't it make sense to use real life as a guideline where no previous reference is given? The developers of previous games have said in interviews and Q&As that they've intentionally left it vague as to whether Nosgoth is a county, country, continent or planet. Presumably this would be for the purpose of introducing areas that weren't part of the original Blood Omen 1 map. Including such varied areas only shows just how mighty Kain's empire is.


What about the priestess?
she was also not cannon and yet she made it into this game?
sure there are moving puzzles with female images in the retail release.
but according to your logic, that could have been (anyone.)

I assume that's based on popularity, since a lot of people wanted to see her. There would need to be an explanation for how she could still be alive by SR1 though. The cut dialogue says she served Kain for a long time, but it's a bit of a leap to say it was centuries. I like the idea that she could possess younger bodies whenever her current one wears out. (EDIT: Or better yet taught Kain how to transfer parts of his soul into the Lieutenants).


This is probably the only thing I give you credit,
I would like to see this in future maps though. :)

Agreed. I'd really like to see the termogent forest in a dead/dying state. That's fairly close to the pillars, so would be one of the most severely effected areas if the corruption is radial as SE have said.


I could accept that.
but not many people liked blood omen 2, (I liked it.)
as for the time lines, each game has been set so that each time line can co-exist with one another.
that's why the events of soul reaver 2 has created blood omen 2 and blood omen 2 with defiance.
you cannot change that, regardless of the (fan-fiction.)

SE/Psyonix have tried to take note of what the original developers have said in Q&As and not just what was actually in the game. That information provides insight into what was going through their heads when the original games were being written and gives the best clues of how the events that actually in the games were intended to fit together.

The Q&As have specifically said that the paradox at the end of SR2 and therefore BO2 and Defiance has had no impact on Raziel's experiences, meaning virtually all traces of the the hylden would have been gone before the era Nosgoth is set in.

FireWorks_
1st Jul 2014, 17:32
Can anybody please explain me why it is important to have a fully fleshed out story for a multiplayer game? Ok give me a rough reason why Im fighting here, but all this "never change my old gaming memories of the past" thing is beyond me.

The game is fun as hell with a very well working core gameplay (and a lot of bugs around it). The maps have the soul captured of the old Kain games (of those i played).

But thats gotta cut it for Team Deathmatch, there is no further story needed than "we kill the other team". Sure it feels dull if its only "cause they are bad" but the lore of this game is so way beyond that in the best sense.


This deep rooted fear of change, of loss what was once a lovely experience. The game doesnt change that, it adds new chapters.

Bazielim
1st Jul 2014, 17:37
Hmm, for me there doesn't really seem to be any legitimate criticism here, but let's see if I can illuminate why anyway:

It doesn't have to be that way.
they had plenty of time to remove the similarities.



but that's just another excuse to keep the dead sun elements.
(they should change the tribal symbols to something else then.)


I'd be inclined to reiterate: I don't consider using assets from Dead Sun as an issue. Nothing wrong with reusing them. I'd rather they spent their time on more useful endeavours.


This is a video game boss, (not the real life)
eco systems can be done how ever the dev pleases.
and as far as I know, all the games never sported pine trees (ever.)
no matter what eco system.

in that case the devs desire the eco system is not a single biome ;)
there had never been a warp gate seen in the series until SR1 doesn't mean it was wrong to use them. They're free to expand on the world, especially if they're nothing to explicitly contradict it and we knew nothing anyway.
Nothing wrong with this either.


What about the priestess?
she was also not cannon and yet she made it into this game?
sure there are moving puzzles with female images in the retail release.
but according to your logic, that could have been (anyone.)

Priestess was introduced to this game and made fully canon here, as was Valeholm, yes. (and a small fyi, the lady on the block in SR1 was confirmed to not be the priestess) - they could have reinterpreted her or the town any way they wanted because they had not been introduced to the series and were cut content (and for all we know the church is there right behind the gate). This is not an issue.



Do those ranks change as you level up?
because clearly people are substituting the ranks as the legitimate names for the characters.

erm, no they do not level up in that way - they are just the names for the individual classes, illustrating the complexities of each clan by showing the subgroupings within and providing room for further ones in future. You have specialists within any group; don't see an issue here either.



as for the time lines, each game has been set so that each time line can co-exist with one another.
that's why the events of soul reaver 2 has created blood omen 2 and blood omen 2 with defiance.
you cannot change that, regardless of the (fan-fiction.)
not sure I get what you're grasping at here and don't think that's really how the lok temporal fiction works. Nosgoth has been indicated to take place in the same timeline as the events of SR1 (2nd), so Nosgoth technically happened before there was the muckaround in the timelines cause by Raziel's SR2 excursion - this in turn means that the changes made in the SR2-Defiance-BO2 loop do not have any influence on Nosgoth and cannot even be referenced because they haven't taken place - and because we know that the events of the Soul Reaver era have not changed, we know that even in the later timelines the SR era did not change, we can be fairly sure that the events that occured in this 'War for Nosgoth' did not either. Fan fiction does not effect the canon (and the canon is where Nosgoth is)

It seems to me that a lot of these criticisms are kind of non-issues. These are things that do not need changing and are perfectly fine to do especially in an era and locale that we've not seen before. They are adding to the dark corners of the world and expanding upon them not treading on the toes of the previous games we loved.

GenFeelGood
1st Jul 2014, 17:53
Do those ranks change as you level up?
because clearly people are substituting the ranks as the legitimate names for the characters.

Its more of a classification or specialization than a rank, there is the possibility that once all the clans and human factions are in play they will introduce another class for each clan and faction.

Lord_Aevum
1st Jul 2014, 17:59
This deep rooted fear of change, of loss what was once a lovely experience. The game doesnt change that, it adds new chapters.

I don't think you can adequately refute people's complaints by boiling them down to nostalgia goggles or a fear of change.

It's been eleven years since the last LoK game. The fans of this franchise were absolutely starved by Eidos, and all that time they've still clamoured for a juicy flagship title to continue the story. After all, it was promised to them. Even though I think this game is great, there's simply no way of pretending that it satisfies those expectations, and the situation with Dead Sun also complicates people's perspectives. There is an school of thought that Nosgoth is out to indefinitely replace the traditional format of the series; you can't possibly accept it for what it is, in a vacuum, if you follow that line of opinion.

I personally don't think that's the case whatsoever, nor that there's anything inherent in Nosgoth to prevent it from delivering a solid story, but fear of change is a perfectly understandable concern in this context. Fans have incredible passion for the series, and won't surrender their ideal vision for it without a fight.

Chulo86
2nd Jul 2014, 20:47
Doesn't it make sense to use real life as a guideline where no previous reference is given? The developers of previous games have said in interviews and Q&As that they've intentionally left it vague as to whether Nosgoth is a county, country, continent or planet. Presumably this would be for the purpose of introducing areas that weren't part of the original Blood Omen 1 map. Including such varied areas only shows just how mighty Kain's empire is.


so this is nosgoth. :D
not 100% accurate but it's geography is, if all 3 games (bo1,sr2,bo2 ) co-existed.
That! and I like this one because of how jake pawloski designed it :P




to answer your question, YES! it does make sense to design a game with real life climate/biomes as a guideline.
but unfortunately for nosgoth, (legacy of kain in general) it's a video game.

because if Nosgoth was a real life state / province with real climate, real biomes, it would consist of 4 different regions.

The Artic tundra. oracel's cave

coniferous forest. basically every square inch of nosgoth. :P LOL!!!

aquatic: marine/fresh water. The only kind nosgoth has,
which includes the great southern sea and the termogent forest. :P

and desert. certain chapters from blood omen 2.

but the reason why it doesn't make sense to add palm trees in free port, it's because meridian doesn't have any either. :)
that! and the oracel's cave shouldn't be the only frozen area in the game because there are plenty of other northern cities that aren't completely frozen over.

realistic or not,
even though you can reverse this on me, "because you can" my only reply is,
I don't think it's appropriate for Nosgoth because vampires don't go to the tropics :P LOL!!!


The Q&As have specifically said that the paradox at the end of SR2 and therefore BO2 and Defiance has had no impact on Raziel's experiences, meaning virtually all traces of the the hylden would have been gone before the era Nosgoth is set in.


I don't remember that Q&A session specifically,
so you might have to link it. (the original)


Hmm, for me there doesn't really seem to be any legitimate criticism here, but let's see if I can illuminate why anyway:

I'd be inclined to reiterate: I don't consider using assets from Dead Sun as an issue. Nothing wrong with reusing them. I'd rather they spent their time on more useful endeavours.


When Dead Sun was still in development, Square Enix canceled the game because they believe it wasn't profitable.
after George Kelion Left Square Enix I tried to throw some sticks in the fire. I started with the L.O.K HD Anthology and ended it by asking him about the dead sun cancellation, and what it could of been if it was still in development.

and his answer was.

George K:
"It could have... but it wasn't. That project wasn't the right fit
for the series or the community, IMHO."

so basically in short,
Square Enix didn't think it was appropriate,
and in my honest opinion I don't like it either. : /


Priestess was introduced to this game and made fully canon here, as was Valeholm, yes. (and a small fyi, the lady on the block in SR1 was confirmed to not be the priestess) - they could have reinterpreted her or the town any way they wanted because they had not been introduced to the series and were cut content (and for all we know the church is there right behind the gate). This is not an issue.


I just brought it up because it was suggested on Ben Lincolns page. : /


erm, no they do not level up in that way - they are just the names for the individual classes, illustrating the complexities of each clan by showing the subgroupings within and providing room for further ones in future. You have specialists within any group; don't see an issue here either.


well I most definitely see the issue,
if there were 2 Tryants for both the Human and Vampire factions ok I understand that,(but there isn't any.)
and to see the new players call the Characters by Class name and not their Clan name not only is that misleading the new players,
it just makes my teeth cringe :(


Fan fiction does not effect the canon (and that's where Nosgoth is)


couldn't have said it better myself :)

Bazielim
3rd Jul 2014, 05:57
Gotta love a map:D
Continuing on, let's take a stab at allaying some of these concerns.


but the reason why it doesn't make sense to add palm trees in free port, it's because meridian doesn't have any either. :)

This has come up before and while I see your point, unless we have photographs of Freeport as it was before then the devs can create what they want and it can still be appropriate, that we haven't seen that sort of thing before doesn't mean they don't exist out there somewhere - I mean Ushctenheim changed wholesale and no-one batted an eyelid. I don't find them inappropriate; they fit into the Freeport setting and the Freeport setting fits with the aesthetic of the rest of the series. It would take unnecessary time and effort for the devs to change these things and when it's already a blank canvas, you can understand why they would be reluctant.


I don't remember that Q&A session specifically,
so you might have to link it. (the original)

here you are:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=337848&postcount=19
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1932#p1932


When Dead Sun was still in development, Square Enix canceled the game because they believe it wasn't profitable.
after George Kelion Left Square Enix I tried to throw some sticks in the fire. I started with the L.O.K HD Anthology and ended it by asking him about the dead sun cancellation, and what it could of been if it was still in development.

and his answer was.

George K:
"It could have... but it wasn't. That project wasn't the right fit
for the series or the community, IMHO."

so basically in short,
Square Enix didn't think it was appropriate,
and in my honest opinion I don't like it either. : /

There are many reasons for the cancellation of Dead Sun, but the art assets used in the locations wasn't one of them and even when Nosgoth and Dead Sun were planned to be bedfellows they were always gonna share those.



I just brought it up because it was suggested on Ben Lincolns page. : /

Fair enough, Daniel Cabuco has since clarified for us (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16#p209).



well I most definitely see the issue,
if there were 2 Tryants for both the Human and Vampire factions ok I understand that,(but there isn't any.)
and to see the new players call the Characters by Class name and not their Clan name not only is that misleading the new players,
it just makes my teeth cringe :(


While I see your point, it's not an issue for me. There is plenty of information around saying they are Turelim - a lot of this is down to players choosing how they want to say it and well "Tyrant" is easier in the heat of battle. As I say the differing classes at its heart is to illuminate that there were/are differing roles within each clan as has long been hinted from previous official comments.


couldn't have said it better myself :)
I do hope you aren't misunderstanding for comic effect ;) Seriously though, Nosgoth is canon and it's here to stay. That some in the community might dislike the idea of it doesn't mean it is reduced to fanfiction. There are a lot of good ideas and themes in there which dig into a dark unknown era in the history of the realm (and which you should be able to see a bit better in the near future) . I hope you'll stick with the game and we'll uncover them together.

Chulo86
9th Jul 2014, 11:03
I do hope you aren't misunderstanding for comic effect ;) Seriously though, Nosgoth is canon and it's here to stay. That some in the community might dislike the idea of it doesn't mean it is reduced to fanfiction.


I wasn't referring to Nosgoth as fan-fiction,
I was referring to that illusive time-line from which you keep referring to.
now I gotta admit, I did not understand the first time but after reading your wiki lets see what you think about this..



If two incarnations of the Soul Reaver met in time and space,[/U] "a temporal distortion powerful enough to derail history" could be the result. When such a paradox blocked the time continuum, forcing Nosgoth's history to reshuffle itself to accommodate the contradiction, the current timeline effectively died, and a new one was spawned. Four distinct timelines have been observed in the Legacy of Kain series, each one subtly or significantly different to the last, and each remembered by both Kain and Moebius.

http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Timelines




past, present, and future events.
[/B]
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Paradoxes



so according to your wiki, soul reaver does indeed come after blood omen 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGjcpt2Ic0it

I seriously don't know why people disregard this fact when it clearly states it in the intro.
"And centuries before Kain would rule the wasteland of nosgoth with his lieutenant Raziel."

Ps. your time lines are wrong.
if a paradox only happens when two incarnations of the reaver met in time and space, then there should be 5 timelines.(not 4)
because that would also include soul reaver 1 when kain shattered the blade on raziels back. (as stated by Raziel in SR2 ending)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD4M7XofkPY
00:57 - 1:36

which in my opinion soul reaver 3 begins.



soul reaver 3 where Raziel gets resurrected during the event when Kain shattered the blade in soul reaver 1.
(if Ariel got resurrected so can Raziel) there should be like a hollow piece engraved on Raziels chest to abdomen in the shape of the soul reaver to symbolized that he is missing part of his soul or something. (kain shattering the blade could of stopped time for a brief moment for resurrected raziel to leave un-noticed) Raziel could then kill Kain when Kain returns to nosgoth's wasteland (Kain has been stringing Raziel all the way through defiance just to absolve himself from the pillars curse) and then Raziel can then challenge the Hylden (the Hylden Lord in BO2 told Kain he wouldn't live long enough to see the Hylden return)




EDIT:
I would appreciate if the dev's take the time to address post 32.
it doesn't matter if it's on the bottom of the to do list.

RainaAudron
9th Jul 2014, 12:52
so according to your wiki, soul reaver does indeed come after blood omen 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGjcpt2Ic0it

I seriously don't know why people disregard this fact when it clearly states it in the intro.
"And centuries before Kain would rule the wasteland of nosgoth with his lieutenant Raziel."

Ps. your time lines are wrong.
if a paradox only happens when two incarnations of the reaver met in time and space, then there should be 5 timelines.(not 4)
because that would also include soul reaver 1 when kain shattered the blade on raziels back. (as stated by Raziel in SR2 ending)

Nobody is disregarding that fact, we all know that BO2 follows after events of Defiance, then SR1 comes into place.

The timelines on the wiki are correct - Kain always shattered the blade upon Raziel in the future and Raziel was always destined to become the soul within the blade.


which in my opinion soul reaver 3 begins.
Defiance is Soul Reaver 3.


soul reaver 3 where Raziel gets resurrected during the event when Kain shattered the blade in soul reaver 1.
(if Ariel got resurrected so can Raziel) there should be like a hollow piece engraved on Raziels chest to abdomen in the shape of the soul reaver to symbolized that he is missing part of his soul or something. (kain shattering the blade could of stopped time for a brief moment for resurrected raziel to leave un-noticed) Raziel could then kill Kain when Kain returns to nosgoth's wasteland (Kain has been stringing Raziel all the way through defiance just to absolve himself from the pillars curse) and then Raziel can then challenge the Hylden (the Hylden Lord in BO2 told Kain he wouldn't live long enough to see the Hylden return)
I am sorry, but I do not understand what you mean - when did Ariel get resurrected? Raziel does not get resurrected when he is struck by the blade either. Sorry, that whole paragraph just does not make any sense to me...


and I want broken vampire barriers, (some that still flicker green mist ) and broken fuse boxes of glyph magic,
possibly exposed piping both underground and on the walls where the power once ran for "sommerdamm."
maleks statue ain't going to cut it.

Also, since Nosgoth took place first at the second timeline, no trace of Glyph energy or anything Hylden like can be present.

Vampmaster
9th Jul 2014, 12:59
Defiance is Soul Reaver 3.

And the file names confirm this. :D

Chulo86@, like I said before, you're more likely to get a response from the devs if you PM Saikocat or Psyonix_Corey

Resurrecting Raziel a third time isn't a very good idea because the more times that happens the less significant it is. If Raziel can be brought back again and again, it makes any sacrifices he makes (such as the one in Defiance) meaningless, because he's not giving anything up. He's just benched for a while. Amy said herself in interviews and Q&As that bringing him back again would cheapen his sacrifice.

She also said that Raziel's future soul in the form of the Wraith Blade dispersed into Kain at the end of Defiance, while the current version of him enters the Blood Reaver turning that into the Soul Reaver.

BTW, I still don't think it's a problem for Nosgoth to have regions with multiple climates because it's size has never been stated and it could easily be the size of several countries. In fact previous developers have deliberately avoided saying if it's a county, country, continent or planet, so they can introduce new parts as they please. You were right about the Freeport being parallel (and north-ish) to Meridian (I hadn't checked the map in a while), I'll give you that one.

Lord_Aevum
9th Jul 2014, 13:30
after reading your wiki lets see what you think about this

Despite literally thousands of hours of work, the wiki is far from complete and still not even fully vetted. If an article feels inaccurate, why not find a reliable source to back up your proposed corrections, and edit them in? :)

Bazielim
9th Jul 2014, 14:03
I wasn't referring to Nosgoth as fan-fiction,
I was referring to that illusive time-line from which you keep referring to.
now I gotta admit, I did not understand the first time but after reading your wiki lets see what you think about this..


The Timeline of Nosgoth is what I was referring to and the Timelines (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Timelines) article on the wiki is one of the more thorough attempts to capture exactly how it played out. I cannot express this enough but that you dislike something in the canon of the series does not make it 'fanfiction' - if the devs have stated that's how it happened then that's how it happened unless it is contradicted elsewhere (this is often known as 'word of god'). Timelines in particular is a gold-star completed article - all of those numbers you see in it are references, click on them and they will take you to the places where the information comes from - it's not "our opinion on what happened" so much as "what we've been told on how it happened". Paradoxes on the other hand - no numbers, so it's been basically checked for contradictions and such but I can't say it's be thoroughly referenced and vetted yet, but at a glance I see nothing that the author has written which is particularly wrong with it aside from needing to be expanded and sources referenced.



so according to your wiki, soul reaver does indeed come after blood omen 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAGjcpt2Ic0it

I seriously don't know why people disregard this fact when it clearly states it in the intro.
"And centuries before Kain would rule the wasteland of nosgoth with his lieutenant Raziel."

Ps. your time lines are wrong.

I think you're misunderstanding here. Yes obviously in terms of Nosgothic history then BO2 is followed by the backstory and opening cutscene of SR1 . But when Raziel goes into time travel at the end of SR1 he causes paradoxes in the past which totally change the history of Nosgoth in the Post-Blood Omen era. The whole of the loop from the ending part of the SR2 through Defiance and BO2 is an altered timeline (the fourth) created by the paradoxes Raziel caused in the past.
In the second timeline that Raziel left originally, these altered elements (including the whole of Defiance and BO2's events - Janos resurrected, the Hylden etc) were not present and therefore did not exist 'prior' to Raziel going back in time; SR1 as we saw it did not follow on from BO2, because we only saw it in the second, whereas BO2 only happened in the fourth. This has all been confirmed by the devs, as has the fact that the events and backstory of SR1 did not change massively for the introduction of the SR2-Def-BO2 loop
Compare and contrast these tabs under the timeline page: Second timeline (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Timelines/Second) Vs Fourth Timeline (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Timelines/Fourth) or alternatively don't take our word for it: 1 (http://en.legadodekain.net/lineatemporal.html) / 2 (http://aradiel.co.uk/loktimeline.html)




if a paradox only happens when two incarnations of the reaver met in time and space, then there should be 5 timelines.(not 4)
because that would also include soul reaver 1 when kain shattered the blade on raziels back. (as stated by Raziel in SR2 ending) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD4M7XofkPY
00:57 - 1:36
The SR1 example is not a juncture of history, there is no choice here, no distortion and no time altering paradox- it shatters the blade due the very possibility (the paradox) that one soul may devour the other. You could argue Raziel has free will to change events but what option is there to change? Again this is not stuff that hasn't been officially commented on before, it all has basis in developer information.
Arguably there is a fifth timeline (it's down there in the notes underneath) but this is 'before' the others and we have no idea how that was changed, only that in a timeline 'previous' to the ones we've seen William was 'just'



which in my opinion soul reaver 3 begins.


soul reaver 3 where Raziel gets resurrected during the event when Kain shattered the blade in soul reaver 1.
(if Ariel got resurrected so can Raziel) there should be like a hollow piece engraved on Raziels chest to abdomen in the shape of the soul reaver to symbolized that he is missing part of his soul or something. (kain shattering the blade could of stopped time for a brief moment for resurrected raziel to leave un-noticed) Raziel could then kill Kain when Kain returns to nosgoth's wasteland (Kain has been stringing Raziel all the way through defiance just to absolve himself from the pillars curse) and then Raziel can then challenge the Hylden (the Hylden Lord in BO2 told Kain he wouldn't live long enough to see the Hylden return)
Sorry but aside from Defiance being SR3 and that theory not really being plausible for the above reasons, for me personally that does seem like an unnecessary attempt to find a way to remove Raziel from the sword by any means. As interesting and brilliant a character as he was, I think his story is done and just pulling him out cheapens the sacrifice he took to create the scion of balance - it's kain's job, he should finish it IMO.


I would appreciate if the dev's take the time to address post 32.
Personally I still don't see the issue with Dead Sun pieces, or trees, or reinterpreting areas that never made it passed concept phase, or using easier names, but I'm sure they'll look by if it's necessary.

Vampmaster
9th Jul 2014, 14:37
Personally I still don't see the issue with Dead Sun pieces, or trees, or reinterpreting areas that never made it passed concept phase, or using easier names, but I'm sure they'll look by if it's necessary.

I think the issue is that Dead Sun is thought (confirmed?) to be is a different era than Nosgoth is set and after the land had been restored to health. That would make much of the design concept unsuitable for it's corrupt/dying era. This is incorrect as Bill explains here that the multiplayer was never set in the same era as Dead Sun's story mode in the first place and possibly not even shipped as the same game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXU0_gEPK7o

Bazielim
9th Jul 2014, 17:46
I think the issue is that Dead Sun is thought (confirmed?) to be is a different era than Nosgoth is set and after the land had been restored to health. That would make much of the design concept unsuitable for it's corrupt/dying era. This is incorrect as Bill explains here that the multiplayer was never set in the same era as Dead Sun's story mode in the first place and possibly not even shipped as the same game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXU0_gEPK7o
That might make more sense.:)
Of course, had they looked like the same bright sunny screenshots that we originally saw from Dead Sun then I might have agreed, but it clearly isn't the same anymore. Indeed, though they are the same assets at the basic level, everything has been made to look lot darker and grimier. It looks the part of a dying world in turmoil now rather than anything like a bright restored world. All that's been left now are a few bits that you'd only recognise if you'd sought out the Dead Sun stuff - and they don't exactly scream out "restored world" without the prior knowledge of where they came from... and since the game that might have put them in a restored world doesn't exist, then it's kind of a moot point - they look the part, so it's pretty irrelevant where they originally came from.

IronL1ch
28th Jan 2015, 11:47
Yeah, hey, call me mortaneous I'm resurrecting this ****.
So look, when I saw the trailer for this game a few days ago I got really excited when I saw the name Nosgoth. Then I saw the gameplay and was... Well... I was confused and a bit disturbed. I couldn't see either the architecture or the characters representing anything I had seen from the LoK universe before. I too was upset by the sparkling twi-hard vampires running around. Even the classes and the combat didn't really feel right. It kind of reminded me of something kids threw together for an art project frankly. I enjoy wild, mixed up brawls but something about this seemed too basic and mashy. Like a giant disorganized cluster *****, except a really boring, lame cluster *****.

I guess I've just had that bottled up for a few days. I actually enjoy this game. I haven't played much of anything else in my free time. I was actually really disappointed about something, and maybe you can enlighten me on this.


Nosgoth has been indicated to take place in the same timeline as the events of SR1 (2nd),

So how... Well, listen if this is true, then I can understand the Razielim vampire looking the way he does. But not really. I mean I'd have expected the devolved Razielim vampires to have darker skin, worn, weathered like the Dumahim. What bugs me is that the basic vampire models weren't true to the time frame in which this game was meant to take place. I mean... Yes the devs have given us skins that are more like the old vampires. But I guess I'm just mad that they didn't do it that way to begin with. I was surprised to find out the Tyrants were Turelim and the Reavers were Dumahim. I thought those were throwbacks to the BO2 lookin' weirdos.

I mean it really doesn't matter, seeing how I'm gonna play the crap out of this and in all likelyhood unlock the skins I like, but damn I shoulda had them outta the box! Maybe there's nothing for me to really complain about, but staying in line with the purpose the author had for this thread, that's everything I don't like about Nosgoth.

Boom. Outta my system. Feels great.

Sanguise23
28th Jan 2015, 13:45
lol, alot of ppl agree with you mate, there is some good lore that explains most of this away. its in the blogs. i think they did well using LoK stuff if you read the blogs,of course there could always be more

mauvo58
28th Jan 2015, 14:13
As someone who's never player a LoK game, threads like this make me think 2 things:

1) These guys love LoK games, maybe I missed out on something good. Maybe I'll pick one up in the next Steam sale.
2) The whole lore thing is just tacked-on and has no impact on the game. Nosgoth is not really a LoK game.

Chulo86
29th Jan 2015, 07:42
I was really hoping for this thread to stay dead,
back then I actually had a few more things to say but was to lazy to wright it.

like some have mentioned earlier it would of been better if the shield bearers were to be escaped convicts from the crucible arenas,
but after reading the new lore blog for the shield bearer I finely see the direction this game is going.

not to say it was poorly written.
you guys did a wonderful job keeping things new and exciting.
my only complaint was that it was written as though the events of blood omen 2 never happened. :(

meaning, Nosgoth was never set in the forth timeline but the second.
you see that's the thing with these timelines as to why I refer to them as fan fiction.
it's just another excuse to disregard blood omen 2. :(

EDIT:
Ps. Defiance does not = soul reaver 3.

Lomonop
29th Jan 2015, 09:24
So how... Well, listen if this is true, then I can understand the Razielim vampire looking the way he does. But not really. I mean I'd have expected the devolved Razielim vampires to have darker skin, worn, weathered like the Dumahim. What bugs me is that the basic vampire models weren't true to the time frame in which this game was meant to take place. I mean... Yes the devs have given us skins that are more like the old vampires. But I guess I'm just mad that they didn't do it that way to begin with. I was surprised to find out the Tyrants were Turelim and the Reavers were Dumahim. I thought those were throwbacks to the BO2 lookin' weirdos.
You misread the word "timeline" for "time". Nosgoth takes place in the time that Raziel was in the abyss (between the intro of SR1 and the actual game).
Therefore the vampires are not as (d)evolved as they were in SR1. Also, most of the vampires you play with in Nosgoth are fledglings (except for the "evolved skins", those are a bit older vampires). They are on their way to become the monstrosities they were in SR1.

Ysanoire
29th Jan 2015, 20:46
I too was upset by the sparkling twi-hard vampires running around. Even the classes and the combat didn't really feel right. It kind of reminded me of something kids threw together for an art project frankly.

Oh, you know best just what everything should look like, but not how to spell "Mortanius"? You're such a devoted fan.

Ygdrasel
30th Jan 2015, 01:13
I too was upset by the sparkling twi-hard vampires running around.

There are exactly zero sparkling vampires in this game. Maybe you were watching something else.