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CountEyokir
3rd Oct 2013, 11:51
Given that Valeholm was mentioned in the Q and A I thought I'd share the map I came up with for a Nosgoth extended beyond the original borders. I did this because it made it easier for me to understand the lay of the land in my own fanfictions - so you'll see places that weren't in the original lore added because I worked on it myself

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/478240/Kojiokida2



Direct link: http://s12.postimg.org/9esoivp65/Newmap.png


What do you think?

Blasted internet - fixed now so the map is readable

Bazielim
3rd Oct 2013, 19:26
Interesting. Not sure if I'm a fan of the extended bits, but a good job nonetheless.:)

Funnily enough, there are a few map clues coming out from Nosgoth - one is the hinterlands (previously mentioned in SR1 background story) are across the Great Southern Sea. I'm not sure when it's coming, but there is an official map associated with Nosgoth, which puts Valeholm in a very different place.

CountEyokir
3rd Oct 2013, 19:35
Interesting. Not sure if I'm a fan of the extended bits, but a good job nonetheless.:)

Funnily enough, there are a few map clues coming out from Nosgoth - one is the hinterlands (previously mentioned in SR1 background story) are across the Great Southern Sea. I'm not sure when it's coming, but there is an official map associated with Nosgoth, which puts Valeholm in a very different place.

While I am glad to see extended maps of Nosgoth at any time, you'll have to pardon me but as I go forward with my stories I will be treating Nosgoth's lore as an interesting 'what if' story and not part of the actual canon. I just don't think it brings anything to the narrative

Bazielim
3rd Oct 2013, 19:55
Well it's your fan fiction - you can do whatever you want for your conception of the world, but the developers can do the same and because theirs doesn't make that many geographical changes, I'd prefer to follow that one. :)
But like I say, good work nonetheless, it is an interesting interpretation and seems an impressive project, I'm intrigued to read through and see where all these extra bits have come from. :D

Have you seen the maps thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=136108) btw? Pretty much exists for this purpose.

CountEyokir
3rd Oct 2013, 20:02
Well it's your fan fiction - you can do whatever you want for your conception of the world, but the developers can do the same and because theirs doesn't make that many geographical changes, I'd prefer to follow that one. :)
But like I say, good work nonetheless, it is an interesting interpretation and seems an impressive project, I'm intrigued to read through and see where all these extra bits have come from. :D

Have you seen the maps thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=136108) btw? Pretty much exists for this purpose.

Yes I have seen these maps. I was using them for reference. I made most of the extra bits up myself, especially the east, for the development of my 'heritage' story. I'm quite proud of that area actually. Its a sort of mix between Nordic areas, Russia and china and I used it to explain where all the oriental looking vampire hunters from Defiance came from (tied in with a story of William the Just)

Sure game developers can do what they like, nothing is stopping them. But I honestly think I can do better. Not to insult their work....but I can think of a dozen ways they can improve their lore and make it far more meaningful and less thinly spread

Not that I mean to apply offense, if what I hear about you working with the developers to expand the lore is true

MrMilky
3rd Oct 2013, 23:19
Given that Valeholm was mentioned in the Q and A I thought I'd share the map I came up with for a Nosgoth extended beyond the original borders. I did this because it made it easier for me to understand the lay of the land in my own fanfictions - so you'll see places that weren't in the original lore added because I worked on it myself

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/478240/Kojiokida2



Direct link: http://s12.postimg.org/9esoivp65/Newmap.png


What do you think?

Blasted internet - fixed now so the map is readable

I think that you're going to have a bad time with that volcano :] BTW, I like this. I've also read your fanfiction and it's pretty neat.

The_Hylden
4th Oct 2013, 00:03
Please use the Edit Post button, left of the Reply button, instead of double posting, CountEyokir. Thanks.

soulrelic616
4th Oct 2013, 05:54
Sure game developers can do what they like, nothing is stopping them. But I honestly think I can do better. Not to insult their work....but I can think of a dozen ways they can improve their lore and make it far more meaningful and less thinly spread

Not that I mean to apply offense, if what I hear about you working with the developers to expand the lore is true

Ohhh I remember readong a couple of those fan fictions yes, well I found them interesting but I stopped when Raziel came out of the Sword...

But thats only my opinion, there must be lots of people that loved that bit :)

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 06:26
Ohhh I remember readong a couple of those fan fictions yes, well I found them interesting but I stopped when Raziel came out of the Sword...

But thats only my opinion, there must be lots of people that loved that bit :)

Indeed there were, a lot of people who loved the Soul Reaver 3 chapter. If you'd read it though you'd know that Raziel in fact did not come out of the sword. In Defiance, the wraith blade was diffused into Kain to purify him of Nupraptors corruption. As such, I wrote that Raziel was now inside Kain, his long painful destiny in the Reaver blade still perfectly intact.

soulrelic616
4th Oct 2013, 08:36
Indeed there were, a lot of people who loved the Soul Reaver 3 chapter. If you'd read it though you'd know that Raziel in fact did not come out of the sword. In Defiance, the wraith blade was diffused into Kain to purify him of Nupraptors corruption. As such, I wrote that Raziel was now inside Kain, his long painful destiny in the Reaver blade still perfectly intact.

I know, I got past that part, and although I found interesting that Raziel's soul was inside Kain somehow... it just wasn;t sufficent for me to return him to life. As you said Raziel's soul disspated into Kain, purifying him - I'd like to think that Raziel's soul purified Kain and then dissolved as his energy was used to heal Kain once and for all, after all it was a sacrifice that had to be made :).

I thought that your portrayal of the Ancient Vampires was nice though.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 08:54
I know, I got past that part, and although I found interesting that Raziel's soul was inside Kain somehow... it just wasn;t sufficent for me to return him to life. As you said Raziel's soul disspated into Kain, purifying him - I'd like to think that Raziel's soul purified Kain and then dissolved as his energy was used to heal Kain once and for all, after all it was a sacrifice that had to be made :).

I thought that your portrayal of the Ancient Vampires was nice though.

Thanks. But energy can not be destroyed or really used up, just change its form so I thought that the wraith blade would not just disappear but that Raziel's own personality might be still intact. Soul Reaver 3 was spent really dealing the implications of his return and survival. I didn't just bring Raziel back because I liked him as a character and didn't appreciate his sacrifice. I thought there was real benefit to both him as a character, to the narrative as a whole and to the end game scenario I had in my mind. I went out of my way to ensure that the necessity and deeper meaning of his sacrifice at that moment was still intact.

MrMilky
4th Oct 2013, 09:16
Indeed there were, a lot of people who loved the Soul Reaver 3 chapter. If you'd read it though you'd know that Raziel in fact did not come out of the sword. In Defiance, the wraith blade was diffused into Kain to purify him of Nupraptors corruption. As such, I wrote that Raziel was now inside Kain, his long painful destiny in the Reaver blade still perfectly intact.

Which makes sense because Raziel was collecting the fragments of Kains soul in SR1. However, Nupraptor was a medium which intensified the corruption (madness, insanity, "the demons inside us"). Though you may say "his" corruption in terms of story, the original cause is still from the demon side, quite possibly operated by the Hyldens. The cracks in the pillars were possible thanks to the weak human constitution, in the sense of magic which operated the Pillars.

soulrelic616
4th Oct 2013, 10:06
Agree with energy cannot be destroyed, only transferred, that's why I think that Raziel's energy was in fact transferred into Kain but his essence and being were dissipated to cleanse him - but I believe we all have theories about that. I'll give your stories another go once I have a bit of free time :)

Keep it up

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 10:13
Agree with energy cannot be destroyed, only transferred, that's why I think that Raziel's energy was in fact transferred into Kain but his essence and being were dissipated to cleanse him - but I believe we all have theories about that. I'll give your stories another go once I have a bit of free time :)

Keep it up

Thank you and I'm glad to hear you'll keep reading. Believe me, having Raziel return is the least of the things you might raise an eyebrow over. Just keep in mind I won't be taking Nosgoth's lore into account when writing onwards. I feel it has no place.

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 16:14
While I am glad to see extended maps of Nosgoth at any time, you'll have to pardon me but as I go forward with my stories I will be treating Nosgoth's lore as an interesting 'what if' story and not part of the actual canon. I just don't think it brings anything to the narrative

This is something I've been a bit worried about. I'd really hate to see LoK fans treat this game as some unofficial offshoot to the franchise and therefor not include it in "official" continuity. That would be sad and ridiculous. As far as I'm aware, no one who worked on the old games are having anything to do with the franchise anymore. The series must, and thankfully has, carried on without them. Even Amy Hennig. She created a great world and great characters, but she left it too. SE and Psyonix are behind LoK now and what they determine what is canon and what isn't, for better or worse. And I for one trust them.

This is NOT a "what if" story. This is LoK. Cling to the past if you will, but don't deny reality.

I realize, of course, that this whole topic is about the TC's own "what if" LoK stories, so I'm obviously not trying to tell him what to do with those. I'm only speaking of proper canon.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 16:36
This is something I've been a bit worried about. I'd really hate to see LoK fans treat this game as some unofficial offshoot to the franchise and therefor not include it in "official" continuity. That would be sad and ridiculous. As far as I'm aware, no one who worked on the old games are having anything to do with the franchise anymore. The series must, and thankfully has, carried on without them. Even Amy Hennig. She created a great world and great characters, but she left it too. SE and Psyonix are behind LoK now and what they determine what is canon and what isn't, for better or worse. And I for one trust them.

This is NOT a "what if" story. This is LoK. Cling to the past if you will, but don't deny reality.

I realize, of course, that this whole topic is about the TC's own "what if" LoK stories, so I'm obviously not trying to tell him what to do with those. I'm only speaking of proper canon.

What reason have we to do so? The lore subtracts from the dramatic theme and is there simply to give justification for a war that is sorta pointless - written to give this game a reason to exist in the first place. The original team didn't make Blood omen 2 either as still count that as cannon despite its faults. Don't accuse me of clinging to the past and being some blind fan boy who can't let go of the past. I see the Razielim brought out to dance like monkeys around an accordion player before being consigned to oblivion without even the dignity of giving them distinct characters and personalities, name dropped lore in text form. Nosgoth is a 'what if 'story to me as it adds nothings, subtracts from the narrative's overall theme and its utterly pointless. My 'razor of relevance' forbids me from even considering it unless the lore somehow becomes relevant to any characters story. They can easily correct this by actually having a character to experience these events - any character - they can make up one if they like. After that it would be an entirely different story. Until then however- I will be encouraging any fan I talk to not to think of Nosgoth as canon

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 16:58
What reason have we to do so? The lore subtracts from the dramatic theme and is there simply to give justification for a war that is sorta pointless - written to give this game a reason to exist in the first place. The original team didn't make Blood omen 2 either as still count that as cannon despite its faults. Don't accuse me of clinging to the past and being some blind fan boy who can't let go of the past. I see the Razielim brought out to dance like monkeys around an accordion player before being consigned to oblivion without even the dignity of giving them distinct characters and personalities, name dropped lore in text form. Nosgoth is a 'what if 'story to me as it adds nothings, subtracts from the narrative's overall theme and its utterly pointless. My 'razor of relevance' forbids me from even considering it unless the lore somehow becomes relevant to any characters story. They can easily correct this by actually having a character to experience these events - any character - they can make up one if they like. After that it would be an entirely different story. Until then however- I will be encouraging any fan I talk to not to think of Nosgoth as canon

Pretty much everything you've said here shows the lack of perspective one finds in fanboys.

First, humanity trying to reclaim control of their world and their future is anything but pointless. We may know the outcome, but these characters do not. Actually, we don't even know the outcome. We know the world ends up a barren wasteland. That's all. To say this war is pointless is laughable. To Kain and Raziel? Perhaps it is. To Nosgoth and it's denizens? Anything but.

And how exactly are the Razielim "dancing monkeys?" Because you feel the devs are just using them so they can name drop Raz? How narrow minded of you. We know nothing of how this game will disperse it's story. We know very little of this game at all. To speak as if you know everything the game will and won't include is preposterous and makes you look quite silly. The game will be gameplay driven rather than story, but that doesn't mean story and characters with motivation will be absent. We're seeing a very much in-development game and you're criticizing it as if it were a finished product. Classic internet fanboy, indeed.

I know I'm not going to convince you of anything, nor am I trying to. I just hope some other poor reader doesn't take your short-sightedness as truth.

Live in whatever delusion you wish, but Nosgoth IS canon.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 17:11
Pretty much everything you've said here shows the lack of perspective one finds in fanboys.

First, humanity trying to reclaim control of their world and their future is anything but pointless. We may know the outcome, but these characters do not. Actually, we don't even know the outcome. We know the world ends up a barren wasteland. That's all. To say this war is pointless is laughable. To Kain and Raziel? Perhaps it is. To Nosgoth and it's denizens? Anything but.

And how exactly are the Razielim "dancing monkeys?" Because you feel the devs are just using them so they can name drop Raz? How narrow minded of you. We know nothing of how this game will disperse it's story. We know very little of this game at all. To speak as if you know everything the game will and won't include is preposterous and makes you look quite silly. The game will be gameplay driven rather than story, but that doesn't mean story and characters with motivation will be absent. We're seeing a very much in-development game and you're criticizing it as if it were a finished product. Classic internet fanboy, indeed.

I know I'm not going to convince you of anything, nor am I trying to. I just hope some other poor reader doesn't take your short-sightedness as truth.

Live in whatever delusion you wish, but Nosgoth IS canon.

How civil of you to phrase your points as such. I could have called you a sheep accepting anything Kain related after a decade, but I didn't. Such insults ought to beneath us but I am beginning to see a growing frustration with some people that this game is not universally loved by the entire fanbase. But I won't ever suggest such a thing to anyone during my arguments because its petty. Please do try to show similar restraint.
And what characters, precisely? Generic humans vs generic Vampires? Pardon me while I choke back my excitement as I get emotionally invested over set pieces that under ordinary circumstances I would be carving my way through, sucking their blood or eating their souls.

Will I be playing this game? Certainly. Its the first game based in Nosgoth in a decade. Everyone will be playing it at first

Do I think I will be playing it in a few years from now? No, not in the slightest. Unless they pull some major surprises, I think it something to be glanced over before going back to play Soul Reaver 2

Do I think this game will pull in new fans and give us a proper LoK game later on? No. I find that hope wasted and a tad naïve. Of course I have been wrong before, so knock on wood, but thus far I am not convinced.

There are people still today who consider the events of Blood Omen 2 to be non-canon. I think them idiots because it had Kain evolve from the bloody tyrant he was at the end of Blood omen to the somewhat introspective Ruler he was in Soul Reaver. That was a character arc and it gave the events meaning. Nosgoth's lore is there to allow the game to exist. Yes, I feel the Razielim are here purely for namedrop, given I think they are just reskinned versions of that Winged Vampire from Dead Sun.

You do raise a good point however. I do not know all of their proposed lore. As I learn more and more however, what I see is less and less impressive and I sense nothing of great story writing talent. It sounds very much like they were handed set pieces and then went through the wiki to try and make them fit. But I won't accuse them of that, that would be very unprofessional of me.

I simply can not call canon in LoK some lore to justify a meaningless event, especially when I know for a fact I could write it better -- me--- some nobody from olton

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 17:35
I wasn't aware that I was insulting you. Perhaps you're referring to my fanboy comments but you did bring that issue up yourself.

Anyway, you keep bringing up this point that you "could write it better." How is this relevant to anything? There is always someone better suited to any task. The fact is that this team is creating this game, and that's all that matters. For better or worse, this is the official continuation of LoK. To pick and choose which installments to include in the lore is to create one's own continuity, apart from the official canon. Why bother with any of it at that point?

And I think you're wrong about this game not leading to a game more resembling what we've gotten in the past. I think that companies need "models" these days, and the PVP free to play model seemed safe to SE. If this does well, there's lots of other models they can look to for the next installment. I hope that they would look at something like the current Castlevania: Lords of Shadow series for a possible model. Those games are single player, story driven epics that have done pretty well for Konami. But I digress.

You're still referring to the War for Nosgoth as a "meaningless event" which is a shame, as it's clearly not. I think the problem here is that it's just not what you (and many others) were wanting, and are therefor disappointed and perhaps even offended. I've never held to any ideas of what "should" come next for the franchise, so I'm more open to possibilities. I'm a fan of creativity, and I will remain cautiously optimistic of this project until I have good cause not to be.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 17:52
Nobody likes to be called a fanboy. Keep that in mind.

It means nothing because you could just assume it never took place and have the rest of the lore just as intact as before. In the end it doesn't mean anything because it doesn't impact anyone (from a story telling perspective). The only way it could is if, in the next extremely hypothetical game to revisit it with Kain or another main character, but we then get to see it from their point of view - rendering this first game moot because we'd be learning about the lore the way we want to instead of in text scrawls which is not that impressive.

"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." - Zurin Arctus, the Underking

At best, this game is seen by most fans as the sacrificial lamb to revive Kain on the alter of modern gaming (wow that was deeper analogy than I thought) and I suppose it suits its purpose well. Its set in an era of little consequence, featuring no real characters to whom it has consequence and can just as easily be ignored as referenced again by the other possible future games. If it revives the franchise and we get a new actual story, (with Kain we all hope) all well and good and we never have to mention Nosgoth;s existence again.
Personally, I would need more than this to accept this lore as canon. But that's just me. You don't have to agree with me and are perfectly free to consider Nosgoth's lore as canon and I'm sure a lot will. Nothing is stopping you and I certainly won't. I however feel just as free and without consequence to the story to do otherwise and will encounter people to think of better ideas to go there. Watch my next fanfiction as it continues incidentally. I will be tackling the aspect of the humans society in Kain's corrupted future in it. I want to know if what I come up with is better than Nosgoth's ideas. I think they are but it would be unprofessional of me to boast I am better than a game's development team.
Psst, Nosgoth creative team.. you listening? Let me help you, I promise it'll be worth it

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 18:21
It sounds like, to you, the only thing that would make this game worthwhile is if it included a "main" character. Why is that? Nosgoth is a world full of stories to tell apart from Kain and Raz. I'm glad that a game is breaking from Kain-centric ideas. We can reasonably assume that Turel, Dumah, etc. will be present in this game. Are they not main characters? Are you not interested in hearing their untold stories? I know I am. Maybe we will get new "main" characters that are human. The human analogues to the Vampire Lieutenants. We may not play as these characters, but that shouldn't matter as long as they are very present.

With just a bit of imagination there is copious amounts of narrative room for exploration.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 18:26
It sounds like, to you, the only thing that would make this game worthwhile is if it included a "main" character. Why is that? Nosgoth is a world full of stories to tell apart from Kain and Raz. I'm glad that a game is breaking from Kain-centric ideas. We can reasonably assume that Turel, Dumah, etc. will be present in this game. Are they not main characters? Are you not interested in hearing their untold stories? I know I am. Maybe we will get new "main" characters that are human. The human analogues to the Vampire Lieutenants. We may not play as these characters, but that shouldn't matter as long as they are very present.

With just a bit of imagination there is copious amounts of narrative room for exploration.

But you just kinda took up my point there, didn't you see? When I said character I didn't mean just Kain or Raziel, although they would be nice. I meant seeing the events from the POV of ANY character. Lets say we have a mode where we play as Dumah during the human assault on his Ash Village and we get to see exactly how he was stacked on the throne from his perspective. That would be awesome. Seeing events from the eyes of protagonists with depth is EXACTLY what I mean. Without such a character based narrative the lore is still so much speculation. Give me such characters and I will gladly consider Nosgoth's lore canon.

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 18:44
See I don't think we need story from a "main" character's perspective. We didn't get Soul Reaver from Kain's perspective, but still obtained lots of plot from his presence and actions.

I too would love to see Dumah staked to his throne, but seeing the action from a third party perspective would be just as interesting to me. Sort of a man on the ground perspective. I think that's what we may get in Nosgoth.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 18:47
See I don't think we need story from a "main" character's perspective. We didn't get Soul Reaver from Kain's perspective, but still obtained lots of plot from his presence and actions.

I too would love to see Dumah staked to his throne, but seeing the action from a third party perspective would be just as interesting to me. Sort of a man on the ground perspective. I think that's what we may get in Nosgoth.

Somehow I don't think the 'man on the ground' approach will work that well because what possible connection would anyone we learn lore about have to them? How relatable are the characters we meet going to be if we aren't playing or involved with someone to whom it would mean something? This would build wonderfully if they had some characters with some personalities who set up some new and distinct things that we get to experience in a later game, set after Soul Reaver. See what I mean?

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 18:54
Somehow I don't think the 'man on the ground' approach will work that well because what possible connection would anyone we learn lore about have to them? How relatable are the characters we meet going to be if we aren't playing or involved with someone to whom it would mean something? This would build wonderfully if they had some characters with some personalities who set up some new and distinct things that we get to experience in a later game, set after Soul Reaver. See what I mean?

I can only reiterate that I think a story told from a third person perspective could be just as good as one told from a first person perspective, which is pretty much all we've ever got from LoK.

Say the devs introduce a human General whom we come to know through the eyes of his squadron. This General character can be as fleshed out as the devs care to make him, with motivations, ideas, hopes and regrets, etc. We learn even more about him from what commands he gives us as his army. What battles he sends us on, etc. We don't need to see the story from his point of view to get to know him as a character that can be reused henceforth, no more than we did a character like Janos or Vorador.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 18:55
I can only reiterate that I think a story told from a third person perspective could be just as good as one told from a first person perspective, which is pretty much all we've ever got from LoK.

Say the devs introduce a human General whom we come to know through the eyes of his squadron. This General character can be as fleshed out as the devs care to make him, with motivations, ideas, hopes and regrets, etc. We don't need to see the story from his point of view to get to know him as a character that can be reused henceforth, no more than we did a character like Janos or Vorador.

YES! Do this! Agree! Can't agree more! Playing as that character isn't 100% necessary, just having them THERE and viewable, relatable, the events having consequence for them is exactly what I mean! The story can go from there

MrMilky
4th Oct 2013, 21:12
I'm glad that a game is breaking from Kain-centric ideas. We can reasonably assume that Turel, Dumah, etc. will be present in this game. Are they not main characters?
For a reminder, Kains story didn't come to a conclusion.

It is, after all, legacy of Kain. And, no, they're not main characters. For the purpose of the background story, effectively called lore we may make a distinction between narrative storytelling and lore itself.

One of the purposes in gaming, aside from experiencing and interacting in every single thing or from the point of every creature, is effective imagination and personal impression of how such things would be, effectively called fanfiction if they go on the paper in a written form.

So, no, playing many stories before finishing the main one isn't really proper. That's why Nosgoth's effectively referred to as "spinoff".