PDA

View Full Version : Balance: Ranged vs Melee



Kriegson
27th Sep 2013, 13:43
A few thoughts on balance, starting with the above.

There are many subjects to use as inspiration, namely alien versus predator comes to mind. But how to go about it?
Just a quick observation, based off what we have seen from the design of the clans compared to the humans, they seem to be building the balance starting with vampires.

Make the vampires interesting, entertaining, and deadly. Everything they should be and what fits the lore well.

This seems to have been accomplished.

Then, onto the humans. With relatively little set in stone, they have a lot more leeway. How do we make characters who are undeniably weaker than their immortal counterparts, and yet still a threat? And in this, how do we maintain that vampires are Apex predators, with which humans have only their technology and guile to stave off?

If the humans are that technical to keep balanced, how do you ensure low skill players can hold their own, and high skill players don't just dominate vampires?

Kriegson
27th Sep 2013, 13:44
From what we can see so far, if vampires close the gap they have basically won. The tankish brutes slam them into the ground, fliers lift them up into the air where sans supporting fire to kill the flier, they are helpless, while I suppose the reavers sneak up on and "backstab" humans otherwise, they are also able to climb.

In comparison, humans have grapple guns (possibly scout only) grenades and fire (alchemist only) and traps (hunter only, presumably). Either countering the vampiric assault with their own mobility, or using their aggression against them.

What does this mean in gameplay terms?
Unorganized humans can easily be picked off at a moments notice, especially against a skilled and sneaky vampire or simply brute forced.
Cunning humans can use traps to injure or weaken a vampire, leading them to think they are simple prey, when in fact they are leading them into an ambush or weakening them for the slaughter. While vampires can brute force humans, multiple humans can eradicate vampires when focusing fire.

Basically it all sounds good so far.

Where might problems occur?
Instakill animations
Vampires seem to have an animation on their kills (may just be a additional "execution") or at the very least in the case of the fliers (Raziels' clan) they have the ability to incapacitate a target, not unlike left 4 dead. This could be abused in that a well played team of vampires would simultaneously attack all human players at once, disabling the entire team in one strike.
While satisfying for the vampire, these events are often very frustrating for those on the receiving end.

Solution?
Allow humans a chance to escape, possibly based on HP. Each escape costs a degree of HP if successful, and if they do not have enough HP to escape it will automatically fail. This makes it so vampires should attempt to weaken a target before finishing it off, and humans have at least some chance of survival. It feels more satisfying for vampires having earned the kill and less cheap for humans having the ability to fight back.


Trapspam/camp
If humans can repeatedly grapple shot away, drop mines and stand on them, or otherwise abuse traps to make catching them always result in damage or near impossible, things could get very cheap very quickly.

Solution?
Humans can be harmed by their traps. Grenades can self damage as can mines, grapple guns have a moment of vulnerability after used (reeling back in) where the user cannot fire or use the gun again until completed, may be automatic after usage or manual via reloading.

Other ideas may pop up as well, this is largely conjecture since we know little to nothing of the game, and largely just to throw some ideas around that might even help to inspire the devs.

RainaAudron
27th Sep 2013, 13:55
When playing I noticed that humans are fragile when encountered alone, however, they can take vampires down when staying close to each other. I think success of vamp/human side depends on the strategy of the team and how well players co-operate together.

And about the different skills of players - they said it will have a match making system.

MasterShuriko
27th Sep 2013, 14:05
A few thoughts on balance, starting with the above.

There are many subjects to use as inspiration, namely alien versus predator comes to mind. But how to go about it?
Just a quick observation, based off what we have seen from the design of the clans compared to the humans, they seem to be building the balance starting with vampires.

Make the vampires interesting, entertaining, and deadly. Everything they should be and what fits the lore well.

This seems to have been accomplished.

Then, onto the humans. With relatively little set in stone, they have a lot more leeway. How do we make characters who are undeniably weaker than their immortal counterparts, and yet still a threat? And in this, how do we maintain that vampires are Apex predators, with which humans have only their technology and guile to stave off?

If the humans are that technical to keep balanced, how do you ensure low skill players can hold their own, and high skill players don't just dominate vampires?

width='500'

The_Hylden
27th Sep 2013, 19:45
From my own perspective, humans were very much underpowered. However, if you have team members rallying with you, this would help. I didn't so much in my demo, so got my butt constantly handed to me on the human side.

Vampmaster
27th Sep 2013, 21:44
From my own perspective, humans were very much underpowered. However, if you have team members rallying with you, this would help. I didn't so much in my demo, so got my butt constantly handed to me on the human side.

I'd constantly get surrounded by vampires and just be thinking to myself "If only I had the Force Glyph". I'm not used to communicating with headsets and I was too busy trying to learn the keys to coordinate with my team mates (including Mama Robotnik who admitted to stealing my kills on neogaf).

Swagraven
27th Sep 2013, 21:45
Clearly we'll have to be able to play well together.
Which may make this game difficult for some people...

The_Hylden
27th Sep 2013, 22:12
I'd constantly get surrounded by vampires and just be thinking to myself "If only I had the Force Glyph". I'm not used to communicating with headsets and I was too busy trying to learn the keys to coordinate with my team mates (including Mama Robotnik who admitted to stealing my kills on neogaf).

:lol: Never trust a Robotnik, eh? Yeah, I didn't have much team support, either. My helper was answering other people's questions behnd us while I was also busy trying to figure out why my cross bow shots were flying all over creation :p And just where the hell that Dumahim came from to tear me apart, again!


Clearly we'll have to be able to play well together.
Which may make this game difficult for some people...

Yes, seeing just how well the community cooperates with each other will be nitriguing. If we get the usual immature, unparented kidos invading Nosgoth, 'twill be a nightmare, for sure. And then there are the grown ups :p

Rynfear
28th Sep 2013, 09:55
How about we wait until we've played the damn game before talking about balance and not judge based on a silly trailer?

"Ranged vs melee" is more frequently a problem in MOBA circles. Making one side ranged and the other melee certainly simplifies the problem.

Kriegson
28th Sep 2013, 10:43
How about we wait until we've played the damn game before talking about balance and not judge based on a silly trailer?

"Ranged vs melee" is more frequently a problem in MOBA circles. Making one side ranged and the other melee certainly simplifies the problem.


Other ideas may pop up as well, this is largely conjecture since we know little to nothing of the game, and largely just to throw some ideas around that might even help to inspire the devs.
Making one side ranged and the other melee hardly balances things out =/
In fact, that makes it more challenging than both having access to ranged, or both being melee (balanced) but yeah that aside it's mostly for tossing ideas around and amusement.