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Umbralim
5th Oct 2013, 05:50
When I heard about this sequel, I had similar feelings as everyone else concerning the lore, but when I read through the human class lore "short as it is" on this site i found several references to Dark Eden and I suddenly went from "WTH" to "....... go on." I don't know about you but I always felt DE was the one black hole of the lore that never got any further spotlight, so bringing it back gave me pause to consider the possibilities this game has and I'm curious what other people think about this and hope to get some speculation as to how it'll influence the human classes

The alchemist class apparently has deep ties to Anacrothe and I'm hoping other classes connected to Bane and Djoulle will come out as well.

My only idea is that because this is centuries after Anacrothes death the humans of this time have a very distorted view of Dark Eden and what it actually does, and are trying to reactivate it, believing it'll destroy the vampires.

but I'm curious to hear other ideas about this and how it The DE triad can be used to shape the story,

any speculation?

Denam_Pavel
5th Oct 2013, 07:54
It's 1200+ years since Anacrothes death. One class being connected to such a long dead character is enough.

LOFO1993
5th Oct 2013, 09:43
The Dark Eden reactivation idea is cool, but there is a problem: this game is made appositely not to have any kind of actual story, just background.

Would it cost them little effort to add any kind of small plot? Yes. Will they do it? I'd like it, but I'm afraid they won't, because it would panic the "new audience", who just wants to shoot things and could run away screaming if the game has any kind of story in it.

I don't want to be polemic, I'm just paraphrasing what the developers said many times now. I personally don't ask for a real plot, I know and I understand it wouldn't fit in a PvP, but it would be nice if at least the game turns out not to be totally dumb-addressed. That's more or less my last hope for it.

MrMilky
5th Oct 2013, 09:48
The Dark Eden reactivation idea is cool, but there is a problem: this game is made appositely not to have any kind of actual story, just background.

Would it cost them little effort to add any kind of small plot? Yes. Will they do it? I'd like it, but I'm afraid they won't, because it would panic the "new audience", who just wants to shoot things and could run away screaming if the game has any kind of story in it.

I don't want to be polemic, I'm just paraphrasing what the developers said many times now. I personally don't ask for a real plot, I know and I understand it wouldn't fit in a PvP, but it would be nice if at least the game turns out not to be totally dumb-addressed. That's more or less my last hope for it.

I don't recall devs saying that it would scare away the audience. Might be possible to give the insight? Thanks

Umbralim
5th Oct 2013, 09:49
well I understand where your coming from but I think your generalizing pvp a bit to much, things have changed a lot since the days of blood gulch, there are plenty of story driven pvp's out there now: Team fortress 2, league of legends, bioshock 2 multi-player, and plenty of others, and the developers seem to be quite keen on delivering in my opinion, but time will tell.

LOFO1993
5th Oct 2013, 10:19
I'm not looking at it from a PvP perspective, but from a marketing perspective. The problem is not what could or could not be made, but what will be in order to appeal to the public. I haven't played the game yet, so I don't know exactly what they will do with the setting and the "story". I hope I'm wrong, but from everything they said and wrote my hopes to this regard are very low right now.

Every time they try to answer to "why you did that, it's inconsistent with the original lore"-kind of questions the answers seems to be "we know you're right, but that's how it has to be done in a game like this". They don't want us to "correct their mistakes", because they seem not to consider those mistakes in the first place.

Vampires don't have pointy ears, not even the turelims? - Players could think they're elves if they had.
Three-fingered and two-toed vampires? - Not appealing.
Maps that don't look straight like Tomb Raider? - New artistic direction: they could be somewhere in Nosgoth, you don't know. And they are more appealing than gray wastelands.


If not-that-important things like these bounced against a rubber wall, as they SEEM to have done, well I can't really believe they will make any effort story-wards. The reason is simple: the audience they are aiming to won't care anyway, or even worse they could be somehow be pushed away from the game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate this game for what it is now - I know very little of it. And I don't even have high pretensions, as many others here don't have. But if they won't be able or willing to answer positively even to the smallest and clearer demands, well, the situation won't turn out well.

I'd really like the people at Square Enix and even more at Psyonix to realize they had one chance to sell this to the fans, and no matter what they can say now they screwed it as hard as possible. This forum, in this moment, is full of hopes and promises, but if you let down everyone again you won't have a third chance to take them back. I honestly don't know yet if you really care about "us", but if you do think twice before making your next move. If you don't care - and in this case it will become clear soon - well, count me out. And I won't be the only one, trust me.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 11:22
It's 1200+ years since Anacrothes death. One class being connected to such a long dead character is enough.

They wouldn't have to be actual followers of those guardians, just share their profession. Bane and DeJoule were the most powerful druid and energist in Nosgoth because of their connection to the pillars, but there's nothing to say that others couldn't have studied the same magics while still having nothing to do with them.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 12:35
Would it cost them little effort to add any kind of small plot? Yes. Will they do it? I'd like it, but I'm afraid they won't, because it would panic the "new audience", who just wants to shoot things and could run away screaming if the game has any kind of story in it

Actually, it would NOT panic the newcomers. I have shown the annoucement video for a lot of my friens, to call them to my guild, and they loved the game AND already searched for LoK lore! obviously they will know less than us who played all the games, but they WANT to know all this things.


They wouldn't have to be actual followers of those guardians, just share their profession. Bane and DeJoule were the most powerful druid and energist in Nosgoth because of their connection to the pillars, but there's nothing to say that others couldn't have studied the same magics while still having nothing to do with them.

In fact, there could be, but I would prefer that humans to be of some order actually related to the character, for an example, an order of a friend of Anacrothe (that studied with him) or something like that. The studies could be heredital (so it is still alive after 1700+ years)... what do you think?

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 12:56
Actually, it would NOT panic the newcomers. I have shown the annoucement video for a lot of my friens, to call them to my guild, and they loved the game AND already searched for LoK lore! obviously they will know less than us who played all the games, but they WANT to know all this things.

^^This needs pointing out to the SE as much as possible. :)


In fact, there could be, but I would prefer that humans to be of some order actually related to the character, for an example, an order of a friend of Anacrothe (that studied with him) or something like that. The studies could be heredital (so it is still alive after 1200+ years)... what do you think?

I'd be ok with it, but Denam_Pavel didn't seem to like the idea of each pillar guardian having their own cult/clan/followers, so I was just saying those character classes could still exist without all being named after the guardian. I think those Druid and Energist classes sound interesting and I wouldn't mind what background story they are given.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 15:27
^^This needs pointing out to the SE as much as possible. :)

Sure... I am really exited about this game, and I am making everyone here in my city come with me. The clan is already very active, they made signatures, facebook covers and even wallpapers for us... and they are all beautiful =P Plus, I am loving getting new fans for the series that I love, even with a "no-lore" game.


I'd be ok with it, but Denam_Pavel didn't seem to like the idea of each pillar guardian having their own cult/clan/followers, so I was just saying those character classes could still exist without all being named after the guardian. I think those Druid and Energist classes sound interesting and I wouldn't mind what background story they are given.

Surelly, and they could even have forgotten is name. Turel didn't came out being called Hash'ak'gik? =D

The_Hylden
5th Oct 2013, 16:16
It's 1200+ years since Anacrothes death. One class being connected to such a long dead character is enough.

It's actually more like 1,700/1,800+ years since his death. 500 years from the end of BO1 to raise the Lieutenants. They serve Kain for 1,000 years before Raziel is Abyssed. And this game is a few centuries after that.


And while the game doesn't have story cutcenes, there's every indication still that progress will be noted in some fashion as the game continues, so a change such as this reflected in the world could, I believe, happen. We'll see.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 17:43
It's actually more like 1,700/1,800+ years since his death. 500 years from the end of BO1 to raise the Lieutenants. They serve Kain for 1,000 years before Raziel is Abyssed. And this game is a few centuries after that.


And while the game doesn't have story cutcenes, there's every indication still that progress will be noted in some fashion as the game continues, so a change such as this reflected in the world could, I believe, happen. We'll see.

What about having NPC creatures as hazards on a Dark Eden map? That would add quite a bit of versatility to the gameplay

Denam_Pavel
5th Oct 2013, 17:45
Actually, it would NOT panic the newcomers. I have shown the annoucement video for a lot of my friens, to call them to my guild, and they loved the game AND already searched for LoK lore! obviously they will know less than us who played all the games, but they WANT to know all this things.



In fact, there could be, but I would prefer that humans to be of some order actually related to the character, for an example, an order of a friend of Anacrothe (that studied with him) or something like that. The studies could be heredital (so it is still alive after 1700+ years)... what do you think?

It was 1700+ years ago, most of which all of humanity spent under complete subjegation by vampires. It would require an very devoted order to pass on their teaching and knowledge of them at all. for a good 8 of such orders to be running around under Kain's watch seems just outright sloppy to me.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 18:40
It was 1700+ years ago, most of which all of humanity spent under complete subjegation by vampires. It would require an very devoted order to pass on their teaching and knowledge of them at all. for a good 8 of such orders to be running around under Kain's watch seems just outright sloppy to me.

True, but remember the premise for Nosgoth is that Kain is missing, and it wouldn't be sloppy if said orders only had a handful of people during Kain's reign and thus would not pose much of a threat, Kain most likely would have kept them alive to poke at them for amusement from time to time, but with his absence since Raziel's fall the order could've grown alot in the last 200-300 years

Umbralim
5th Oct 2013, 19:02
Well maybe not an order for all the guardians, but dark eden was left standing bun inactive after kain defeated the triad and kain mentoned the lab in there was like a mages candy store, filled with energies concerning all 3 of the guardian members they could of harvested that and based their order on it.

Denam_Pavel
5th Oct 2013, 19:13
True, but remember the premise for Nosgoth is that Kain is missing, and it wouldn't be sloppy if said orders only had a handful of people during Kain's reign and thus would not pose much of a threat, Kain most likely would have kept them alive to poke at them for amusement from time to time, but with his absence since Raziel's fall the order could've grown alot in the last 200-300 years

Unless by "kept them alive" you mean actually using his magic to give them immortality I don't see how that would work. Only a extremely succesful organisation can survive a thousand years. In a vampire-infested wasteland even then it would be quite unlikely. And I don't see why all the orders would come to be. Mobius needed to actively engineer history to get his crusade going and he and Malek were actually around in a time of relative peace to build up the legend of the Sarafan. Mortanius and Azimuth had to install someone else as their diety. They themselves did not enjoy such love of the people. The others were also mostly holed up somewhere with their madness.

For the others to have fanatics that life their lives in their name and are able to continuisly recruit new followers unfailingly for thousands of years in spite of the vampires just makes them out to be people they were not.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 19:14
George mentions in the Q&A video, and accounts of the community day back this up, that in the case of the red sisters, nobody was friends with Anacrothe personally. It's humans essentially working with nothing but the fact that he was a powerful alchemist and wizard, and creating their order around a reverential mythology based on this minimal knowledge of him. This is not a big stretch because we already know (http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/2059/noxd.png) that some historical murals of the Circle of Nine survived well into Kain's empire.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 19:27
It was 1700+ years ago, most of which all of humanity spent under complete subjegation by vampires. It would require an very devoted order to pass on their teaching and knowledge of them at all. for a good 8 of such orders to be running around under Kain's watch seems just outright sloppy to me.

Again, MOST of humanity. NOT ALL. there is very possible to have been lots of secret orders of humans.

Denam_Pavel
5th Oct 2013, 20:24
Again, MOST of humanity. NOT ALL. there is very possible to have been lots of secret orders of humans.

Well if we showcase all the other secret orders that have endured for thousands of years as well then that would be okay but I don't think we'll get the number of classes to reflect this. If we try have an order for each of the Guardians it'll end up seeming like that these 8 loonies that lived an incredibly long time ago all around the same time is the one and only thing that humans have that inspired them in thousands of years of recorded history.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:31
Well if we showcase all the other secret orders that have endured for thousands of years as well then that would be okay but I don't think we'll get the number of classes to reflect this. If we try have an order for each of the Guardians it'll end up seeming like that these 8 loonies that lived an incredibly long time ago all around the same time is the one and only thing that humans have that inspired them in thousands of years of recorded history.

Not all, but some of the classes... for me, humans lack lore linked to the previous game.

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 20:31
It doesn't have to be all 8. Maybe they just broke into the laboratory in Dark Eden and started playing with all the toys the triad left behind. They wouldn't necessarily have to even know where it all came from. The same goes for any hylden ruins.

EDIT: BTW, Dark Eden was just an example. I'm sure there are plenty of other places as well.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:39
It doesn't have to be all 8. Maybe they just broke into the laboratory in Dark Eden and started playing with all the toys the triad left behind. They wouldn't necessarily have to even know where it all came from. The same goes for any hylden ruins.

EDIT: BTW, Dark Eden was just an example. I'm sure there are plenty of other places as well.

Great, for me it works! No lore bending, but have some connection with the last games. That would satisfy me.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 23:19
Unless by "kept them alive" you mean actually using his magic to give them immortality I don't see how that would work. Only a extremely succesful organisation can survive a thousand years. In a vampire-infested wasteland even then it would be quite unlikely. And I don't see why all the orders would come to be. Mobius needed to actively engineer history to get his crusade going and he and Malek were actually around in a time of relative peace to build up the legend of the Sarafan. Mortanius and Azimuth had to install someone else as their diety. They themselves did not enjoy such love of the people. The others were also mostly holed up somewhere with their madness.

For the others to have fanatics that life their lives in their name and are able to continuisly recruit new followers unfailingly for thousands of years in spite of the vampires just makes them out to be people they were not.

I mean that a small sect can very well survive in hiding and isolation with only a few dedicated members, think of orders of monks in our own time, and since dark eden has been mentioned as being important to the lore it may very well be conceivable that humans took refuge there as vampires could have avoided the place.

ZeroFernir
6th Oct 2013, 00:09
I mean that a small sect can very well survive in hiding and isolation with only a few dedicated members, think of orders of monks in our own time, and since dark eden has been mentioned as being important to the lore it may very well be conceivable that humans took refuge there as vampires could have avoided the place.

Finally one who understands me!

Denam_Pavel
6th Oct 2013, 10:35
I mean that a small sect can very well survive in hiding and isolation with only a few dedicated members, think of orders of monks in our own time, and since dark eden has been mentioned as being important to the lore it may very well be conceivable that humans took refuge there as vampires could have avoided the place.

Again a small sect doesn't bother me. But there's only so much room in this game, leave room for vampire hunters that weren't inspired by the Blood Omen era Pillar Guardians.

LordNekronom
7th Oct 2013, 13:08
Again a small sect doesn't bother me. But there's only so much room in this game, leave room for vampire hunters that weren't inspired by the Blood Omen era Pillar Guardians.

There is a debate about this in the new classes thread, the thing is, vampire hunters ( Moebius's mercs and the Sarafan ) were fighting a different breed of vampire, vampires in Kain's empire were much stronger, the only way to kill one was by impalement, submersion in water, incineration, decapitation and if he was a fledgeling, sunlight.
Impalement/stake through the heart- we got crossbow
Incineration- bombs and flamethrower
Decapitation- we saw in the trailer a crowsbow bolt beheading a vampire (headshot instant kill)
Sunlight- sky is darkened in this era, maybe certain maps will allow for it to become a hazard
Water- not sure if we have natural water hazards or if they have something like watter balloons/grenades/bottles

The traditional vampire hunters were mostly melee, and in the case of the Sarafan some spellcasters too. Aside from a polearm for impalement any other weapon they employed would be futile as the wounds heal as soon as they are made, that only leaves magic as a weapon, and the holy magic of the Sarafan was lost long ago, that's why the best source humans have is from sects remaining from the old magic 'organizations' and since the Guardians were the most notable sorcerers in the past it makes sense to base new classes on them.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 13:15
There is a debate about this in the new classes thread, the thing is, vampire hunters ( Moebius's mercs and the Sarafan ) were fighting a different breed of vampire, vampires in Kain's empire were much stronger, the only way to kill one was by impalement, submersion in water, incineration, decapitation and if he was a fledgeling, sunlight.
Impalement/stake through the heart- we got crossbow
Incineration- bombs and flamethrower
Decapitation- we saw in the trailer a crowsbow bolt beheading a vampire (headshot instant kill)
Sunlight- sky is darkened in this era, maybe certain maps will allow for it to become a hazard
Water- not sure if we have natural water hazards or if they have something like watter balloons/grenades/bottles

The traditional vampire hunters were mostly melee, and in the case of the Sarafan some spellcasters too. Aside from a polearm for impalement any other weapon they employed would be futile as the wounds heal as soon as they are made, that only leaves magic as a weapon, and the holy magic of the Sarafan was lost long ago, that's why the best source humans have is from sects remaining from the old magic 'organizations' and since the Guardians were the most notable sorcerers in the past it makes sense to base new classes on them.

It was really difficult to kill Kain's minions xD but I think they may add sunlight and water, even thought I think the game would be better without it.

Umbralim
7th Oct 2013, 16:02
There is a debate about this in the new classes thread, the thing is, vampire hunters ( Moebius's mercs and the Sarafan ) were fighting a different breed of vampire, vampires in Kain's empire were much stronger, the only way to kill one was by impalement, submersion in water, incineration, decapitation and if he was a fledgeling, sunlight.
Impalement/stake through the heart- we got crossbow
Incineration- bombs and flamethrower
Decapitation- we saw in the trailer a crowsbow bolt beheading a vampire (headshot instant kill)
Sunlight- sky is darkened in this era, maybe certain maps will allow for it to become a hazard
Water- not sure if we have natural water hazards or if they have something like watter balloons/grenades/bottles


actually there was other way that I recall from blood omen 1, Vampires can be poisoned as i learned the hard way from the mutants of DE and the demons of Avernus, While I can't say if the more, evolved/devolved vampires of nosgoth are still susceptible to that, it would open up another possible weapon for the alchemist class. a poison mist cloud or launching vials of toxic sludge would be an interesting weapon.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 19:47
actually there was other way that I recall from blood omen 1, Vampires can be poisoned as i learned the hard way from the mutants of DE and the demons of Avernus, While I can't say if the more, evolved/devolved vampires of nosgoth are still susceptible to that, it would open up another possible weapon for the alchemist class. a poison mist cloud or launching vials of toxic sludge would be an interesting weapon.

That was a great idea! and not only for alchemists but the scout too, with poisonous arrows.

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 02:18
That was a great idea! and not only for alchemists but the scout too, with poisonous arrows.

Well considering the arrows already impale their victims and they can instant kill ( head shot ) it really isn't necessary to have poisoned or flaming arrows, but a poison bomb, potion (molotov poisons :D :D :D ) is a nice idea.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 02:25
Well considering the arrows already impale their victims and they can instant kill ( head shot ) it really isn't necessary to have poisoned or flaming arrows, but a poison bomb, potion (molotov poisons :D :D :D ) is a nice idea.

yeah, could be done easily (I think) and would give another appeal for the game =P

Psyonix_Corey
8th Oct 2013, 04:43
Arrows aren't insta kill, what you're seeing in the video is a "gib" and it only occurs on killing blows.

There are no one shot kills in Nosgoth.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 12:09
Arrows aren't insta kill, what you're seeing in the video is a "gib" and it only occurs on killing blows.

There are no one shot kills in Nosgoth.

I hope that it seems fair... Because Vampires looks kinda dangerous in close combat, but without one shot kills, humans do not seem too dangerous in ranged...

LOFO1993
8th Oct 2013, 14:06
Arrows aren't insta kill, what you're seeing in the video is a "gib" and it only occurs on killing blows.

There are no one shot kills in Nosgoth.

That's interesting.

As a long time shooting-games players I guess that will turn out to be either a very good or a very bad thing. Please find some balance with the damages, don't make everyone a bullet-sponge nor have this game turn out to be like Modern Warfare 2's online multiplayer (a.k.a. an excessively noob-fliendly mess with overpowered weapons and no dedicated servers).

VVZigel
8th Oct 2013, 14:10
Arrows aren't insta kill, what you're seeing in the video is a "gib" and it only occurs on killing blows.

There are no one shot kills in Nosgoth.

Erm... I know that nowadays we're trying to equalize everything and give everyone a chance, but... I really can't see how any mortal being can survive a direct landing by Turelim brute... It takes less to break a human body than a gorilla-like monster landing on someones head.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 14:17
Erm... I know that nowadays we're trying to equalize everything and give everyone a chance, but... I really can't see how any mortal being can survive a direct landing by Turelim brute... It takes less to break a human body than a gorilla-like monster landing on someones head.

But I think that after that earthquake, it should be 1~2 hits of a turelim to kill one.

VVZigel
8th Oct 2013, 14:40
But I think that after that earthquake, it should be 1~2 hits of a turelim to kill one.

After shockwave? - Sure! No problem! But directly landing on someone's head should be an insta-gib. After all humans are not equal to Nosgoth vampires in either strength or toughness, they compensate things with their wits and numbers.
To spice things up - it would be fair to make everyone vulnerable to such devastating attacks! Even fellow vampires!

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 14:56
After shockwave? - Sure! No problem! But directly landing on someone's head should be an insta-gib. After all humans are not equal to Nosgoth vampires in either strength or toughness, they compensate things with their wits and numbers.
To spice things up - it would be fair to make everyone vulnerable to such devastating attacks! Even fellow vampires!

I think it would not compensate at all, as a lot of humans will be together, and vampires will probably walk alone. Plus I think it already affects vampires.

VVZigel
8th Oct 2013, 15:21
I think it would not compensate at all, as a lot of humans will be together, and vampires will probably walk alone. Plus I think it already affects vampires.

I really doubt that there might be friendly fire at all...
I mean - if devs are aiming at TF 2 experince - we might get those human chemists with bunch of grenades and stuff that destroys everything in the vicinity but you and your team... *shrugs* please don't do that...

And.. when talking about compensation - I meant lore-wise... We've already been told during Q&A that we're going to get equal-sized teams which, in my opinion, isn't good at all! While going for balance is a great and noble goal - people seem to forget that in order for something to be good - something else must be sacrificed... Although so far it seems that humans are going to lose 1vs1 due to the fact that all 3 clans which were revealed to us have some kind of grab-attack... I think we should wait and see.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 15:34
I really doubt that there might be friendly fire at all...
I mean - if devs are aiming at TF 2 experince - we might get those human chemists with bunch of grenades and stuff that destroys everything in the vicinity but you and your team... *shrugs* please don't do that...

And.. when talking about compensation - I meant lore-wise... We've already been told during Q&A that we're going to get equal-sized teams which, in my opinion, isn't good at all! While going for balance is a great and noble goal - people seem to forget that in order for something to be good - something else must be sacrificed... Although so far it seems that humans are going to lose 1vs1 due to the fact that all 3 clans which were revealed to us have some kind of grab-attack... I think we should wait and see.

I agree. But humans advantage is actually to do not go on 1 on 1 because they can range attack.