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shaahinkaaveh
17th Aug 2006, 13:19
This is a new interview with Ian Livingston (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18961).

In this interview Mr. Livingston has completely ignored unsatisfied old fans, and admired and appreciated Legend on behalf of them. I thought Mr. Goran Agar once told me they're listening to their fans? :scratch:

shaahinkaaveh
17th Aug 2006, 14:20
This is courtesy of Official Playstation Magazine. (September issue)

OPM: Now that Tomb Raider Legend has finally hit retail, are you happy with the reaction?

CD: We're very happy with the fan reaction. It's ultimately how we judge the quality of our games. Did the people we make it for appreciate it? So that they've been as happy as they have (been) has been really rewarding,

OPM: Why do you think this game has been so well received? What did you do that made people love Lara again?

CD: I think it's just that, from day one, we set out to be true to Lara and to create an experience that put her back where she excels - in the tombs. Of course, getting off the grid system of the past six Tomb Raiders was very important as well. The physics gave us room to do some new things with level design. There were a lot of things we concentrated on, but from day one, it was our intention to stay true to the first two games in the franchise and bring Tomb Raider up to modern game-play standards.

OPM: Is there any particular level of section of the game you're most proud of?

CD: The very first physics-based puzzle that takes place in the heart of the first tomb. It uses this relatively new game system to re-create the classic Tomb Raider.

OPM: Is there anything in the game our readers may have missed on their first playthroughs?

CD: Most of them probably didn't get all the rewards and their associated unlockables. There are some helpful gun upgrades and pretty cool outfits if you do - and they're fun to find. Some of the associated puzzles are the harder ones in the game.

OPM: Legend feels a tad short compared to earlier games in the series. Is there anything you hoped to add to Legend but couldn't due to time constraints?

CD: The length of the game is always a challenge, given the art fidelity we go for. That much custom content for every corner of the game, let alone every level, means that everything takes a long time to build - and then a long time to iterate - as new technology comes online. And people want a good looking game. We had a couple of physics puzzles that we were excited about that we weren't able to get in. Look for lots of physics based fun in the next games.

OPM: Is a sequel inevitable? Anything you can say about it right now?

CD: Wish we could...

OPM: Do you think the Tomb Raider series lends itself to any sort of online play? Was anything like that considered for Legend?

CD: Very early on in the design process, online was considered and then dropped. We had our work cut out for us in delivering a quality single-player experience. Part of the problem with multi-player in the Tomb Raider universe is there aren't many characters you'd want to play beside Lara. That said, I wouldn't rule it out as a future possibility.

OPM: The story line of Legend re-created the originals of Lara to a certain extent. Does that mean everything that happened in the first six games has been completely wiped away?

CD: Not at all. We chose to tell a story that didn't have much to do with the previous Tomb Raider stories, but we also tried not to trample what the previous stories had established. There are some back-story elements that have been carefully preserved as well. These elements are only touched on in Legend, but we're doing our best to create a cohesive universe for future stories that doesn't ignore the previous ones.

OPM: What was your favourite of the first six games? Did it have any major influence on Legend?

CD: Probably the second. It delivered the Tomb Raider experience better than the other five. The first and second games both had a major influence on Legend. They defined the spirit of what we set out to deliver: cutting edge movement mechanics, spending the vast majority of the game in and around ancient spaces, large physical puzzles and acrobatic combat.

OPM: Tomb Raider practically became the poster child for how not to milk a series. Where do you feel the series went wrong originally? Was the pressure to produce a new sequel every year the main problem?

CD: The pressure to produce a sequel a year is always an issue. Making any big game in that time frame is a challenge. Who knows what hurdles Core Design had to jump in making their games? All kinds of things happen in this industry. That said, from the outside, it looks like they spent too much time trying to evolve the "soft design" - story, characters, and locales - and not enough time trying to evolve the "hard design" - controls, mechanics, and game systems. This resulted in Lara getting further and further from her element - tomb raider - and left the game-play almost exactly where it was when the series started.

OPM: How will you keep the same thing from happening with Tomb Raider this time around?

CD: We care a lot about story. We believe in it as a critical component of the experience and essential to developing Lara's character, but game-play comes first. We'll not forget this.

OPM: Before Tomb Raider was handed to Crystal Dynamics, Core Design made a lot of noise about their future plans for Lara and her story following Angel Of Darkness. Does Crystal Dynamics have any sort of overarching story line they've only just scratched with Legend?

CD: We've put a fair bit of energy into the back-story. Legend was really about Lara, as any Tomb Raider game will be, but future games will deal more with this developing back-story to give fans a better sense of the larger forces at work in Lara's world.

OPM: What kind of input did Lara's creator, Toby Gard, have on the project? Will he be consulting on the inevitable sequel?

CD: It was great to have Toby on board in developing Legend. He's smart and friendly and obviously cares a lot about Lara. He did a lot of different things on Legend, including providing direction for cinematics, collaborating on story, and doing character concepts. He always had great feedback for those tings he wasn't directly on the hook for as well. He'll definitely be trapped for contribution to future projects.

OPM: Finally, we just have to ask whether you've had a chance to mess around with the Playstation 3? What are your thoughts on the system?

CD: We look forward to having three consoles out there to show our work on. Only our engineers have played with it thus far. We're sure they're having some fun with it!

Thank you for forgetting all of us, and continuing your linear way of making money. Thank you...

dulcetpurr
17th Aug 2006, 15:29
*shrug* I'm happy with Legend, and I know some others on these forums are. They listened to us. :D

I'm sure he's responding to general majority feedback; reviews and such. I believe the general majority feedback for Legend is positive.

Mangar The Dark
17th Aug 2006, 15:35
Yeah, I thought it was good too. Perfect? Nah. But none of the TR games are perfect. Legend was very good, and a lot of people liked it. The truth is, it would be impossible for Eidos to consider EVERYBODY'S opinions. Trying to please everyone is impossible and foolish. The best they can hope for is to please the majority. Sorry you couldn't enjoy it, shaahinkaaveh, but plenty of other people did.

shaahinkaaveh
17th Aug 2006, 15:49
If you looked at those links (TR forums polls) I posted some days before, you'd see that among old fans there are many many discontented poeple. They didn't bother even mentioning us, they said "they forgave her for AOD and loved her for Legend", sorry Eidos, but you're very wrong. AOD at least tried to be special -let alone who forced it not to be-, but Legend... . Yes they're listening to those million 14-year-old boys who seeing Lara in Bikini turns on. Please tell me, is there anything in the world more important than money for you?

dulcetpurr
17th Aug 2006, 15:56
Eidos is a gaming company. They make games to make money. It's what they do for a living. It's no different than you or I going to work every morning.

Have you ever been in a work situation where you were told by one person to do something one way, and then told by another person to do it the complete opposite way?? I certainly have, and it's damn frustrating. You don't know who to listen to, and you usually end up picking the person who has more senority over you and will get on your case more if you don't do what they want.

You can't please everybody. Yes, they want to make money, but to make money they need to please the customers. They just try to please as many customers as they can. Which they've done. Get over it.

Treeble
17th Aug 2006, 15:58
I'm an old fan. And I much prefer Legend over AOD (and TR3). I think money drives any business company nowadays, and it would really be anything but wise if Eidos decided to stick to the rest of old fans that didn't give up on Tomb Raider after AOD by releasing a game and hoping to reach a much smaller parcel of the market that they managed to achieve with Legend. Plus, the fact Legend has sold well will warrant us, lifetime and old fans, more Tomb Raider games to look for, instead of a franchise that would be dieing and seeling less and less upon each new release. :)

Mangar The Dark
17th Aug 2006, 16:00
shaahinkaaveh:

You have to remember, it IS a business, and so money is definitely important to them (I mean let's be honest, Tomb Raider is hardly an artistic endeavor. It's a money-making franchise.) And without money, there can be no sequels.

Of course, in order to make money,they have to keep people happy, and Legend seems to be doing that. It's selling very well. True, some old fans aren't happy with it, and I agree with you that the swimsuit reward is a bit silly, but TR2 was guilty of marketing Lara as a sex object, too. It's a shame that Eidos feels the need to resort to that, but again, it helps sales, I guess.

I also agree with you about AOD. It could have really brought the series to new heights if they finished it properly. It definitely attempted to be more revolutionary than Legend. I'd love to see an AOD remake with Legend's engine, actually-- we'd get the fluid controls of Legend, the nice graphics, grid-free maps, etc. but we'd get the depth of AOD. Would be pretty cool, I think.

EDIT-- Also, keep in mind, the interview is being done while they're still trying to sell the game. I think Mr. Livingston would have been in some trouble if he said, "Well, some people like the game, but we know a lot of old fans are really pissed off and disappointed with it."

shaahinkaaveh
19th Aug 2006, 15:49
You guys changed my mind. Sorry Eidos, I was wrong. Actually the one who was hell stupid was Core. Why did those braneless fools make all those huuuuge brilliant confusing locations, and wasted time, mind, and money to creat something memorable? They were idiots. There are much simpler ways to make money (we wanna make money, don't we): Sex, blood, action, graphics, and all else emptiness. Thank god we got rid of those money-waster fools, trying to get new and bright ideas.

Yes, you guys tought me that a company has the right to ignore its old fan base, and don't even mention their complaints, because they don't need them. There is one thing left which makes me wonder: Why don't they frankly tell us to get the hell? We didn't need you to mention this, it was already obvious that we are far fewer than your new audience, so why didn't you tell us to get lost?

And you tought me one more thing: When we love someone's work, we are able to defend anything in their dirty business, or treatment. Have this in mind, maybe one day they need to throw you into garbage can, and face another audience, in order to make money.

So there remains one more thing that you didn't justify: Why do they lie? OK, you want to make money, and you don't need us for that, so don't bother pleasing us, even mentioning our existence. But I don't understand the reason for lying. "We went back to the roots, and that's what all fans wanted"? Do you know how many "fans" (assuming you know the meaning of this word) agree on this sentence? Do you know it doesn't depend on their opinion about Legend? Almost nobody finds this sentence meaningful. "TR1 and TR2 had a great influence on Legend"? Did you need this lie to make money?

Heal mighty Eidos, heal mighty money.

shaahinkaaveh
20th Aug 2006, 19:51
Were did people go from this forum? There used to be some poeple who I guess agree on my points.

Sorin
20th Aug 2006, 20:09
You guys changed my mind. Sorry Eidos, I was wrong. Actually the one who was hell stupid was Core. Why did those braneless fools make all those huuuuge brilliant confusing locations, and wasted time, mind, and money to creat something memorable? They were idiots. There are much simpler ways to make money (we wanna make money, don't we): Sex, blood, action, graphics, and all else emptiness. Thank god we got rid of those money-waster fools, trying to get new and bright ideas.


I do prefer Crystal over Core, to begin with. But I don't mind the occasional long, complicated, non-linear level with many different ways of completing it. But not EVERY level needs to be like that. I think it should be used very sparingly, like sweets on the food pyramid are supposed to be. A very occasional nice thing, but not the main and majority course. I know there are people that like having 15 levels in a game that are all super long and really complicated and very hard, etc. But I wonder what proportion of game sales they represent in comparison to people that like a far less complicated and :mad2: (head banging) game.

shirl123
20th Aug 2006, 20:40
If you looked at those links (TR forums polls) I posted some days before, you'd see that among old fans there are many many discontented poeple.

funny. most [okay, ALMOST ALL] "old skool" fans I know LOVED the game [including myself].
sure, it's very diffrent from the other games in the series, some people don't like changes, but this one was good for her - you can't deny that it got better reviews and comments then AOD and TRC.

aussie500
20th Aug 2006, 22:24
l have been a fan since Tomb Raider 2 came out, played and liked all of them and love playing Legend. And l think she is very similair now in attitude to how she was in the first 2 games, unlike the darker more bitter character she became later in the Core games. True like many others l would have liked a few "improvements" to make the game perfect, but l am hoping Crystal Dynamics will improve in these areas in the next game

shaahinkaaveh
21st Aug 2006, 15:08
funny. most [okay, ALMOST ALL] "old skool" fans I know LOVED the game [including myself].
sure, it's very diffrent from the other games in the series, some people don't like changes, but this one was good for her - you can't deny that it got better reviews and comments then AOD and TRC.
Sure you don't have enough friends, or more likely you have friends whose opinions are similar to yours. If I want to count it like you, I'll have to says everybody I know hated the game! This isn't a right way for counting something, instead look at this poll (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=71963) for example (or have a look around the threads). This poll is made where basically less new fans are registered. These threads are also worth seeing: Thread 1: Tomb Raider Anniversary game not out till Next Year (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=72311), Thread 2: Ian Livingston (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=72336)

Anyway my point isn't that discontented fans are many, what I and a lot of fans are angry about is the fact that they completely ignored us. Livingston didn't say a single word about the existence of us, unsatisfied fans.

About the reviews: Are they any less stupid than interviews? They're based on sales. They look at the sales first, then judge the game. It means any absurd game which sales good is a great masterpiece.

shirl123
21st Aug 2006, 16:32
Sure you don't have enough friends, or more likely you have friends whose opinions are similar to yours.

you know what? I'm not gonna reply to your comment, now after seeing this.
I'm offended, you don't even know me and you're already attacking me, while I didn't even try to attack and/or start anything personal with you. I deserve an apology.
I used the word "funny", maybe I should've used the word "weird". but:
1. I also used the words "people that I know", not "friends".
2. you have no idea how many old fans I know.
and again - I deserve an apology. I didn't get all personal, you did.

I'll make myself a bit more clear - I said before that I can understand why some old fans don't like it - because it's diffrent. I've heard the exact same things on AOD at the time. but then again, take a look at the sales, I guess this game can't be that bad.
and no matter what will happen, you can't get everyone satisfied. for example, I didn't like TR4 at all, while others think it was the best in the series.

Mangar The Dark
21st Aug 2006, 16:34
About the reviews: Are they any less stupid than interviews? They're based on sales. They look at the sales first, then judge the game.


Reviews are not based on sales. You're losing credibility by saying that. Many online reviews come out on the day a game is released, so how could they possibly base the review on sales?


It means any absurd game which sales good is a great masterpiece.

AOD sold a tremendous number of copies. Are you honestly going to tell me that reviews painted it as a "great masterpiece"?

By the way, I didn't like TR2. I know most other people did, but I didn't like it. So maybe I should start ranting and raving about how Core never acknowledged the fact that I thought TR2 was a lame sequel. Seems a bit silly, though, doesn't it?

Gamerking
21st Aug 2006, 21:14
CD: Very early on in the design process, online was considered and then dropped. We had our work cut out for us in delivering a quality single-player experience. Part of the problem with multi-player in the Tomb Raider universe is there aren't many characters you'd want to play beside Lara. That said, I wouldn't rule it out as a future possibility.

Well duh Edios, the Halo games you play as Mastercheif etc. of course we want to play as Lara! Give her more suits just like master chief has colours allow us to move around the enviroment in a huge map with 4-6 other people!:mad: :nut:

Sophia Leigh
22nd Aug 2006, 02:10
The fact is that they didn't ignore us, if you read that entire thread they stickied last year about what you want to see in TR7 there are quite a few suggestions there that ended up in the game (I'm not sure if its since been archived or whatever, do a search and you should find it). Maybe the frustrations with some people is that they didn't include their suggestions but they included others. Maybe the frustration is how they delivered certain suggestions, for example a few of us posted that we wanted secrets back in the game and we wanted a purpose for collecting them. What I personally would liked to have see is secrets yes but instead of unlocking costumes unlocking a bonus level like All Hallows in TR3.

I understand how shaahinkaaveh feels but as others have pointed out we wouldn't have Tomb Raider if it wasn't about business and making money. The fact is, that poll that shaahinkaaveh posted the link to shows that the majority love Legend.

I'm one of those "old school" fans who loved Legend and I'm certainly not a 14 year old boy.

shaahinkaaveh
22nd Aug 2006, 07:06
you know what? I'm not gonna reply to your comment, now after seeing this.
I'm offended, you don't even know me and you're already attacking me, while I didn't even try to attack and/or start anything personal with you. I deserve an apology.
I used the word "funny", maybe I should've used the word "weird". but:
1. I also used the words "people that I know", not "friends".
2. you have no idea how many old fans I know.
and again - I deserve an apology. I didn't get all personal, you did.

I'll make myself a bit more clear - I said before that I can understand why some old fans don't like it - because it's diffrent. I've heard the exact same things on AOD at the time. but then again, take a look at the sales, I guess this game can't be that bad.
and no matter what will happen, you can't get everyone satisfied. for example, I didn't like TR4 at all, while others think it was the best in the series.
Shirl123, I'm sorry that you got offended, I didn't mean that at all. Nevertheless I don't see how I got personal? What I said was simply that we can't base our judgments on those who "we know", because I'm as sure as you that I know many many people with the opposite opinion (the problem is they don't post in this thread). Anyway, I apologize again, maybe I couldn't state it well. You don't know me either, and just because I'm angry with Eidos and CD because of those interviews doesn't mean I'm a stupid guy who insults everyone, on the contrary I'm fond of "reason".

About your comment on sales: I guess I've answered to it before: Being popular doesn't show anything. They know how to turn on poeple, and not anything which turns basic instincts (beautifulness, speed, sex, etc.) is worthful.

shaahinkaaveh
22nd Aug 2006, 07:23
Mangar, I didn't say every review is based on sales. But basically the judgment that many people make here (how could it be bad while it sales that much?, the franchise is survived, etc.) is quite usual in reviews. Anyway I confess I don't know much about reviews, but what I said is something I can't resist to think of.
AOD didn't sale well, if it did, they didn't say: "The franchise was dying", and "therfore we decided to hand it to another company, which had made many succesful games...".

Mum, I've seen that thread, it actually shows that almost nobody asked for things that they put in Legend, on the contrary, fans asked for puzzles, exploration, ... . So, you're right, they started to ignore everybody much earlier. The only exception is the mansion. Here is the THREAD (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=50462) (it's the first thread in archive).

The poll I posted doesn't show that the majority loved Legend, but that 1/3 of poeple loved it, while another 1/3 find it nothing special. Among these many people have complaints. If you compare the results of polls in here and tombraiderforums.com, you can conclude that the major love for Legend is due to new members (which are fewer in TRF, but more here). There is also a newer and more meaningful POLL (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=72720).

Mangar The Dark
22nd Aug 2006, 15:21
Mangar, AOD didn't sale well, if it did, they didn't say: "The franchise was dying", and "therfore we decided to hand it to another company, which had made many succesful games...".


AOD DID sell well, though.

To quote Core:

“People weren’t proud of the games themselves,” recalls Rummery. “It looked really good, but the gameplay just wasn’t up to scratch. It needed another six months, but it went out as it was, and everyone was pretty miserable to see it get mauled. But, to be fair, it did go on to sell around two million units.”


I'd say 2 million units is quite good.



Mum, I've seen that thread, it actually shows that almost nobody asked for things that they put in Legend, on the contrary, fans asked for puzzles, exploration

But we DID get puzzles in Legend! I remember quite a few of them.
People also wanted a return to exotic locations, which we got. They wanted better controls than AOD, which we got.

Of course, you're right, we didn't get everything, and I do hope Crystal Dynamics will continue to listen to us and improve the franchise, but it's not fair to say that almost nobody got what they asked for.

Treeble
22nd Aug 2006, 15:45
you can conclude that the major love for Legend is due to new members (which are fewer in TRF, but more here).

I disagree. Most of the active crying members registered on both boards in 2005 or 2006. I did have a look through the posts in a number of the links, but quite frankly, I'm not that bothered. They do not care for names, they care for numbers. So if 10 'old' fans don't like Legend, 10 'new' fans do (maybe even more) and that's enough. What happens is that there are a number of Sore Core fans.

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of members suddenly have gone on a total anti-Ian Livingstone jeer just because he praises Legend. Well, for all I know, he was involved with AOD, too, so it's silly saying he knows nothing he's talking about when he speaks about the travesty that game was.

shaahinkaaveh
22nd Aug 2006, 17:49
I disagree. Most of the active crying members registered on both boards in 2005 or 2006. I did have a look through the posts in a number of the links, but quite frankly, I'm not that bothered. They do not care for names, they care for numbers. So if 10 'old' fans don't like Legend, 10 'new' fans do (maybe even more) and that's enough. What happens is that there are a number of Sore Core fans.

New fans (that is Legend fans) are more here. Compair the similar polls in two forums:

How would you rate Tomb Raider Legend? Eidos Forums (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=58644) Tombraiderforums (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=71963)

What is your favorite TR? Eidos Forums (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=57874) Tombraiderforums (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=72086)
IMO it has one explanation: Legend fans are more here.
Important: The poll on TRF isn't actually a "what's your fav TR" poll, but more like a "what are your first fav TRs", because multiple choise was allowed. Which means Legend isn't among the first two or three favorites of many people there.

In that poll you see that in old fans' taste Legend isn't any more popular than AOD (actually AOD reaches the classics!), so who saved the franchise? The new fans, which I'd insist are some millions of 14-year-old boys, who prefer braneless actions (no offense to those who like Legend here).

Mangar The Dark
22nd Aug 2006, 18:51
so who saved the franchise? The new fans, which I'd insist are some millions of 14-year-old boys, who prefer braneless actions (no offense to those who like Legend here).

"braneless"? I think you mean "brainless". lol.

Anyway, back on topic--
Maybe younger fans do like Legend. But I'll tell you in my case, it's the opposite. When I was younger, I loved the original games because I had plenty of time to play them. Now that I'm older, I'm working full time, I own my own place, I have a lot more responsibilities, etc, etc, so I'm actually glad for a game that's a little less involved. I like knowing that I can play for a little bit each day and always see something new. I no longer have enough free time to backtrack through massive levels trying to find a hidden key.

shirl123
22nd Aug 2006, 20:14
About your comment on sales: I guess I've answered to it before: Being popular doesn't show anything. They know how to turn on poeple, and not anything which turns basic instincts (beautifulness, speed, sex, etc.) is worthful.

I accept your apology. :)
I guess it was your anger talking there, we really have no reason to judge each other just because of that. but it doesn't matter now. :)

as for the sales - AOD sold good as well. was it good? hmm, the majority, n00bs and oldies, were disappointed at the time, as far as I can remember. the critics hated it, so you can't say that they base their opinions on sales as well.
both TRL and AOD looked promising, but as far as I can remember the hype was bigger around AOD then TRL BEFORE they were released...and it means a lot, well, if I remember correctly.
anyway, I'm with Mangar on this. I don't have much to add, he bascially said everything I had in my mind :p

shaahinkaaveh
22nd Aug 2006, 21:33
Actually we can't say if a game has sold well or not, but they are the ones to say that. AOD sold 2 million copies, ok, now how can we understand how good it is? We must know how much effort and budget they've put on the game, and how much they expected from it. Apart from that, while AOD sold 2 millions altogether, Legend sold about 3 million copies only in 3 months! And it seems they're still greedy... .

Anyway, we're getting far from my main point (which is shared between me and many other fans): They are ignoring us, or better said: They've thrown us in garbage can. They said "all fans" are happy, while we are not, they said "Legend was what they wanted", while it's not, they said that "fans think it goes back to the roots", while we don't (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=72441)... .

And Mr. Livingston has spoken another stunning word of wisdom today, literally meaning old fans should get the hell: Today in his talk in EIEF he said: "Gamers these days prefer a short, sharp thrill ride as opposed to a long, drawn out experience." Mr. Livingston, you mean we are no f*** gamers, don't you.

Sophia Leigh
23rd Aug 2006, 00:29
Mum, I've seen that thread, it actually shows that almost nobody asked for things that they put in Legend, on the contrary, fans asked for puzzles, exploration, ... . So, you're right, they started to ignore everybody much earlier. The only exception is the mansion. Here is the THREAD (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=50462) (it's the first thread in archive).


They listened to more than just the request for the manor, heres a list of stuff that they did put in the game that was listed on just the first page of that thread, some people are repeating/adding to what others have previously said. Some people requester secrects and "pling", they listened to secrets although we didn't get "pling":



*Style. Well, I guess I want a wardrobe worthy of Lara Croft. She's a rich and classy adventurer, after all, and should look like it.

*Character. I also want her to have an attitude adjustment, no more snarky rude slings, but more witty and intelligent repartee. "Mind the bell" was good, "Busy girl, got to go" was not.

*Exploring. I want to be able to climb up on everything, try to push stuff around, and generally have freedom. I want to do it myself!



- Bring back Lara's Home!

- I miss the "Story so far..." from TR2 and 3...and I'm sure it won't be too hard to be included!

- The best storyline ever in a Tomb Raider, full of surprises and twists, I like that.

- It would be great to see Lara to interact more with the environment around her to get out from some dangerous situations, wouldn't be?



I'd like to see Lara's Home back in the game. Even if it's not part of the training area it would still be nice for it to be there as many TR fans know they always after the game went around the mansion after playing.
Also the story so far was a great option that's also gone. You were
able to see all the cut scenes or FMV's you completed through the game.




3. Secrets ("Pling")
5. No AJ/Bond stuff - we play Lara
6. Not so many "modern City" levels


I give a second "YES!" for Secrets! *Pling!*
I also give another vote for a Home level, and I also enjoy very much Lara's special moves, handstand, swandive, summersault-on-the-ground-or-off things....


Here are a few thoughts on what I personally believe helps to make Tomb Raider so special.

1) The Character

Lara Croft is a character we all fell in love with. Lara is Lara. She walks a certain way, makes little grunts when she runs into walls, her bones crumple after a fall, she jumps sideways while firing her weapons, etc. Her personality is incredibly important.

4) From TR1 to TR6, although there are many changes, some things remained constant throughout. Large and small medi paks, double pistols etc. These were all a part of the Tomb Raider experience which was so loved. Who gives a damn about chocolate bars? Give us our medi paks and other familiar inventory items back!

5) The music from Tomb Raider has been nothing short of breath taking. Who will ever forget the adrenaline rush as the Atlantean Stronghold music kicked in when you encountered the TRex in the original game? Or when they first wandered into the pool area in the City of Vilcabamba? The Tomb raider atmosphere was perfected by such thoughtful placing of appropriate musical scores.

6) The secret sound is a much loved, fundamental, integral part of the Tomb Raider experience. Give us our secrets back. And a bonus level for finding them all would be a nice touch.




Secrets yes! but please let there be a point to getting them like in TR3 - not like in TR4.

Lara's house training level - yes bring it back!

Story so far - yes! It was great watching story so far in TR2 & TR3 and a disappointment when that option was no longer available in the later games.

Challenging puzzles yes but lets not go overboard like with Brother Obscura
No going back between levels like in TR4 - that was just was just confuzing and made that section of the game drag on.

More TR1 style levels, TR3 jungle style levels and TR4 tomb/pyramid style levels. I don't mind Lara running around in cities but make it a minimum.
The new character design is great so please don't change that.



Secrets (bling!).......yes! Secrets should be found only by the careful examination of the explorer. All secrets found should result in a reward.......preferably a bonus level.

Lara's home........yes! I loved exploring the house. She's rich, so make it a big one.

Special moves........yes! I love the headstand!

Pickups......make them logical.........there will be medpacks or Uzis on a soldier's body........but not in a tomb. You find artifacts in a tomb. Let her start out from her house with supplies and replenish them along the way.

The music......it should use the original TR theme in some way.........where's Nathan McCree?

If Lara is idle too long (due to our indecision or whatever) let her exercise or stretch or something. Maybe she could look at us and say, "What are you waiting for?"

Lara's personality.........lets see some variable facial expressions....surely that is possible now? Playing TR has always been about getting immersed in the experience. I still remember the first time I let Lara die........I felt as though I had let the side down. Have Lara talk to us as we make the journey, cautioning us about possible traps ahead or preparing us for the next objective or discoursing about the history of the place (The commentary could be placed in a notebook if essential to the quest). Maybe she could even call us by name, woohoo! Talk about the ultimate immersive experience! Wouldn't it be cool for Lara to look you in the eye just before a loooong jump and say, "Are you ready?"

Don't target the game for the mostly young players....there has to be a huge and loyal fan base of all ages........just look at how long and strong the (relatively antiquated) LE has been going. Forget the media critics and Hollywood........I believe this will be the most anticipated release in gaming history!


Moves - As long as the Handstand and Swan Dive are kept, include whatever else you want!


I'm really hoping Lara's Mansion will make it's return in this game... That'd be great.
(I've noticed this seems to be among the most requested things to return in Legend... Hopefully we'll see it back again -- Bigger and better than ever)

It would also be cool if you could pick Lara's wardrobe, in some way. Outfit changes have always been cool in TR... TR3 had a good variety of outfits, but it'd be awesome if you could pick where she wears them.

Hand To Hand Combat rocks -- It's already been hinted that this will be back in some way in TRL... I did like the way she fought in AOD, but it's a bit stupid, for lack of a better word, that you're only pushing one button to do all these different moves. Maybe Lara can go in and out of a fighting mode or something, so you can use the other buttons to do different actions.

I like the idea of her clothes getting dirty... very nice addition... Of course I haven't seen it in action, so I can't really say much else.

Treeble
23rd Aug 2006, 00:39
There *was* a sound chime for the rewards, though nothing as hypnotising as the 'pling' from the first three games. ;)

Sophia Leigh
23rd Aug 2006, 03:04
There *was* a sound chime for the rewards, though nothing as hypnotising as the 'pling' from the first three games. ;)

Hey there was too :o (its been a few months now), its was more like a jingling or tinkling sound.

Natla'd
23rd Aug 2006, 11:29
It seems to me that most of the fans wanted to get back to how Tomb Raider used to be - so how can Crystal Dynamics / Eidos justify turning the game into some sorts of a movie spin-off? I sometimes think the only people Eidos listened to were hormonal teenage boys who'd like to see more of Lara's breasts with a minimal amount of effort.

Mangar The Dark
23rd Aug 2006, 13:14
I sometimes think the only people Eidos listened to were hormonal teenage boys who'd like to see more of Lara's breasts with a minimal amount of effort.


Actually, aside from the Tokyo outfit, I really don't see how Legend falls into this trap. It was a solid adventure story, and portrayed Lara as a likeable, determined, intelligent person, rather than as a sex-object. She didn't act flirtatious, and there were no teaser scenes (such as the shower thing in TR2.) If all you could see were Lara's breasts, then I think that says more about you than the game (and I really don't mean that to be rude or offensive, I just think there's some psychological truth to it.)

Anyway, I'm well past being a "hormonal teenage boy," and I know Mum is not a hormonal teenage boy, and it seems we both enjoyed the game.

Natla'd
23rd Aug 2006, 18:00
The hormonal teenage boy thing was an exaggeration - what I mean is, CD and Eidos seemed to have pandered to the people to spend three hours on a game collecting shiny things, just so they can dress up in pretty outfits. TRL has been dumbed down too far. And yes, there have been some sexual things in pretty much all Tomb Raider games, I agree, but I find the TR2's shower scene just a little more subtle that TRL's poppin'-out-of-the-dress scene.

Personally, I think Lara's character was completely changed as well. Rather being the strong, silent, serious individual of TR1-3, she's turned into some sort of over-made-up, wise-cracking disney character who needs a full team of cheerleaders before attempting to overcome an obstacle. And she doesn't just raid tombs for the fun of it anymore, hell no, she has to have some sorts of an angsty reason for it.


If all you could see were Lara's breasts, then I think that says more about you than the game

With that dress in Tokyo, how could I not see them? ;) As a somewhat heterosexual woman, I like to think that I wouldn't spend my time fixated on Lara's breasts. That dress just symbolises one of them many greviances I have with Tomb Raider Legend.

BTW, I enjoyed the game too, but I still hate the changes it's brought to the TR series. Calling it a Tomb Raider game is like calling Sonic The Hedgehog a Tomb Raider game.

Red Dress
23rd Aug 2006, 19:54
This means that Eidos is going to completely ignore the fact that AoD is a cult classic among many TR fans, and that Kurtis is second only to Lara in his number of fans.

Natla'd
23rd Aug 2006, 20:41
This means that Eidos is going to completely ignore the fact that AoD is a cult classic among many TR fans, and that Kurtis is second only to Lara in his number of fans.

Okay, now that makes the interview a little more bearable. ;)

shaahinkaaveh
23rd Aug 2006, 21:10
Mum. I'm really surprised by your post, do you call it a list of things that they listened to? In your list I see a big list of things they didn't listen to. Let's forget things outside your list. Let's see:


*Exploring. I want to be able to climb up on everything, try to push stuff around, and generally have freedom. I want to do it myself!
Really, a lot of freedom, the only thing I wasn't free to do was getting lost! Just as much freedom as a train can have in a railroad.


- The best storyline ever in a Tomb Raider, full of surprises and twists, I like that.
Maybe it's more a matter of taste or opinion, but do you really find stroy of Legend "full of surprises and twists"? Yes, it was a clean story, with no gap or "bug", it was consistent and not contraditional, but it wasn't "full of twists", not at all. This expression discribes AOD's stroy, not Legend.


- It would be great to see Lara to interact more with the environment around her to get out from some dangerous situations, wouldn't be?
You mean they thought this guy was talking about a grapple? I don't think so. And "dangerous situations", how many were there actually?


Give us our medi paks and other familiar inventory items back!

Inventory? Sorry, you don't need it in Legend.


The music from Tomb Raider has been nothing short of breath taking. Who will ever forget the adrenaline rush as the Atlantean Stronghold music kicked in when you encountered the TRex in the original game? Or when they first wandered into the pool area in the City of Vilcabamba? The Tomb raider atmosphere was perfected by such thoughtful placing of appropriate musical scores

The music......it should use the original TR theme in some way
Ah, you mean constant non-stop techno music? Right we'll do!


Give us our secrets back. And a bonus level for finding them all would be a nice touch.

Secrets yes! but please let there be a point to getting them like in TR3 - not like in TR4.

Secrets should be found only by the careful examination of the explorer. All secrets found should result in a reward.......preferably a bonus level.
And by "bonus level" you probably mean "underwear", ok.
There is a "point" of course.


Challenging puzzles yes
Sure!


Pickups......make them logical.
Nothing is the most logical thing in the world.


Don't target the game for the mostly young players....there has to be a huge and loyal fan base of all ages........just look at how long and strong the (relatively antiquated) LE has been going. Forget the media critics and Hollywood........I believe this will be the most anticipated release in gaming history!
Pardon me?

RuumTaedor
23rd Aug 2006, 21:37
Forgive me, everyone, but I can't resist jumping in here.

Ahh, interpretation of the ambiguous open-for-interpretation English language is interesting, is it not? If I were a referee in this tug'o'war, I would commend everyone for their effort and call it a draw.

If you were listening carefully, you might have heard my silence. Well, I'm off to poke my nose in other people's threads. See ya.

Sophia Leigh
24th Aug 2006, 00:33
Mum. I'm really surprised by your post, do you call it a list of things that they listened to? In your list I see a big list of things they didn't listen to. Let's forget things outside your list. Let's see:


Really, a lot of freedom, the only thing I wasn't free to do was getting lost! Just as much freedom as a train can have in a railroad.?

The point of this sentence was "I want to be able to climb up on everything, try to push stuff around"



Maybe it's more a matter of taste or opinion, but do you really find stroy of Legend "full of surprises and twists"? Yes, it was a clean story, with no gap or "bug", it was consistent and not contraditional, but it wasn't "full of twists", not at all. This expression discribes AOD's stroy, not Legend.
But it did have twists, do you know anything about the Legend of King Arthur? Also suddenly there was a possibility that her mother didn't die after all.



You mean they thought this guy was talking about a grapple? I don't think so. And "dangerous situations", how many were there actually?
It was more than just the grapple, often there were different ways to achieve a result, e.g the water wheel puzzle, you could either have Lara swing and kick that pillar to get that wheel free, or you could use that big mounted machine gun and detroy the pillar that way. When fighting, you could either spend your time shooting everyone or you could shoot a barrel and blow your enemy up. We had Lara pushing boulders over edges, pulling down stuff - you can't tell me that thats not interacting with her environment.


Inventory? Sorry, you don't need it in Legend.
Actually I didn't mention an inventory, George clearly said inventory items. "Large and small medi paks, double pistols etc. These were all a part of the Tomb Raider experience which was so loved. Who gives a damn about chocolate bars? Give us our medi paks and other familiar inventory items back!"



Ah, you mean constant non-stop techno music? Right we'll do!
Techno? Were we playing the same game?




And by "bonus level" you probably mean "underwear", ok.
There is a "point" of course.

Underwear? Did you actually collect the rewards?


Sure!


Nothing is the most logical thing in the world.


Pardon me

I'm going to stay away from this thread now, its getting ridiculous. My point is that "they" did listen, "they" have included some of our suggestions, I've given you quite a few examples from just the first page of the suggestions thread. Its silly to think that they could include every single suggestion, especially since some suggestions are opposite to others. If you didn't like the game then thats fine but to say they didn't listen... well I've said what I have to say.

Treeble
24th Aug 2006, 01:01
Yeah, it seems history is bound to repeat itself. Until TR8 comes around, old "fans" will have to bash the new game for being different. When they get a new thing to bash, they'll let go of TR7.

aussie500
24th Aug 2006, 05:50
CD did listen to the fans, and provided many things asked for, particularly the ones that were absent in AOD, it was the things we got that many would never have asked for that is causing the problem. l think most of this strife is caused by how the game was presented to us on a platter so anyone and everyone could finish it. If you were to play without subtitles or voices, and if CD had made the shiny objects and multiple instructions an option capable of being turned off, the game would have been much harder than it was, without these extra's the game is much more like a "Tomb Raider" game. It is only that we have been treated like idiots that many will not accept Legend, since all the other games in the series have required things like imagination, brains, persistance, curiosity etc, none of which are required to get through Legend, although to get all the rewards did require a small effort.

shaahinkaaveh
24th Aug 2006, 06:29
Maybe I'd better keep quiet now, it's better than getting more new titles.

But just a last reply: It's not ridiculous, you posted some single suggestions, and I posted some lines of them, neither of these shows if they listened or not, instead we must scan the suggestions for what most people wanted. I don't know who said they have to listen to everybody or please everybody? Just show me that idiot who said this. We are a lot of fans (old fans if you don't mind), we aren't "every single person" to please. And the problem isn't that we aren't pleased, but that in their "researches" we were completely missing.

This thread was made by a stupid basher to tell them to use words more carefully. Just be careful what you're saying, when speaking like this: "Gamers these days prefer a short, sharp thrill (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=58425) ride as opposed to a long, drawn out experience.", or "Legend is what fans wanted (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=72720)", Mr. Livingston.

That's it.

aussie500
24th Aug 2006, 09:24
They did thier best, we asked for a return of the Manor, we got it, some wanted a few more clothes to play with, we got more than enough of em. We wanted secrets and our pling sound, l thought it was close enough and certainly chasing all the rewards kept me more occupied than playing the rest of the game, We complained about the pickups in AOD, give us back the medipacks, done. People wanted to ride a motorbike, they tried to provide. If CD had been given more time the motorbike sections would have been better. There is no way anyone can say they were not listening to the fans. We wanted a game with better controls than AOD, and l certainly think the controls in Legend are fantastic. Some complained about the lack of tombs in AOD, so we got more tombs for the length than any other previous games. People complained Lara was to dark, to far removed from the Lara we all fell in love with, they wanted a return to the old Lara, so CD time warped Lara back to her sunny, chirpy self from 1996, complete reversal to the direction she had been heading. Possibly they went a bit far with the return to roots idea, but you cannot deny it makes for an interesting story to see what made Lara a Tomb Raider, what motivated her to search for all these artifacts, undeniably she enjoys what she does, but it does no harm to fill in a few of the unknown areas of Lara's life and personality, to get to know her better rather than always seeing one side of her, she is a bit more balanced now. Keep in mind that although CD listened to the fans they also wanted more people to play Tomb Raider, so they also listened to those who did not like the Tomb Raider games, many of which had tried them at some time and given up. Such suggestions even from my own friends, many of whom love to play games, but previously not Tomb Raider games were, they were to frustrating, they got lost, it was to hard, they got lonely with Lara being the only character, and it scared the living daylights out of them and they were never touching it again. They all happily played Tomb Raider Legend and are now eagerly awaiting the next installement. They think Crystal Dynamics is the greatest thing since sliced bread, they finally brought a Tomb Raider game they can finish. In order to get more Tomb Raider games made, l can put up with having my favorite game watered down a bit , and l am sure any future games have to lean a little more in the direction l am used to. It was only their first and they tried hardest to please everyone with this one, they had the same problems as the Core team, designing a new engine, new Lara, new moves and running out of time, and they produced a great game at the end of the day. For Tomb Raider 8 most of the hard work is already done, they already have the story, Legend sold well, so there will not be as much pressure on them, they will be able to make the game they want to, rather than the game they had to settle for

Xcom
24th Aug 2006, 10:12
Just be careful what you're saying, when speaking like this: "Gamers these days prefer a short, sharp thrill (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=58425) ride as opposed to a long, drawn out experience."

I don't think this is his personal, misguided opinion. I remember reading several articles mentioning a research which pointed out that this is in fact how it is. With the dominance of console gaming, majority of people prefers shorter, action packed singleplayer games as apposed to "never-ending" 40+ hrs games.

Natla'd
24th Aug 2006, 11:28
Yeah, it seems history is bound to repeat itself. Until TR8 comes around, old "fans" will have to bash the new game for being different. When they get a new thing to bash, they'll let go of TR7.

Yes, old fans absolutely love being completely disappointed after waiting three years for the next installment in their beloved franchise. They love being told things like "We're taking Tomb Raider back to it's roots" and "The first two Tomb Raiders were a major influence!", only to buy the game and find out they've been lied to from start to finish. Nothing pleases us more than having high-ups like Ian Livingstone make completely unfounded and ridiculous comments about the Tomb Raider fanbase recieving the game well and people liking "short sharp thrill rides" instead of "long, drawn-out" games (I mean, come on, the first four games were long and drawn-out, and these are the games CD is supposed to be looking back too!).

If Tomb Raider Legend had been a proper Tomb Raider game, like they promised, I think I would have killed myself. I do love to be let down. ¬_¬

BTW, what the inverted commas around 'fans'? Are you suggesting that people who didn't welcome TRLite with open arms aren't fans any more?