View Full Version : Nosgoth's place in the genre

1st Oct 2013, 02:28
Amazing how many people can’t get there head away from MMO tropes. Have they never seen online action games before? Apparently they played a few games for the cutscenes in their teens and have been grinding in MMORPGs ever since. Hasn’t anybody heard of Left 4 Dead, Star Wars: Battlefront, Splinter Cell: Blacklist (Spies vs. Mercs), Crysis 3 (Hunter Mode), Natural Selection II? These are the games that rang in my mind when I saw that trailer.

Everyone is asking petty lore questions. I care about that stuff too, but almost nobody has asked interesting questions about mechanics, or made comparisons to other third person shooters/ team arena games. It’s as if the quality of the game is reliant entirely on aesthetic details. Wouldn't you forgive the skin texture of the Razielim if they starred in an exciting, tense, varied, satisfying, atmospheric shooter, that stood up to the better games of the genre, that was a blast to play and attracted new fans to the world of Nosgoth? Would you forgive a ****ty game if only they got the size of the ears right? Priorities, guys

It was great to hear you say in the live stream you wanted modes that make sense in the world eg. no capture the flag, because vampires running around with flags taking them to arbitrary glowing points is nonsense. But how far are you willing to take this?

The main sacrifice arena shooters (as fun as they can be) have always made compared to single player games is that of a believable world that feels bigger than the map, or a believable conflict bigger than the match, basically any level of immersion. Nothing has context. Then, everything is repeated ad nauseam until nowhere feels like a place and only feels like a level. Now what is the point of using what you say is a rich world full of stories waiting to be told when it is wasted on that sort of genre?

Have you guys seen Titanfall? There is a game that really seems to take multiplayer shooters to the next level, aesthetically.


They start the match with a short in-game sequence (with some story relevance, perhaps?). The match doesn’t end by kicking you immediately to a scores screen, but actually asks you to retreat from the conflict by rushing to your helicopter. I’d bet that objectives aren't the typical arbitrary stuff either, but probably make sense based on the theme, the story, and the specific map you are fighting on, to make it feel not like a fight for it’s own sake but a battle as part of a war. Isn't that the sort of feeling you want to convey? And doesn't that also offer the opportunity to make not just characters and maps based on the lore, but events too, stories on a small scale? Doesn't that make it worth setting the game in Nosgoth?

Speaking about richer levels: I remember somebody talk about weather systems (perhaps vampires hurt by sunlight, have to find shelter when sun comes out) being taken out of the game. I think this is a damn shame. How much that would add to the game: further asymmetry, complexity; it ties in nicely to the theme and is even a direct echo from Soul Reaver; it adds atmosphere; it makes these levels dynamic, realistic, part of a world. If these effects were semi-random, that would also be realistic and make each match a little different, give a little needed variety to the genre: the unexpected is exciting, and is another thing to plan for or to fear/look forward to.

These are just a few of the ideas I believe are going to drag me in an absorb me, make me play Nosgoth over one of the many other titles in the genre. It would keep me interested until I am ready to commit to learning the games ins and outs.

For when it gets to that point, I wonder how much there is to get your teeth into in the fights. Other games have commander roles, structure building, destructible environments, vehicles, weapon swapping/upgrades in-match, killstreaks, and so on. Is there more to Nosgoth? Or can the game be carried solely on the depth of class interactions and loadouts (like, I supposed Team Fortress 2 is)?

Psyonix seem to have a pretty decent history, so I have some hope for this. But I’m not entirely convinced yet. When are we going to see another trailer?

1st Oct 2013, 10:01
Welcome to the forum, Sam250.

Please try to be more understanding to other people's feelings on the game. What may be an irrelevant detail to you, may be a crucial lore aspect to long time fans.

Differences of opinions are fine - it makes for interesting discussions. As long as we all keep in mind that those priorities you speak of can be highly subjective ;)

1st Oct 2013, 23:59
I wish we could allow Psyonix some creative freedom. We've seen Silicon Knights' Nosgoth we've seen Crystal Dynamics' Nosgoth, both pretty different styles. Now perhaps we could allow Psyonix, who have their own artists with their own styles, skills and tastes ect. to make their version of Nosgoth.

They have a lot of considerations to make, for example how it fits into this different style of game, how it works with their different art style, how it will appeal to a new market, and so on. They are the ones who have breathed this game for two years and have experimented and refined: it's quite likely they have made models of big eared, clawed vampires and judged that it doesn't work for them. But everyone in the Vampire Redesigns thread, who are working with less information, think they can bully the developers into designing according to snap judgements and aping a game made by different people in a different time.

I for one will be disappointed with Psyonix if they submit to fan pressure and make decisions by mob rule rather than following their own rational judgements.

2nd Oct 2013, 00:40
You're talking as if we're all screaming and yelling in this massive mosh pit of hatred. The redesign thread is very civil compared to some things I've seen said about this game (Indeed, more civil than your dismissing us as bullies). We're making these suggestions because we care about this game, and we want it to do well. I have no doubt the gameplay will be solid, and indeed it seems many others feel the same. LOK is a very story heavy series, and seeing many of these minor details missing is disheartening. I could go on, but please, don't write us off as bullies and trolls. We care about this game as much as you do, and in some cases, possibly even more.

2nd Oct 2013, 03:23
I for one will be disappointed with Psyonix if they submit to fan pressure and make decisions by mob rule rather than following their own rational judgements.

Well, they're making this game a more open type of experience, one that asks for actual feedback and, as best they can, they have said they will try to accommodate suggestions. The very model of the game is one, as stated by them, which will "never really end," meaning that they'll constantly try and improve it, both to the world of Nosgoth in how it fits, and in the gameplay plays. They're asking for what the majority wants and now, yes, they might be discussing implementing the changes to the vampires. They wanted feedback on everything, especially when they asked the group of us to preview the game, and a lot of the feedback we gave on visual differences has been echoed by the fanbase. You're barking up the wrong tree on accusing them of possibly and suddenly bending their will to the "mob," if they do indeed decide to implement suggestions from the fans that they started out asking for. You're also, very much so, lumping in all who have voiced anything regarding changes the same as those who've vented how they hate everything about the game and will never play it, etc., etc. And this is just not the case.

What I've heard happened in the Q&A is as far removed from sensible fans expressing concerns as you can get.

2nd Oct 2013, 08:23
There's some pretty rabid fans out there at the moment, but they're usually either:
A.) Just learning about the game now, and aren't hearing the whole truth/haven't learned anything about it, or
B.) Refuse to see the lore as it is, rather than they assume it to be.
Trolls don't get to be in the "fan" category, for being trolls.

Fortunately, option B is less common, in my experience.

4th Oct 2013, 01:44
The really important question: this game will have hats, right?