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ReccsVampire
30th Sep 2013, 19:25
EDIT 2014.03.04. (http://www.nosgoth.com/blog/vampire-clan-evolved-skins-the-tyrant-of-clan-turelim): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs

I figured this deserves its own thread. I feel I'm not the only one with concerns as to the looks of the vampire characters; they just don't look like the vampires we so love. The issue has been briefly touched upon in the stream as well, but no specifics were given. The devs are "looking into it," but I think it would be nice to keep a thread going so that they can see that it's an important issue and they don't push it back.

Remember that the game is in pre-alpha: this is the perfect time to get the little things out of the way, before they start making all the complex animations for models/rigs that we don't like. Let the devs know you want change by posting here to show your support!

The following are my personal opinion. Please, do post yours. If you like the vampire designs, please explain why.

The simple:

Three fingers on each hand, two toes on each foot. This is the staple of Nosgoth's vampires, and it would be a shame to lose it now. In the stream they said that the vampires in the game have five digits because they're not as (d)evolved as their sires, but I'm not buying that (and neither should you).
The Turelim need bigger ears. In the SR1 intro cinematic, Turel himself had big/"batlike" ears. They don't need to be oversized like the complete devolved Turel(im)'s, but at least make them noticable. Don't make the Turelim simple all-muscle brutes; make them look like the Turelim we know and recognise!


The complex:

The Turelim were large in SR1, and Turel himself was huge in Defiance. But they were also lean. They were tall and their shoulders were broad, but otherwise they were relatively slim. The Turelim we've been shown are absolutely humongous in all dimensions. They should be leaner, with less emphasis on the lover body. Their bodies should have a vague "V" shape rather than being the towers of flesh they are now.
On the contrary, the Dumahim we've seen in SR1 were all bulky and hunchbacked. The Dumahim in Nosgoth are the exact opposite of that with ther slender build and straight backs. Something should be done there: surely a fine balance can be struck.



The ugly:

And the big issue, the Razielim. The stream gave no answers as to why they're so devolved. By previous canon, Raziel, and therefore his clan, received the biggest portion of Kain's "gift," and so they should be the last to start deteriorating, not the first.
Remember that the Melchiahim, who had the smallest portion, were absolutely the most devastated by the devolution, with each successive clan being a little more humanlike. Contrast the Zephonim with SR1's Turelim.
I'm reserving judgement here: I'm certain that the devs have thought up some kind of justification for the rapid devolution of the Razielim, and I'm certain they'll explain it away somehow, but it begs the question: why? Why not just make them more human, like the other clans are?
EDIT: Regarding the "Razielim devolve first" theory. It's been said that since the Razielim evolved first, it stands to reason that they would devolve first as well. In itself it is a sound argument, but has things going against it.
**First and foremost, this is pure speculation; based on what we know right now, it could go either way.
**Secondly, assuming this is right, since the Razielim have wings already, they should definitely have "vampire talons" as opposed to human hands/feet. There is simply no excuse for not having them.
**More on talons further down.
EDIT: The Razielim's wings are also plain wrong. They look and move nothing like Raziel's. Please fix this.


In conclusion, the Razielim should be more humanlike, while the others should be a bit less humanlike. And we absolutely need the talons back.

EDIT: Regarding the talons:


I remember having a conversation with Bill and he mentioned that they had several meetings regarding the fingers - and one of the main points in keeping the vampires 5 fingered is to appeal to new generations of gamers.


The developers keep on saying they will do whatever they can to keep close to the lore; well, this is a perfect chance to show they mean that. These petty design choices are just making the vampires look more "mainstream", but it won't really change nothing in terms of success of the game and, on the contrary, will piss off the fans. Please be reasonable, this would be a really bad message to send to the fanbase. Refusing to change something as small and painless as ears shape because "it wouldn't appeal to the new public" would just be the worst beginning possible.
It's been said that the devs decided to go for five digits (and human ears) because they don't want to alienate newcomers with vampires that might look unfamiliar to them. I firmly believe that this "appealing to a wider audience" garbage is what's killing videogames right now. If Legacy of Kain goes down that road, I -- and many other "old fans" -- will be sorely disappointed.

Let's be honest here: Nosgoth has only a tangential connection to the LoK series, at best. We all know this. Please consider that the talons/ears probably won't be a dealbreaker for any newcomer, but it will be a turnoff for any older fan they want to lure in. The gameplay will be nothing like old titles, I get that, but if the devs are really trying to tell us that they care for the franchise and the old fans, than they'd better get these little nuances down pat. Otherwise there will be nothing of LoK left in this game.

EDIT: On the subject of "unlockable/achievement" talons and ears:
This is my personal opinion here again, but I have a serious issue with this idea. If the vampire talons are buy-only (for real world currency, in the spirit of League of Legends "skins"), then I feel that is a spit in the face for all of us. "So you want your vamp to look the way he should look by default? Well pay up!" Please, do not do this.

If it were up to me, I'd make the "5 digit" version default (so you don't "alienate new players") but I'd have the talons available for free. Some others have also proposed that they could be earned through an achievement or "leveling" system (symbolising your vampire's (d)evolution).




We complain because we care!


PS. I personally really dig the human designs. Love the masks!

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 19:30
As for the Turellim, I really feel like that's a super minor hang-up people are having about the ears. With all the complaining, they'll probably change it, but there's some serious upset people because those ears are serious business.

Vampmaster
30th Sep 2013, 19:39
I've brought up the ears number of times because I think the clans should be recognisable for their distinguishing features. I'm not expecting them to be as devolved as the ones you fought in SR1, but even in the intro, the Lieutenants had already started to show some of their features. Rahab had scales, Melchiah had stitches and saggy skin, and Turel had elongated ears. Those features are their trademarks that set them apart from vampires in other franchises.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 19:55
And this I understand, but a dude actually sent me a threatening message over youtube for telling him cosmetic changes to the character models would probably happen if it's asked for enough, and it wasn't that big of a deal. Those ears, man. Some mega serious business, apparently. They are apparently that big of a deal. :scratch:

LOFO1993
30th Sep 2013, 20:32
I agree with all you wrote, except maybe the fingers part. I know three fingers and two toes are LoK vampires stample, but I honestly don't know if they would actually fit with how actually little degenerated these vampires look. I mean, if the razielim will still be more or less like he is right now he should absolutely have his fingers changed, but looking at the dumahim or at the turelim... I mean, they are still quite human, they didn't change much more than the vampires we see in Blood Omen 2 did, and those all had 5 fingers.

However, yes, the turelim and the dumahim should definitely go through a heavy physical revision. Dumahims look quite generic and uninspired in particular, I think it would be more appropriate if they were larger and shorter, maybe a bit hunch-backed already. And the turelim needs to be slimmer. It's alright it's strong and very tall, but not that large, that's absolutely right: http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/_images/_medium/Turelim_1.jpg

Vanyelxp5
30th Sep 2013, 21:18
I figured this deserves its own thread. I feel I'm not the only one with concerns as to the looks of the vampire characters; they just don't look like the vampires we so love. The issue has been briefly touched upon in the stream as well, but no specifics were given. The devs are "looking into it," but I think it would be nice to keep a thread going so that they can see that it's an important issue and they don't push it back.

Remember that the game is in pre-alpha: this is the perfect time to get the little things out of the way, before they start making all the complex animations for models/rigs that we don't like. Let the devs know you want change by posting here to show your support!

The following are my personal opinion. Please, do post yours. If you like the vampire designs, please explain why.

The simple:

Three fingers on each hand, two toes on each foot. This is the staple of Nosgoth's vampires, and it would be a shame to lose it now. In the stream they said that the vampires in the game have five digits because they're not as (d)evolved as their sires, but I'm not buying that (and neither should you).
The Turelim need bigger ears. In the SR1 intro cinematic, Turel himself had big/"batlike" ears. They don't need to be oversized like the complete devolved Turel(im)'s, but at least make them noticable. Don't make the Turelim simple all-muscle brutes; make them look like the Turelim we know and recognise!


The complex:

The Turelim were large in SR1, and Turel himself was huge in Defiance. But they were also lean. They were tall and their shoulders were broad, but otherwise they were relatively slim. The Turelim we've been shown are absolutely humongous in all dimensions. They should be leaner, with less emphasis on the lover body. Their bodies should have a vague "V" shape rather than being the towers of flesh they are now.
On the contrary, the Dumahim we've seen in SR1 were all bulky and hunchbacked. The Dumahim in Nosgoth are the exact opposite of that with ther slender build and straight backs. Something should be done there: surely a fine balance can be struck.



The ugly:

And the big issue, the Razielim. The stream gave no answers as to why they're so devolved. By previous canon, Raziel, and therefore his clan, received the biggest portion of Kain's "gift," and so they should be the last to start deteriorating, not the first.
Remember that the Melchiahim, who had the smallest portion, were absolutely the most devastated by the devolution, with each successive clan being a little more humanlike. Contrast the Zephonim with SR1's Turelim.
I'm reserving judgement here: I'm certain that the devs have thought up some kind of justification for the rapid devolution of the Razielim, and I'm certain they'll explain it away somehow, but it begs the question: why? Why not just make them more human, like the other clans are?



In conclusion, the Razielim should be more humanlike, while the others should be a bit less humanlike. And we absolutely need the talons back.

PS. I personally really dig the human designs. Love the masks!

I agree with most of what you're saying, but you're a little backwards in regard to the evolution/degeneration thing. The more powerful vampires evolved first (Up to their highest evolution/lowest devolution) Kain reached his final phase of development before the Soul Reaver intro. Raziel then evolved further, seemingly before Kain, but as Kain wasn't evolving anymore, it was actually well after. (This fact extrapolated from the simple truth that Kain doesn't change at all between the SR intro, and when you confront him later.)

Melchiah's portion of The Dark Gift was so weak that his body was rotting, thus he had to consume more than just the blood of his victims, and even had to sew their skins onto his own body. His clan had to do the same.

So, the Razielim would be the first clan to evolve/devolve, followed by the Turelim, and then the Dumahim. Not sure which would come next (don't remember which was the next "born" after Dumah, but it's either Rahab, or Zephon.) but the last "born" was Melchiah. So while his clan would be the last to evolve/devolve... As stated, they still underwent severe decomposition.

RainaAudron
30th Sep 2013, 21:24
I think he got it right - it was because the portion of Kain´s soul was largest starting with Raziel and descending, they would keep the most humanoid features the most and the least for Zephon/Melchiah.

Vanyelxp5
30th Sep 2013, 21:37
The only one of the lieutenants that was still humanoid when you fought him was Dumah... and being 12 feet tall and built a truck that ate a train for breakfast isn't very humanlike...

soulrelic616
30th Sep 2013, 21:41
Apologies if I am late to this guys - I very much agree with the details on this thread, in fact it was my main concern after seeing were the art direction was going and after playing the game at the community event - please find a copy of a previous thread about this I created earlier this month:






Still not happy with five fingers and round ears but that is something as mentioned cannot be fixed due to models, right?



Regarding the Turelim's ears, that's not really an excuse. It can't be that hard to cover them up with a separate mesh which is not part of the character model.

I have to agree with Vampmaster on this, besides those details are very dear to us LoK fans, I remember having a conversation with Bill and he mentioned that they had several meetings regarding the fingers - and one of the main points in keeping the vampires 5 fingered is to appeal to new generations of gamers - question is, why would 3 fingered vampires be less appealing to this generation gamers?

We also spoke about the pointy ears, and he mentioned that they tried to put pointy ears on the characters (so, this models would actually have been created, wouldn't they?) but the characters looked too "elvish - like" or too "fantasy- like", but this keeps me wondering, I mean the vampires we have seen in Nosgoth look way too menacing to look elvish and way too vampiric to look even like orcs or trolls; just look at the very known Glyphx Lieutenant models:






(I honestly love how suiting are these ear type for Turel - and I really beliueve they would suit the Turelim vampire we have seen in Nosgoth)


(Yep still looks like a vampire)

The fingers are also a detail that is indeed very dear to us fans - I don't really mind five fingered Vampires as we all know they have to reach a certain age to develop these claws, but particulary the Razielim vampire seems far too devolved not to have the three claws, even the weakest devolved Melchiahim vampires we saw in SR had them:

http://www.legacyofkain.it/app/MelchahimF1.jpg

I personally don't think the three fingers would make the Vampires any less real or menacing, in fact they would make them look even more terrifying IMHO...

Just as an example , check this clay model for a three clawed hand made by fans some years ago:



Another detail I was not a 100% convinced was why they cannot feed with telekinesis, even Kain as a fledgling vampire had this gift and as those named above, is a detail that we feel is really dear to the series and lore... and with popular series like True Blood showing this to the general public I think newcomers to the series would actually like a lot to see that in Nosgoth...

o14hOFERrUo

I know the developers are trying to show Nosgoth with a more grounded "realistic" vision - but Nosgoth was and has always been a fantasy set world - the devs should allow some fantasy elements to be applied to the designs... I am sure including them will not affect the game being appealing to newcomers and in fact might make Nosgoth even more interesting to potential players...

Let me know what you think guys :)

Wraithblade6
30th Sep 2013, 21:53
All this is good. I second the above pics. I also want to say I am on the opposite end of the spectrum on degree of devolution; the current models are TOO devolved and monsterous. ... or maybe just fix the Razielim's faces. Actually, yes, that would make me happy.

The_Hylden
30th Sep 2013, 22:32
Agreed on most of the points above.

Note: Kain is said to still be evolving, just not showing outward physically. So, he most likely has changed with more power/abilities since the SR1 intro. The man was already a walking arsenal, so it's hard to imagine, but yes he probably has.

I definitely think they ran a bit too much with concluding from Raziel's wings that he must be the first devolving and his higher power somehow equals a faster devolution track, when the SR1 vampires and Raziel's own statements on the matter prove otherwise. With that said, I think a lot of the perception going around on how devolved the Raielim are is do to their mask and clothing looking almost melded into their flesh, or it being hard to distinguish from flesh to clothing at at times. What we see of their face is a scowling snarl. It's an otherwise mostly human scowling snarl. It's entirely possible that underneath the mask lies a more humanoid face.

The hands, feet, and definitely the Alien exoskeleton on the wings are far more devolved and inconsistent than need be -- and I am for the tri claws and two toes. I mean the grotesqueness of the hands and feet as shown is a bit much. And there's no reason for their wings to have devolved like this, looking like Giger fantasy art, instead of the multi-fingered bat wings we knew from Raziel, growing from lower in the back. The one skin with more finger bones to the wings looks better, but still not it. Definitely a no on the Wraith-blue ruined looking Razielim in the third skin. No idea why they put that in there.


Those Turelim ears are important, but all of the ears are, too. All vampires from conception have been shown to have them. You make them known that they are not Orcs or Elves by their very nature and how you present them. Nosgoth is not the only version of vampires to ever have pointy ears, lol. It doesn't make sense to say people won't be able to distinguish them as vampires.

Vampmaster
30th Sep 2013, 22:32
Now that I've seen the Raziel wearing interchangable masks, I can reiterate my statement about the Turelim ears. It can't be any harder to attach ears to the Turelim than a mask to the Razielim. I wouldn't be suprised if there was custom headgear for all enemy types, so why not just make the ears the default attachment for the Turelim?

Paradoks_db
30th Sep 2013, 22:39
I agree with most arguments in the original post.
A few observations though. I think that evolution should be a process taking place and nearing it's end before devolution. Nosgoth takes place quite a while after SR1 intro, and at that time I think "classic" features like fingers, Turelim ears and other should be present among all vampires. If not (and that's unreasonable), then at least Razielim should have their claws right. They got their wings and are at stage of devolution so they should have gained these basic traits much earlier.
About the time frame of devolution. I can understand that Razielim would be the first to devolve because if they evolve faster (like Raziel did) then they should devolve earlier as well. However their description says that they are "prone to decay". That's a problem. Like I said earlier on Eidos forums, devolution does is not equal to decay. In this case we know that Melchiah and his clan were prone to decay because they were the weakest. Raziel's clan in this regard is on the opposite side of the spectrum. So Razielim's devolution is understandable, their decay is not.

LOFO1993
30th Sep 2013, 22:45
I remember having a conversation with Bill and he mentioned that they had several meetings regarding the fingers - and one of the main points in keeping the vampires 5 fingered is to appeal to new generations of gamers - question is, why would 3 fingered vampires be less appealing to this generation gamers?

It doesn't make much sense, IMHO. I mean, why should it ever make a difference? I bet half the players won't even notice how many fingers the vampires have. I can see a bit more why the developers were afraid of having too pointy ears, but nonetheless I think that's exactly the kind of small risk someone who really wants to be true to the series has to take.


The developers keep on saying they will do whatever they can to keep close to the lore; well, this is a perfect chance to show they mean that. These petty design choices are just making the vampires look more "mainstream", but it won't really change nothing in terms of success of the game and, on the contrary, will piss off the fans. Please be reasonable, this would be a really bad message to send to the fanbase. Refusing to change something as small and painless as ears shape because "it wouldn't appeal to the new public" would just be the worst beginning possible.


Please understand a lot of LoK fans are having a real hard time accepting this whole new game (non necessarily speaking of myself here), but most of them are doing their best anyway to get over the changes you are forcing on them. Try making some small sacrifices in return to let them see that what they think and what they say actually matter and will really be kept into consideration, as long as it's reasonable and definitively not hard for you to accomplish.

Lord_Aevum
30th Sep 2013, 22:48
I back up all of the above and especially Ber's points. To be brutally honest, I think the character art direction is not sufficient for a Legacy of Kain game, and wish it were pushed several orders of magnitude closer in style to Soul Reaver. These models don't remind me of the vampires established in the original at all, and I really think that's a net negative for the project. Taking cues from Boyd Lake and Daniel Cabuco's classic designs would be the ideal place to start.

Anansios
30th Sep 2013, 22:49
Some good points, but...

I think a great compromise would be to have more 'devolved ' skins and models unlock as vampires progress through the levels. Conserves resources and allows a future direction for the art department.

Humans look amazing, btw!
I'm under the opinion that Raziel was the first to mutate a devolution/evolution and he was the first lieutenant. It would stand to reason that Turel would be next, then Dumah and last Melchiah. (Rahab4 Zehpon5?) The clan should likely follow that order. If Raziel is sprouting random appendages first, maybe his clan might have things happen first. Rewatch the SR1 intro, it isn't far-fetched.
Remember Melchiah was rotting because he received the least of Kain's soul, not because he was 'devolving'; Melchiah was Always that way. The first encounters with Melchiahim reveals that info.

We never actually saw any vampires besides Kain and his lieutenants. There is room for creativity. How does a vampire look before it is 1000yrs old? We know how vampires looked after Raziel was resurrected, and that was 500-1000yrs later. Liuetenents were around 2000yrs old.

Maybe high level players would have access to cloven clawed models? That would be a mighty incentive.

Dumahim: they were smaller than Turelim and bulkier than Melchiahim. Rahabim were fairly large and Zephonim were lanky. Don't forget that even Kain uses stealth. Remember Mist and sneaking up on people? Vampires are vulnerable and always used stealth to sneak up on their prey. I don't have a problem with the Dumahim form.

People seem to forget how tough the Turelim were in SR1. When you face them, you, Raziel, are at maximum power. Turelim can take much more of a beating than Dumahim.
- 5 fingers is what all vampires start with, even Kain. In the SR1 intro, 1000yrs had passed. "I have served Kain a millennium"-Raziel Do any of us know how long it takes to switch from 5 fingers to 3 claws? I think the 3 Claws is cool and iconic, but I won't pretend to know when that switch actually happens. We never saw a 'newborn' vampire, so I would give them slack.

Ambusher
30th Sep 2013, 22:49
I totally agree with all of that.
As I said here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7196&page=3&p=67801#post67801), the deal is also in Razielim wings. Not even with point where they situated on back, but whole animation. There's great concept arts by Daniel Cabuco that showing how it should to be: one (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoKSeries/Images/Symbols-SR-Raziel_Wing-01.JPG), two (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoKSeries/Images/Symbols-SR-Raziel_Wing-02.JPG).

LOFO1993
30th Sep 2013, 22:53
I totally agree with all of that.
As I said here (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7196&page=3&p=67801#post67801), the deal is also in Razielim wings. Not even with point where they situated on back, but whole animation. There's great concept arts by Daniel Cabuco that showing how it should to be: one (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoKSeries/Images/Symbols-SR-Raziel_Wing-01.JPG), two (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoKSeries/Images/Symbols-SR-Raziel_Wing-02.JPG).


Yes, I totally agree, the razielim flight was one of the thinks that convinced me the least when I watched the video. It didn't remind me of Raziel at all.

Anacrothe
30th Sep 2013, 23:31
I gotta admit the first thing I noticed was how the Dumahim and the Turelim were "exchanged" in terms of appearance. I would've thought that the Dumahim were the big ones.

Zimitry
30th Sep 2013, 23:52
I agree ith everything. Now, how much they are evolved depends on how many time passed since Raziel was thrown into the abyss (ince by the time he emerged they were totally devolved), and in each individual's age.

I think they should feature different ranks of vampires, 2 or even three. It would go from fledgling (five fingers, and white but almot human, like Kain in BO2, because as we know, he was a fledgling back then), to fully devolved (featuring three claws, big ears, etc, respectively, yet not as devolved as in SR1m of course).

Tuyrelims have a face that would fit with the most devolved state, dumahims are total fledglings, and Razielims are totally devolved, except that wings are still a lore breaking, no excuse about that (the only reason they had to do it, was to please casuals, something like "hey look, you can play flying vampires, cool huh?").

Reidbynature
30th Sep 2013, 23:53
I gotta admit the first thing I noticed was how the Dumahim and the Turelim were "exchanged" in terms of appearance. I would've thought that the Dumahim were the big ones.

Turelim were always bigger and tougher.

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 00:10
To those who have said the Turelim we've seen in this game are only fledglings, how do you explain that their size and facial features are that of a more evolved version, but Turel himself in the SR1 intro still has a human face and while tall for a human he's not abnormally so.

Vanyelxp5
1st Oct 2013, 00:25
Turelim were always bigger and tougher.

Turelim were more beastlike, and yes, that made them bigger, but tougher? In the game they were because the Dumahim were the first things you ran into, and there were more things around to kill them with.

But between Dumah and Turel? Turel was still bigger, but you needed a blast furnace and explosive gas to kill Dumah.... You beat Turel in a mostly straight up fight. That doesn't sound like he's tougher to me.

Anansios
1st Oct 2013, 00:33
To those who have said the Turelim we've seen in this game are only fledglings, how do you explain that their size and facial features are that of a more evolved version, but Turel himself in the SR1 intro still has a human face and while tall for a human he's not abnormally so.

Would you care to tackle why Rahab had no legs and Rahabim still did?
Zehpon had... *indescribable* features and his clan did not?
Turel was a quadraped and Turelim were bipedal. Turel didn't appear until Defiance. Who know how he may have looked in SR1.

There were some major differences between clan leaders and their spawn. Would you at least agree with that part?

We never saw a single vampire besides Kain and his lieutenants until Raziel reawakened.
SR1 left a lot of gaps in the hundreds of years that happened between Raziel's execution and resurrection.

Anansios
1st Oct 2013, 00:52
But between Dumah and Turel? Turel was still bigger, but you needed a blast furnace and explosive gas to kill Dumah.... You beat Turel in a mostly straight up fight. That doesn't sound like he's tougher to me.

A straight up fight? Turel was being possessed by Hylden, he was a captive in a pit, and we used soundwaves to disorrient him enough to kill. You couldn't hurt Dumah, but you couldn't hurt any of your brothers. Turel was the only one. Turel was also the only one to be warped away. Who knows how old Turel is there.

Turelim were large and tough. By then you had the soul reaver, glyphs and a lot more health. YouTube has vids so you can see the difference. Turel was the 2nd 'son'.

The_Hylden
1st Oct 2013, 00:55
Turelim are the toughest enemy in SR1, yes. They are bigger and stronger than any other enemy, and either the fastest, or as fast as the Zephonim, making two of them attacking you an actual problem to deal with. I would not recommend attacking them without a weapon to impale them. The Dumahim were made the weakest, or on par with the Melchiahim in SR1; however that was mostly because they were the first enemy you face (and they are everywhere, and their explanation is they've become scattered and less of what they were since their leader was staked and their home overrun by the humans).

I don't think you've seen Vampmaster's point, Anansios. The Turelim in the face are already devolving, so they should have been alive long enough to already evolve the classic features...

LordNekronom
1st Oct 2013, 03:18
The biggest problem here, in my opinion is with the Razielim, the Turelim are the ones to take the most punishment in SR1 so they are good at their roles and advanced telekinesis and large ears can be attributed to higher forms of evolution, but spiky ears are early vampire traits, even fledgeling kain is depicted with them as are all the vampires in blood omen (though dlc or cosmetics for the larger ears are a very good idea ) , and the Dumahim are the common balanced warrior class, the tower like builds they have in SR1 can be attributed to (de)volution from this war itself where they become adapt to the conditions, but the Razielim are just thrown in there.
Here are the Razielim problems:
1 wings should be on the lower back not like they are now. (Raziel in SR1 cinematic)
2 they are already well on their way in transformation, they should have 3 talons on hand 2 on feet.
3 they are too grotesque when compared to the other clans and should at least have a skin option for fair skin to make them look similar to Raziel before the fall
4 they were supposed to be spellcasters of the vampire clans as far as the lore goes, here they are vicious scouting monsters, more brute beast than vampire mage. ( and please don't use the they are too beastly and grotesque to cast magic excuse, all of the other clans developed their traits and incorporated them into their monstrous forms, like Turelim telekinesis )

LOFO1993
1st Oct 2013, 05:56
Here are the Razielim problems:
1 wings should be on the lower back not like they are now. (Raziel in SR1 cinematic)
2 they are already well on their way in transformation, they should have 3 talons on hand 2 on feet.
3 they are too grotesque when compared to the other clans and should at least have a skin option for fair skin to make them look similar to Raziel before the fall
4 they were supposed to be spellcasters of the vampire clans as far as the lore goes, here they are vicious scouting monsters, more brute beast than vampire mage. ( and please don't use the they are too beastly and grotesque to cast magic excuse, all of the other clans developed their traits and incorporated them into their monstrous forms, like Turelim telekinesis )

Another list of very good points.

Isn't it better if someone begins collecting all we're saying to make a list that all can agree on in the end and then pass it to the developers?

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 07:00
Would you care to tackle why Rahab had no legs and Rahabim still did?
Zehpon had... *indescribable* features and his clan did not?
Turel was a quadraped and Turelim were bipedal. Turel didn't appear until Defiance

You're saying they're not as evolved as Turel is, but that wasn't my point. The Turelim in this game are ahead of Turel in terms of size and fatial features, but behind him in other ways.


Who know how he may have looked in SR1.

Erm, Raina Audron does :p She recovered the model on her site.

RainaAudron
1st Oct 2013, 10:30
Hehe, well.. I just grabbed the adult Turelim from the game, slapped that Turel´s skin on, trippled the poly count and voila! Hereby I present you Turel :D
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0gIqlONsQA0/UkqkIscixLI/AAAAAAAAEeE/aYINN8MOO9A/s912/Turel2.png

lucinvampire
1st Oct 2013, 11:37
Great looking Turel there Raina :D …it’s good to see what the man himself would have looked like back in the day before his complete devolution!

Reidbynature
1st Oct 2013, 13:31
Nicely done, Raina. Really interesting to see what he was meant to look like.

88chaz88
1st Oct 2013, 13:45
Great looking Turel there Raina :D …it’s good to see what the man himself would have looked like back in the day before his complete devolution!

http://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/6/6d/SR1-Character-Turel-Lake-Full.jpg

Edit: Perhaps he found some kind of Vampiric fat-free diet and kept the secret to himself.

Mnkymn89
1st Oct 2013, 13:53
Just curious when do they say the razielim are spell casters?

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 14:03
@88chaz88 - Now, that is what the Turelim in Nosgoth should look like, with any upgrades/unlockables being the intermediate stages progressing towards the one Raina posted. The jaw on that one looks kind of weird, though. Maybe there was a plot reason for that like he burned it or something or maybe that part of him was tweaked for the Turelim we saw in game.

I'm fine with the uniform being DLC, but they should definitely start with those physical features.

ReccsVampire
1st Oct 2013, 14:10
Hey guys,

I've updated the OP with some points you've brought up.

Please keep the discussion going -- and the thread bumped -- so the devs will see it. They are supposedly watching all of us closely, listening to our concerns, so let's make ourselves heard!

lucinvampire
1st Oct 2013, 14:22
@88Chaz88 ;) I’d class that pick as him in his evolutionary state before he starts to go strange…as in like what’s shown in Raina’s semi-devolved picture…and way before he become the pit man in Defiance. :D heh he does look pretty buff in that picture…got to love the pose…work it for the camera baby!

@Vampmaster – heh and that was probably what people expected :D

88chaz88
1st Oct 2013, 14:40
@88chaz88 - Now, that is what the Turelim in Nosgoth should look like.

Other than the lack of ears I'm fine with the Turelim as they are. As everyone else keeps saying, they were much bigger than the other vamps in SR1.

I posted the image just to say that it's what Turel looked like during the SR1 cutscene, but there's a problem with it. All the lieutenants apart from perhaps Melchiah had the same body type and proportions. Not only that, Melchiah was bigger yet his vamps end up being rather skinny.

So I'd say the actual Turelim in SR1 should be a better base of what the Turelim in Nosgoth should look like, rather than the pre-devolved model of Turel himself.

RainaAudron
1st Oct 2013, 14:46
Thanks lucin! Yes, Turel is rather bulky in the upper part of his body, but the lower part is not as wide.

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 15:17
All this fuss over Turel! He should have his own fan club! I'm hoping to learn a lot about him in this game.

Paradoks_db
1st Oct 2013, 16:14
I figured it out!
I was wondering how Nosgoth is going to earn money with it's design as free to play but not pay to win.
All income will come from "classic Turelim ears" and "Three finger hands" DLC :D.

Moesph
1st Oct 2013, 16:25
All income will come from "classic Turelim ears" and "Three finger hands" DLC :D.
A wide selection of Turelim ears in every colour, additional cost for piercings!

lucinvampire
1st Oct 2013, 16:27
I figured it out!
I was wondering how Nosgoth is going to earn money with it's design as free to play but not pay to win.
All income will come from "classic Turelim ears" and "Three finger hands" DLC :D.

Lol yeah and we'd all buy them guaranteed :D

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 16:28
I figured it out!
I was wondering how Nosgoth is going to earn money with it's design as free to play but not pay to win.
All income will come from "classic Turelim ears" and "Three finger hands" DLC :D.

That would explain why they're being so stubborn.

Monkeythumbz
1st Oct 2013, 18:25
That would explain why they're being so stubborn.

We're actually discussing this topic right now.

LauraOrganaSolo
1st Oct 2013, 19:26
Pasting this from elsewhere because



...Visual part of the game must resemble to original Legacy of Kain.
--Vampires must have claws: three on palm, two on feet, as the original says.
--Turelim must have big ears, as we saw on the SR1 CG of Liuetenant Turel (http://www.legacyofkain.it/app/turel_vampiro.jpg), and his clan in the following game.
--Razielim wings also situated lower, according to CG and Daniel Cabuco's concept art (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoKSeries/Images/Symbols-SR-Raziel_Wing-01.JPG)(however, in the game itself wings' position also vary from seen on CG, but it can be explained by transformation after beeing in Abyss).
--Besides of that, I want to see other small, but pleasant refers to LoK, e.g. details in architecture, familiar locations, e.t.c.(The Pillars! We need them! By the way, in the SR era there's sanctuary of clans around them. It is possible to make it on the screen of vampire character creation, but it would be really good if players could walk in this location).

As I said in the welcome thread, I like to play competitive multiplayer games and such in the Legacy of Kain setting is great for me as for long-standing LoK fan. But without proper characters' design, it's just Monsters vs. Humans, not Nosgoth.

Denam_Pavel
1st Oct 2013, 19:46
At the very least the Razielim should have the claws as they can't possibly be recently made vampires.

I can live with the Turelim getting big before getting the evolved vampire characteritics but yeah I'd have liked them to have big ears.

Clothingwise I guess the Dumahims rich armor reflects their prosperity as a clan which would eventually lead to the complacency that let the humans destroy their home.

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 19:58
At the very least the Razielim should have the claws as they can't possibly be recently made vampires.

I can live with the Turelim getting big before getting the evolved vampire characteritics but yeah I'd have liked them to have big ears.

Clothingwise I guess the Dumahims rich armor reflects their prosperity as a clan which would eventually lead to the complacency that let the humans destroy their home.

As Ben pointed out here, the armor the Dumahim are wearing is a pretty good match for Dumah himself: http://www.thelostworlds.net/Nosgoth/Nosgoth_Community_Day.html

Reidbynature
1st Oct 2013, 20:14
As Ben pointed out here, the armor the Dumahim are wearing is a pretty good match for Dumah himself: http://www.thelostworlds.net/Nosgoth/Nosgoth_Community_Day.html

I hadn't thought to look for Ben Lincoln's write up of the event. It's been some time since I've clicked on The Lost Worlds. Thanks for the link.

I agree that there are elements of the Dumahim (and Turelim imo) that hark back to previous LoK's. I've posted it in a thread here. http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7302 I'd like to hear what others think of my thoughts on them.

NoLifeKing66
1st Oct 2013, 20:32
As a fan of the 'Legacy of Kain' franchise, I agree with many of the points others have made. If we're supposed to accept 'Nosgoth' as a new title in the series and not a reboot, then there needs to be a greater degree of consistency with what's already been established in the series. At the same time, the redesigns look good in their own way.

We can't assume that vampire (d)evolution occurs in all vampires at the same time, or in the same way; it's just not that simple a process. Therefore, I suggest the talons and the bat ears be optional (and free) in character customization. That way, purists can have vampire characters that look like the ones they're familiar with, and newcomers to the series can have whatever pleases them most.

The Razielim are trickier. It doesn't really bother me that their wings don't look like Raziel's; that's a purely aesthetic thing. But why have they started to (d)evolve first? Because their clan is the oldest? Because their patriarch is gone? Because they have been ostracized by their brethren due to Raziel's (perceived) betrayal, and therefore must scavenge for food? This is definitely something that needs to be explained very carefully in the game's lore, as it's something that has never been addressed in the series.

soulrelic616
1st Oct 2013, 20:39
We're actually discussing this topic right now.

That is good to know:)

About the other comments, yeah! Imagine uf something like this turned up as a purchasable/unlockable skin at a later date:



I would buy 10 of those! Imagine your Turelim Tyrant with that look!! :D

The_Hylden
1st Oct 2013, 21:02
Ber, please remember to use the thumb code (http://forums.eidosgames.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#thumb) on larger pics (wider than about 800 pixels). Thanks :)

Good to hear discussions are happening ;)

soulrelic616
1st Oct 2013, 21:06
Ber, please remember to use the thumb code (http://forums.eidosgames.com/misc.php?do=bbcode#thumb) on larger pics (wider than about 800 pixels). Thanks :)

Good to hear discussions are happening ;)

Oh sorry about that! I'm posting from the mobile and it looked fine from here :) will wrap the image in a thumb tag next time

Zimitry
1st Oct 2013, 22:06
Soulrelic wherever did you get that image from, was it concept for a new game or fanart?

Anyhow, about how Turel would have looked in Soul Reaver. His concept art was the only thing to reamin in the game abut him (and the intro and his tomb, of course). Also there are pages like this one http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Turel

I wish we could have fought him in SR1. I think that we took the topic to all Turel is because he is everyone's favorite lieutenant (is he not?)

P.S.: All this reminds me of so much memories of playing Soul Reaver, one of them Dumah chasing me around when I didn't know how to beat him as his theme played in the background, hopefully I found a guide in a magazine (that level gave me nightmares T_T)

Vampmaster
1st Oct 2013, 22:23
Anyhow, about how Turel would have looked in Soul Reaver. His concept art was the only thing to reamin in the game abut him (and the intro and his tomb, of course). Also there are pages like this one http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Turel

Turel's character model was recycled to make the elder members of his clan. The only thing he had different to them was his texture, which the one of the artists posted online. Swapping their textures for his, allowed Raina to show us what he would have looked like.

The one soulrelic666 posted was fan art.

RainaAudron
1st Oct 2013, 22:28
Soulrelic wherever did you get that image from, was it concept for a new game or fanart?)

I think that Turelim render was made by one of the artists working on Darksiders or something like that.

PoppaKain
1st Oct 2013, 23:40
Drat, I always seem to miss the good discussions. Curse my time traveling antics! I agree with most of the changes/suggestions stated here, although there is one I find far more important than the others.


This is my personal opinion here again, but I have a serious issue with this idea. If the vampire talons are buy-only (for real world currency, in the spirit of League of Legends "skins"), then I feel that is a spit in the face for all of us. "So you want your vamp to look the way he should look by default? Well pay up!" Please, do not do this.

I honestly think you'd appeal to both long-time LOK fans and newcomers by having the three-finger two toed long eared vampires. We'd be happy, and the new fellows would react something like "Oh my, these vampire designs are quite unique! I've never seen something quite like this before!"

A unique vampire design would draw in more fresh blood (Har har) simply out of curiosity. Perhaps they'd be incited to take a look at the older games, see what this handsome gentleman named Kain is up to... :naughty:


Also, Ms. Audron, excellent work on that Turel model. It looks very nice. I always enjoy seeing cut content from games, and SR1 had quite a lot.

Small Edit: I also enjoy the human designs a great deal, they're very good.

AlterRequiem
2nd Oct 2013, 01:51
First off, I would love to see a game like this utilize all the artistic styles of the previous games. But considering the dramatic difference in playstyle between humans and vampires, coming from a FPS gamers perspective, they need to be as identifiable as possible at long ranges. Which is easy enough for the Raziels (they have friggin wings). As far Turelim if you were to make their frame much smaller (especially if there are customizable skins) it would be somewhat confusing with Dumahim in terms of whether it would be a Fight or Flight scenario. Idk I love this series, and I love the look of the gameplay so far.

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 03:30
If you don't confuse to the two male humans, who are roughly similar in size, then you won't confuse two vampire classes if one isn't as huge. Turelim should be larger, but they don't have to be that big. Their larger ears sure would make them instantly identifiable, though ;)

And smart phones/mobiles will be the death of us all :p

RainaAudron
2nd Oct 2013, 10:13
Also, Ms. Audron, excellent work on that Turel model. It looks very nice. I always enjoy seeing cut content from games, and SR1 had quite a lot.

Thank you, PoppaKain :D That´s probably the closest thing to what could have been in the game.

Any news yet George?

AlterRequiem
2nd Oct 2013, 11:51
If you don't confuse to the two male humans, who are roughly similar in size, then you won't confuse two vampire classes if one isn't as huge. Turelim should be larger, but they don't have to be that big. Their larger ears sure would make them instantly identifiable, though ;)

TBH i couldnt tell you what sets the male humans apart at a distance aside from maybe the drawing of the bow... but by that time, youre in trouble, lol. and i havent seen enough gameplay to know if one packs a more ridiculous punch than another.

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 13:21
The one has a hood and fires a longbow. The other has a rapid fire crossbow and heavy armor. Either way, when attacking, you try and do so when they're not facing you with their weapons :D

Moesph
2nd Oct 2013, 14:00
I never had issues distinguishing the two human males, but I guess that could change depending on how they do customizations and if designs are class specific or not.

Turel2
2nd Oct 2013, 15:12
I gotta admit the first thing I noticed was how the Dumahim and the Turelim were "exchanged" in terms of appearance. I would've thought that the Dumahim were the big ones.

This was also the first thing I noticed. In SR 1, the Dumahim were the most warrior like. The Turelim had a psychokinetic blast.

In Nosgoth, Turelim cannot have their ranged blast attack.

To keep with both lore and gameplay elements, I think the Turelim should get a blast attack that is only usable at point blank range.

This fits in with lore and gameplay elements. The Turelim are not full SR1 vampires so a very short range attack is fine due to their small amount of mutation.

Vampmaster
2nd Oct 2013, 15:17
This was also the first thing I noticed. In SR 1, the Dumahim were the most warrior like. The Turelim had a psychokinetic blast.

In Nosgoth, Vampires have no ranged so the Turelim cannot have their ranged attack. I think the Turelim should get a melee ranged blast attack, that is only usable point blank.

I pointed out in another thread that Turel didn't use a long-range/directed TK in Defiance. Instead, he would just create orbs that circled around him an chased Raziel when he got close. I think if the TK was implemented in the same way for Nosgoth, it would work without breaking the asymmetrical gameplay.

Paradoks_db
2nd Oct 2013, 16:04
To be brutally honest, I think the character art direction is not sufficient for a Legacy of Kain game, and wish it were pushed several orders of magnitude closer in style to Soul Reaver.
Wouldn't we all? Personally I'm not that worried about models because these can still be fixed (at least in theory if developers are willing to take our input into account).
I am however frightened about locations, especially human settlements that we have seen so far. These cannot be changed so easily.

I made a longer post about architecture on Eidos forums. Now I'll just say that, with very few exceptions, I feel that environments don't look Nosgothic at all.

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 17:12
If I remember correctly, the Turelim do have a shock blast type of move they can do if under fire up close, or to escape when their health is fading in close. Each class has a special move when in close and it gets dire. Most notably, the Alchemist can use the flamethrower to blast a wall of flame to buy her some time.

Kiertis
2nd Oct 2013, 17:19
There's so many good points in this thread I feel bad I can't add anything new to them, but the thing about five fingered vampires appealing more to new generation kids really grinds my gears. That's no excuse to spoil the original character designs of Nosgoth's vampires (No Offense) that clearly include three claws/fingers and two toes - yeah so maybe some very weak fletclings didn't have them, but clearly the vampires that we are able to play in the game are waaaaayyy more evolved and much stronger, and as one pointed out earlier that even the weakest of Melchiahim's clan had the signature features, these bad boys should definately have 'em also.
You have a real chance to make something unique and different, don't think too much about what the mainstream wants, please.
LoK series in itself is so special and different from every other game and look how well it came out and how bold it's fanbase is even after all these years!
Now I must apologise my english gibberish, I wonder would it be possible to people post more pictures of the designs they have in mind? It's always interesting to see.

(And we really want them Turelim ears!!)

Turel2
2nd Oct 2013, 17:41
I think most people would like to the the vampires in a weaker/less evolved version of the SR 1 style vampires with 3 fingers and 2 toes.

ZeroFernir
2nd Oct 2013, 18:09
I agree that some of the vampires should have the 3 claws. Plus, I think that this will be an add-on game, as an upgrade for the ones who unlock it, showing that you have experience to use it.

Paradoks_db
2nd Oct 2013, 18:35
4 they were supposed to be spellcasters of the vampire clans as far as the lore goes
What is the basis of this claim? As far as I know there is no information about the nature of Razielim from earlier games or Q&As. Even the name Razielim hasn't officially appeared anywhere, it was just "Raziel's clan".

If we are to assume that vampire clans, at least in some form, retain the structure of their Sarafan counterparts (and I think it's a safe assumption) then the role of support spellcasters would be reserved for Melchiahim (as evidenced in SR2 and Defiance).

Lord_Aevum
2nd Oct 2013, 20:01
@Paradoks

The spellcasters thing is from DCab's feedback on the roles he felt the six clans would ideally fill within Kain's empire. Specifically on the Razielim, he said (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=486#p486) they would make especially potent "Artisans, Philosophers, Spellbinders, Tacticians..., Blood Bankers, and manipulators". Similar sentiment here (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1936#p1936). It should be noted that Dan openly states that these ideas are only his opinion and not necessarily a matter of established fact.

Paradoks_db
2nd Oct 2013, 20:15
Why did you leave out the "(death from above!)" part? That's one thing that we will actually see in game. :D
Personally I would stick with Sarafan order roles, because these have an actual reference in games. Raziel's Sarafan were the strongest, but they didn't use any magic (at least the ones we saw).

Lord_Aevum
2nd Oct 2013, 20:24
Well, another thing Dan divulged (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2183#p2183) was that there wasn't really an official notion in Crystal Dynamics that any of the Sarafan troop classes were associated with certain inquisitors (despite any colour coding speculation), so I wouldn't say that needs to be a factor either ;).

Btw, he had used the term "Razielim" on his forum in the second post I linked above, and that was in September 2012, before any of us knew the first thing about the existence of this game.

Vampmaster
2nd Oct 2013, 20:38
Well, another thing Dan divulged (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2183#p2183) was that there wasn't really an official notion in Crystal Dynamics that any of the Sarafan troop classes were associated with certain inquisitors (despite any colour coding speculation), so I wouldn't say that needs to be a factor either ;).

Btw, he had used the term "Razielim" on his forum in the second post I linked above, and that was in September 2012, before any of us knew the first thing about the existence of this game.

Adding "im" to the clan leader's name is the convention. I don't think any of the others didn't do that, so it is the most likely assumption.

The roles Daniel suggested they would have played in Kain's empire would probably have applied when Kain's empire was at it's peak. A few hundred years after Raziel was cast into the abyss, they'd have more pressing concerns than art and craft. Anyway, there's lots of room for tactics and spells as special abilities.

Paradoks_db
2nd Oct 2013, 20:41
Well, another thing Dan divulged (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2183#p2183) was that there wasn't really an official notion in Crystal Dynamics that any of the Sarafan troop classes were associated with certain inquisitors (despite any colour coding speculation), so I wouldn't say that needs to be a factor either ;).
Point taken. But it fits too well :D. The support spellcaster class existing within Melchiah's chapter (or whatever it's called) is however shown in SR2.



Btw, he had used the term "Razielim" on his forum in the second post I linked above, and that was in September 2012, before any of us knew the first thing about the existence of this game.
I meant it wasn't used in any official place (games or Q&As). Daniel is very close to that but most of what he writes is still "just" his take on the matter. But it doesn't matter really. Everyone has assumed it was Razielim ever since SR1.

LordNekronom
3rd Oct 2013, 08:53
OK so we gotta remember the devs said this is a work in progress and they want to have an open development with the community, we all established the main points of the vampire looks, now I think there is the matter of wich traits are a 'must have' for the game to be lore-friendly ( wich can be either mandatory / optional or it is in the dev's choice as there is 'lore' to sustain it) and wich can be cosmetic ones that are payed for and are mainly for customization.

The game is asymmetrical so it is natural that some traits that are optional for one class/clan is mandatory for another.

Let's take each of the clans and see what we have and what we can work on so far, after a listing of the traits I will give detailed possible lore reasons for them:

1) The Dumahim:

-they are the basic combat class, they look like fledgeling vampires from blood omen with 5 claws and enhanced strength and speed.
-they need to have slightly pointed ears and fangs, all vampires in the LoK franchise even in their most early forms/stages are depicted with slightly pointy ears, fangs and clawed hands ( this is a mandatory 'must have' trait )
-they can get 2 toed feet and 3 fingered hands the same way you get new different variations of abilities, by playing them more and unlocking it ( this is an optional 'must have' trait that you can activate at will on your char and show that you are an 'Adult' vampire )
-they could have slightly de/evolved skins in wich they have green scaly skin and a more bulky form ( these de/volved skins will have 3 fingered hands and 2 toed feet ) and battle markings/war paints/trophies as optional cosmetic customizations available for purchase

2) The Turelim:

-they are the heavy weapons of the vampire legions, they look like hulking brutes and they are showing signs of de/evolution on their face and clawed hands, and as far as I gather they have some form of point blank telekinetic blast that they can use in close combat.
-they are not like the Dumahim, they already show signs of devolving, as such they should have 3 clawed hands and 2 clawed feet by default, as well as fangs, either give them these by default or give them a normal face. ( mandatory 'must have' traits )
-the ears, should AT LEAST be slightly pointed ears like normal vampires, but by no means should they have the normal small human ears they currently have( mandatory 'must have' traits ) or long ears like Turel shows in the SR1 cinematic (dev's choice)
-optional purchasable customizations may be very large gremlin/bat ears and deformed faces ( slightly devolved skins like for the one suggested for Duhmahim, again with the adequate number of fingers and toes )

3) The Razielim:

-they are the flying scouts of the vampire legion, they are de/evolved, vicious, fast and have wings.
-they are very devolved, so fingers and toes... you get the idea by now (mandatory 'must have' trait)
-the wings are not on the lower back like Raziel they are on the shoulder plates like the Ancient vampires, they can stay like they are or made more like Raziel's (dev's choice)
-optional customizations for purchase could be a 'fair' or less de/evolved look for the Razielim ( so that they look more like Raziel) and wing variations, if you look in the trailer you can actually see 2 types of wings, 1 with leather wings and 1 with feathered wings similar to Janos.

I have not included common customizations on these list as clothes, armor, jewelery, hairstyles, etc. as this is about the specific vampire clans looks not general customization.

I apologize but my post is too long and I have to double post to continue the whole Idea

LordNekronom
3rd Oct 2013, 08:53
Possible Lore explanations for the traits and skins:

-All vampires shown in the lore so far, corrupted or not, have or are depicted with claws, fangs, slightly pointed ears.

-All vampires shown in the lore so far, corrupted or not, evolve or already have in one way or another 3 clawed hands and 2 toed feet when reaching a certain age/level of strenght/evolution ( Janos as an existing Ancient vampire, Vorador evolved them in time despite not being corrupted, Kain and his lieutenants also evolved them, all vampires after Raziel's reemergence in SR1 have them ). As such it is normal for Vampires who are already de/evolving to have developed these traits ( this is why it is mandatory for Razielim and Turelim, and optional for Duhmahim, as the Duhmahim aren't showing any signs of de/evolution )

-Turelim ears, should be either slightly pointed as normal vampires or longer like Turel in SR1 cinematic, this is up to the developers because it can be interpreted lore-wise in 2 ways :

1) Turel uses a telekinetic sound waves to 'see' Raziel and Raziel uses the gongs to break his telekinetic sound waves and turn it against him, as such the Turelim ear size can be linked to their telekinetic powers, the greater the telekinetic might, the larger the ears, as the Turelim in game are using melee range blasts they don't need the large ears yet and will develop them as they develop their power, the reason the face is deformed first in them and they don't have the monstrous ears like Turel is because Turel, as a lieutenant, was honing his 'gifts' and developed advanced telekinesis before his offspring, and his offspring being in constant battle developed the bestial/brutal features first.
2) Turel/Dumah/Raziel look most like their offspring as far as de/evolutionary traits are concerned, the other clans look nothing like their lieutenants, and as such since Turel has long gremlin ears before he de/evolves, his offspring should have them too.

-Razielim wings can be either on the shoulder as they are now or like Raziel on the lower back, it is up tot he developers as the clans don't exactly match their lieutenants in de/evolution, as mentioned above.

-The de/evolved skins/customizations for Dumahim/Turelim and the more 'fair', less de/evolved Razielim are simple to explain, in the Q & A I saw on youtube, they said that the Razielim de/evolved faster because they are missing a lieutenant, they didn't explain exactly why but that is a major cause, remember if the offspring of a lieutenant suffer when said lieutenant is not in direct 'interaction' with them, then it stands to reason that all the clans suffer from Kain's absence, the Dumahim/Turelim still have their lieutenants and as such devolve slower than the Razielim but still devolve relatively fast, remember they served Kain 1000 years just fine with little transformations and in the next 500 years when Kain is time jumping, poof, major de/evolution acceleration, the less symbiotically connected to their sire or the weaker the vampire, the faster they devolve, and surrounding conditions also influence this, remember Turel was summoned to a place of 'darkness' and was blind as a result. Most of the warriors on the front lines are fledgelings,grunts the veterans and high ranking officers hold places of power and don't charge in with the rest of the mob, Veteran Duhmahim will show increased muscle mass and tougher scaly hides to foreshadow their appearance in SR1, High ranking Turelim Officers can develop and fine tune their telekinesis as they are not always on the battlefield, and as such can have larger ears and are more devolved due to their age ( this could also provide an alternate telekinetic burst with lower dmg but at longer range, not enough to do serious damage but let's say give a nudge to a human on a ledge, but this is another matter so I won't touch the subject further and stick to visual aesthetics ) and High Ranking Razielim that were closer to Raziel before his fall could have enough power left to de/evolve slower than the majority of their kind, and still look just like their leader did before his fall. (personally I'm hoping for the option to make something between young Kain and Raziel in appearance, like a Sephiroth Vampire, and knowing square-enix's usual character customizations that should be possible, though I hope they capture the 'Cold Beauty' feel of the LoK vampires and don't make them a 'bishie' )

-other aspects like war pains, trophies, wing types, skin tones etc. could be attributed to individual tastes or particular evolutions of the vampire as individuals.



Now the things mentioned above are, in my opinion at least, necessary to make Nosgoth 'Lore-Friendly' to the current LoK universe.

I have heard the term water-tight lore before, that isn't as awesome as one might assume, anything can be 'placed into the lore' all you need is a good enough catalyst to introduce it, and in LoK the lore is pretty elastic, but if you pull an elastic too much, even if it doesn't break it doesn't go back to the way it was, it's not the same, and if you were to use it for something you used it before it wouldn't work as well or maybe it wouldn't work at all.
Here is an example to show you what I mean by this :
-you can justify the vampires not having 3 claws,2 toes and their traits being uneven ( face before ears on turelim, mutated razielim with normal hands and feed etc. ) simply by saying that the Kain's jumping through time has unbalanced the symbiotic link the vampires share with their sire, and the constant war has destabilized them more and as such they have sort of an 'evolutionary jet-leg' and change uneven, in the end of course resulting the full 3 clawed 2 toed deformed monsters in SR1 but they go through this change chaotically.
-but doing this would just make a mockery of the lore for commercial sake, to have more 'imposing' mainstream vamps for a larger audience, as opposed to the franchise specific vamps seen before in LoK, the series has survived so long because of it's fanbase and the fanbase isn't here because we love the gameplay of the series, Prince of Persia has the same gameplay as LoK and now many games have that type, we didn't endure just for the fantasy setting, we got lots of fantasy media, the reason the fanbase survived was the story, the lore, the dialogue and the memorable characters that actually had an impact for most of us. Nosgoth has no dialogue, none of the original main chars make an appearance so what do you have left? Lore. If you change what we love about the lore, you may very well do the opposite of what you intended and bury the franchise instead of revive it.

-I don't mean any disrespect, but if you think mainstream looking vampires would attract a higher audience then why not mainstream customizations to make more money instead? Because nobody would buy normal hands and feet for vamps... Maybe Blood Omen only fans would want them to make a young Kain-like char but that is still 2 games vs 3 when it comes to fan count.


P.S. I am an active forum member on another game that takes it's communities wishes into account for development and improvement of the game, and I find that polls help a great deal when trying to determine the overall wishes of a community, I do not know if polls are allowed to be held by members on the forums at this time but I would like to ask for permission to make one if they are, from the looks of it I don't think a poll on including these traits or not into the game is required, as everyone seems to want them, but a poll so I have no doubt they will be introduced, the poll is about if people want them as the default for the vampires, to keep to the lore as much as possible, or as an optional customization and somehow allow the existence of the current vampires as the default look.

RainaAudron
4th Oct 2013, 14:14
So I was thinking today since we all want the Razielim to have bat wings and other features... so played around in Photoshop for a few hours and came up with how they could look like in the game:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5RYkqyJ7tB4/Uk7PdpH0cjI/AAAAAAAAEfY/504E4uPmoCE/s512/Razielim-by-raina3.png

And the original for comparison:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y8Uw5hC5EUE/Uk7MZ-GY9rI/AAAAAAAAEfM/qn9Ic1hWkUY/s512/Razielim-original.PNG

In my version I added: bat wings, pointy ears, glowing red eyes, fangs, cloven hands and feet and a Razielim banner around his waist.

What do you guys think?

Vampmaster
4th Oct 2013, 14:35
I think the colouring and texture of his wings needs to match with the rest of hit body if it's supposed to be flesh (the wings would have gotten thicker due to devolution) or if it's clothing it should have a more solid colour. It's very difficult to tell if it's rusted armor, worn leather or the vampire's actual body.

MrMilky
4th Oct 2013, 15:13
So I was thinking today since we all want the Razielim to have bat wings and other features... so played around in Photoshop for a few hours and came up with how they could look like in the game:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5RYkqyJ7tB4/Uk7PdpH0cjI/AAAAAAAAEfY/504E4uPmoCE/s512/Razielim-by-raina3.png

And the original for comparison:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y8Uw5hC5EUE/Uk7MZ-GY9rI/AAAAAAAAEfM/qn9Ic1hWkUY/s512/Razielim-original.PNG

In my version I added: bat wings, pointy ears, glowing red eyes, fangs, cloven hands and feet and a Razielim banner around his waist.

What do you guys think?

With less decay or no decay at all, perfect by all means.

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 15:58
I'm a long-time LoK fan (as I'm sure most of us here are) but don't find myself feeling quite as rigid about things as many of you do.

I feel like LoK has left a LOT of things un-addressed and open to interpretation. The era that this game is to be set is one in particular that is virtually unexplored, as is the nature of vampire evolution/devolution where the clans are concerned. All we really know is what we find in SR1, which is a very different world than we are looking at in this game.

For one, I'm fine with the fingers and toes for the most part. After all Kain was anatomically similar in BO1 and 2. These are young vampires we are playing as here so that makes sense. Even the Razielim could go either way on this issue. There really is little if anything to go on as far as how these necro-symbiotic vamps evolve, so saying that things "should" be a certain way is pretty unfounded.

Also regarding the Razielim, I don't have a problem with their bluish flesh either. Who's to say that Raz wouldn't have evolved similarly if he hadn't been cast out? I think he likely would have have evolved into something resembling an ancient vampire, so his clan's appearance makes sense, being a mutated, devolved version of that idea.

I'm all for creative ideas and new thinking in this game. I think people are trying to build walls when we should be talking about the openings. There is LOT'S of room for new ideas in this game that can work within and alongside pre-established continuity.

Vampmaster
4th Oct 2013, 16:14
Actually, thinking about it further, one thing SE appear to have gotten right is the order the clans devolved in. The Razielim is the most devolved (wings, face and skin), then the Turelim (face and stature), then the Dumahim (mostly human). The only difference is that the ears (especially in Turel) and cloven hands would have showed before any of those other traits and the clans are further apart in terms of devolution than I would have expected.

RainaAudron
4th Oct 2013, 16:24
Also regarding the Razielim, I don't have a problem with their bluish flesh either. Who's to say that Raz wouldn't have evolved similarly if he hadn't been cast out? I think he likely would have have evolved into something resembling an ancient vampire, so his clan's appearance makes sense, being a mutated, devolved version of that idea.

I don´t agree - Raziel is not an ancient, he has bat wings, not feathered wings. Also the wings are not supposed to be growing from the shoulder blades like they have now, but from their lower backs. They should have kept them similar to what Raziel´s wings were.

Reidbynature
4th Oct 2013, 16:24
Very nice, Raina. Though it seems the arms and legs are that of post execution Raziel. They're maybe a bit too ravaged in my view. I'd be interested to see what it would look like with vampire Raziel's legs and claws. I also like the use of the Razielim clan flag as a loin cloth.

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 16:37
I don´t agree - Raziel is not an ancient, he has bat wings, not feathered wings. Also the wings are not supposed to be growing from the shoulder blades like they have now, but from their lower backs. They should have kept them similar to what Raziel´s wings were.

I didn't say he was an ancient. I said "something resembling an ancient." Perhaps, and likely, Raz was evolving/devolving during his decent since it lasted so long. Perhaps by the end he was just a scorched and ravaged version of what he would have became anyway.

Also, I don't think his clan's wings should be exactly like Raz's. That makes little sense. There should be a variety of branches to the winged trait they recieved. Some should surely be as Raz's was, but not all. Basically, I want to see variety.

CountEyokir
4th Oct 2013, 16:40
So I was thinking today since we all want the Razielim to have bat wings and other features... so played around in Photoshop for a few hours and came up with how they could look like in the game:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5RYkqyJ7tB4/Uk7PdpH0cjI/AAAAAAAAEfY/504E4uPmoCE/s512/Razielim-by-raina3.png

And the original for comparison:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y8Uw5hC5EUE/Uk7MZ-GY9rI/AAAAAAAAEfM/qn9Ic1hWkUY/s512/Razielim-original.PNG

In my version I added: bat wings, pointy ears, glowing red eyes, fangs, cloven hands and feet and a Razielim banner around his waist.

What do you guys think?

If the Razilim HAVE to come in like dancing monkeys for us - this design is MUCH MUCH better. Are we really supposed to believe they grew wings befor talons? Hey - Nosgoth people - make this cosmetic change please!

The_Hylden
4th Oct 2013, 20:37
Sorry, Raina. That looks far too much like an Orc to me :p


(Major Sarcasm Power: drained)


lol, looks much better. I think of course the minor critiques of the look she'd probably agree on. This is just a small mock-up, after all. Not a final render. It's just showing that this would work. In fact, that it does look far more right than what we have.


No, I don't think blue skin on ANY of these vampires makes any sense. (Rahab in the Boyld Lake renders is tinted blue only because they appeared to want them to be easily recognizable as their clan banner color (his is blur-green). He's not this color in the Intro) Ingame, they're browns and decaying gray greens, at best.

DjangoJustin
4th Oct 2013, 20:44
No, I don't think blue skin on ANY of these vampires makes any sense. (Rahab in the Boyld Lake renders is tinted blue only because they appeared to want them to be easily recognizable as their clan banner color (his is blur-green). He's not this color in the Intro) Ingame, they're browns and decaying gray greens, at best.

I think that the blueish skin for the Razielim could make fine sense. I think it's very possible that Raz could have developed blue skin during his own evolution/devolution if he weren't cast out. He very could have continued his natural evolution as he descended the abyss and ended up looking similar to these creatures, though with bat wings. The Razielim would then just be following their sire's own evolution.

Denam_Pavel
4th Oct 2013, 20:51
Raziel's noting of the resemblence between him and the ancient vampires might suggest that it indeed wasn't just an effect of his body being destroyed, that he was destined to always resemble the ancient vampires more then others.

Reidbynature
4th Oct 2013, 21:06
As much as I would like the Razielim to evolve into more ancient vampire-like beings I have to agree with Hylden in that there doesn't seem to be a basis for that. More than likely they would suffer a Turel-like uber devolution.

Though personally I would like to see a use for at least a handful of survivors in a future story driven game. Call me a fanboy, but I'd like their fate to be revealed to be more than just wiped out and done away with before Raziel's rebirth.

Though speaking of Rahab. I wouldn't mind seeing his Lieutenant form and his Rahabim clan with a more silvery fish-like skin.

MrMilky
4th Oct 2013, 21:20
My opinion is that Razielim being annihilated serve a much deeper, darker side of the story and give weight to every single action of Kain. While it's understandable that he might have said that in order to infuriate Raziel (and the player), a genocide is such a tasty dark side to the story itself. It provides the magnitude of such an action made on a whim. That and him being corrupted. I like to see him as potentially evil character, thanks to the vampirism, who doesn't have even the slightest remorse for the lives of human warriors which he destroyed in the games and, that, effectively can be called an overkill.
Kain should be seen as a dark hero, someone who doesn't pay dues to anyone but himself.
The only care he got was for Raziel, but that was after the corruption.

Mnkymn89
4th Oct 2013, 23:53
i like the banner around the waist its a nice touch

Crainy
6th Oct 2013, 02:36
I 100% agree on the Tureliham. Please, PLEASE change their appearance closer to how they were in SR1. Turel and his clan are my favorite of the vampire clans and the current ingame models dont do them justice at all.

Umbralim
6th Oct 2013, 03:14
as far as the cloven hand and feet go, I would be more than willing to settle for a middle ground instead of having the full blown claws I think changing the textures to show some of their fingers beginning to fuse together into one but still partially disconnected at the upper joints would look nice and would help suggest more mutation that is occurring.

as for the razielim wings I'm fine with the way they took them i mean we only saw what they would look like un-broken once, 10 years ago (real world time) and a bit of redesign is probably in order.

Rahabthesecond
6th Oct 2013, 09:34
In my version I added: bat wings, pointy ears, glowing red eyes, fangs, cloven hands and feet and a Razielim banner around his waist.

What do you guys think?

Uhm....just my opinion:
Eyes: I love them
Ears: Must have
Hands and feets: Need a bit of rework, don't really fit to the rest of the picture at the moment. If both the talons and the toes would be a little bit thiner and "more realistic" this would really look great but at the moment the combination of "realistic" vampire and "comical" hands and feets looks strange
Wings: I never liked the original wings, strange position and too small. The new folded wings are way better in my opinion.
Banner: What for? To recognize them as Razielim? Or because they are ashamed because of their private parts?

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2013, 10:01
Sorry, Raina. That looks far too much like an Orc to me :p

(Major Sarcasm Power: drained)

This is what someone wrote about the Turelim as they are at the moment:


Don't like the look of the Turelim Tyrants to much at the moment, but that might change once I see more gamplay videos of them. At the moment they have more of an ogre than of a vampire to me and turellim without gigantic ears???

Bwahahahahahaha! :lol:

EDIT: Oh. Ogre, not Orc. My bad.

RainaAudron
6th Oct 2013, 10:29
Uhm....just my opinion:
Eyes: I love them
Ears: Must have
Hands and feets: Need a bit of rework, don't really fit to the rest of the picture at the moment. If both the talons and the toes would be a little bit thiner and "more realistic" this would really look great but at the moment the combination of "realistic" vampire and "comical" hands and feets looks strange
Wings: I never liked the original wings, strange position and too small. The new folded wings are way better in my opinion.
Banner: What for? To recognize them as Razielim? Or because they are ashamed because of their private parts?

It was just quick mockup, I don´t have the model itself so had to work with what I had atm, nothing fancy ofc :D banner can be easily removed but I put it there since I thought it might be nice little touch like somebody said... I wouldnt mind a tattoo or something, but the banner is certainly not for hiding parts , haha :D Melchahim have something similar. I do not like the new wings at all to say...

LOFO1993
6th Oct 2013, 10:51
Raina's artwork is not only way more consistent with the original lore, it's also 200% more appealing to the eye, given you know the old games or not.

Hope the guy who drawn it won't get mad for what I'm about to say, but the game model - or at least this version of it - is just bad in my opinion, and I'm not speaking as a LoK fan, but as a gamer in general. It is a mess in terms of colors and shapes, doesn't resemble neither a human nor a "classic vampire", nor anything else my mind can come up with. It is just grotesque, but a completely uninspired grotesque, and it doesn't even seem to belong with the other vampires, who are way more human and "normal".

That could be kinda ok as a weak enemy in an old-school Quake-like game (even though I would still think it's pretty uninspired) or a messy thing coming out from some Silent Hill, but it just can't be your own character. It doesn't even have a face, nor anything resembling a face.

Crainy
6th Oct 2013, 16:47
Ive said it in the other thread and I will say it here, too. Aside from the Turelim not having the right ear size, I think first and foremost the head of the Razelim need a redesign. They just dont look like vampires. Throw abit more of Vorador into that head, give the large bat like ears, a strong jaw, clearly visible teeth. Have their skin the pale.

OKauyon
6th Oct 2013, 21:10
Is it just me or does it look to anyone else that they seem to have gotten Turelim and Dumahim the wrong way round? I would have thought that, given how Turel and Dumah "devolved" over time, the Turelim would be the Stalker archetype and the Dumahim would be the Hulking Brute archetype.

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2013, 21:20
Is it just me or does it look to anyone else that they seem to have gotten Turelim and Dumahim the wrong way round? I would have thought that, given how Turel and Dumah "devolved" over time, the Turelim would be the Stalker archetype and the Dumahim would be the Hulking Brute archetype.

The Turelim were the largest and most damaging vampires in SR1. Some people have argued that it was only because Dumah was staked for a long time, but even in the intro, Turel was taller. Also, I beleive the reason the Dumahim are still humanoid is that they are one state-of-change behind the Turelim, who are in turn one stage behind the Razielim.

ZeroFernir
6th Oct 2013, 22:38
The Turelim were the largest and most damaging vampires in SR1. Some people have argued that it was only because Dumah was staked for a long time, but even in the intro, Turel was taller. Also, I beleive the reason the Dumahim are still humanoid is that they are one state-of-change behind the Turelim, who are in turn one stage behind the Razielim.

But do one stage of Dark Gift does that much difference? Because the only one that was really too different of the others in SR1 was Melchiah, the last one... the others were almost equal in (d)evolving stage.

Vampmaster
6th Oct 2013, 22:45
But do one stage of Dark Gift does that much difference? Because the only one that was really too different of the others in SR1 was Melchiah, the last one... the others were almost equal in (d)evolving stage.

No, it shouldn't make that much difference. I was just saying I can see what SE were trying to do.

Rahabthesecond
6th Oct 2013, 22:46
I finaly figured out what I dislike most about the Razielim! It the legs/stance! That guy looks like he's training to do splits.
Edit: Regarding Evolution/Devolution: We only ASUME that the speed of this process is linked to order of the first Vampires raised by Kaine. 6 Individuals is a samplesize much too small to get a good result especialy if only one individual (Melchiah) devolves considerable faster than the others. Basically we stick to Kains guess about devolution. Guess the subject is way more complex in reality because effects like Lieutenant dead/badly wounded or other events like the try to purge the Razielim seem to have an influence too. The only logical cconclusion: We don't really know about the devolution and can only do a few guesses from few events in the timelines, so developers can basically do whatever they like.

ZeroFernir
6th Oct 2013, 23:56
I finaly figured out what I dislike most about the Razielim! It the legs/stance! That guy looks like he's training to do splits.
Edit: Regarding Evolution/Devolution: We only ASUME that the speed of this process is linked to order of the first Vampires raised by Kaine. 6 Individuals is a samplesize much too small to get a good result especialy if only one individual (Melchiah) devolves considerable faster than the others. Basically we stick to Kains guess about devolution. Guess the subject is way more complex in reality because effects like Lieutenant dead/badly wounded or other events like the try to purge the Razielim seem to have an influence too. The only logical cconclusion: We don't really know about the devolution and can only do a few guesses from few events in the timelines, so developers can basically do whatever they like.

So, you are saying that (d)evolution may have more link with the lieutenants than with the amount of Dark Gift they have?

Rahabthesecond
7th Oct 2013, 09:10
No what I'm saying is that we have no clue! Our "knowledge" is based on an assumption made by Kain (as far as we know he more or less invented the process). Devolution could in reality also be linked to the size of the sunspots or the ammount of blood a vampire has taken. We can only guess!

The_Hylden
7th Oct 2013, 09:26
No, we do know what causes the devolution. Q&A with the LoK: Defiance team (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#.UlJ8vRD4LW4):


Q: Why did Kain's lieutenants and their children in Soul Reaver 1 devolve? Was it because each of them inherited the corruption from his soul?
A: Yes, it was because of the corruption of Kain's soul. The amount of devolution was directly related to how much of his soul they received.
Q: Why didn't Kain evolve any further once Raziel had grown his wings?
A: The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.

What is not explained here is which side of the amount of Kain's soul received gets the worst of the devolution. Psyonix is saying Raziel's strongest soul portion equals why his clan has devolved faster.

LordNekronom
7th Oct 2013, 09:51
No what I'm saying is that we have no clue! Our "knowledge" is based on an assumption made by Kain (as far as we know he more or less invented the process). Devolution could in reality also be linked to the size of the sunspots or the ammount of blood a vampire has taken. We can only guess!

wow, easy there :D, this is game lore, not poetry to be analyzed and guessed at, we can base our assumptions on solid proof:
-1 factor ,as the devs confirmed, is the lack of a lieutenant, that means the lack of an original sire, this makes a lot of sense, lieutenants devolve little over a 1000 years and in 500 years with Kain missing they turn monstrous, think of it like a symbiotic bond the same way the guardians have.

- another factor we can safely deduce is in SR1, the portion of the Kain's soul/sire's soul received determines the de/evolutionary speed of a vampire and his subsequent brood, we see this in Raziel, Turel and Dumah the strongest of Kain's sons, they all have humanoid frames and resemble their offspring resemble them the most (keep in mind Turel's unused model was bipedal in SR1 and he became blind and quadrupedal in Defiance after being summoned by the cult and kept isolated in darkness and hunger)
while Rahab was partially humanoid with a fish tail, his brood still having normal legs and a humanoid frame and Melchiah and Zephon were not even humanoind anymore while their brood were; this means that the less portion of the sire's soul one has the more he changes during 1 pupation stage.

-yet another factor we see in SR 1 and also in Defiance with Turel, a vampire's surrounding conditions determines his 'gifts' during de/evolutions, Rahab's brood overcame their weakness to water, Zephon's learned to climb walls and Turel was rendered blind by the 'darkness' in wich he was summoned.

These are simple, logical facts based on evidence throughout the games and provided by the devs not 'guesses' , I will give you an example of a 'guess' :
Janos Audron devolved into a monstrous quadrupedal form by being starved of blood and reverted back when he was no longer drained, we can assume that devolving is a common trait of all vampires both original Ancients and following generations of vampires, and extreme starvation causes a devolutionary effect in all vampires, but due to the corruption of the circle present in Kain and his brood, the devolution happens naturaly due to spiritual decay instead of physical decay and as the spirit did not recover, the devolution was permanent.

That up there is a guess at vampire devolution.

Here is another FACT at vampire evolution (notice I don't join the terms de/evolution this time as they are different in these 2 cases and clearly set apart from one another):
As we can see in Vorador, all vampires develop over time taloned feet and hands to match the Ancient vampires, the source of the Dark gift, this is normal as the vampires intended to preserve their bloodline, passing only the bloodthirst was not enough to do so, it stands to reason they imparted their own essence wich was bound to the bloodcurse so the new vampires would in time transform to match their sires ( this is of course not a perfect match, some of the original human's traits remain and thus they don't grow wings )

That is a fact about general vampire evolution, a guess would be how Vorador got his green skin and pointy ears and how his beard turned into chin spikes, I can guess that the diversity in the human genetic code added more options for skin colors and due to the fact than Ancients seemed to be more resilient (Janos could somewhat resist blows from the spirit reaver wich decimated large demons ) that the hair turning into spikes is akin to horns on cattle or rhinos, and the ears are also a result of vampire predatory nature coupled with human adaptability. (think of it how basketball players are taller because they jump to reach a high place more)

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 12:15
No, we do know what causes the devolution. Q&A with the LoK: Defiance team (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#.UlJ8vRD4LW4):


What is not explained here is which side of the amount of Kain's soul received gets the worst of the devolution. Psyonix is saying Raziel's strongest soul portion equals why his clan has devolved faster.

But in that line of thought, woulnd't Melchiah be the most conserved one? he has the least portion of kain's dark gift, so they would SLOOOOOOOWLY turn vampires and then SLOOOOOOOWLY turn corpses, right?

Anansios
7th Oct 2013, 20:54
wow, easy there :D, this is game lore, not poetry to be analyzed and guessed at, we can base our assumptions on solid proof:
-1 factor ,as the devs confirmed, is the lack of a lieutenant, that means the lack of an original sire, this makes a lot of sense, lieutenants devolve little over a 1000 years and in 500 years with Kain missing they turn monstrous, think of it like a symbiotic bond the same way the guardians have.

It is fairly reasonable. I only wonder about Dumah being staked... I always thought that it was Nosgoth falling closer to decay because the pillars were never restored. Speculation vs speculation. I do like that they cite Kain's absence; interesting.



- another factor we can safely deduce is in SR1, the portion of the Kain's soul/sire's soul received determines the de/evolutionary speed of a vampire and his subsequent brood, we see this in Raziel, Turel and Dumah the strongest of Kain's sons, they all have humanoid frames and resemble their offspring resemble them the most (keep in mind Turel's unused model was bipedal in SR1 and he became blind and quadrupedal in Defiance after being summoned by the cult and kept isolated in darkness and hunger)
while Rahab was partially humanoid with a fish tail, his brood still having normal legs and a humanoid frame and Melchiah and Zephon were not even humanoind anymore while their brood were; this means that the less portion of the sire's soul one has the more he changes during 1 pupation stage.

First off, nothing said here is meant as hostile :) ( the post is long and looking rant-like lol)

Where is proof of that idea of human shape and the amount of Kain's soul are connected?

How can you reconcile this ex Turel: Biped SR1(edited out) or Quadraped Defiance? Yet in some people's minds, there is no conflict between the two forms because they are "both correct"...even if they are mutually exclusive....

Look at the final forms of #lieutenants and their ---clans:

1. Raziel Unknown
---unknown
2. Turel SR1 unknown (humanoid). Defiance (bat-like quadraped)
---SR1 bipeds. (now that we know that was Turel's intended model. Where does that leave us on his clan's appearance?)
3. Dumah Humanoid
---humanoid
(4.) Rahab (legless merman)
---bipedal amphibian monsters.
(5.) Zephon (immobile insectoid)
---Bipedal semi quadrapedal...
6. Melchiah Beastly humanoid (atrophied legs and freaky hands)
---humanoid

I could easily concede on Melchiah.
Dumah is really the Only humanoid lieutenant.

There is no trend. They do not become more or less human in order. I'm a statistician(c); the above could be an ordinal variable since we know that's the order that they recieved the greatest proportion of Kain's soul.
On the other hand, ranking how humanoid the lieutenants are..., it would be a 'nominal' variable; there is no order and there are too many missing values. Who looks more human Raziel or Melchiah? Raziel is dead...Turel...cut from SR1...magically summoned to a new timeline in Defiance...so Turel or Melchiah? Turel Does have feet...? >_>

(I'm not prone to nerdy rants...I just finished a Massive biostatistics assignment that had us running data and labeling variables lol)

Back to Kain's soul, we know that Melchiah did not get enough of Kain's soul to stave off the rot from his resurrected corpse. Raziel knew that Before he hit the abyss. D/evolution didn't seem to start day 1. Kain was still around, so a present sire should stave off immediate devolution. Melchiah's rotting skin was explained as a result of being the shafted baby brother :P Nupraptor was never mentioned.



-yet another factor we see in SR 1 and also in Defiance with Turel, a vampire's surrounding conditions determines his 'gifts' during de/evolutions, Rahab's brood overcame their weakness to water, Zephon's learned to climb walls and Turel was rendered blind by the 'darkness' in wich he was summoned.

These are simple, logical facts based on evidence throughout the games and provided by the devs not 'guesses' ,
Hehe and Raziel evolved wings by falling into the abyss :P But in seriousness, the surroundings were never mentioned. Did Melchiah learn to walk through walls because he got so huge? Turelim & telekinesis... SR1 we got the ability from a relic Morlok (sp) was carrying, not from consuming someone's soul... Rahab became more sensitive to light...how? What about Turelim and Dumahim? Vampires could not have survived water, so evolving water resistance over time is not the best explanation...



That up there is a guess at vampire devolution.

Here is another FACT at vampire evolution (notice I don't join the terms de/evolution this time as they are different in these 2 cases and clearly set apart from one another):
As we can see in Vorador, all vampires develop over time taloned feet and hands to match the Ancient vampires, the source of the Dark gift, this is normal as the vampires intended to preserve their bloodline,
Yes! :)


passing only the bloodthirst was not enough to do so, [B]it stands to reason [/ B] that means extrapolation, not fact, even if it strikes me as reasonable. It's true that they didn't grow wings.



they imparted their own essence wich was bound to the bloodcurse so the new vampires would in time transform to match their sires (this is of course not a perfect match, some of the original human's traits remain and thus they don't grow wings )
More reasonable speculation. I can't argue with that :)



(think of it how basketball players are taller because they jump to reach a high place more)

Correlation does not equal causation.

You misunderstand evolution. Creatures won't evolve blindness in response to darkness; creatures that are blind do just as well as creatures that can see when there is no light. Creatures that can see do better where they can use their vision. Life lives where it can survive. Survivors have offspring and thus they continue to exist. That's how evolution works.
Zephonim could even have moved into Janos' retreat by scaling the walls...ignoring the big hole, of course. Zephonim also spun webs around prey...

[I]Basketball players jumping? That theory was written of decades ago... Jean Baptiste Lamark. Look up "giraffe stretching its neck." :) [/ I]


--------------------

In truth, there are facts in the game, but people look at a few facts and then extrapolate. "Turelim should be glass cannons because they had a ranged attack and were lender legged"... ?!? -_-

Also, people draw a lot of conclusions from cut material.

There was a human cultist/priestess that would have given Raziel mindcontrol/possession, but she was cut from the game. People complain about Turelim and telekinesis but did Turel even use telekinesis? Molock did...with a relic...
There were holes in SR1, and I loved the game, and still do. That's why I don't like this 'Absolute Certainty' that so many seem to have. Does that excuse future mistakes? No! But, a little humility when quoting 'sources' seems reasonable. The dev's were right when they said that 'they are in an unexplored era of Nosgoth'.

I agree with a number of changes that people state; those were iconic features! I can't support the way that some people claim that these iconic features were explicitly explained and that the dev's were not smart enough to find them.

Look at SR1, the clan leaders were not mirrored by their own clans, but their models were certainly inspired by their leaders. A little variation can be acceptable.
Honestly imagine Rahab fully d/evolved. Now, would you have given his clan legs? If Rahabim can have legs, I'm ok with Razielim having shoulder mounted wings. (Lower spine is certainly more unique, but 'meh' it isn't exactly lore breaking). Would I prefer them to be lower set? Yes, I would prefer that and it would be awesome. Now the question would be if the devs are able to redo all of the animations for their wings, as the trailer demonstrated that they are used in their attacks. Is the opportunity cost for lower mounted wings lower than using that time to add more features to the game? A great many on the forum would think so. It is a decision that they must make. I definitely would like pointy ears and more visible fangs.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 21:32
How can you reconcile this ex Turel: Biped SR1(edited out) or Quadraped Defiance? Yet in some people's minds, there is no conflict between the two forms because they are "both correct"...even if they are mutually exclusive....


I agree with a number of changes that people state; those were iconic features! I can't support the way that some people claim that these iconic features were explicitly explained and that the dev's were not smart enough to find them.

Yeah, and most of them I would like to see back in the game... they were what differ LoK Vampires from the sparkling ones.


Honestly imagine Rahab fully d/evolved. Now, would you have given his clan legs? If Rahabim can have legs, I'm ok with Razielim having shoulder mounted wings. (Lower spine is certainly more unique, but 'meh' it isn't exactly lore breaking). Would I prefer them to be lower set? Yes, I would prefer that and it would be awesome. Now the question would be if the devs are able to redo all of the animations for their wings, as the trailer demonstrated that they are used in their attacks. Is the opportunity cost for lower mounted wings lower than using that time to add more features to the game? A great many on the forum would think so. It is a decision that they must make. I definitely would like pointy ears and more visible fangs.

I would love the lower wings, the ears and the fangs, along with the claws... But I think that we can wait a bit more, if there is any chance to correct it later. If it does not, I think we would better stop the game production now to correct it. It is something the game NEEDS to have.

Vampmaster
7th Oct 2013, 22:22
I would love the lower wings, the ears and the fangs, along with the claws... But I think that we can wait a bit more, if there is any chance to correct it later. If it does not, I think we would better stop the game production now to correct it. It is something the game NEEDS to have.

Anything that requires a change to the rig/armature/hierarchy/skeleton or whatever you want to call it will be too late to change after all animations have been set up to work with the current one. If any of that is going to be changed, it's better to do it sooner than cost more work later.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 22:47
Anything that requires a change to the rig/armature/hierarchy/skeleton or whatever you want to call it will be too late to change after all animations have been set up to work with the current one. If any of that is going to be changed, it's better to do it sooner than cost more work later.

That was my post. But if it has no such impact on that (like, just skins can solve) I think we could leave that for a later matter.

Vampmaster
7th Oct 2013, 23:03
That was my post. But if it has no such impact on that (like, just skins can solve) I think we could leave that for a later matter.

I thought you were suggesting the wings and claws were things that could wait. I was saying those would be the most difficult to change later on, because they'd need the animations changing to work with the new structure.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 23:24
I thought you were suggesting the wings and claws were things that could wait. I was saying those would be the most difficult to change later on, because they'd need the animations changing to work with the new structure.

Yeah, I know... The new animations would take a lot of their time.

TendrilSavant
8th Oct 2013, 00:18
First post!

Speculation over Razielim devolved state: Is it possible that Raziel's torturous journey through the vortex might have affected his sires? Maybe trough some unknown link to him?

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 00:54
Speculation over Razielim devolved state: Is it possible that Raziel's torturous journey through the vortex might have affected his sires? Maybe trough some unknown link to him?

Actually, that is our main theory now: that the vampires have some kind of link with it's... I dunno, father? huehue. The main arguments that sustents the idea are:
1- The one who gave us the theory: Razielim being that ugly, reminding Raziel on that blue ugly form.
2- The Lieutenants having devolved so fast when in Kain's absence, but not at all when he was still there.
3- Razielim developed wings right after Raziel were thown in tha abyss.

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 01:33
It is fairly reasonable. I only wonder about Dumah being staked... I always thought that it was Nosgoth falling closer to decay because the pillars were never restored. Speculation vs speculation. I do like that they cite Kain's absence; interesting.



First off, nothing said here is meant as hostile :) ( the post is long and looking rant-like lol)

Where is proof of that idea of human shape and the amount of Kain's soul are connected?

How can you reconcile this ex Turel: Biped SR1(edited out) or Quadraped Defiance? Yet in some people's minds, there is no conflict between the two forms because they are "both correct"...even if they are mutually exclusive....

Look at the final forms of #lieutenants and their ---clans:

1. Raziel Unknown
---unknown
2. Turel SR1 unknown (humanoid). Defiance (bat-like quadraped)
---SR1 bipeds. (now that we know that was Turel's intended model. Where does that leave us on his clan's appearance?)
3. Dumah Humanoid
---humanoid
(4.) Rahab (legless merman)
---bipedal amphibian monsters.
(5.) Zephon (immobile insectoid)
---Bipedal semi quadrapedal...
6. Melchiah Beastly humanoid (atrophied legs and freaky hands)
---humanoid

I could easily concede on Melchiah.
Dumah is really the Only humanoid lieutenant.

There is no trend. They do not become more or less human in order. I'm a statistician(c); the above could be an ordinal variable since we know that's the order that they recieved the greatest proportion of Kain's soul.
On the other hand, ranking how humanoid the lieutenants are..., it would be a 'nominal' variable; there is no order and there are too many missing values. Who looks more human Raziel or Melchiah? Raziel is dead...Turel...cut from SR1...magically summoned to a new timeline in Defiance...so Turel or Melchiah? Turel Does have feet...? >_>

(I'm not prone to nerdy rants...I just finished a Massive biostatistics assignment that had us running data and labeling variables lol)

Back to Kain's soul, we know that Melchiah did not get enough of Kain's soul to stave off the rot from his resurrected corpse. Raziel knew that Before he hit the abyss. D/evolution didn't seem to start day 1. Kain was still around, so a present sire should stave off immediate devolution. Melchiah's rotting skin was explained as a result of being the shafted baby brother :P Nupraptor was never mentioned.


Hehe and Raziel evolved wings by falling into the abyss :P But in seriousness, the surroundings were never mentioned. Did Melchiah learn to walk through walls because he got so huge? Turelim & telekinesis... SR1 we got the ability from a relic Morlok (sp) was carrying, not from consuming someone's soul... Rahab became more sensitive to light...how? What about Turelim and Dumahim? Vampires could not have survived water, so evolving water resistance over time is not the best explanation...


Yes! :)
that means extrapolation, not fact, even if it strikes me as reasonable. It's true that they didn't grow wings.


More reasonable speculation. I can't argue with that :)



Correlation does not equal causation.

You misunderstand evolution. Creatures won't evolve blindness in response to darkness; creatures that are blind do just as well as creatures that can see when there is no light. Creatures that can see do better where they can use their vision. Life lives where it can survive. Survivors have offspring and thus they continue to exist. That's how evolution works.
Zephonim could even have moved into Janos' retreat by scaling the walls...ignoring the big hole, of course. Zephonim also spun webs around prey...

[I]Basketball players jumping? That theory was written of decades ago... Jean Baptiste Lamark. Look up "giraffe stretching its neck." :) [/ I]


--------------------

In truth, there are facts in the game, but people look at a few facts and then extrapolate. "Turelim should be glass cannons because they had a ranged attack and were lender legged"... ?!? -_-

Also, people draw a lot of conclusions from cut material.

There was a human cultist/priestess that would have given Raziel mindcontrol/possession, but she was cut from the game. People complain about Turelim and telekinesis but did Turel even use telekinesis? Molock did...with a relic...
There were holes in SR1, and I loved the game, and still do. That's why I don't like this 'Absolute Certainty' that so many seem to have. Does that excuse future mistakes? No! But, a little humility when quoting 'sources' seems reasonable. The dev's were right when they said that 'they are in an unexplored era of Nosgoth'.

I agree with a number of changes that people state; those were iconic features! I can't support the way that some people claim that these iconic features were explicitly explained and that the dev's were not smart enough to find them.

Look at SR1, the clan leaders were not mirrored by their own clans, but their models were certainly inspired by their leaders. A little variation can be acceptable.
Honestly imagine Rahab fully d/evolved. Now, would you have given his clan legs? If Rahabim can have legs, I'm ok with Razielim having shoulder mounted wings. (Lower spine is certainly more unique, but 'meh' it isn't exactly lore breaking). Would I prefer them to be lower set? Yes, I would prefer that and it would be awesome. Now the question would be if the devs are able to redo all of the animations for their wings, as the trailer demonstrated that they are used in their attacks. Is the opportunity cost for lower mounted wings lower than using that time to add more features to the game? A great many on the forum would think so. It is a decision that they must make. I definitely would like pointy ears and more visible fangs.

Dumah being staked, he was still close to his brood in body and spirit, his spirit was trapped close to his body in the spectral realm so it is safe to say he could still maintain a link to his brood, Raziel was thrown into the abyss and his body fully entered the spectral plane and so he lacked a physical body to maintain a link to his brood.

By the brood resembling their sire and devolving faster I refer to the SR 1 counter parts (Turel was indeed intended as bipedal in SR1 and his brood closely resemble him )
A lieutenant is 1 cycle of pupation ahead of his brood, I said that the less of the sire's soul a lieutenant has, the more he devolves during one cycle of pupation.
As it stands:
SR 1:
Raziel unknown
Brood unknown

Turel humanoid
Brood humanoid

Dumah humanoid
Brood humanoid

Rahab half humanoid
Brood humanoid

Zephon non humanoid insectoid
Brood quadrupedal insectoid (somewhat humanoid)

Melchiah non humanoid mass of flesh
Brood humanoid corpses

So in descending order, the generals look less like their brood and also more beastial the less they received of their gift;
also if you take into account that the Razielim devolve faster now because of the missing lieutenant ( as the devs said ) they still look humanoid albeit monstrous so even with such a fast devolution they are still resembling what they were before they started devolving.

The devolution is done by pupating stages, and with each stage the less a lieutenant has of Kain's soul, the more he devolves during each stage, that is why the last 2 lieutenants don't look anything like their brood ( remember the lieutenants are 1 stage ahead )

I don't understand your comment on the rot of Melchiah I never said that was a factor, nor do I consider it a mark of devolution it is simply a trait that Melchiah suffers from due to him receiving the least of Kain's gift he had it since his resurrection, it isn't a devolution result.

As for basketball, I understand evolution my friend and I never said basketball players evolve to be taller, their children aren't taller, I mean they adapt to it, you must remember vampires don't 'evolve' in the true sense of the word, they adapt and change over cycles of pupation, they don't produce natural offspring, they are adapting/developing new traits.

And when I said surrounding conditions were a factor I said just that, a factor not a fundamental one, Rahabim developed resistance to water due to being around it, Turel went blind because of the surrounding darkness, his eyes were of no use and so his pupation discarded their sight and focused on his hearing, in Defiance he uses a mixture of telekinetic blasts and sound to find and attack Raziel, and you defeat him by disrupting this with the gongs (think of a bat and his echolocation). The vampires also develop and enhance natural abilities they had aside from surrounding influenced conditions (Turelim telekinesis as an example).


Also using math to deduce stuff, no offense intended here, that doesn't work at all, there are too many variables for you to have a solid equation, math rarely works in real life situations, try playing dota or league of legends and due the math on how often you should crit during a game based on your stats, I did the math, turns out I can shove that paper up my teachers ass cause the result I had in the game was nothing compared to what I got on paper.

Also about people who only look at certain facts and extrapolate, they are generally taken down pretty fast by over analytic fans like us :D, your example of Turelim being class cannons was shot down with the logical conclusion that Turelim in SR1 are the last opponents you face and are the most durable, glass cannon makes absolutely no sense for Turelim. Something that indeed doesn't seem to make sense is the Razielim being scout class, they were the strongest vampires in the land aside from the Lieutenants.

There are many problems with "Nosgoth" but there are some basic aspects of the vampires that this game ignores, Talons and logical de/evolution is one of them (Turel having a devolved face before ears is a good example) and while these things can be explained by bending the lore, it would simply mock the current cannon too much.

Umbralim
8th Oct 2013, 01:58
One thing I've always speculated concerning the de-evolution is if it is possible that its not so much the curse of nupraptor that causes it, but the apostateness of the vampires soul. The elder god, and Janos continuously speak of the dangers of being separated from the purifying cycle of life and death for to long, and the wheel of fate. We see Vorador change into a form unlike the ancient vampires or anything else we've seen, despite never being a guardian after several thousand years of life. Janos mentions briefly that his guardianship as the 1oth guardian sustained him which is why he never devolved. what if Nuprators curse simply removed that sustainment from Kain and thus his soul and the souls of his children continue to rot in their bodies, and their bodies transform to match them. This would explain why the Razielim devolved faster than the others, being so heavily persecuted probably was very taxing on their souls and thus caused them to rot further.

of course this is assuming the EG wasn't simply bull****ting.

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 02:15
One thing I've always speculated concerning the de-evolution is if it is possible that its not so much the curse of nupraptor that causes it, but the apostateness of the vampires soul. The elder god, and Janos continuously speak of the dangers of being separated from the purifying cycle of life and death for to long, and the wheel of fate. We see Vorador change into a form unlike the ancient vampires or anything else we've seen, despite never being a guardian after several thousand years of life. Janos mentions briefly that his guardianship as the 1oth guardian sustained him which is why he never devolved. what if Nuprators curse simply removed that sustainment from Kain and thus his soul and the souls of his children continue to rot in their bodies, and their bodies transform to match them. This would explain why the Razielim devolved faster than the others, being so heavily persecuted probably was very taxing on their souls and thus caused them to rot further.

of course this is assuming the EG wasn't simply bull****ting.

It is heavily implied that the EG was full of bull :D and was merely a parasite feeding on the souls summoned to the wheel of fate, and that he didn't actually remake Raziel, he did however form a link with Raziel that allows him to feed of the souls Raziel absorbs (keep in mind creatures of the spectral realm naturally have this ability and Raziel did indeed become native to the spectral realm)

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 02:20
It is heavily implied that the EG was full of bull :D and was merely a parasite feeding on the souls summoned to the wheel of fate, and that he didn't actually remake Raziel, he did however form a link with Raziel that allows him to feed of the souls Raziel absorbs (keep in mind creatures of the spectral realm naturally have this ability and Raziel did indeed become native to the spectral realm)

But not EVERY creatures from spectral had this ability.

Anansios
9th Oct 2013, 11:57
Normally I avoid pointless conversation, but you're not an ******* and are actually pleasant :D A rarity!

Dumah being staked, he was still close to his brood in body and spirit, his spirit was trapped close to his body in the spectral realm so it is safe to say he could still maintain a link to his brood, Raziel was thrown into the abyss and his body fully entered the spectral plane and so he lacked a physical body to maintain a link to his brood.


I'll buy that.



By the brood resembling their sire and devolving faster I refer to the SR 1 counter parts (Turel was indeed intended as bipedal in SR1 and his brood closely resemble him )
A lieutenant is 1 cycle of pupation ahead of his brood, I said that the less of the sire's soul a lieutenant has, the more he devolves during one cycle of pupation.
As it stands:
SR 1:
Raziel unknown
Brood unknown

Turel humanoid
Brood humanoid

Dumah humanoid
Brood humanoid

Rahab half humanoid
Brood humanoid

Zephon non humanoid insectoid
Brood quadrupedal insectoid (somewhat humanoid)

Melchiah non humanoid mass of flesh
Brood humanoid corpses

So in descending order, the generals look less like their brood and also more beastial the less they received of their gift;


So, when presented with the choice between a character model that was removed from the game due to budget and time constraints, and a finished game that (to my limited knowledge) was not cut short and featured a fully realized model of a lieutenant that disrupts your theory, you choose the model that might have been and best supports your theory.
Did the makers in Defiance get it wrong?



also if you take into account that the Razielim devolve faster now because of the missing lieutenant ( as the devs said ) they still look humanoid albeit monstrous so even with such a fast devolution they are still resembling what they were before they started devolving.


How can they rapidly devolve a new form and simultaneously look like they did before? So ther devolution is just becoming uglier? This is speculation. We don't know what they looked like...



The devolution is done by pupating stages, and with each stage the less a lieutenant has of Kain's soul, the more he devolves during each stage, that is why the last 2 lieutenants don't look anything like their brood ( remember the lieutenants are 1 stage ahead )


1 stage ahead? Where did that come from?


I don't understand your comment on the rot of Melchiah... it isn't a devolution result.


Other people frequently confuse those two. You and I do not :)



As for basketball, I understand evolution my friend


I wasn't sure if you did. That is a subtlety that a number of people confuse... good to hear that you aren't one of them. :D



And when I said surrounding conditions were a factor I said just that, a factor not a fundamental one, Rahabim developed resistance to water due to being around it, Turel went blind because of the surrounding darkness, his eyes were of no use and so his pupation discarded their sight and focused on his hearing, in Defiance he uses a mixture of telekinetic blasts and sound to find and attack Raziel, and you defeat him by disrupting this with the gongs (think of a bat and his echolocation). The vampires also develop and enhance natural abilities they had aside from surrounding influenced conditions (Turelim telekinesis as an example).


When was it stated that Rahab was ever around water? It wasn't. Was it stated in an interview somewhere? I don't generally read them...

Where was it stated that Turel entered a state of change while in that 'darkness'? I rewatched their meeting. Vampires die in the light, so they all live in darkness, save for torches. I'd guess his blindness had a lot to do with his captivity and possession. A guess, but looking back at his comment "there was darkness and great hunger, and then I was found" he could have been blinded in transit. If you're blind, there certainly is abundant darkness. (funny enough, I hardly noticed he was blind. I assumed he didn't recognize the blue corpse of Raziel but recognized his voice and scent... amazing how the mind fills in the blanks! haha. Explains his poor battle prowess)

Influential conditions is pure speculation. Had it been stated, there would be, at least, glimmers of info on what caused other clans to evolve as they did. Raziel's description in the SR1 beginning was our major source of info about how much they changed. We don't really know the age difference between Kain and his lieutenants.

Alson WTH would you call Dumah's ability? Lol. "Duck duck strangle the goose with a blue ribbon of energy"? :p No one bugs the devs requesting THAT ability, lol. (I remember trying to see if enough ribbons could kill a vampire...nope! You could wrap several at once! Even kill humans!)

They do develop intrinsic abilities and they also inherited some of Kain's to an extent. Kain had telekinesis, kain could do a mist form...Turel & Melchiah? offshoots?



Also using math to deduce stuff, no offense intended here, that doesn't work at all, there are too many variables for you to have a solid equation, math rarely works in real life situations, try playing dota or league of legends and due the math on how often you should crit during a game based on your stats, I did the math, turns out I can shove that paper up my teachers ass cause the result I had in the game was nothing compared to what I got on paper.


Dude, everything on a computer IS math. Computer games just utilize randomized variables (which actually have equations to generate random numbers because computers, being bound by math, can't truly be random) Look up the controversy of the Snow den files. My government worked at cracking many of the random number generator programs that are used for encryption.

In terms of real life, math is still used for everything. Every scientific study that's published tries to pass statistical significance to see if something really happened or if it was 'random chance'. Stockmarket, expiration dates, marketing, medicine, commercial audiences...gambling (that's why counting cards at a casino will get you killed...it's math and can be figured out using statistics ) name it and they use math. I'm studying statistics because I love biology, not because I love math. :)
I sound like a corny teacher, lol.

So for your 'crits' probability is just chance. It is never a guarantee. A coin has lands on either heads or tails. One or the other
"Or maybe it lands on its edge"... 'Hush Kain, I'm making an example'...
If a coin lands on heads 100 times in a row, is the coin more or less likely to land on tails for the next toss?
The answer is nope, each toss is independent. What happens before or after doesn't matter.
Your crits will be the same way. A 10% crit rate does not mean 10% of your attacks will crit.
I don't want to get any nerdier, but when you want to find the chance of something happening in a row, you multiply each chance for every time you expect it to happen. 3 consecutive crits with a 10% crit rate means .1 *. 1 * .1= 0.001 or a 0.1% chance to get 3 crits in a row. Or reversed 99.9% of the time you are likely to make 3 regular attacks in a row :)



Also about people who only look at certain facts and extrapolate, they are generally taken down pretty fast by over analytic fans like us :D, your example of Turelim being class cannons was shot down with the logical conclusion that Turelim in SR1 are the last opponents you face and are the most durable, glass cannon makes absolutely no sense for Turelim. Something that indeed doesn't seem to make sense is the Razielim being scout class, they were the strongest vampires in the land aside from the Lieutenants.



I also think the idea of Turelim being glass cannons is ridiculous, but many people here are saying that they should be, or claiming that they actually were glass cannons in SR1... (perhaps they are confusing SC2 hydralisks :P)

Even Razielim being scouts is not a bad idea when you realize scouts need agility. Flying is as agile as one can get. Being a scout doesn't imply being weak. A scout can be strong (skirmishers) or weak (spies). Scouting is just a noun. Burrowing in the ground M, clinging to ceilings Z, lurking in waterways Rh, and flying out of sight Rz are all excellent ways to scout.

Mixing videogame archtypes is why people feel that characters must have specific balances of traits, forgetting that those very traits were given to Create balance and enhance strategy. The differences between chess and checkers :)



There are many problems with "Nosgoth" but there are some basic aspects of the vampires that this game ignores, Talons and logical de/evolution is one of them (Turel having a devolved face before ears is a good example) and while these things can be explained by bending the lore, it would simply mock the current cannon too much.

When it comes to talons, my question is are characters Fledglings or Adult vampires. I think they should simply let talons be unlockable. It would be easier for devs... and a nod to the franchise.
human corpses have 5 fingers and they eventually do change.

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 12:49
Soo many points and notifications.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 12:53
Soo many points and notifications.

I actually was too lazy to read it =P

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 13:14
I actually was too lazy to read it =P

I felt obliged to read through since I was gone for a week on vacation =)

Denam_Pavel
9th Oct 2013, 13:23
Dumah and Melchiah's special ability had more to do with being Revived vampires then anything they inherited from Kain. And Rahab did say his strength was born from overcoming a weakness. So yeah I'd he became what he was out neccisity because he was trapped somewhere underwater or where the surface had to much sunlight then anything else.

Anansios
9th Oct 2013, 13:26
A last thought on ears...
I never thought of this before, but most of the vampires lost their ears. Turel, Turelim, and Melchiahim were the only ones that had ears. Every other lieutenant was pretty much earless. Even Kain lost his ears.

Makes for an interesting evolution. Round ears > Pointy ears >No ears.
I wonder what the exact details were like. Precious little info was actually given on vampiric pupation.



Dumah and Melchiah's special ability had more to do with being Revived vampires then anything they inherited from Kain. And Rahab did say his strength was born from overcoming a weakness. So yeah I'd he became what he was out neccisity because he was trapped somewhere underwater or where the surface had to much sunlight then anything else.

The SR1 Intro specifically stated that Kain would enter the state of change first and then his lieutenants would follow suit, inheriting gifts after him. Raziel got wings before Kain, and that started the premise of the whole game. Melchiah's and Turel's abilities do differ from Kain's exact ability, so saying they directly inherited his gift Could be disputed. Kain & Melchiah's abilities were Mighty similar, though. BO2 had it, I'm not sure if Defiance did, but there was the mist-dodge, if I remember correctly.

As far as Rahab, all vampires were weakened by water and sunlight. Older vampires could resist filtered light, but Fledglings were obliterated. Look back at SR1. Rahab overcame one of their weaknesses, but became hyper sensitive to another one.

Being that water kills even Kain (& Raziel), I would imagine Rahab learned that he could resist/ignore water, rather than willingly becoming waterproof :P

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 13:30
A last thought on ears...
I never thought of this before, but most of the vampires lost their ears. Turel, Turelim, and Melchiahim were the only ones that had ears. Every other lieutenant was pretty much earless. Even Kain lost his ears.

Makes for an interesting evolution. Round ears > Pointy ears >No ears.
I wonder what the exact details were like. Precious little info was actually given on vampiric pupation.

Kain had ears until the end =P in defiance you can see his ears u.u Where did you miss them?

Anansios
9th Oct 2013, 13:44
I looked at the Defiance cover. I see his bony crest.... He does have an earring. It kind of sticks in there :P

Familiar
http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/legacy-of-kain-defiance/kain.jpg

Something new
http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/video-games/Legacy-of-Kain-Defiance/
I've never seen the above. That could be blassifiied as an ear.

Still, it's frustrating to have every other point ignored and only my weakest point picked out. I feel as if I am wasting my breath... Well, at least you weren't hostile. :/

LordNekronom
9th Oct 2013, 14:15
So, when presented with the choice between a character model that was removed from the game due to budget and time constraints, and a finished game that (to my limited knowledge) was not cut short and featured a fully realized model of a lieutenant that disrupts your theory, you choose the model that might have been and best supports your theory.
Did the makers in Defiance get it wrong?


Ok you got me on that one :D





How can they rapidly devolve a new form and simultaneously look like they did before? So ther devolution is just becoming uglier? This is speculation. We don't know what they looked like...

Correct, the first signs of de/evolution is looking more monstrous, while retaining a humanoid body plan. ( 2 front limbs, 2 hind )




1 stage ahead? Where did that come from?

Simple, the lieutenants are 1 state of change behind Kain (as stated by Raziel in the SR 1 intro ). A small mistake some make people make is that Raziel surpassed Kain on stages, or evolved more during his stage, untrue, he simply progressed on his own evolutionary path, Turel already had larger ears, and Rahad had gills, the 'jealous whim' for wich Kain threw Raziel into the abyss was that his change granted him the gift of flight, not to mention it was more obvious than his siblings. Remember how kain has that thick wrinkled muscular skin and his ears and facial traits? The lieutenants were never shown with those traits and it is safe to say they are unique to Kain.



When was it stated that Rahab was ever around water? It wasn't. Was it stated in an interview somewhere? I don't generally read them...

Rahab himself said so, a weakness overcome, and his domain is the drowned abbey, I doubt he would willingly chose to live in a place filled with water, it must have been some cataclysm or something that caused his domain to become submerged underwater and thus force him and his brood to develop gills so that they won't have reduced territory when compared to the other clans, and when they became fully immune to submersion they completely moved into the abbey as it was safe from other vampires (civil wars and such, remember Dumahim were found on Razielim territory and the Zephonim as well made their main domain in a fortress weapon so the civil wars may very well have continued after the events of Nosgoth , this is speculation :D)

Also try the wikia for this, they generally mention interviews and such when they tell information legacyofkain.wikia.com



Where was it stated that Turel entered a state of change while in that 'darkness'? I rewatched their meeting. Vampires die in the light, so they all live in darkness, save for torches. I'd guess his blindness had a lot to do with his captivity and possession. A guess, but looking back at his comment "there was darkness and great hunger, and then I was found" he could have been blinded in transit. If you're blind, there certainly is abundant darkness. (funny enough, I hardly noticed he was blind. I assumed he didn't recognize the blue corpse of Raziel but recognized his voice and scent... amazing how the mind fills in the blanks! haha. Explains his poor battle prowess)

Good point :D



Influential conditions is pure speculation. Had it been stated, there would be, at least, glimmers of info on what caused other clans to evolve as they did. Raziel's description in the SR1 beginning was our major source of info about how much they changed. We don't really know the age difference between Kain and his lieutenants.

Alson WTH would you call Dumah's ability? Lol. "Duck duck strangle the goose with a blue ribbon of energy"? :p No one bugs the devs requesting THAT ability, lol. (I remember trying to see if enough ribbons could kill a vampire...nope! You could wrap several at once! Even kill humans!)

Advanced telekinesis (Think of a how Kain holds his enemyes in the air in Defiance, same effect)



They do develop intrinsic abilities and they also inherited some of Kain's to an extent. Kain had telekinesis, kain could do a mist form...Turel & Melchiah? offshoots?

Yes, Kain also had a bat form, Raziel had wings, like I said before, conditions are 1 factor, they don't have to be a major one, most traits are advances of specialized forms of normal vampire abilities



Dude, everything on a computer IS math. Computer games just utilize randomized variables (which actually have equations to generate random numbers because computers, being bound by math, can't truly be random) Look up the controversy of the Snow den files. My government worked at cracking many of the random number generator programs that are used for encryption.

In terms of real life, math is still used for everything. Every scientific study that's published tries to pass statistical significance to see if something really happened or if it was 'random chance'. Stockmarket, expiration dates, marketing, medicine, commercial audiences...gambling (that's why counting cards at a casino will get you killed...it's math and can be figured out using statistics ) name it and they use math. I'm studying statistics because I love biology, not because I love math. :)
I sound like a corny teacher, lol.

:D pretty much like a corny teacher yes



So for your 'crits' probability is just chance. It is never a guarantee. A coin has lands on either heads or tails. One or the other
"Or maybe it lands on its edge"... 'Hush Kain, I'm making an example'...
If a coin lands on heads 100 times in a row, is the coin more or less likely to land on tails for the next toss?
The answer is nope, each toss is independent. What happens before or after doesn't matter.
Your crits will be the same way. A 10% crit rate does not mean 10% of your attacks will crit.
I don't want to get any nerdier, but when you want to find the chance of something happening in a row, you multiply each chance for every time you expect it to happen. 3 consecutive crits with a 10% crit rate means .1 *. 1 * .1= 0.001 or a 0.1% chance to get 3 crits in a row. Or reversed 99.9% of the time you are likely to make 3 regular attacks in a row :)

I just hate math since it leaves a large number of options in real life, as you just demonstrated, it is too much of a bother to apply it as it doesn't have set limits like it does on paper, there are too many factors to consider when making an accurate assumption based on math :D and the answer usually is has a large range of variables, i'll give you the exact problem that I have faced in Dota 1 a long time ago when pooling items was normal and you didn't have to input any codes, i'll give you the stats :
Barathum Greater bash chance : 19% and 2 sec duration/animation
Attack speed : 2 attacks per second
no evasion items, no bash items

Troll warlord: 1 skill 40% evasion
natural melee bash : 10 % chance 1 second duration
item bash: 20 % 1.5 second duration
Each of the bashes are separate from each other, if they happen at the same time the stronger is the one applied
1 butterfly item : 20% evasion

Health is similar between the 2

Barathum kept troll in greather bash almost constantly

I gave him my butterfly ( item effects stack up to items unless previously stated otherwise)

he barely beat barathum who kept him half the fight in greater bash.

so on first item build troll had 60% evasion right? that means bara has 40% chance to land a hit, out of those hits only 19% had a chance for a greater bash, when bara was almost full hp and troll was dead I wanted to punch my damned math teacher in the face for saying math is very useful to you in real life all those times :D







Even Razielim being scouts is not a bad idea when you realize scouts need agility. Flying is as agile as one can get. Being a scout doesn't imply being weak. A scout can be strong (skirmishers) or weak (spies). Scouting is just a noun. Burrowing in the ground M, clinging to ceilings Z, lurking in waterways Rh, and flying out of sight Rz are all excellent ways to scout.

Mixing videogame archtypes is why people feel that characters must have specific balances of traits, forgetting that those very traits were given to Create balance and enhance strategy. The differences between chess and checkers :)

True




When it comes to talons, my question is are characters Fledglings or Adult vampires. I think they should simply let talons be unlockable. It would be easier for devs... and a nod to the franchise.
human corpses have 5 fingers and they eventually do change.

Well, actually it depends on how far they are in the de/evolution stages as both fledgelings and adults have the talons in SR1 , if a vampire is showing monstrousdevolution I think it is safe to say it should have talons both as fledgeling and as adult, so aside from the Dumahim wich show no signs of devolving, the other 2 factions need them. Simply put, it doesn't look human ( not humanoid, human) it needs talons :D

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 14:21
I looked at the Defiance cover. I see his bony crest.... He does have an earring. It kind of sticks in there :P

Familiar
http://bestgamewallpapers.com/files/legacy-of-kain-defiance/kain.jpg

Something new
http://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/video-games/Legacy-of-Kain-Defiance/
I've never seen the above. That could be blassifiied as an ear.

Still, it's frustrating to have every other point ignored and only my weakest point picked out. I feel as if I am wasting my breath... Well, at least you weren't hostile. :/

Ok, just for you do not feel bad, I just read your post =P
About turel's blindness and (d)evolving in general: there is a new theory coming out, proposed by Vampmaster and me, in another forum: Kain being the master of the Lieutenants, he would "decide", probably without noticing, what the (d)evolution of the lieutenants would be, based in their acts. For an example: If Lieutenant Zephon acts as a spider, prefering dark caves as home and appreciating spiders over other animals or something like that, Kain would start thinking of him as a spider, and so he became. The other fact that sustents this theory if the link between master and pupil is that in absence of the master, vampires (d)evolve much faster. As Raziel was cast in the abyss, we have the razielim as they are in Nosgoth. As Kain was abscent, the Lieutenants gone (d)evolutioning faster: Dumah was dead short after Raziel were cast into the abyss, and was already deformed, an a bit later, Turel, Zephon, Melchiah and Rahab were already fully monstruous.

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 14:57
I´m sorry guys, but I couldn´t resist editing this... :D (I changed the Turelim only)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0AX3sH84U1Y/UlVt42rtWCI/AAAAAAAAEfo/5dDfm1chsyo/s912/Turelim-edit.png

Vampmaster
9th Oct 2013, 15:05
Did you edit the Razielim in the back? That one looks even better than the other one you did. Shame it's not bigger/higher res though.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 15:11
I´m sorry guys, but I couldn´t resist editing this... :D
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0AX3sH84U1Y/UlVt42rtWCI/AAAAAAAAEfo/5dDfm1chsyo/s912/Turelim-edit.png

I can't belive! Finally I can see actual nosgoth vampires! =P

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 15:12
Ah thanks, but I only edited the Turelim :) it begged for longer ears, fangs and red eyes xD

Umbralim
9th Oct 2013, 15:12
Hey not sure if some of you have probably already seen this but from what I'm told, crystal dynamics also played around with the Razielim having an appearance and this is a sketch they made of what they might of looked like had they done so, What do you think by comparison?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226151635/legacyofkain/images/2/2b/SR1-Enemy-UnusedVampireWinged.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/2/2b/Nosgoth-Character-Sentinel-OfficialSite.png

I for one think their both nice but I kind of prefer SE's model.

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 15:20
Wasn´t that sketch from some unrelated game though?

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 15:24
Hey not sure if some of you have probably already seen this but from what I'm told, crystal dynamics also played around with the Razielim having an appearance and this is a sketch they made of what they might of looked like had they done so, What do you think by comparison?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226151635/legacyofkain/images/2/2b/SR1-Enemy-UnusedVampireWinged.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/2/2b/Nosgoth-Character-Sentinel-OfficialSite.png

I for one think their both nice but I kind of prefer SE's model.

I prefer SE's. I hate this kind of thing that loses the arms in favour to wings. even dragons for me HAVE to get arm-like limbs.
But I think SE's Razielim looks too... demoniac. The wings should be in the spine, not in the shoulders. That skin... COME ON, why??? plus, the face is really strange.

Edit: his face remembers me of a dog.

Umbralim
9th Oct 2013, 15:25
Wasn´t that sketch from some unrelated game though?

not sure it could of been part of "Shifter" (the game that was converted into Soul Reaver) or it could have been made after but you can see some similarities like the hunched back position and the distorting face, except the ears :P

Umbralim
9th Oct 2013, 15:30
I prefer SE's. I hate this kind of thing that loses the arms in favour to wings. even dragons for me HAVE to get arm-like limbs.
But I think SE's Razielim looks too... demoniac. The wings should be in the spine, not in the shoulders. That skin... COME ON, why??? plus, the face is really strange.

Edit: his face remembers me of a dog.

well the skin is rotting while growing a carapace, I can't imagine it to look pretty, as it says in the bio they are "Prone to Decay".

Vampmaster
9th Oct 2013, 15:44
I prefer SE's. I hate this kind of thing that loses the arms in favour to wings. even dragons for me HAVE to get arm-like limbs.
But I think SE's Razielim looks too... demoniac. The wings should be in the spine, not in the shoulders. That skin... COME ON, why??? plus, the face is really strange.

Edit: his face remembers me of a dog.

Speaking of spines, Raziel had two of them.
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 16:07
well the skin is rotting while growing a carapace, I can't imagine it to look pretty, as it says in the bio they are "Prone to Decay".

What about the rotting and the carapace? why not normal skin? that is the point.


Speaking of spines, Raziel had two of them.
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3

I actually never realized it =O XD

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 19:05
Yeah that double spine thing is interesting design :) do you think that Razielim should have the same thing as well?

Anyway, I didn´t know where else to post this but I do stand behind my claim that the Lieutenants and their kin are not connected in a way - when a Lieutenant dies/is missing it does not cause accelerated devolution, it just doesn´t make any sense to me.

And by mere coincidence I found this post by Daniel Cabuco:
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=149#p604

Dumahim, once they lost their clan leader, were easy prey for the other clans and Vampire Hunters. They were originally weapon based vampires, but when they started to go feral, using only their tongues as a weapon.. well things didn't go so well. Think about natural defenses and devolution.
A)They lost their ability to use trained weapons
B) They don't have the natural abilities of the other clans: Rahabim can swim, Melchiahim can use spare parts off anything, and are resilient, Zephonhim can climb walls, Turelhim can blast you with TK and are damn strong.. Dumahim ..stab you with their tongues. Their devolution wasn't tied to their leader, but their survival was.

Also, good to know that Kain is spared any devolution, (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148#p278) permanently.

MasterShuriko
9th Oct 2013, 19:07
I´m sorry guys, but I couldn´t resist editing this... :D (I changed the Turelim only)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0AX3sH84U1Y/UlVt42rtWCI/AAAAAAAAEfo/5dDfm1chsyo/s912/Turelim-edit.png

Sweetly done there m8!

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:12
Yeah that double spine thing is interesting design :) do you think that Razielim should have the same thing as well?

Anyway, I didn´t know where else to post this but I do stand behind my claim that the Lieutenants and their kin are not connected in a way - when a Lieutenant dies/is missing it does not cause accelerated devolution, it just doesn´t make any sense to me.

And by mere coincidence I found this post by Daniel Cabuco:
http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=149#p604


Also, good to know that Kain is spared any devolution, (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148#p278) permanently.

So you say that Vamps go crazy without the leader? I don't think so... I thought in the master link thing because of VtM, but I can't see why they would go crazy u.u

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 19:14
No, they went crazy cause they carry Nupraptor´s curse which caused their madness and devolution. Without Dumah´s leadership, they scattered all across Nosgoth and became easy prey of other clans.

Thanks, MasterShuriko! :)

Lord_Aevum
9th Oct 2013, 19:16
I cannot agree more about this fan theory, Raina. Not trying to be a conservative pedant, but linking child and sire in LoK in that way through the blood curse would just feel too uncomfortable to me, given what's come before. It's not an impossibility (if you completely ignore Daniel) but just something that doesn't seem to have any hint of a solid basis in Nosgoth already. Would feel like less of a clever, surprising twist we didn't think of, and like more of a newly-invented logicality shoehorned in for the sake of this game – just like the Whisper in BO2.

@Umbralim: it is not confirmed that that creature is a Razielim. It is indeed a piece of Crystal Dynamics concept art for SR1, and I agree that it's the perfect basis for an adult Razielim, but nobody has ever said that that's how they were officially intended to look.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:24
I cannot agree more about this fan theory, Raina. Not trying to be a conservative pedant, but linking child and sire in LoK in that way through the blood curse would just feel too uncomfortable to me, given what's come before. It's not an impossibility (if you completely ignore Daniel) but just something that doesn't seem to have any hint of a solid basis in Nosgoth already. Would feel like less of a clever, surprising twist we didn't think of, and like more of a newly-invented logicality shoehorned in for the sake of this game – just like the Whisper in BO2.

@Umbralim: it is not confirmed that that creature is a Razielim. It is indeed a piece of Crystal Dynamics concept art for SR1, and I agree that it's the perfect basis for an adult Razielim, but nobody has ever said that that's how they were officially intended to look.

I actually think nonsense the Dumahim going crazy... Why would they use the tongs and not some sticks and stones? =P that could breack Raziel's bones... easely =P

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 19:26
I do not understand what you mean, they use tongues in the game. All of the clans went crazy in the end because of Nupraptor´s curse, that is a fact. None of them also use any weapons because they became feral or mindless beasts if you like - how could they use anything else besides their claws, etc.?

Lord_Aevum
9th Oct 2013, 19:30
I actually think nonsense the Dumahim going crazy... Why would they use the tongs and not some sticks and stones? =P that could breack Raziel's bones... easely =P

What? It's not nonsense. They use their tongues because that's their natural weapon, and they've devolved into feral monsters, as Raziel states when he first sees them at the beginning of SR1. Sticks and stones and any other weapons are irrelevancies to them.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:32
I do not understand what you mean - all of the clans went crazy because of Nupraptor´s curse in the end, that is a fact. None of the clans use any weapons because they became feral - mindless beasts - how would they use anything besides their claws?

But why it passed on to kain's minions? Kain was the one cursed, and curses are not meat to be hereditary.

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 19:36
Uhm, but Nupraptor´s curse is the sole reason his empire fell to pieces - all of his children devolved because of it and became mindless creatures.

Lord_Aevum
9th Oct 2013, 19:36
This is because of the unique method Kain uses to pass the dark gift on to vampires. As the LoK developers put it:


Without going into too much detail, there are various ways a vampire can be born/created.
The ancient/original Vampires (like Janos) had one method, by which Vorador was raised, and by which Vorador would also raise his vampire offspring. This would be a more "traditional" method, where the vampiric curse is passed from one vampire to a human.
Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.


Q: Why did Kain's lieutenants and their children in Soul Reaver 1 devolve? Was it because each of them inherited the corruption from his soul?
A: Yes, it was because of the corruption of Kain's soul. The amount of devolution was directly related to how much of his soul they received.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:45
I know that Kain put his soul in the lieutenants, But I just don't get why they went crazy, because Nupraptor's curse would be a body curse, otherwise, if it affected souls, the dead soul of Ariel would become crazy too, because she was still the balance guardian when Nupraptor corrupted everyone. As I remember, Kain hadn't even meet Ariel by then, and even less became the Scion of Balance, as it just happened when he killed Nupraptor, right?

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 19:52
As Ariel died, Kain was born as the new Balance guardian, and at that moment Nupraptor cast his curse upon the Circle. Ariel is not corrupted by the curse, Kain and his kin are. And it is a soul curse, not sure what you mean by "body"...

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 20:04
As Ariel died, Kain was born as the new Balance guardian, and at that moment Nupraptor cast his curse upon the Circle. Ariel is not corrupted by the curse, Kain and his kin are. And it is a soul curse, not sure what you mean by "body"...

So, Kain was born when ariel died? How many time there was without a balance guardian?
Or kain was REborn when Ariel died?

Vampmaster
9th Oct 2013, 20:12
Nupraptor's curse was an attack on thr guardians minds, but 'soul' is one of those abstract concepts that no one really agrees on. Is it the mind, a component of the mind, does it control the mind, is it even sentient?

Personally, I think in the LOK series, 'mind' is the closest thing you can get to a definition of the soul. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say cursing their minds is the same as cursing their souls. However, since no official definition has been given, it can only be my opinion.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 20:25
Nupraptor's curse was an attack on thr guardians minds, but 'soul' is one of those abstract concepts that no one really agrees on. Is it the mind, a component of the mind, does it control the mind, is it even sentient?

Personally, I think in the LOK series, 'mind' is the closest thing you can get to a definition of the soul. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say cursing their minds is the same as cursing their souls. However, since no official definition has been given, it can only be my opinion.

I think that mind and soul are totally different things, as Soul only gives life and mind, thinks rationally. For so, I think Soul is better linkd with the Energy pillar then with the Mind one.

RainaAudron
9th Oct 2013, 20:31
It is getting a bit too OT guys...

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 21:55
It is getting a bit too OT guys...

I agree, but I still can't understand it. Maybe we could discuss that later.

LordNekronom
10th Oct 2013, 11:26
So, Kain was born when ariel died? How many time there was without a balance guardian?
Or kain was REborn when Ariel died?

Kain was born as a human moments after Ariel died, just before Nupraptor found her dead body and started the corruption, he was reborn as a vampire later in life after he was assassinated by agents of Mortanius.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 12:01
Kain was born as a human moments after Ariel died, just before Nupraptor found her dead body and started the corruption, he was reborn as a vampire later in life after he was assassinated by agents of Mortanius.

Yeah, just searched it again. But I still can't stand that theory =P

LOFO1993
10th Oct 2013, 12:24
Kain was born as a human moments after Ariel died, just before Nupraptor found her dead body and started the corruption, he was reborn as a vampire later in life after he was assassinated by agents of Mortanius.

Exactly how I knew it.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 12:31
Exactly how I knew it.

Yeah, I remember it now too... But the thing is: madness isn't something hereditary, so the vampires of Kain's legacy (=P) shouldn't be affected by Nupraptor's curse.

LOFO1993
10th Oct 2013, 12:37
Yeah, I remember it now too... But the thing is: madness isn't something hereditary, so the vampires of Kain's legacy (=P) shouldn't be affected by Nupraptor's curse.

Yeah, they shouldn't and it was never said so far they were, nor it was suggested. The only "curse" affecting all the vampires is the original Hylden curse on the ancient vampires race, as far as it is said. Nupraptor's curse, after all, only prevents Kain from being the Scion of Balance, it does nothing else at all to him, so I don't see how, even if part of the curse happened somehow to be passed to his lieutenants, that would justify anything concerning them. No vampire under Kain's Empire is a Guardian, for the simple reason that the Pillars have already fallen, so there are no Guardians at all.

I didn't read the whole topic so forgive me if I say something stupid, but if Nupraptor's curse will be used to justify something random in this new game, well, that will be quite an inconsistency.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 12:52
Yeah, they shouldn't and it was never said so far they were, nor it was suggested. The only "curse" affecting all the vampires is the original Hylden curse on the ancient vampires race, as far as it is said. Nupraptor's curse, after all, only prevents Kain from being the Scion of Balance, it does nothing else at all to him, so I don't see how, even if part of the curse happened somehow to be passed to his lieutenants, that would justify anything concerning them. No vampire under Kain's Empire is a Guardian, for the simple reason that the Pillars have already fallen, so there are no Guardians at all.

I didn't read the whole topic so forgive me if I say something stupid, but if Nupraptor's curse will be used to justify something random in this new game, well, that will be quite an inconsistency.

Nope, we was discussing about why the (d)evolution was becoming faster. Me and Vampmaster came up with a theory about a link between a vampire and his "sons", that would come up because of the part of the soul that this "son" would receive from the vampire "father". Then, when the master was in absence, or suffering or anything, son would feel it and suffer the consequences... This is why the Razielim are so (d)evolved. But actually I think that Nupraptor's curse didn't actually prevented Kain from being the Scion of Balance, but made him to choose to destroy the pillars. It made Kain corrupt, and that's it.

Lord_Aevum
10th Oct 2013, 13:18
Yeah, they shouldn't and it was never said so far they were, nor it was suggested. The only "curse" affecting all the vampires is the original Hylden curse on the ancient vampires race, as far as it is said. Nupraptor's curse, after all, only prevents Kain from being the Scion of Balance, it does nothing else at all to him, so I don't see how, even if part of the curse happened somehow to be passed to his lieutenants, that would justify anything concerning them.

I'm sorry, but this must be made clear. We are not just passing on a crackpot theory we made up here, this is an old fact in the series' mythology which has been well known by fans for ten years. You need to acknowledge this piece of information if you are discussing Kain's vampires, because it's the one reason why their devolution exists or doesn't exist. It's the entire point of Defiance, too.

If you don't buy the previous official quotes I posted, perhaps these even more recent ones from the past year will clear up the matter beyond doubt:


I would say Kain hasn't started devolving yet. However the cracks in his skin do show the impurities in him. (As well as the rather large scar on his chest, which was healed when Raz purified him) Nupraptor's curse was a form of madness, which affected each person differently. For Kain, it influenced his physical evolution (because its influenced by the mind and personality). Think of it as a sort of genetic disorder that hampers the mind, simplifying it into its more base needs. Kain's willpower and mind were significant, but his sons were passed the tainted gifts, and were less well equipped to deal with it. ^ Source (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2217#p2217)


The clans begin their devolution, twisting under the curse of Nupraptor's spell, which forever damned Kain's creations to eventual monstrosity. Noting the number of fingers they have, it looks like they're devolving before they even reach an advanced state. ^ Source (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2819#p2819)


And yes, [Kain] being purified spared him that fate. [B]Any Vampires he made from there on would be pure as well. ^ Source (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=278#p278)


What I can tell you is that we're being very respectful to the pre-established lore and that Nosgoth is set in a previously unexplored era in the LoK timeline. It takes place during Raziel's fall down the Abyss/Lake of The Dead. When he enters the Abyss, Kain's Empire is in full swing. When he re-emerges, it's in ruins and it's clear Kain has been absent for quite some time (as evidenced by his lack of devolution following Nupraptor's curse as evinced by his Lieutenants. [...] If this is about the three fingered Vampires versus five fingered Vampires. then I can answer that. The Vampires in Nosgoth are still fledglings, albeit powerful ones¸ and thus don’t exhibit the advanced three-finger evinced by Kain and his Lieutenants. Equally, they have yet to mutate and devolve into the more beastly forms seen in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver as the effects of Nupraptor’s curse have yet to become so pronounced in this period (although the effects are most clearly visible amongst the Razielim, the oldest of all the Clans). ^ Source (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83657513&postcount=137)


We *also* see that Kain hasn't suffered any of the effects of Nupraptor's curse over time in the same way as the other Lieutenants and their Clans [...]. ^ Source (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83729065&postcount=346)

Vampmaster
10th Oct 2013, 13:42
Noting the number of fingers they have, it looks like they're devolving before they even reach an advanced state.

Even if that's the case, Turel's ears are *part* of his devolution and had begun growing larger before his increase in stature. So the Turelim should at least have his SR1 intro ears.

LOFO1993
10th Oct 2013, 13:50
I probably didn't explain my point clearly. My fault.


I think this is a terribly complicated matter, because in each game some elements form the previous games were re-invented to justify new elements, and at the same time some new elements tried to give old elements a new meaning.

Thinking of Blood Omen ONLY, Nupraptor's curse was something very different from what we are talking about now. It simply was the materialization of an already existent "possible unbalance" in the Circle; it was something very practical, not like a true curse. When it began, every Circle member was led to use his own powers to try doing something against Nosgoth and/or the other members of the Cricle. Nupraptor was the Guardian of the Mind, and he went insane, but he also made every other Guardian go insane. That was the original curse from Nupraptor. Why did that make the Guardians unsuitable for their role? Because, once gone insane, they didn't WANT to attend to their duties anymore. It wasn't something physically attached to them, it was their very actions that crumbled the Pillars.

Blood Omen was a very allegorical game, but that aspect of it was mostly lost because the later games tried to give new meaning to what it showed. I'm not debating that now we're saying that Nupraptor's curse is affecting him and his vampires and that it can make sense, but how consistent all of this actually can be with the many VERSIONS of the story and of the single events we saw in the various games. This makes sense NOW, but I doubt it would have in Soul Reaver as the game explained itself at the time (the most devolved vampires were the weakest ones, as Raziel says clearly, so devolution was because the lieutenants and in turns their children received only part of Kain's gift, which is completely different from this new explanation).


I'm not saying I'm AGAINST this idea, I was just thinking out loud about how it could fit with the many previous games explanations. I honestly don't mind if things this small are slightly adapted to justify some decisions taken for the new game (this series has always went on like this, let's not pretend that's not true). My only point (I honestly don't even remember in which thread I wrote it, might not be this one) was that the new vampires - and the razielims in particular - look uninspired and unappealing, IMHO of course.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 14:41
I will soon create a topic to discuss our theories, as we are completely off-topic here.

Lord_Aevum
10th Oct 2013, 14:46
No, I would never even want to deny that there's been reconceptualisation of the story – Soul Reaver itself is nothing but pure reconceptualisation which happened to work out well – but the series is still cohesive in its own reality, and has anything been taken away from the symbology of Nupraptor's madness? It's the same classical tragic flaw you see in countless anti-hero stories from Greek drama and elsewhere. As Kain is to the Fisher King or Oedipus, the curse is to his wound or his ignorance. We describe it as a curse because it's this same trope, but the more accurate term for it is "the corruption of the Pillars". It is still the insanity which compromises Kain, the corruption motif it offered from the beginning. He overcame it, which adds heroism to his character. The business with souls and the wasteland is more of a very long exploration into it than a contradiction, at least to me.

I continue to totally agree with you and all other posters that the Razielim need to be reworked, which hopefully steers this thread back on course (sorry for any derailment).

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 15:08
The new topic for us is already created and linked below: Let's stop this off-topic conversation and leave this thread to it's title's discussions.
Link to the new topic: http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7452&p=69828#post69828

lucinvampire
11th Oct 2013, 12:38
@ Raina – I have to say I love your modded pictures of the vampires – definitely takes them to more what was expected! :D

I know this has probably already been said here countless times (haven’t had time to read the full thread – wish I had more time too) but the vampires definitely need to be more Nosgothic in appearance – pointy ears, fangs, amber/red eyes, three fingers, cloven feet and some sort of clan allegiance stuff too…heh if they don’t want to change stuff before/in the initial release then I’d love for this to be additional content at a future date.

I’m really sounding like a broken record so will go away and back into my darkened hole.

Vampmaster
11th Oct 2013, 12:59
Did anyone ever find out if the creature posted here really was a Razielim?
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=111699

I'm not saying it needs to be exactly like that, but it might be cool to take some inspiration from it somewhere along the line.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 14:11
Did anyone ever find out if the creature posted here really was a Razielim?
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=111699

I'm not saying it needs to be exactly like that, but it might be cool to take some inspiration from it somewhere along the line.

It was not confirmed. It just leaked at the same time SR1 project was active, with no additional info.

LordNekronom
11th Oct 2013, 19:08
Gotta say that this thread has the most views on the forums, I guess we can expect them to change the models, if the devs don't plan on changing the current models to be more in tune with the established lore I'd say they have to reconsider the open development part of their advertisement :D, no offense intended there.

RemovedQuasar
13th Oct 2013, 13:02
I have a question about the vampires:

The sun will hurt them or not? I remember that only the weakest vampire could be damaged by the sun but i remember even that Rahaab is killed by the light of the sun, and he was a leader of a clan @_@

ZeroFernir
13th Oct 2013, 15:53
Gotta say that this thread has the most views on the forums, I guess we can expect them to change the models, if the devs don't plan on changing the current models to be more in tune with the established lore I'd say they have to reconsider the open development part of their advertisement :D, no offense intended there.

I just hope they do original vampire's skins.

Vampmaster
18th Oct 2013, 15:32
Has anyone seen the Turelim on the blog page yet? Please tell me that first pic is the revised one for the alpha. It looks much better!

LOFO1993
18th Oct 2013, 15:34
Has anyone seen the Turelim on the blog page yet? Please tell me that first pic is the revised one for the alpha. It looks much better!

Which page blog? I haven't seen any new skin for anything.

Vampmaster
18th Oct 2013, 15:44
This one:
http://www.nosgoth.com/blog

(BTW, to anyone who's under NDA, I obviously I didn't mean literally tell me without permission.)

LOFO1993
18th Oct 2013, 15:50
Thanks for the link.

I've not been invited to the alpha, so I guess I can speak freely. The first drawing actually looks very different from the game models we've seen so far. I HOPE they make the final model look more like this, but of course I have no clue about what they mean to do. The other drawings on the bottom are exactly like the vampires shown so far, but they are there probably only to show the different outfits.

TenebraeAeterna
18th Oct 2013, 16:24
Hmm...

The theory that the Razielim appear more devolved due to Raziel possessing the most significant portion of Kain's essence is sound. The pseudo reason behind why Raziel was cast into the abyss was because he was "evolving" faster and transcending beyond Kain himself, thus insulting his sire. So, it stands to reason that if Raziel was devolving faster...so too would his clan.

With that said, the grotesque condition of the Melchahim isn't due to devolution...it's because Melchiah possessing the least amount of Kain's essence and thus he and his clan have a physical degeneration issue. Think of it more along the lines of them lacking the regeneration abilities that all vampires inherit because they have the least amount of Kain's essence. Their devolution process seemed to enhance upon this weakness by attuning them to the underworld. It turned their clan weakness into a "strength."

With that said, I'm fine with giving the vampires subtly pointed ears that reflect how they should appear. This trait seems to be common amongst all vampires. The claws, however, are something that would take a great deal more time to develop from the five fingers of a human. You can see that the Razielim are starting to develop this with their fingers having a slightly fused appearance...which makes sense because they're "evolving" quicker than the other clans.

Now, I do believe that you should eventually get claws through a leveling up process that requires you to enter the pupating process. The forms that we see upon the sight should be the fledgling forms that, upon pupating, take on an appearance more akin to Soul Reaver. This leveling process could occur in game...or outside of such if we actually keep our character progression between matches.

That way, they don't alienate people who aren't familiar with the game while still presenting vampires that fit the lore. You start out more human-like in appearance...but you're going to eventually evolve into the more familiar forms that we all know and love. Still, seeing as how this is earlier in the history...these forms shouldn't look identical to the ones we encounter in LoK:SR, but very similar and an obvious stage in the evolutionary process.

BahamutKaiser
18th Oct 2013, 22:26
Given that cosmetics are the most emphasized selling point, I think different body types and external features are a good place for them to make a sale. Given the classic fan bases interest in the traditional look, there better off making the default generic and the special and nostalgic cosmetics sale items.

There's little reason not to sell this stuff unless they think different color scarves are gonna be a hot seller...

TenebraeAeterna
19th Oct 2013, 15:26
Given that cosmetics are the most emphasized selling point, I think different body types and external features are a good place for them to make a sale. Given the classic fan bases interest in the traditional look, there better off making the default generic and the special and nostalgic cosmetics sale items.

There's little reason not to sell this stuff unless they think different color scarves are gonna be a hot seller...

I agree completely, but a robust character customization system for their free based players is going to be a GREAT deal of the snaring point in combination to the gameplay. No one wants to look like a clone, so unless they have a rather in depth character customization that makes them feel unique and gives them the ability to associate with their character, they won't get hooked.

ZeroFernir
19th Oct 2013, 21:43
Has anyone seen the Turelim on the blog page yet? Please tell me that first pic is the revised one for the alpha. It looks much better!

Nope, I don't think so. the actual models come right below it, and still have no ears.

Vampmaster
19th Oct 2013, 21:49
Nope, I don't think so. the actual models come right below it, and still have no ears.

I assumed they were just drawn earlier, however George has since confirmed it was the other way around.

AlterRequiem
19th Oct 2013, 23:41
I have a question about the vampires:

The sun will hurt them or not? I remember that only the weakest vampire could be damaged by the sun but i remember even that Rahaab is killed by the light of the sun, and he was a leader of a clan @_@

Rahab was the only clan leader/greater vampire that had absolutely zero tolerance for sunlight. Aside from freshly made vampires, every other vampire was basically not at 100% while in sunlight.

TenebraeAeterna
20th Oct 2013, 05:11
I assumed they were just drawn earlier, however George has since confirmed it was the other way around.

He also gave us hints towards a potential pupation system...which may mean that the ears come later through this process. :)

It's possible that we start without the ears, without the familiar talons, and slowly progress towards having them as the game transpires or our character levels between games. (Whichever way they go.)

Vampmaster
20th Oct 2013, 10:42
But Turel did start to evolve the ears before before he got all giant, as seen in the SR1 intro. The Turelim in Nosgoth don't seem to have done that.

Denam_Pavel
20th Oct 2013, 13:22
But Turel did start to evolve the ears before before he got all giant, as seen in the SR1 intro. The Turelim in Nosgoth don't seem to have done that.

The idea seems to be that their devolution sets in more quickly with each subsequent generation. Sharpened ears are a part of legit vampire evolution as it is possessed by Kain, Vorador and all the lieutenants. Wings and the Turelims increase in size is not.

NickTsiou
20th Oct 2013, 13:25
Congratulations Raina the turelim is great but the razielim is just AMAZING. I would also prefer less decay and a more pale-ish humanoid skin but compared to the already existing model yours is 1000000 times better. I love the banner thing on the waist and the wings are how they should have been from the start.

It seems it was not that difficult to create more LOK like models and as we can all admit it is even more appealing to both old LOK funs and those who are about to be introduced to the series.

I hope the devs (who seem to be indeed watching and listening) see those models and make them playable.

RainaAudron
20th Oct 2013, 14:02
Thanks a lot NickTsiou :D Yeah I know, I wish I could change the skin too but that might a bit too difficult since it´s only a quick PS mockup.. My main point was to show that having the features we know from LOK games makes sense and looks good on the vampires while not making them look like an orc...

Though when mentioning Rahab and his intolerance to sunlight - kinda strange he is standing there in the SR1 intro when they cast Raziel in and you can clearly see sunlight and their shadows on the ground...

Vampmaster
20th Oct 2013, 15:17
The idea seems to be that their devolution sets in more quickly with each subsequent generation. Sharpened ears are a part of legit vampire evolution as it is possessed by Kain, Vorador and all the lieutenants. Wings and the Turelims increase in size is not.

That's plausable for the other clans, but the Turelim were a special case as the ears were a *part* of their devolution. They didn't end up just pointed, but fricking huge! If you look at the SR1 intro, they almost come up to the top of his head.


Thanks a lot NickTsiou :D Yeah I know, I wish I could change the skin too but that might a bit too difficult since it´s only a quick PS mockup.. My main point was to show that having the features we know from LOK games makes sense and looks good on the vampires while not making them look like an orc...

I figured the exact wing structure that Raziel had in SR1 would be impossible without changing the armature, so I PMed Eric to find out what would be possible without doing so. He told be any change whatsoever would have the same problem and that all current designs were final.

Denam_Pavel
20th Oct 2013, 15:31
That's plausable for the other clans, but the Turelim were a special case as the ears were a *part* of their devolution. They didn't end up just pointed, but fricking huge! If you look at the SR1 intro, they almost come up to the top of his head.

Like I said, so do Vorador's. Kain's ear seem to resemble this as well though most of it is hidden behind the horn like growths on his face.

LordNekronom
21st Oct 2013, 11:52
I figured the exact wing structure that Raziel had in SR1 would be impossible without changing the armature, so I PMed Eric to find out what would be possible without doing so. He told be any change whatsoever would have the same problem and that all current designs were final.

I hope that doesn't mean that they are keeping the 5 fingered hands, they did say they are working on implementing the devolved looks of the vampires http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7661 so they gotta put the hands in too, half baked job isn't an option here :D, LoK has some of the most die-hard fans in gaming :D

Vampmaster
21st Oct 2013, 12:10
I hope that doesn't mean that they are keeping the 5 fingered hands, they did say they are working on implementing the devolved looks of the vampires http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7661 so they gotta put the hands in too, half baked job isn't an option here :D, LoK has some of the most die-hard fans in gaming :D

I'm still waiting for him to clarify where he was only referring to the point where the Razielim wings are attached, but it sounded like he meant any change to any single vertex would require a whole new rig & animations, which would be ridiculous.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 15:31
I think that the current models are the final choice...and that they'll be a starting block for some sort of pupation process.

Vampmaster
21st Oct 2013, 16:18
I think that the current models are the final choice...and that they'll be a starting block for some sort of pupation process.

If you're referring to this statement, lots of games create several different concepts for a character, but only actually pick one as the final design:


Rather, this is pre-existing art from when we were concepting a number of different stages in the Tyrants’ devolution from fledgling to mature Vampire.

It doesn't necessarily mean that each vampire class will have models for multiple stages in their development. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool if they did that, but it doesn't seem likely at the moment.

TenebraeAeterna
21st Oct 2013, 17:32
If you're referring to this statement, lots of games create several different concepts for a character, but only actually pick one as the final design:

It doesn't necessarily mean that each vampire class will have models for multiple stages in their development. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool if they did that, but it doesn't seem likely at the moment.

It was stated that they had discussed a pupation process, it was never stated that they decided to go against it. I'm hoping that they have chosen to go for such a system and we do devolve throughout the course of the game or character progression.

TendrilSavant
21st Oct 2013, 21:02
I'm hoping that they have chosen to go for such a system and we do devolve throughout the course of the game or character progression.

Hopefully, if implemented, you'll get the choice of devolution. Preferably through a process of unlockable cosmetic items. I personally would like my vampires to look more human, pre-SR1 era vampire even at at higher level. Yet it'd be very interesting to see a variety of vampires on the field of battle, some still mostly human others grotesque shadows of humanity.

lordbane2110
24th Oct 2013, 17:23
They should gain more aspects of there parent thou, Rahabim (gills, webbed hands and feet, looking slimy), Dumahim (Greenish tint Leathery Skin, more lizardlike) Turelim (Bat Ears or bigger ears)

LordNekronom
25th Oct 2013, 19:58
They should gain more aspects of there parent thou, Rahabim (gills, webbed hands and feet, looking slimy), Dumahim (Greenish tint Leathery Skin, more lizardlike) Turelim (Bat Ears or bigger ears)

they did say they were trying to implement our devo feedback in the game, and these have been highly requested features, along with taloned hands and feet :D and fangs

AgentOrange91
6th Nov 2013, 01:54
you concerns are valid but you have to remember that all the vampires in SR1 went through changes over the 500 year time span of raziels' death. the dumahim vampires didnt get that form untill many years later and as for the "three fingers, two toe's" keep in mind kain himself didnt get those until he was hundred's of years older. in fact, in the first two blood omen game's he still had all 5 finger's on his hands and he was white as snow. those changes take time and evolution to take place in a vampires time span. hell im sure even voridor didnt look the way he does when he first turned. so the character models are actually on par with the current time span of the game and the only ones who suffered was the razielim clan because their clan leader, raziel, was killed for treason by kains orders and they were left to rot and evolve faster then the other clans :l

The_Hylden
6th Nov 2013, 02:44
We've covered this a few times, but fledglings even in SR1 have these features (Raziel notes them and their severe weakness to sunlight), which means that they should be passed on soon enough to their offspring. Once their leaders have evolved, their clans should develop similarly soon after. If it's anything like Raziel states in the manual it is for him and his brethren following Kain, then the clans follow within "a decade or so" of their sires, and this is a few centuries since Raziel was executed. We've seen the Lieutenants had these features. The evolution/devolution track these vampires are on is directly related to Kain's corruption and appears to work differently than Kain, or Vorador's ascension to these features.

Beyond the claws and feat, every vampire ever shown has pointy ears and long enough fangs to be noticed, so those, at the very least, should reflect here. The Turelim are already showing signs of devolution in their face, also, so they should definitely have the features of the pinnacle of their sire's evolution in the claws and toes. With the Razielim so devolved, they most certainly should have them also.

A side note, the developers are going off of the premise, hinted at in unused dialogue from the EG in SR1, that the time frame of Raziel's demise to his resurrection is closer to a millennium, so the 500 years figure is no more.

soulrelic616
6th Nov 2013, 13:37
Just for the record, all fledgling vampires should at least have pointy ears... Kain had them in Blood Omen 1:

lordbane2110
7th Nov 2013, 10:02
He did?, it's the little details i tend to miss

Monkeythumbz
7th Nov 2013, 23:27
Please keep the discussion going -- and the thread bumped -- so the devs will see it. They are supposedly watching all of us closely, listening to our concerns, so let's make ourselves heard!

Just to let you know, I've read every single post in this thread and we're actively discussing the creation of skins that better reflect fan feedback. No timeline's in place just at the moment, but it's something we're very keen to do ASAP, however long that is.

Sluagh
9th Nov 2013, 00:03
Just a thought, I think it would be cool if the Razielim looked quite angelic, a bit Ancientish, but maybe with some big flaw in their appearance. That would be suitably mocking. Maybe they all scarred themself after Raziel entered the Abyssal diving gala? Also:

- I agree on Turelim. More V shaped. Ears...hm...your ears get bigger as you get older anyway, so can cope with smaller ones although I know there's an argument for devolution (like Scotland really).
- 3 fingers it has to be.
- Yeah I quite like the Dumahim as they are really.
- The human models are ace. Although something a bit more gypsy in one of them would be cool? If anyone was gonna describe that desolate waste after the vampires started wrecking the place it would have been them. Do you remember that frozen cave bit they were living in during BO1? Maybe that could be an upgrade or something.

Tahazzar
9th Nov 2013, 19:01
Just the very existence of a next part into the LOK games pleases me greatly. I'm especially happy that this will most likely be released unlike the other sadly numerous project attempts.


I'll express my ideas in this post although I'm aware that some of these are very hard to change at this point...
I'll be image leeching and I didn't get the "thumb"-tag to work properly (hope those aren't huge problems).
I'm not a native speaker and I was too lazy too proof-read this post


GENERAL GAME MECHANICS"Blood is life" as described in BO1. This should be obvious. I would be willing to take certain elements from the "World of Darkness" games (like vampires the masquerade). In here, the blood is very important to health, but not exactly the same. By this logic, the vampires regenerative power (as they're fledglings here it can have just a small effect - no half-immortality) would be more stronger the more blood they have. Taking damage makes you lose blood, but more health still. The blood is drained over time. Having no blood, would result in a highly weakened state or in torpor of some period. The "World of Darkness" offers also the idea of vampires casting/performing spell like abilities that they pay by blood. This could be interpreted as such that for example, when a Melchahim uses his "burrow"-ability it would drain blood initially or make him lose blood faster while performing it.

Fatigue to me personally is almost crucially in melee fighting games. So many things can be differentiated from each other and it also balances the more powerful attacks/actions (such as swimming of Rahabim? or flying of Razielim) while increasing decision making and skill. This should be implemented correctly. The best as of yet I can remember if "Demons Souls"/"Dark Souls." Fatigue automatically makes sense for sprinting ie. making short burst of speed while running. Fatigue would also pronounce the differences between classes and races as vampires compared to humans would have many times more fatigue. I'll be touching the idea of fatigue in my vampire descriptions too.


VAMPIRES

TURELIMThe Turelim from SR1 are tall beasts with wide shoulders, thin abdomen, and long legs. They're dynamic, fast, immensely powerful and like to run on all fours. The werewolves from "Elder Scrolls: Skyrim" reminded me greatly of the Turelim. They're physic and somewhat hard-to-aim, powerful arcing sweeping attacks and both of they're running animation.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr167/mappster71/morlok041.jpg

The Turelim posses large ears which some state have a connection with their telekinetic attacks. The important factor to me in them is that they are greatly hurt by sounds of certain volume and/or resonation. They also sport a rabbit like feet which I would imagine have very powerful thrust as to enable them to cover a great distance just by a jump. They appear to be standing somewhat on they're toes giving the sense that they're movement is almost "spring" like. They have a long chin that is especially pronounced in Turel himself making it seem that if a Turelim gets it fangs on you, it would be especially hard to get free of it.

The movement and attack of the Turelim would drain the most fatigue, but however the Turelim should have the most fatigue and it should also restore much more quickly than with other vampires.

The lore states pretty clearly that the Turelim are the most powerful of the vampire clans. Obviously from balance reasons this is not good. If I were to implement them (even as fledglings), I would make them pretty similar to the werewolves in skyrim. They would be lightly armored if having any armor at all as not to "drag them down". They're playing style would be dynamic in the sense that they're very fast and strong, (even stride would be so fast that it would be pretty hard to keep the correct path - like the werewolves in skyrim - can't really stress enough the resemblance), but not that durable since as fledlings they're (d)evolution hasn't increased they're muscle mass to levels it is in SR1 counterparts. This all to me points to a certain type of glass cannon melee unit, which would come out of nowhere and tear apart / send enemy units flying.

The giant ears could provide an ability for localize the enemy. For example, the "Tenchu Z" had the ninja ability in which by pressing their ear to the ground the ninja/you could see a simplified map where you could see enemy dots that represented the enemy location and "steps" (as long as they were moving - you couldn't see them if they were moving). As fledglings, I wouldn't really even expect to see a telekinetic ability (although I hear there is an one that can be performed at close range). Anyway, compared to Kain for example, the Turelim telekinetics are rather rough and more "force" related in that it's not nearly as sophisticated or accurate. It was just a force ball they shot by... shouting/barking?

The current proposed Turelim I see is similar to an ogre or perhaps to the warcraftian Orc and it's a melee tank unit. I didn't recognize them at all. It saddens me a bit since I know it would be hard to change they're class role. If anything you should really just give the fans of the franchise a bone by adding the models with the lengthy ears to make them at least recognizable.


DUMAHIMhttp://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=149#p604

The last post about Dumahim gives an especially interesting inside into they're clan. I remember seeing the Dumah statue with the staff and also recall the Dumahim referenced multiple times as warrirors [I](also the 'ronin' code name somewhat describes this). To me, this gives the idea of Dumahim being the tank with heavy armor and maybe with some kind of a weapon (perhaps a halberd or a predator-like wrist blade seems very appropriate [from movies]? - I know that this goes againts your idea of vampires themselves "being the weapon"). This is supported by SR1 in that, we see all of them wearing armors and having posture that is leaning forwards and grounded (that is, they seem like they could be hardest of the vampires to trip). Hence, I would have them the slowest movement also. The armors of dumahim would be similar to those seeing in the fledglings of SR1 and most importantly in Dumah himself. I could also see something similar to the mask in the current Nosgoth page header (is. the design is something I could see on them + the blue-green tint/color reminds me a lot of the Dumah's armor if I recall in correctly).

The Turelim would have the most health and the best regeneration rate, but the Dumahims' skin/armor make them the most resilient (take the least damage) and hence the Dumahim would be the most enduring of all the vampire "classes".

They could have a tongue attack (obviously not as lengthy as in SR1) that would enable to feed little bit of distance and enable them to track the "licked" (:P) target (scent tracking). This tongue would be used in feeding as in SR1.

The differences between Turelim and Dumahim would be similar to that of D&D classes Barbarian and Fighter. The barbarian has more health, moves faster and has the "Enrage"-skill which makes them also the strongest. The warrior is slower, but has better defences and is more skilled in weapons.

The curren proposed Dumahim (from what I see) are rogue like hit-and-run type unit with speed and agility. Again like with Turelim, I have a hard time seeing them in this role, but at least it's somewhat supported by the fledling (green skinned) dumahim in SR1. I like the warpaint though. If I would have had to choose a "rogue" like speedy class for Nosgoth, I would chosen the Zephonim in an instant. Most of the rogue like things should IMO been reserved for the Zephonim.

RAZIELIMThis is wholly speculative so you have more artistic license here. The only thing required/expected is the wings which you provided. The thing that bugs most it seems is why they are so devolved. The "lost leader" theory is somewhat solid. I don't really like the idea of they being the "eldest" of clans and hence the most devolved. To me, this "devolution" is shown semi-logically in the vampires stance that would kinda describe they're sanity and "nobility."

Turelim - They're athletic and tall with a straight stance (at least when not mobile)
Dumahim - Somewhat leaning forwards, but still very "grounded" and humanoid.
Rahabim - They're have problems with walking on ground - Moving slowly and sluggishy
Zephonim - Insectoid - ie. crawling.,
Melchahim - Falling apart, shambling, rotting.

By this logic I would have the Razielim stance be very upward, almost arrogant looking, like an eagle and perhaps have a slight resemble to the ancient vampires (maybe more to the hylden). A dark bat angel? The current crouching trashy looking Razielim are a bit of a... maybe disappointment personally? I don't know. :/

====

I'll touch a bit the other Vampires even though I have no problem with them being included later on.

RAHABIMSome "keywords": Leech, serpent, cobra, piranha, shark

I would have them be sleek, slithering, slick creatures. Most likely with tattoos and without any upperbody armor. They would perhaps be the slowest of all vampires on ground. They would be resistant (not immune) to water as to they could linger in there for a short period of a time (unlike other would take heavy amount of damage from being in contact with water). The ranged spit attack is obvious. Although the "melee-vs-ranged" idea is appropriate I would derivate from it with one class from both sides. In case of the vampires, the Rahabim could be the most ranged of all the vampires. Draining attack was mentioned by others and seems like it could be cool.

Rahabim are able to do one jump of great hight (and/or length -- also perhaps only from water?). This however would drain most of their stamina. The Rahabim would at average have the slowest fatigue restoration rate.

http://snorkeldragon.com/weewiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=rahabim.jpg

Do note the hazardously located numerous teeth (I like them).


ZEPHONIMWall crawling and web attacks/traps seem likely. This IS the rogue class you want instead of Dumahim. It also included the perfect possibility to have females vampires (at least for first when either sex is not a possibility for each class).

http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226151634/legacyofkain/images/8/80/SR1-Enemy-UnusedVampireFemaleA.jpghttp://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226151635/legacyofkain/images/thumb/1/12/SR1-Enemy-UnusedVampireFemaleB.jpg/621px-SR1-Enemy-UnusedVampireFemaleB.jpg
Seriously, this is *perfect* for your "rogue class" purposes. The dislocating jaw (that also can be seen in Zephon himself) is also very interesting.

From Zephonim and Zephon himself we can deduce *perfect* ceiling crawling (akin to that of alien in "Alien vs predator"-games or whatever) and possibility for a long claw with which they could make one good aimed strong attack that could penetrate most defenses. Various slashing attack sounds good, mostly piercing still perhaps though. Hmmm... a "grappling attack" to trap an unit on place? Slowly paralyzing poison also seems fun.

In general, the Zephonim could perform a lot of "Ninja"-like actions.

One thing that comes to mind from their spider-like appearance could be a more developed sight. For example, by holding a certain button you could see what is behind yourself without turning(?). Seems rather unnecessary though :S


MELCHIAHIMSomeone proposed "body-snatching" idea which seems like a very good idea. I always though of the Melchiahim as "fleshcrafters" as seen in Melchiah himself. That is, they could manipulate them body into different forms. However this would take time in that in that it can't be done mid-combat. This way the Melchiahim could be perhaps be the most adaptive class of the vampires. Melchiah himself for example gives a possibility for a "battle form" that when you have consumed especially extra amount of "blood" you could morph your flesh into this "tank form" for a period of time (depending how much extra blood you have). This could be rather caterpillar like (which I would deem very original and interesting) as Melchiah had these multiple fingers and this strange larva like "tail". Come to think of it, many of the other classes could have one of the "super" modes as well. For example, the Zephonim could grow extra claw/legs and run extremely fast (especially on ceilings) and have these high range attacks.

The rotting thing IMO can be described with fatigue in that they would be the most "blood" (in apostrophes since they consume a lot of other stuff as well when feeding) dependent. This would mean that while having "high amount" of blood they could regenerate stamina maybe even slightly faster than the Turelim, but however when in low stamina they're stamina regeneration would be very stifled. In "mid blood"-levels they're regeneration could average to slightly lower than with other Vampire classes.

I also saw the "horde" idea that I'm not that fond of. I played around with the idea of being able to "splitting oneself into two", but I don't actually see how that could be implemented in such a way it would be useful.

The burrowing idea is expected and I would extend it show that they could also "hide in" walls as they're "fleshcrafters" + that "spectral phasing" thing. As the Melchiahim are the closest to spectral realm and "on the verge of death" they could also have this slight potential to "survive death". Say 10% to 25% chance to gain small amount of life and "resurrect" after being "killed".

The Melchiahim would disgustingly smack and gnaw on their victims while they feed.

============

VAMPIRE WEAKNESSES (& strenghts againts those weaknesses)The SR1 vampires are lowed for their differences (between themselves) and uniques compared to normal vampires. One of the (small) defining things are their weakness to different things. However, this might be something that is not that intuitive to the "new players" (those who aren't familiar with the LOK world).

Rahabim - Are resilent to water, but especially weak to (sun) light.
Turelim - Are very weak to specific sounds.
Dumahim - This is a hard one. Just for balance reasons one could argue they're skin is so dry that could be set on fire more easily that the other vampires.
zephon - Weak to sound and weak to... blunt or piercing attacks?
Melchiahim - Especially easily impaled (piercing attacks versus rotting flesh). Maybe more resistant againts blunt attacks.
razielim - Go figure. Light?

===========

HUMANS

"DEFENDER PALADIN"As with Rahabim being the strange one-off ranged unit in Vampire classes, so should Humans have a single melee unit. This could be remiscent of the Sarafan from defiance/SR2 and the Sarafan from BO2. I think this is something that fits very well with the lore + it seems players would like it (since it's the remnant of the "Paladins" from the other games). Especially B02 Sarafans gives sense what this class could be like. It could perhaps be heavily armored which in contrast to say, Dumahim, makes it a bit slow and clumsy. It would have a "neck protection" as seen in B02 to make them especially feed on.

As humas have so much less fatigue, the attacks made by this class should well coordinated to make it match any of the vampire classes in melee. Mostly its purpose would be defend the other ranged classes of the Humans - not the actually encage in melee unless the humans have the upper hand. This class could execure one feriocious attack (as seen in BO2 + the attack could start with a charge run) with series of multitude attacks, but this however should be well timed since it drains they're fatigue so well that they might even be unable to move for a while after performing this attack.

This defender class could be equipment with B02 axe-like weapon, two-handed sword, spear and/or a Tower Shield. It could actually even carry many of these. Spear or something similar could be good as it would still keep some good distance between the vampires. Especially many of them could corner one vampire very badly.


IN GENERAL (humans)Here you can get away with a lot. The current bunch of humans looks believable and something that the people in Nosgoth could be clad in. Two potential things come to mind.

1. "Vampire worshippers" -> Blood Magic. This is something that could be already covered by the "alchemist" class, so Idk.
2. Glyph magic/energy. Glyph magic was present in SR1 and it could play well into the vampire's weaknesess (different spells agains different classses). Glyph energy from BO2 offers a immense amount of imaginative weaponry or tech for the Humans. One that I would like could be a "force shield" (the green barriers from BO2) that would provide a small period of protection or distraction/blockade againts the vampires. Also, the defender class could be even more defensive if it carried a "giant glyph energy battery" that could provide the said force shield (this also would pronounce the fact that they're slow moving).

BTW, humans should automatically regenerate blood (contrast to vampires automatically losing it) and it does effect their performance (fatigue) as with the vampires. Unless a "blood mage"-class is implemented, the "blood meter" on humans is mostly devoid of real purpose, but I don't mind that at all.

ZeroFernir
11th Nov 2013, 02:13
Just for the record, all fledgling vampires should at least have pointy ears... Kain had them in Blood Omen 1:



Kain has never been a fledgling. He was born full-grown, as we can see by his heavy resistances to rain and sun.

soulrelic616
13th Nov 2013, 09:12
Kain has never been a fledgling. He was born full-grown, as we can see by his heavy resistances to rain and sun.

Fledgling as in young, not as in the "fledgling vampires" you find in SR1 - I quote Raziel's dialogue from SR2:

"So this was the tomb of the beloved King William the Just – beatified here as the martyr and catalyst of Moebius’s crusade.
I was reminded of Kain’s journey as a fledgling vampire "

EDIT: I do agree that Kain is unique as a Vampire though....

The_Hylden
13th Nov 2013, 23:57
Yes, that he was unnaturally strong doesn't nullify that his newness as a vampire = fledgling.

I also want to point out, as I keep meaning to but forget, that we don't know that the weakness to such a burst-into-flames way was universal to vampires not of Kain's lineage. We have no empirical evidence either way for this, but I tend to think that Kain's vampires, while more resilient in other ways than vampires prior to his necro versions, suffered more in ways like this. We don't see any of Vorador's, or other vampires, out in the sun during any of the prior games, except for their corpses in SR2. SR2's were staked, some dismembered, but they weren't burned by the sun. This could be that none of them were fledglings, or even that the fact they were already dead made the difference. Were none staked during the day and only at night? Unknown.

I tend to think of the vampires created by Kain suffering more in sunlight, and perhaps via other ways like Melchiah and his clan's inability to maintain their flesh's immortality, due to the method Kain and they sire them by. It wasn't the natural way, and probably for good reason. Using portions of the soul, getting weaker each time if not possibly taking interval breaks, seems to produce a generational down step in quality. The clan vampires might be considered second generation quality, which might be why they have issues like this. The sun in SR1 is even very much diffused by the smokestacks, ans still younger vampires of his burn up within it. I can't imagine vampires made prior to this, or even the Lieutenants, would have suffered that badly from the sun. Weakness, discomfort, maybe feeling the extra heat on their skin, sure. That much seems more likely to me.

We can't know if Kain meant simply from his perspective alone in BO1, though it probably only was, given he wouldn't know beyond his own experience at this point, but he does also note that vampires suffer during the day, and the light offers no comfort. However, obviously he doesn't exclaim that young vampires usually burst into flames upon contact with the sun.

Reidbynature
14th Nov 2013, 00:21
I wonder if maybe the vampires from Kain's empire started off as merely susceptible to the sun in that it made them weaker and that those vampires in SR1 that burst into flames (including Rahab) were more a sign of regression than simply just an inability to overcome their weakness to the sun?

CyberGhost-323
14th Nov 2013, 07:58
Dear Monkeythumbz,

I hope all is well.
First off, I'd like congratulate you for the dedication and time you are putting in this project.

So here goes my first post :)

Regarding this thread of yours about character skins;

- Would it be a good idea to create a standard Clan/Class uniform for each character which could be changed by another few variant skins that'd represent the character's level?

- Each Skin that represents a certain level of the character you'd have it's unique armour and weapon upgrades as well as hues from which to customize a character that'd make it stand out from the rest.
For example. Turelim's Clan colour is green. Would it be a good idea to provide certain shades of greens available for the characters representing the Turelim Clan with the additional of Bronze, silver, gold lining of the armour/cloth as a reference of the character's level as well?

Respect,
CyberGhost-323

P.S. Would it be a good idea if each Vampire Clan would have access to their Clan territory which would serve as a safe heaven for the Clan's Vampire?

This could be utilised as a training ground for the Vampire player to hone their skills to higher standards and to make weapon/armour/skill upgrades. The inclusion of minor or side quests could be included within the territory which would reward the player of certain unique items and Clan background history as well.

This could be applied to all the Clan Vampires with the exception of the Razielim since their territory was ruined by the other Clan vampires due to the absence of Raziel. Instead they could use Turelim's territory since they are forced to serve them lest they face extinction. Mountain caverns from Dark Eden or the surrounding forests could also be utilised as an alternative for their base of operation which'd only be reached by winged creatures and build a certain connection with bats due to the Razielim's physical build and nature.

As for the human's, the could either benefit from a single fortified city where all classes meet or as above, each class gets their own safe heaven just as the Vampires would.

Makes sense?

lordbane2110
14th Nov 2013, 10:38
While I like the idea of clan territories, it's does seem to be a bit like an MMO, which is what they said nosgoth wasn't going to be, although i would be in favor of the clan territory idea being used as a background in the character / class customiser screen, that would be cool

Monkeythumbz
14th Nov 2013, 11:31
While I like the idea of clan territories, it's does seem to be a bit like an MMO
^This.

It's a terrific idea, but please remember that Nosgoth is first and foremost a PvP multiplayer game.

Vampmaster
14th Nov 2013, 14:26
Maybe there could be an equipable ability that gives you a home-ground advantage? Then if you'd rather play as a different clan, you'd need to pick a different ability otherwise you'd be wasting the slot.

CyberGhost-323
14th Nov 2013, 22:02
Dear Monkeythumbz,

I apologize for taking so long to reply but it seems that there was some sort of Log In trouble with my account.
I thought I was banned as the error stated as a joke but its not this case.
I also apologize for not explaining myself clearly earlier regarding the Clan territory idea. So here goes:

What I wanted to say was basically that each Vampire Clan territory could be used as an animate Load-Out arena instead of the usual monotonous Load-Out screen. This could be used as the base of operation for the respective Clan where the player decides where to "strike" next I.E. In which arena will the next match take place etc. Nothing will effect the Game's planing and style. It can still remain as an MMO but in order to spice things up, I think it'd it be a good idea to include a few secondary tasks with perhaps a few minor AI enemies to make the player feel as an individual in the game rather than an ordinary Vampire Shock Troop which would die and re-spawn for another match again.

Now don't get me wrong on this. I like how the game's being developed so far and my aim is solely in landing a generous helping hand to this project.

Much Respect,
CG-323

P.S. Something similar I remember playing way back was Guild Wars which had some sort of a base for each level where players chose with whom to team up as well as various market stalls for weapons, armour and potions etc.

Does this make any sense to be applied for Nosgoth???

Reidbynature
14th Nov 2013, 23:22
Nosgoth is not an MMO and isn't really structured as such to make those ideas viable. I think the closest you may get is a 'hub area' for players to hang out and chat when not in matches. I wouldn't go looking for quests or anything like that. It's not going to happen.

The_Hylden
15th Nov 2013, 00:15
CyberGhost-323, please do not double post with "P.S" posts. Use the Edit Post button to edit your initial post, instead.

Thanks.

CyberGhost-323
15th Nov 2013, 05:19
Gratitude The_Hylden. I'll do as instructed.

CyberGhost-323
15th Nov 2013, 05:23
Thanks for the info Reidbynature,

The hub area idea is a good one as well. Apart from this idea I posted earlier, what do you think about the one I had regarding level skins?

Paradoks_db
15th Nov 2013, 15:23
Am I the only one bothered by Dumahim's lack of hair? I think that it should be reserved for Melchiahim as it was always Melchiah's feature both as a Sarafan and a vampire. It was also the case for the sorceresses in SR2.

Vampmaster
15th Nov 2013, 15:50
Dumahim having a different haircut from their clan leader isn't really that different from them different clothes than him. It's not that implausible that some of them might choose to shave their heads.

That reminds me, some head variants might be nice at some point. No big deal if it's not possible, though.

Paradoks_db
15th Nov 2013, 15:58
I don't mind some of them being bald. It's just that all that we have seen so far are. And that can cause some confusion. Perhaps something fitting with Dumahim's SR1 game file codename could be used.

ZeroFernir
15th Nov 2013, 15:58
Dumahim having a different haircut from their clan leader isn't really that different from them different clothes than him. It's not that implausible that some of them might choose to shave their heads.

That reminds me, some head variants might be nice at some point. No big deal if it's not possible, though.

Yeah, because shaved head is strange.

Vampmaster
15th Nov 2013, 16:12
I don't mind some of them being bald. It's just that all that we have seen so far are. And that can cause some confusion. Perhaps something fitting with Dumahim's SR1 game file codename could be used.

Well like I was trying to say, it's because they all have the same head at the moment. I don't know how literally the Ronin codename was supposed to be taken in terms of their appearance, but if there are traditional samurai haircuts, I don't see any reason those couldn't be included.

Assuming of course that SE/Psyonix decide it's feasible to add head variants at some point.

Paradoks_db
15th Nov 2013, 16:25
I don't know how literally the Ronin codename was supposed to be taken in terms of their appearance, but if there are traditional samurai haircuts, I don't see any reason those couldn't be included.
I'm not sure about Dumahim, but it was definitely the case for Dumah himself (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2#p3).

Vampmaster
15th Nov 2013, 16:45
I know that, I just didn't know to what extent. It could have been "loosely based" or "exactly like". "Conglomeration" also suggests a bit of mix and match going on.

The_Hylden
16th Nov 2013, 01:24
I don't think in this case their hair style has to be the same as the clan leaders. Each being should have their own hair. The Turelim don't have the hair style of Turel, and have a little pony tail only in the back. Perfectly fine. I am hoping there are different heads and hair style options for skins, so they all don't wind up looking the same.

Paradoks_db
16th Nov 2013, 01:59
Again, I'm not saying that the hair style needs to be the same. Just that it would be nice if it was somehow modelled after it, kept in similar style based on the same influences.
The only exception that I would like to see would be Melchiahim, just to keep continuity with previous games.

Xavine
16th Nov 2013, 23:23
For the Razielim, because they received the greatest "gift" they evolved more. This was the key point in Soul Reaver. Raziel evolved faster than Kain, and so he was exiled/executed. Also, their wings look nothing like Raziel, because Raziel's wings were torn off by Kain, and never regrew.

Vampmaster
16th Nov 2013, 23:54
Raziel wasn't that far ahead of the others in his evolution and his clan inheriting his broken wings would be like a human inheriting scars from his/her parents. It's an injury, not an inheritable trait.

Unless you want to take into consideration what Amy said about the abyss altering the course of Raziel's evolution. It would at least be debatable that his clan would follow the new course.

This isn't the quote I was thinking of, but it's close:
http://nosgoth.yuku.com/topic/4317/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig

Monkeythumbz
18th Nov 2013, 16:13
Also, their wings look nothing like Raziel, because Raziel's wings were torn off by Kain, and never regrew.

That's not really what we were thinking. There is isn't a one-to-one correlation between the devolved traits displayed by Clan members and those of their Lieutenant-patriarchs.

For example, the Rahabim have legs, whereas Rahab has a large tail instead. The Melcahim and Turelim are bipedal, but Melciah and Turel (when we see him in Defiance) are quadrupeds.

We therefore think that while the Razielim would have wings, they wouldn't necessarily be positioned exactly the same as Raziel's.

Vampmaster
18th Nov 2013, 17:02
That's not really what we were thinking. There is isn't a one-to-one correlation between the devolved traits displayed by Clan members and those of their Lieutenant-patriarchs.

For example, the Rahabim have legs, whereas Rahab has a large tail instead. The Melcahim and Turelim are bipedal, but Melciah and Turel (when we see him in Defiance) are quadrupeds.

We therefore think that while the Razielim would have wings, they wouldn't necessarily be positioned exactly the same as Raziel's.

That's why I tried to ask Eric about having a variant (or a couple of them) that were at least a bit closer to Raziel's even if they can't be exactly like his.

I wanted to suggest lengthening/shortening parts of the concept art for pre-abyss Raziel to closer fit with the rig used in Nosgoth, but he seemed to think I was suggesting the other way around, which is not the case as I'm fully aware that would require the animations to be remade. When I asked him, he implied that any variant that hasn't already been made would need a full new set of anims.

That would mean, for example that each of the five versions of the Turelim from the concept art had a separate copy of each of their animations even though their basic structure was the same. I can't see how that would be the case either because I've seen plenty of examples online of several skins sharing the same anim set.

ZeroFernir
20th Nov 2013, 03:59
That's not really what we were thinking. There is isn't a one-to-one correlation between the devolved traits displayed by Clan members and those of their Lieutenant-patriarchs.

For example, the Rahabim have legs, whereas Rahab has a large tail instead. The Melcahim and Turelim are bipedal, but Melciah and Turel (when we see him in Defiance) are quadrupeds.

We therefore think that while the Razielim would have wings, they wouldn't necessarily be positioned exactly the same as Raziel's.

Will we see Lietenant's skins for the vampires? that would solve all our problems.

Monkeythumbz
20th Nov 2013, 15:07
Will we see Lieutenant's skins for the vampires? that would solve all our problems.

If we add in the Lieutenants, it won't just be as skins - I don't think it'd make very much sense just doing that, IMHO. Also, bear in mind that during the time frame in which Nosgoth is set, the Lieutenants would have already changed in appearance from how they look in the opening cut-scene to Soul Reaver, as this game is set around +/- 400 years after that.

ZeroFernir
20th Nov 2013, 21:38
If we add in the Lieutenants, it won't just be as skins - I don't think it'd make very much sense just doing that, IMHO. Also, bear in mind that during the time frame in which Nosgoth is set, the Lieutenants would have already changed in appearance from how they look in the opening cut-scene to Soul Reaver, as this game is set around +/- 400 years after that.

Yeah, but I think that a skin making our vamps look like SR1 Lieutenants would be REAAALLY awesome. I think I could pay like 100 dollars for a set of them (making it worth a full console game).

lordbane2110
21st Nov 2013, 10:41
That'de only work though if all the vampire classes were male, plus that'de also be very confusing seeing many copies of Dumah, Raziel and Turel all on the screen at once, might be cool on a fun server though

would like one of the human classes to gain a skin that makes them look like mobius then too, cause mobius was an awesome villian

Monkeythumbz
21st Nov 2013, 13:29
I think these are great ideas for the future, but right now we need to demonstrate our desire to keep the lore intact and coherent.

Varulven
21st Nov 2013, 13:50
Hi @ all *waves* :D

I think the designs are really good. There are just small things that bother me a lil bit:
As someone said: The ears of the Tyrants (Turelim). They should be bigger.
Than the Razielim: Their father was the firstborn an he got the most of Kains power, so his 'children' shouldn't be THAT devolved.
I have to confess I like the dumahim the most.... I don't know why... I like them^^

Greez, Varulven

PS: English is not my native language. Sorry if I misspelled something.

kain67raz34
21st Nov 2013, 23:42
well apparently the razielim were abused and just straight brutalized by the younger clans so much it changed them and the torture forced their devolution.

soulrelic616
22nd Nov 2013, 12:26
(test post) This is such an interesting thread! :)

kain67raz34
22nd Nov 2013, 23:09
I think these are great ideas for the future, but right now we need to demonstrate our desire to keep the lore intact and coherent.

if your interested in keeping to the lore why do the vampires look just like humans with five fingers and human ears.


I think these are great ideas for the future, but right now we need to demonstrate our desire to keep the lore intact and coherent.

and where are the rahabim and zephonim and the melchiahim


If we add in the Lieutenants, it won't just be as skins - I don't think it'd make very much sense just doing that, IMHO. Also, bear in mind that during the time frame in which Nosgoth is set, the Lieutenants would have already changed in appearance from how they look in the opening cut-scene to Soul Reaver, as this game is set around +/- 400 years after that.

okay that's fair but if the lieutenants are so changed why do their offspring look like humans.

Monkeythumbz
25th Nov 2013, 18:29
if your interested in keeping to the lore why do the vampires look just like humans with five fingers and human ears.

We know from Blood Omen 1 and Blood Omen 2 that fledgeling Vampires have human characteristics (e.g. five fingers) and only elder Vampires develop cloven claws and feet as they gradually undergo a process of metamorphosis that makes them look more akin to the Ancients.

The Vampires you've seen in Nosgoth so far are obviously fledgelings, not newly raised but certainly not having gone through as many stages of pupation and mutation as other members of their Clans... but that's not to say we don't have plans for adult Vampires too.


and where are the rahabim and zephonim and the melchiahim
Please give us some time, we've only just got started - we're not even out of the Alpha phase of development, yet!


okay that's fair but if the lieutenants are so changed why do their offspring look like humans.
The Lieutenants were the first Vampires in Kain's Empire to be raised, so naturally their evolution is more advanced then their progeny.

Tube_Reaver
25th Nov 2013, 19:22
We know from Blood Omen 1 and Blood Omen 2 that fledgeling Vampires have human characteristics (e.g. five fingers) and only elder Vampires develop cloven claws and feet as they gradually undergo a process of metamorphosis that makes them look more akin to the Ancients.

The Vampires you've seen in Nosgoth so far are obviously fledgelings, not newly raised but certainly not having gone through as many stages of pupation and mutation as other members of their Clans... but that's not to say we don't have plans for adult Vampires too.

Would just like to confirm what Monkeythumbz is saying with some images from BO2, as you can see both Kain and Umah have 5 digits per hand.

The cloven claws come later with mutation of Kain's vampire lineage, if I am recalling correctly, but don't quote me on this.

Personally I prefer the 5 digits on Kain to the cloven claws (although their design is unique and awesome too) but the finger nails of doom were just epic in BO2, much more visceral !









Edit: I would like to add to the discussion of the thread.

I believe that the current designs of the vampire classes are actually very interesting, and you get a "feel" of what the class does and how it plays just with a glance, which is very important in gaming now a days, and many companies are actually trying to do that.

For instance, in game X, the big bulky characters are usually the tanky guys who absorb a lot of damage and have a lot of health, but are usually slow moving with slow hard hits.

This is the vibe I get from a glance at Tyrant class, which is exactly what the class is.

As for them not looking like exact copies of their respective Lieutenants, well first of all, that would just be VERY un-interesting in terms of what the art/design team could come up with.

Another interesting thing to take into account is the following:

Kain and his Lieutenants look nothing alike, each Lieutenant looks as he did in his human form, with a vampiric twist (SR1 intro)
Umah looks nothing like Vorador (iirc she was sired by him)

The clan members will acquire the same mutations as their respective Lieutenants and not necessarily have said mutations look the same, but the function would remain the same or similar.

Vampmaster
25th Nov 2013, 23:10
The Vampires you've seen in Nosgoth so far are obviously fledgelings, not newly raised but certainly not having gone through as many stages of pupation and mutation as other members of their Clans...

Well, even fledglings have pointy ears and fangs if you look at Umah, Magnus and the others from BO2.


That's not to say we don't have plans for adult Vampires too.

Does that mean there won't be any changes to the existing models and only the adults ones will have the more recognisable features? What sort of timeframe do you think would apply to the vampires aging? Have the designers mentioned how old the fledglings we've seen are or how old the adult ones are planned to be? I always thought the fledgling vampires in SR1 were about 100-200 and the adult ones were about 500-1000.

It's hard to tell, because the devolution appears to be accellerating (the SR1 manual referred to some of them as fledglings even though they all had cloven hands/feet). Maybe the amount of devolution would be something like the average of their own age and the age of their lieutenant or maybe the factors effecting their evolution and devolution are happening at two seperate rates.


Please give us some time, we've only just got started - we're not even out of the Alpha phase of development, yet!

What do you think of the ideas people have been giving for the Rahabim's abilities? Do you think there's any better chance of seeing them than before?

Monkeythumbz
26th Nov 2013, 12:16
Well, even fledglings have pointy ears and fangs if you look at Umah, Magnus and the others from BO2.
Kain's the only Vampire we see from the moment he's raised, and even Mortanius said he was a special case.


Does that mean there won't be any changes to the existing models and only the adults ones will have the more recognisable features? What sort of timeframe do you think would apply to the vampires aging? Have the designers mentioned how old the fledglings we've seen are or how old the adult ones are planned to be? I always thought the fledgling vampires in SR1 were about 100-200 and the adult ones were about 500-1000.
All I can say right now is wait and see - this is an instance in which we'd prefer to show rather tan tell, but we're still a little way from having anything concrete to share right now as it's very much a work in (active) progress.


It's hard to tell, because the devolution appears to be accelerating (the SR1 manual referred to some of them as fledglings even though they all had cloven hands/feet). Maybe the amount of devolution would be something like the average of their own age and the age of their lieutenant or maybe the factors effecting their evolution and devolution are happening at two seperate rates.
Yes, Vampire evolution and the effects of Nupraptors curse do work at different rates - the former on an individual basis, the latter is more general, a bit like background radiation in reverse.


What do you think of the ideas people have been giving for the Rahabim's abilities? Do you think there's any better chance of seeing them than before?
There's always a chance! But that's so far of right now and we're focusing on all the content we currently have in the pipe just at the moment.