PDA

View Full Version : I don't understand a lot of this hate?



MoebiusTimeStreamer
27th Sep 2013, 00:25
Why are so many LoK fans so pissed about the style of play this game is taking? Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?

Reidbynature
27th Sep 2013, 00:38
I kind of do, but I think many are just being drama queens about it. People really need to grow up.

Rexidus
27th Sep 2013, 01:17
People tend to be very vocal when they dislike something and a substantial change to a cherished thing is almost universally despised by the die hard fans. That is unfortunately the way of the interwebz.

I just let the haters hate and get stoked for the game. I'll learn more before I decide if this game is true to the brand.

Claribabe
27th Sep 2013, 02:01
Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?

You have to understand the greater effects a game like this can have.

Consider how Nintendo, Capcom, and EA reacted to Other M, DMC, and Syndicate respectively. The games were very much bastardizations of previous games in the series and rather than admit their mistake, they blamed poor sales on lack of interest in the series.

It's a very concerning thing for a long time fan of a classic series like this. On one hand, if it sells poorly Sqeenix might blame it on lack of interest in LoK and shelve the series for another decade. On the other hand, if it sells well, then this may become a more permanent direction for the series and we still won't see the LoK game we've been waiting for for almost a decade till god knows when.

I hope that answers your question

Gihadist
27th Sep 2013, 03:18
Why are so many LoK fans so pissed about the style of play this game is taking? Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?

Fans are pissed because from everything people have seen so far, Nosgoth is everything that Legacy of Kain isn't with a name slapped on for brand recognition, giving off the idea to many that this is a greedy cash grab at a dedicated, niche fanbase. These so-called fans should learn to stop thinking they're entitled to everything in a franchise and understand that game developers sometimes like to put a spin on timeless classics, both big and small. With they way they behave, they should be grateful that they're even getting a new game after a whole decade.

synesthasa
27th Sep 2013, 04:41
You have to understand the greater effects a game like this can have.

Consider how Nintendo, Capcom, and EA reacted to Other M, DMC, and Syndicate respectively. The games were very much bastardizations of previous games in the series and rather than admit their mistake, they blamed poor sales on lack of interest in the series.

It's a very concerning thing for a long time fan of a classic series like this. On one hand, if it sells poorly Sqeenix might blame it on lack of interest in LoK and shelve the series for another decade. On the other hand, if it sells well, then this may become a more permanent direction for the series and we still won't see the LoK game we've been waiting for for almost a decade till god knows when.

I hope that answers your question


Very well put. LOK fans aren't upset because of change, (we loved SR, which was different from BO) the anger is because all of what was loved about the series is not present in this game. People have been begging and pleading for a new game for a decade now, and have mostly been met with silence. Then a new game is announced and it is virtually the opposite of what the entire series is about. And I might add that there are some (like myself) that actually don't play games on PC. The series started on a console if I'm not mistaken. So even if I did want to try this game, I can't even do that unless somewhere down the road they decide to make it available for a console.

I'm not up in arms hoping this fails, but at the same time, the choices made here have me scratching my head more than a little bit. If this was a companion game to an actual LOK title, or a multiplayer part of a LOK title, I'd be as happy as can be. As it stands now, I'm just trying to stay positive that something good may come out of this...though admittedly I can't see what that would be.

lucinvampire
27th Sep 2013, 07:41
I think a lot of it is: it’s not a game in the same genre, its not the next-LoK game, the character differences to what was conceived in other games (looks), just to name a few…well these were my main initial issues. I think people will either warm to the idea once they get over the ‘shock’ of the universe game (hopefully this)…or they will continue to rage…or rage and secretly play it. This rage though does show the passion people have for the series and their love for LoK…even though it's show as negative…it is kind of positive…or not…maybe I’m just trying to be over positive heh. :D

Rynfear
27th Sep 2013, 07:50
It's about the fact that a very lore-heavy, story-driven franchise that has been stalled and put on hold for so long with so many cancelled installments finally breaks the ice only to come out as a game type that is one of the least supportive of story elements.

CountEyokir
27th Sep 2013, 08:02
I agree with Rynfear. This is my biggest concern. If there isn't a deep story involving characters you get emotionally invested with, there is little to no appeal.

88chaz88
27th Sep 2013, 08:30
It's okay to feel disappointed. Like me people were hoping for a new LoK game and instead we got Nosgoth. Unlike me some LoK fans simply don't like multiplayer and therefore Nosgoth is exclusionary to them.

CountEyokir
27th Sep 2013, 09:24
Alt universe timeline as far as I'm concerned

88chaz88
27th Sep 2013, 09:31
Alt universe timeline as far as I'm concerned

Why? It fits within SR1 lore.

CountEyokir
27th Sep 2013, 09:35
Only superfluously. You could ignore the war depicted and their lore, pretend it doesn't exist and it would impact absolutely nothing. It's a bubble of lore that exists by itself. You could take it for granted or ignore with no consequence either way.

88chaz88
27th Sep 2013, 09:43
Only superfluously. You could ignore the war depicted and their lore, pretend it doesn't exist and it would impact absolutely nothing.

The war did happen though. In SR you find Dumah's fortress long crumbled and Dumah himself pinned to his throne. It's explicitly stated that humans did this. So Psyonix aren't just making it all up, the war did happen. The humans may have lost in the end or at least retreated to a single city, but not before they did some damage.

You can still ignore the game though, it's not going to unravel much story and we know how it all ends, but I don't think you need to pretend it exists in an alternate timeline as it fits within the SR1 universe.

CountEyokir
27th Sep 2013, 09:47
Again - not really. You could assume, with just as much relevance to the story, that the Vampire hunters merely took advantage of Dumah's slothfulness and got lucky. An entire war isn't necessary. Also consider - the humans went from being weak with one fortress (Raziel knew of it) - endure a war and rise of power - then go back to being weak with one fortress. You could remove the ' endure a war and rise of power' and affects nothing. The events are irrelevant

Lord_Aevum
27th Sep 2013, 09:49
Why are so many LoK fans so pissed about the style of play this game is taking? Why are so many people angry and wishing that this game wouldnt even be made? Shouldnt we just be happy there is a new LoK gaming coming out?

I will try to explain in the most clear and objective way I can, without inserting my personal opinion on Nosgoth.

People are so pissed off because the Legacy of Kain series has always historically represented unprecedentedly-high-quality storytelling in gaming. Legacy of Kain games are traditionally single-player action-adventures developed by Crystal Dynamics, which follow the hero's journey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth) model and revolve around the character of Kain. They continue to receive constant praise for their rich narrative even now. Many fans are even willing to acknowledge other flaws in the games, but are happy to overlook them by virtue of the calibre of the story.

It's been ten years since the fifth and last game was released, which ended on a tantalising cliffhanger, but encouraged "hope" for the future and a conclusion to the story. Unfortunately, this game fell short of sales projections.

In the intervening decade, the writer/director of the series left Crystal Dynamics, and when Crystal was told to begin work on the Tomb Raider franchise in 2005, almost all official word about Legacy of Kain came to a complete standstill despite continued fan interest. There was no formal announcement from anybody that the series had been shelved, and thus fans were kept fruitlessly guessing for years on end as to when the next entry might be announced. Fans petitioned for closure, wrote in letters (http://www.thelostworlds.net/2008.html), and continued to discuss the series like there was no tomorrow, but even so, to get a comment on Legacy of Kain from Eidos was tougher than drawing blood from a stone. Series game designer Kyle Mannerberg (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=74825) (RIP) and voice actor Tony Jay (http://www.1up.com/news/voice-actor-tony-jay-dies) (RIP) sadly died in the meantime, sticking more nails in the proverbial coffin.

In 2008, a fan named Mama Robotnik discovered (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341796) that a sixth, single-player game in the series was in fact greenlighted, but was cancelled by the publisher in a matter of months, before being announced. In 2013, the very same fan revealed (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=594576) that yet another attempt at continuing the series had been scrapped in 2012, after three years of work, again ostensibly due to poor sales projections. In the meantime, (very arguably) adding insult to injury, Kain and Raziel were featured in a character pack (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Lara_Croft_and_the_Guardian_of_Light) for Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light which pieced together archive dialogue from the games to create an (arguably) uncomfortable Laurel and Hardy-like comedic skit out of their characters. Despite the goodwill behind them, these tribulations exacerbated Legacy of Kain fans' endless frustration.

Now, after ten years of waiting to see what happens next, it is known that the new entry in the series is going to be a multiplayer deathmatch game featuring no Kain, no Raziel, no familiar characters, no story beats, minimal dialogue, minimal narrative, and no closure. Denis Dyack, creator of the series, once said (http://nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/PSNinterview1.htm), "when we create stories we try to model some classical models that were laid out by Shakespeare. You see, when he wrote a play he targeted his story at several levels. For the drunken commoners in the front rows he would insert dirty jokes to keep them entertained but for the aristocracy in the balconies he would write very cerebral metaphors. For Silicon Knights the gore is our dirty jokes, but for those who want more there is a real story behind Kain". It could be contended, then, that Nosgoth is almost purely about dirty jokes, whereas many people are more hungry for the cerebral aspects of the series.

This game is using assets which would have gone into the single-player project cancelled in 2012, and was in fact supposed to be its supplementary multiplayer mode. Yes, it is a new game, but it still positions fans of the narrative in a nasty catch-22 predicament. Should Nosgoth succeed, it follows logically that Square Enix, who are after all currently hemorrhaging money (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-26-tomb-raider-has-sold-3-4-million-copies-failed-to-hit-expectations) and producing fewer AAA titles in general, might feel vindicated in having scrapped the single-player side of the project and be inclined to simply greenlight more Nosgoth derivatives indefinitely. Should Nosgoth flop, Square Enix may well decide that nobody is interested in the Legacy of Kain universe any more and shelve the series for another ten years, or more. There is no confidence.

We are so, so invested in this story. That can't be emphasised enough. Lots of people would just like to see some resolution to Kain's journey after Defiance and are very, very tired of all the continuing delays, and diversions, and problems, and procrastination. Everything surrounding this game indicates that Square Enix may still not really appreciate this. In my estimation, all of this is what's coming to a head in the negative comments you've encountered.

CountEyokir
27th Sep 2013, 09:52
thank you for standing the concerns so pointedly.

88chaz88
27th Sep 2013, 10:01
Again - not really. You could assume, with just as much relevance to the story, that the Vampire hunters merely took advantage of Dumah's slothfulness and got lucky. An entire war isn't necessary.

I think that would be a bigger disregard of the lore than anything. Dumah was immensely powerful and his clan were more numerous than any other excepting maybe the Rahabim. You don't "get lucky" and manage to put him down without coming from a position of power.


Also consider - the humans went from being weak with one fortress (Raziel knew of it) - endure a war and rise of power - then go back to being weak with one fortress. You could remove the ' endure a war and rise of power' and affects nothing. The events are irrelevant

I never said they're relevant. I said:


You can still ignore the game though, it's not going to unravel much story and we know how it all ends, but I don't think you need to pretend it exists in an alternate timeline as it fits within the SR1 universe.

And I stand by it.

Edit: I notice that quoting myself put it in bold, weird.

CountEyokir
27th Sep 2013, 10:14
1) - "Failed to see an attack, coming from the least likely assailants. Complacent in their arrogance, they were taken by surprise." Unless this is the human's opening gambit in the war, Dumah would have to be pretty damn stupid to not consider a rising humanity a threat. Besides, you don't need a large force to take on superior numbers. You need careful planning, the element of surprise and a swift surgical strike - take out Dumah and his fortress and withdraw, leaving the Dumahim leaderless. If they were already in a war then they are certainly not the least likely assailants. Quite the opposite. This conjecture however is certainly not laid out in their 'lore' and thus all consideration by us is moot on the subject. Its still pretty irrelevant either way through

2) It fits but its still in its own bubble and has no consequence either way. Why consider it worth notice if there is no consequence?

3) Why should anyone invested in a war when I already know one side is reduced back to the state they were before it started and the other devolves into the monsters I pummelled into submission back on the Dreamcast?

Caiwyn
27th Sep 2013, 10:50
I would say that's spot on Lord_Aevum! Myself I've also been waiting a long time (since defiance was released) for a new Legacy of Kain game so we all can get some closure or perhaps more story. So when I heard that they have cancelled not one, but ten games... just guess how disappointed I was or still are, especially after seeing all the screens, videos and so on from Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun. And too hear that instead of LoK: Dead Sun they're going to make another hack-n-slash-farming-f2p-mmo like all the other game studios nowadays of the franchise, that's even more disappointing. I play these games for the story. But I'm going give it a try, but I'm very sure that I'll be disappointed.

Lord_Aevum
27th Sep 2013, 11:09
Well, let's be upfront about the ten cancelled games thing - it's honestly "only" two games that have been scrapped. The rest of those mentioned were just ports or completely unrelated projects which fed into the LoK series after the fact.

synesthasa
27th Sep 2013, 16:52
Lord_Aevum put it perfectly. I don't think there is another word that needs to be said on the disappointment that is felt here. At this point, it is indeed a catch 22 for fans. I don't want to wish anyone ill will, but I can easily imagine SE looking at good numbers on Nosgoth and happily green lighting a Nosgoth 2. On the other hand, if we ignore this, I can just as clearly see SE shelving it indefinitely. What I wish is that if there is nothing planned for an actual LOK game, why not just sell the license? Maybe that's naive. I would love to see this go to Naughty Dog. Amy is already there. (yup, I'm pipe-dreaming here for sure)

Ah well. The devs seem happy to have done this, so I'm happy for them. I just really don't know how to feel about this. If they would just come transparent with us and tell us what the hell is going on, it would at the least, assuage all our fears and speculations. Personally, if I knew that another LOK game was in the works, or it hinged on the success of this Nosgoth project, I would swallow my detest of multiplayer and support it (I don't even play games on PC!!!!!!) to help ensure we get another actual LOK game.

I think at the core of this, that is what they need to do. Just quite with the silent treatment and friggin talk to people. Be honest. "This is why we have/have not made another game, and this is what we're doing!" If they would at least be straight with us, LOK fans could either be elated and support this new project, or finally release all hope and move on. They need to quite being silent and be straight up with us. That, to me, would be the best action to take.

Driber
27th Sep 2013, 17:04
Edit: I notice that quoting myself put it in bold, weird.

Fixed.

NapoleonMontana
27th Sep 2013, 17:45
I am a huge Kain fan and when I saw the trailer I immediately created an account. I hope I get into the beta, game looks cool.
Will be playing human for sure

KitKhains
27th Sep 2013, 18:14
Unfortunately this kind of situation happens a lot. With the current Elder Scrolls MMO coming out or for example the new Devil May Cry. Designers tend to want to create something new, exciting, open for not just the fans, but also a new crowd that may come into the game as well. Sadly they tend to deviate from the lore in the games to really just please the crowd. Usually it does work though, tons of people bought the recent Devil May Cry, and tons of people are actively waiting for the new Elder Scrolls MMO. It has worked in the past, but you can be there will be some fans out there that just can't live with it and will forsake the game completely once it does come out and doesn't fit their standards. Nosgoth will appeal to some of the older players, may bring about new players into the game, and those who can't stand it will just drop it. I won't argue if the changes are right or wrong, but the sad truth is this happens.

LordMortanius
27th Sep 2013, 18:18
Lord Aevum and Synesthasa pretty much summed up all my posts thus far. Square PR needs to get on top of this and really come clean with fans of the series. Don't turn this into another DmC, if the fans of a game like LoK can appreciate and understand a mature complex story I'm pretty sure they are mature enough to listen and understand what you have to say. Please do not make the mistake, as most others have been doing and I REALLY wish you would stop that because you sound like you're troll-baiting, of ruling out fan disappointment as simple 'Rage' when really it is rational concern that is as immature and narrow minded as those you think you are accusing.

Rexidus
28th Sep 2013, 06:46
My biggest disappointment with the game is the people who condemn the game because of what it isn't rather than what it is. It's extremely disheartening that I've only known about this game for a few days and already I want to just put the entire forum on an ignore list.

Le_Don
28th Sep 2013, 08:50
There are already some great explanations in this thread, just one thing:

I guess people weren't that angry when the LoK series wouldn't have been abscent for 10 years and if these people weren't afraid, that this one could be the last entry in the series.

Lifeshield
28th Sep 2013, 12:53
I think all this hate for Nosgoth is unjustified. I'm in agreement with Rexidus. People are condemning the game because of what it isn't rather than what it is.

People are taking this way too seriously. All in all it's a free to play multiplayer game set in the same universe. Much like Guardians of Middle Earth or Star Wars Battlefront were.

Claribabe
29th Sep 2013, 23:40
I think all this hate for Nosgoth is unjustified. I'm in agreement with Rexidus. People are condemning the game because of what it isn't rather than what it is.

No, myself and Lord_Aevum already explained in detail why this game is a very bad sign for the series as a whole. To say this now with no explanation suggest you didn't bother to actually read the thread and thus your blind defense of the game makes you come off as some kind of viral marketer. I suggest you read what our concerns actually are before writing them off.

Bazielim
30th Sep 2013, 00:14
Whilst I see where you are coming from, that's not actually what Aevum said and I think you might have misunderstood his purpose. Aevum simply took on the thread title and gave the reasons why people were upset. He justified the negative comments. Never did he say it was a bad sign for the series, never did he slate Nosgoth and I think you might actually find he isn't that negative about it at all.;) He was merely explaining why people feel aggrieved - I think most people should be able to understand why that is, even if they disagree with how distasteful some of it has been.

Secondarily (and I only mention this because it is getting ridiculous now), but there are no viral marketers - just people who are willing to give it a chance, or have had the lore laid out, played and enjoyed it already. :D Disagreeing with someone who is saying "it's ruined" does not automatically put you on the SE payroll;)

Vanyelxp5
30th Sep 2013, 00:16
I wish it did. I bet they pay better than my current employer.

Zizeff
30th Sep 2013, 00:53
Im just glad there's some one that wants to continue with the franchise be it in a different direction can not pass judgment on a trailer.

Wraithblade6
30th Sep 2013, 06:19
If you don't know why "LoK fans" are upset, you don't know how amazing the games were.

...every single one of them.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 07:10
If you don't know why "LoK fans" are upset, you don't know how amazing the games were.

...every single one of them.

I think that's a pretty unfair statement. You can be disappointed without dissolving into a ball of rage. You can also be disappointed while also feeling hopeful for something else.

Therealrabban
30th Sep 2013, 14:52
Yep, but if you want change sometimes you gotta sound like a complete nutter!

Claribabe
30th Sep 2013, 15:11
Whilst I see where you are coming from, that's not actually what Aevum said and I think you might have misunderstood his purpose. Aevum simply took on the thread title and gave the reasons why people were upset. He justified the negative comments. Never did he say it was a bad sign for the series, never did he slate Nosgoth and I think you might actually find he isn't that negative about it at all.;) He was merely explaining why people feel aggrieved - I think most people should be able to understand why that is, even if they disagree with how distasteful some of it has been.

Secondarily (and I only mention this because it is getting ridiculous now), but there are no viral marketers - just people who are willing to give it a chance, or have had the lore laid out, played and enjoyed it already. :D Disagreeing with someone who is saying "it's ruined" does not automatically put you on the SE payroll;)

Regardless he explained why it's seen as a bad sign as I explain why it is a bad sign. My point still stands that anyone writing that off as just personal bias is grossly unfair.

And I did not say he was a viral marketer, I said he was acting like one blindly defending a game from criticism he hasn't ever read. "There are no viral marketers" is quite the misconception, but they mostly stick to Neogaf, Reddit, and 4Chan.

Vanyelxp5
30th Sep 2013, 15:21
What is a bad sign and what is a good sign, both are extremely subjective.

I choose to see this game being made, even in the form that it is in now, as a good sign, because they are using something that was developed for another game as an addon to create an entire game.

In addition, seeing this game succeed could be the justification they need to take the risk of making a single player sequel to the beloved storyline.

Though honestly? If they made a kickstarter page for a new single player LoK game, they'd see a long line of fans gathering to say in unison "Shut up and take my money!" So I think they should do that instead... Or as well as this, because I think this game will be fun.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 15:24
Though honestly? If they made a kickstarter page for a new single player LoK game, they'd see a long line of fans gathering to say in unison "Shut up and take my money!" So I think they should do that instead... Or as well as this, because I think this game will be fun.

They should! I would spend the last penny in my name for a new one, and probably a little more.

Driber
30th Sep 2013, 15:34
Yep, but if you want change sometimes you gotta sound like a complete nutter!

If you want change it's better to state your case in a mature and eloquent way.


Regardless he explained why it's seen as a bad sign as I explain why it is a bad sign. My point still stands that anyone writing that off as just personal bias is grossly unfair.

And I did not say he was a viral marketer, I said he was acting like one blindly defending a game from criticism he hasn't ever read. "There are no viral marketers" is quite the misconception, but they mostly stick to Neogaf, Reddit, and 4Chan.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with "personal bias", as fans of a franchise will nearly always interject their own personal bias. It's something you can't really expect to disappear from those who are passionate about a franchise.

That said, there is no denying that what Rexidus said (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7226&p=67190#post67190) makes perfect sense. Everyone wanted a classic LOK game and after 10 years a game in a completely different genre is announced. It's very common that people first focus on their disappointment of not getting what they wanted all those years and that that makes them (unfairly, prematurely) criticize the new game and indeed criticize it for what it isn't instead of looking at it objectively.

As for viral marketers - that's just paranoia. It was officially stated that there are none. Any claims that there are is just mere speculation / cynicism.

Edit: Speaking as admin for a moment, I strongly urge you do not make such claims again towards our members in the future, it is not appreciated.

Reidbynature
30th Sep 2013, 18:58
If you want change it's better to state your case in a mature and eloquent way.

Ugh. This so much. Just got done with the twitch chat. Let me spell it out for anyone who thinks crying and throwing tantrums gets you your way. You don't accomplish anything. Instead you just turn most people off to what you want to say.

Driber
30th Sep 2013, 19:27
Sounds like I was lucky for not being able to be there during the live stream :p

Bazielim
30th Sep 2013, 20:20
hehe. Yes it was V bad with the amount of bad behaviour, spamming and outright sock puppetry going on there from people - those sort of things are the only 'viral' tactics I've seen so far.
Tempted to ask for some mods for next time;)

Reidbynature
30th Sep 2013, 20:51
Sounds like I was lucky for not being able to be there during the live stream :p

Yeah. lol

Though I would maybe suggest that if you, Umah or Hylden can't sit in alongside Monkeythumbz on any other potential live chat that maybe you guys should revise the 'no banning' rule. I guess you guys want to appear sensitive and open and welcoming to everyone, but there was a reason they decided to leave the chat itself and just take questions from elsewhere generally. Just a thought.

Claribabe
30th Sep 2013, 22:35
there is no denying that what Rexidus said (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7226&p=67190#post67190) makes perfect sense. Everyone wanted a classic LOK game and after 10 years a game in a completely different genre is announced. It's very common that people first focus on their disappointment of not getting what they wanted all those years and that that makes them (unfairly, prematurely) criticize the new game and indeed criticize it for what it isn't instead of looking at it objectively.

As for viral marketers - that's just paranoia. It was officially stated that there are none. Any claims that there are is just mere speculation / cynicism.

Edit: Speaking as admin for a moment, I strongly urge you do not make such claims again towards our members in the future, it is not appreciated.

There absolutely is denying what he said as people have explained why they feel negative about the game. His claim is completely baseless.

There's an entire market of gamers that traditional advertizing can't target. Very few gamers I know will be swayed to purchase a game because of a commercial of other similar advertizements. They're too experienced for that, they know better and instead do a lot of research looking up gameplay videos, and seeing what the consensus is among groups they trust. Viral marketing is a means of targeting that market at virtually no cost to the company compared to traditional marketing. And yes, during the Dragon Age 2 debacle, post praising the game and writing off it's criticism were traced back to people who worked at bioware. It is a very real thing and it's very naive to just accept a company's word in the face of logic. I'm not saying Squeenix uses viral marketers, but it would be silly not to.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 23:28
There absolutely is denying what he said as people have explained why they feel negative about the game. His claim is completely baseless.

There's an entire market of gamers that traditional advertizing can't target. Very few gamers I know will be swayed to purchase a game because of a commercial of other similar advertizements. They're too experienced for that, they know better and instead do a lot of research looking up gameplay videos, and seeing what the consensus is among groups they trust. Viral marketing is a means of targeting that market at virtually no cost to the company compared to traditional marketing. And yes, during the Dragon Age 2 debacle, post praising the game and writing off it's criticism were traced back to people who worked at bioware. It is a very real thing and it's very naive to just accept a company's word in the face of logic. I'm not saying Squeenix uses viral marketers, but it would be silly not to.

At the same time, a lot the people I've seen being accused of being viral marketers are praising the game as much as they're critical about it. (That's the people I've seen though, so if you know of someone on the forum who's all butterflies and sunshine about it, with nary a single complaint, feel free to disregard this, I suppose.)

Driber
1st Oct 2013, 10:31
There absolutely is denying what he said as people have explained why they feel negative about the game. His claim is completely baseless.

I disagree. This sort of thing happens almost universally with every franchise that suddenly announces a new installment in a completely different genre. A lot of hardcore fans crucify the new game for what it isn't instead of what it is.

I'm not saying everyone does, nor do I think that is what Rexidus meant, but to deny that this is happening is to deny logic and human nature. People hate change. I often do, too.


There's an entire market of gamers that traditional advertizing can't target. Very few gamers I know will be swayed to purchase a game because of a commercial of other similar advertizements. They're too experienced for that, they know better and instead do a lot of research looking up gameplay videos, and seeing what the consensus is among groups they trust. Viral marketing is a means of targeting that market at virtually no cost to the company compared to traditional marketing. And yes, during the Dragon Age 2 debacle, post praising the game and writing off it's criticism were traced back to people who worked at bioware. It is a very real thing and it's very naive to just accept a company's word in the face of logic. I'm not saying Squeenix uses viral marketers, but it would be silly not to.

Your theory went out of the window the moment you used another company to "prove" that the same is happening here. The fact that it happened elsewhere provides absolutely no weight on paranoid conspiracy theories, for they are... paranoid conspiracy theories.

As for gamers not being persuaded/influenced by commercials - that's the most illogical argument I've ever heard. Of course commercials are going to persuade or in the very least influence potential buyers. To deny this is akin to saying that the world's advertising business is all a sham and that companies who advertise lose 100% of their investment :nut:


At the same time, a lot the people I've seen being accused of being viral marketers are praising the game as much as they're critical about it. (That's the people I've seen though, so if you know of someone on the forum who's all butterflies and sunshine about it, with nary a single complaint, feel free to disregard this, I suppose.)

There is no need to disregard that even IF there are members who haven't voiced a single complaint yet. Why, you ask....?


The forum is but a few days old.

The game hasn't been released yet.

There is such a thing called new fans.

88chaz88
1st Oct 2013, 11:12
Perhaps I'm not posting enough, but I'm waiting for the moment when someone claims that I'm a Square-Enix employee.

Driber
1st Oct 2013, 11:28
^ Don't give yourself way, damnit!

Now you won't get that paycheck :mad:

LifeSnatcher
1st Oct 2013, 11:57
1st of all, every game with a story behind will have people like this, attention *****, QQ hard core fans, but we are talking about a game that was released more than 15 years ago. I understand players are bored but we don't rly need a "let's rage about a game older then moms that we see on MTV".
I played all Legacy of Kain games, they were awesome, brilliant story and a top action game, but when i think at Nosgoth i see myself as a vampire eating a human, or a human burning some vampires ... nothing more, nothing less.
I'm sure there are some new things that we will see only when we will play the game, but that is for us to discover.
Legacy of Kain was and will remain an awesome game, but that's all, lets leave it in the past where it belongs.


Sry for my bad english...

Driber
1st Oct 2013, 19:00
Yeah. lol

Though I would maybe suggest that if you, Umah or Hylden can't sit in alongside Monkeythumbz on any other potential live chat that maybe you guys should revise the 'no banning' rule. I guess you guys want to appear sensitive and open and welcoming to everyone, but there was a reason they decided to leave the chat itself and just take questions from elsewhere generally. Just a thought.

We'll get a few chat mods set up if there will be another live chat session to keep the trolls out :)

Reidbynature
1st Oct 2013, 20:06
That's good to hear, Driber. Thanks.

Rexidus
1st Oct 2013, 20:10
For the record, no I'm not a viral marketer. I actually agree with most of the complaints. I just disagree with the venom in which they are delivered. Make your case in a mature fashion and move on. I voiced my desire for a detailed character creator and noncombat areas but I won't throw a childish tantrum if they aren't included.

Driber
1st Oct 2013, 20:46
BINGO!

Lifeshield
1st Oct 2013, 20:47
No, myself and Lord_Aevum already explained in detail why this game is a very bad sign for the series as a whole. To say this now with no explanation suggest you didn't bother to actually read the thread and thus your blind defense of the game makes you come off as some kind of viral marketer. I suggest you read what our concerns actually are before writing them off.

FIrst: I am not a viral marketer. You can find me around the web IGN, OCN, Steam, Warframe, Battlenet, etc, under the same username (Lifeshield). a few other places like Skyrim Nexus, Xbox Live, ENBseries, etc under the username Unreal Warfare. Feel free to look me up and say hi. You'll find I am quite genuinely a gamer, just like you.

Maybe I should throw an insult at you or something, seems you want to label me and all, maybe that will show you I am just a normal user like anyone else here? Or is just being civil, being in disagreement, and having my own opinion, not acceptable? What is it? The low post count mean I cannot have an opinion without being deemed to act like a marketer? What an absurd thing to say. Honestly. I genuinely find that offensive and unwelcoming. What a great introduction to the Nosgoth community.

Second: I have read some users concerns. That doesn't change my "general opinion" in agreement with another user that people are taking this way too seriously and judging the game for what it isn't than what it is. Because a lot of people just are. Neither am I blindly defending the game. I haven't actually written off any concerns seems I didn't actually mention anything about them in my post. I just think people are, in general, too quick to judge it because it isn't what they want it to be, and the backlash is far too vile. A general opinion, not a specific one.

I swear it's worse than mentioning something anti lore on the Halo forums, and that is saying something.

The_Hylden
1st Oct 2013, 21:07
Ok, people, there's no need to preface anything you're stating with "First, I am not a viral marketer." That's for the couple of posts mimicking the above. I understand the need to stand up for yourself,
Lifeshield, and I do think in this case you're justified here.

We have dealt with the issue, so with the above, let's everyone please let this issue die. Thanks.

mrslig100
2nd Oct 2013, 12:01
U wanna know WHY people have such controversial opinions about this game?
Thats yer answer
http://s18.postimg.org/5a8k3i0u1/Animorphs.jpg

Reidbynature
2nd Oct 2013, 20:47
Cute meme, but hard to take as a serious point.

fatihy35
7th Oct 2013, 08:17
Pls stop opening threads with "I don't understand a lot of this hate?" questions.... This is a kind of provocation for me. <If i have to give this info; I am 31 yrs old. I am grown-up enough to know what i am talking about. Am i so emotional and passionate about it? -Yes!>
People, just support this project and let them earn much much more money as they expect and let them shut their mouths and make our new game of the series. The game world have started to disqusting me. This unjustice, recklessness is an agony inside of me but i do not care now what is this Nosgoth game. I m gonna support it; not for SE or any other names... Just for my game. It is better u to do it, too. A bit more patience for our dreams. Do not expect them to understand this because they won't. So, we just, will take our responsibility for what we are dreaming of....

Driber
7th Oct 2013, 09:53
I don't see threads like these as a "provocation", fatihy35. Some people genuinely do not understand some people's reactions. It's one thing to be passionate, but trolling, actual hate, and even death threats towards the devs over a videogame is something many cannot wrap their heads around.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 12:12
I don't see threads like these as a "provocation", fatihy35. Some people genuinely do not understand some people's reactions. It's one thing to be passionate, but trolling, actual hate, and even death threats towards the devs over a videogame is something many cannot wrap their heads around.

There has been DEATH THREATS? This guys are nuts.

Paradoks_db
7th Oct 2013, 14:03
All I can add is a poorly-designed infographic:
[...]

I think that this picture needs correcting. I mean "Deep story" and "Memorable characters" in BO2 column (the Pillars are also debatable because they were only seen in a dream sequence).

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 14:12
I think that this picture needs correcting. I mean "Deep story" and "Memorable characters" in BO2 column (the Pillars are also debatable because they were only seen in a dream sequence).

Yeah, but that were reference on them. But anyway, even thought it is not the game we wanted or expected, I think it deserves a chance, no doubt. I looks pretty fun to play our LoK with our friends for the first time, being someone that you would actually be in a land like that (Let's agree nobody here would be Lieutenants or Kain himself, shall we? xD)

Driber
7th Oct 2013, 14:47
There has been DEATH THREATS? This guys are nuts.

It's insanity. Sad thing is, it didn't surprise me anymore. This kind of thing has been going on for years on the internet and it's getting worse every year. Some corners of the web have turned into hate machines and some people do not know where to draw the line between constructively complaining about something and being a psychopath.

Celebrities are cancelling their Twitter accounts due the enormous waves of hate and aggression they receive for doing things that 99% of the population do or would do, themselves.

The web brings out both the best and the worst in people :(

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 14:56
It's insanity. Sad thing is, it didn't surprise me anymore. This kind of thing has been going on for years on the internet and it's getting worse every year. Some corners of the web have turned into hate machines and some people do not know where to draw the line between constructively complaining about something and being a psychopath.

Celebrities are cancelling their Twitter accounts due the enormous waves of hate and aggression they receive for doing things that 99% of the population do or would do, themselves.

The web brings out both the best and the worst in people :(

It is really sad, actually. But I would like to compliment all of you for ignoring that people and making us this cool new title =D ok, was not what we were expecting to see, but it is really nice =D I can't wait to play it xD

CountEyokir
7th Oct 2013, 15:05
I actually wasn't going to come back to these forums after I learned all I wanted to know about the game and my suspicions about the worst of it confirmed. This will be my last major post so any responses will probably not given. Feel free to debate when I'm gone.
I however can not tolerate the idea put about here that largely the people who dislike the mere idea and premise of this game are life threatening trolls to be ignored. I can assure you that would be a very large percentage of the fan base. Everywhere I go outside of these specific forums I see that the majority opinion is negative on this game, with perhaps those willing to try it at around 20-30%. This is simply a fact and this is not just because its not the single play we were all hoping for. Those who play a lot of MOBA games have repeatedly stated this looks bad even for that genre. I have not played any myself so I leave it up to the individual to judge on that basis.

If I were to sum up the actual points of negativity for the critics of this game, it goes as such.

The gameplay to be shallow and unable to hold much interest - the graphics to be dated - that it abandons the very tradition and core of what the series great - the lore to be thin and based on what people didn't say rather then what they did -(and lets face it we've seen - "the Razielim survive" in many a fanfic) - the models, animations, textures and possibly even entire maps to be right out of Dead Sun - the idea of this generating a new single player to be laughable - that there's are so many different MOBA's that hog the market that this will get torn apart by the competition - that this is yet another attempt by Square-Enix to milk an IP, especially here as reusing Dead Sun materials so thickly - to cover what they lost developing Dead Sun for so long before cancellation.

There, I think that about covers at least what I see as the major points of contention. I bid you good luck with your game, I honestly hope you enjoy yourselves.

Paradoks_db
7th Oct 2013, 15:24
I however can not tolerate the idea put about here that largely the people who dislike the mere idea and premise of this game are life threatening trolls to be ignored. I can assure you that would be a very large percentage of the fan base.
I don't think anyone was really making that point. It is however a fact that many people are criticising this game while acting uncivil and not providing any arguments. Constructive criticism is welcome.

CountEyokir
7th Oct 2013, 15:28
Its hard to be constructive when its seen that this game is little more a low budget, low risk bone thrown at us. Most people, if they had a bone thrown at them would not give advice on how to make the bone better, they would prefer the beat the person who threw the bone at them over the head with it until they stopped moving. But I hope I've been able to make the position clear. I will probably not be coming back after this. I just caught this reply before heading off. Enjoy your game, once again

Driber
7th Oct 2013, 15:36
I actually wasn't going to come back to these forums after I learned all I wanted to know about the game and my suspicions about the worst of it confirmed. This will be my last major post so any responses will probably not given. Feel free to debate when I'm gone.
I however can not tolerate the idea put about here that largely the people who dislike the mere idea and premise of this game are life threatening trolls to be ignored.

When did anyone ever say such a thing? I'm pretty sure you must be wrong about that. If not, please link me to the post so that I can verify your claim.


If I were to sum up the actual points of negativity for the critics of this game, it goes as such.

The gameplay to be shallow and unable to hold much interest - the graphics to be dated - that it abandons the very tradition and core of what the series great - the lore to be thin and based on what people didn't say rather then what they did -(and lets face it we've seen - "the Razielim survive" in many a fanfic) - the models, animations, textures and possibly even entire maps to be right out of Dead Sun - the idea of this generating a new single player to be laughable - that there's are so many different MOBA's that hog the market that this will get torn apart by the competition - that this is yet another attempt by Square-Enix to milk an IP, especially here as reusing Dead Sun materials so thickly - to cover what they lost developing Dead Sun for so long before cancellation.

You are not saying that you speak on behalf of 70-80% of fans who think exactly like this, do you?

Sure, I've heard these sentiments, too. But I don't believe each and every point you just listed is shared by everyone who is currently against the game.

I think the reality is far more nuanced than that.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 15:40
Its hard to be constructive when its seen that this game is little more a low budget, low risk bone thrown at us. Most people, if they had a bone thrown at them would not give advice on how to make the bone better, they would prefer the beat the person who threw the bone at them over the head with it until they stopped moving. But I hope I've been able to make the position clear. I will probably not be coming back after this. I just caught this reply before heading off. Enjoy your game, once again

Thank you, and I hope you enjoy RL =P (no mocking, just respectful goodbyes for a guy who had good arguments about his position... You were the best anti-nosgoth in the forum, mate.)

Paradoks_db
7th Oct 2013, 15:48
Its hard to be constructive when its seen that this game is little more a low budget, low risk bone thrown at us.
You may not be reading this but I'll give my answer anyway. It may not be easy but it's the only way. Sure, it will probably not help that much but it is the only valid method of voicing one's displeasure.
I'm not interested in playing Nosgoth, but LoK is my favourite franchise and that's why I'm here. Because despite its flawed nature I want the game to be a worthy addition to the series. Right now I don't see that happening but at least I won't be blaming myself for not trying to improve it.

CountEyokir
7th Oct 2013, 16:00
Seriously THIS is my last post now. I just felt I had to come back one last time to put some things in given the responses

Driber- poor choice of language on my part for which I am sorry. What I meant was I didn't want people to get the impression this is what the critics were

ZeroFernir - Aww that's lovely of you to say. I just hope someone can keep you all looking at Nosgoth's efforts with a more critical, cynical and sceptical eye - Watch them!

Paradoks - I respect your opinion and your choice of tactics. I wish you all the luck in the world

Ok seriously, I'm gone. lol bye bye

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 19:58
ZeroFernir - Aww that's lovely of you to say. I just hope someone can keep you all looking at Nosgoth's efforts with a more critical, cynical and sceptical eye - Watch them!

Ehn, I don't think so =P I have critical eyes too, but they just decided that I would support the game =D

Driber
10th Oct 2013, 17:26
Driber- poor choice of language on my part for which I am sorry. What I meant was I didn't want people to get the impression this is what the critics were

I can't speak for others, but I certainly don't think that all critics are "life threatening trolls to be ignored."

I've seen plenty of people providing constructive criticism written in a civil manner.

Psyonix_Eric
10th Oct 2013, 19:19
If I were to sum up the actual points of negativity for the critics of this game, it goes as such.

The gameplay to be shallow and unable to hold much interest - the graphics to be dated - that it abandons the very tradition and core of what the series great - the lore to be thin and based on what people didn't say rather then what they did -(and lets face it we've seen - "the Razielim survive" in many a fanfic) - the models, animations, textures and possibly even entire maps to be right out of Dead Sun - the idea of this generating a new single player to be laughable - that there's are so many different MOBA's that hog the market that this will get torn apart by the competition - that this is yet another attempt by Square-Enix to milk an IP, especially here as reusing Dead Sun materials so thickly - to cover what they lost developing Dead Sun for so long before cancellation.
While I can't comment on every part of this, I can at least comment on the art side of things as that's my place in all of this. I think people need to keep in mind that the majority of the feedback for the game so far as been from people who haven't played it but may just be upset that it's not the LoK game they wanted. From my understanding, the few reviews of it from people who were at the community event seemed rather positive, and that's from die-hard LoK fans. But to the comments:

- I wouldn't say the graphics are dated, though given that we're trying to reach a broad audience with the game it's not going to be using the latest bleeding edge graphics tech at launch. We've got plenty of pretty shiny things in there like motion blur, bloom, etc, and all of our stuff is using similar techniques that you'd find in Uncharted. People may want to wait until some proper screenshots are released before crying wolf here.

- Models, animations, textures, and entire maps are most certainly not right out of Dead Sun. The few things we were able to share between their game and ours are things you wouldn't notice unless you really went looking, such as grass textures, some trees, and a few small props (vases). Otherwise we've got a team here that has made everything else from scratch. It certainly looks a lot like Dead Sun and that's because we originally were in development alongside them and that was the intention. For a time, they shared some of our original assets as well.

I'm always confused by the hatred over the idea of us using a few of the Dead Sun assets. People seemed to love the idea of Dead Sun, so I would have thought it would have been a good thing for us to not waste development time remaking grass and trees. To each their own, but I can promise you that like it or not, our game is not merely a regurgitation of DS assets. I've worked too many weekends to concede to that :p

Magicaltophat
10th Oct 2013, 21:18
I can understand the knee-jerk reaction some fans have had to the game, especially after everything that came out regarding the canned LoK games, and the fact that we (as a fanbase) weren't expecting a multiplayer game to be what came out under any sort of banner for Legacy of Kain. That said, I'm not really opposed to the idea. I've seen the same sort of thing happen among Lufia fans. We get two games for the SNES, one for the GBC and then one for the GBA. When the DS game came out? People were pretty livid about all the changes. There's gonna be resistance to change in all forms to things people really care about, but sometimes it can be for the better!

I guess the long and short of it is regardless in what form it comes, I'm happy to see the LoK universe get some lovin' again.

ZeroFernir
11th Oct 2013, 00:19
While I can't comment on every part of this, I can at least comment on the art side of things as that's my place in all of this. I think people need to keep in mind that the majority of the feedback for the game so far as been from people who haven't played it but may just be upset that it's not the LoK game they wanted. From my understanding, the few reviews of it from people who were at the community event seemed rather positive, and that's from die-hard LoK fans. But to the comments:

- I wouldn't say the graphics are dated, though given that we're trying to reach a broad audience with the game it's not going to be using the latest bleeding edge graphics tech at launch. We've got plenty of pretty shiny things in there like motion blur, bloom, etc, and all of our stuff is using similar techniques that you'd find in Uncharted. People may want to wait until some proper screenshots are released before crying wolf here.

- Models, animations, textures, and entire maps are most certainly not right out of Dead Sun. The few things we were able to share between their game and ours are things you wouldn't notice unless you really went looking, such as grass textures, some trees, and a few small props (vases). Otherwise we've got a team here that has made everything else from scratch. It certainly looks a lot like Dead Sun and that's because we originally were in development alongside them and that was the intention. For a time, they shared some of our original assets as well.

I'm always confused by the hatred over the idea of us using a few of the Dead Sun assets. People seemed to love the idea of Dead Sun, so I would have thought it would have been a good thing for us to not waste development time remaking grass and trees. To each their own, but I can promise you that like it or not, our game is not merely a regurgitation of DS assets. I've worked too many weekends to concede to that :p

The graphics seems pretty good to me! Come on guys, we played SR1, and we though it had great graphics =P Anything would be cool right now. The only things are the few changes that long time fans like me would like to see, as Turelim ears, 3-claws vampires and a most "human" Razielim, with wings coming from the spine. I think you can reach that with skins, so I am not worried.