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View Full Version : No complaining here Just constructive ideas of what we would like IN NOSGOTH



SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 20:47
Ok so everything aside that we have already discussed, i was hoping we could get a thread going to see what we would all really like to see in Nosgoth or, at least get some ideas out to guys making the game, apart from anything else that is what the idea is of having the game community interactive so what would we all like?

Me personally im gonna go with being able to really customize the characters, we dont want to be playing with the same three looks all the time, a little bit of a change is always good, especially when you know that you've put your own personal touch on the character it just feels a little bit better i feel, but that's just me.

I also think it would be pretty cool if we could get a quick view of the environments before the "match " starts, y;know like a 2 minute countdown just to take things in for a moment before things get frantic! me myself i could look through Nosgoth's vistas and locations all day.

If we are not going to have cut scenes then i think it would be really cool if the dark chronicle was heavily featured in the menu or something so e can have a real in depth read into the era that we have been presented with and whats going on, mention of perhaps where the other clans are and what they are doing, maybe waging war on another front perhaps? Unwilling to commit forces to this battle? who knows. Also add to that the ability to read through the established history up to this point (in the game world )

Brief mentions of Kain, just mentioning his lingering absence etc

There are probably a good few more w could all think to suggest so what do the rest of us think?

and again feel free to throw your opinions out there but im just really interested in suggestions on ideas we could ask for in the game or just food for thought

:group_hug:

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 20:59
I guess I would like to have more classes. 3 on each team seems at the moment a little bit low, but well, I'm not sure how Nosgoth will and should be played, like 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4 or what? I guess if they really want to create a tactical, great competitive game there has to be more choices.

Beside that I really hope it won't be a dull team deathmatch. In a game with teams I want something more, like capture the flag or capture points - anything to play as a team.

I played Team Fortress 2 for many years, which became something of a benchmark for team shooters for me and even Nosgoth would have to mess with this title. So if Nosgoth wants really to appeal to me, it must succed in this comparison and that means it needs many tactical components between me and my team and the classes, but at the moments I don't see that with only 3 classes.

WrecktalDefiler
26th Sep 2013, 21:05
Two features that I found pretty cool that Dota 2 utilizes

- Dynamic voice interactions between characters that automatically occur.... like when you run past your team mate or kill an enemy
- A purely cosmetic animation where your character shows signs of poor health as opposed to full health. I.E. ( blood hemorrhaging from their body or a character holding his/her side as they run)

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:05
I guess I would like to have more classes. 3 on each team seems at the moment a little bit low, but well, I'm not sure how Nosgoth will and should be played, like 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4 or what? I guess if they really want to create a tactical, great competitive game there has to be more choices.

Beside that I really hope it won't be a dull team deathmatch. In a game with teams I want something more, like capture the flag or capture points - anything to play as a team.

I played Team Fortress 2 for many years, which became something of a benchmark for team shooters for me and even Nosgoth would have to mess with this title. So if Nosgoth wants really to appeal to me, it must succed in this comparison and that means it needs many tactical components between me and my team and the classes, but at the moments I don't see that with only 3 classes.

I agree with you there, three classes on each side does seem little bit limited so like yourself i am hoping that it will be expanded, there are still another three clans that can be added so thats something at least to look forward to maybe. Also i know what you mean about wanting more than just a death match. Ive never really played much of them before so i cant really judge too much but what i do know is that variety is key. Maybe getting a good description up of what you think would work well would be a good way to go? describe out in detail what you think would work best?

nerothehero2
26th Sep 2013, 21:07
lol i would love a melee class for the humans

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:07
Two features that I found pretty cool that Dota 2 utilizes

- Dynamic voice interactions between characters that automatically occur.... like when you run past your team mate or kill an enemy
- A purely cosmetic animation where your character shows signs of poor health as opposed to full health. I.E. ( blood hemorrhaging from their body or a character holding his/her side as they run)

I really like the sound of that, it gives and increased feeling of realism to the characters that always makes for a more interesting experience. Maybe as the vampires heal they could still have a slight mark like they still have to fully heal off of the battlefield? make it seem like they are actually involved in battle and will return to ranks or something?

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:09
lol i would love a melee class for the humans
would that work though? being as that a human melee class might not be able to stand up to the three vampire classes? or do you mean like the big mercenary's in defiance?

Lord_Aevum
26th Sep 2013, 21:11
I'd especially like to see the Spectral Realm worked into gameplay (maybe using Dead Sun assets) if it can possibly be integrated in a story-friendly way, and for Simon Templeman or at least another member of the LoK voice cast to have some kind of a role.

Limed00d
26th Sep 2013, 21:13
On the topic of cutscenes, one thing I would love is a short video for some of the lore-heavy maps that will be featured in the game, explaining what that place is, its history, its current state etc etc
Everything narrated by a guy with a deep voice (Simon Simon Simon Simon)


Two features that I found pretty cool that Dota 2 utilizes

- Dynamic voice interactions between characters that automatically occur.... like when you run past your team mate or kill an enemy
- A purely cosmetic animation where your character shows signs of poor health as opposed to full health. I.E. ( blood hemorrhaging from their body or a character holding his/her side as they run)

+1

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:15
I'd especially like to see the Spectral Realm worked into gameplay (maybe using Dead Sun assets) if it can possibly be integrated in a story-friendly way, and for Simon Templeman or at least another member of the LoK voice cast to have some kind of a role.

Spectral realm would be amazing to see but its how would it be properly worked into the game without it just being randomly thrown in there as that will no doubt have people getting quite mad. But maybe we could just see a glimpse of it somehow where the characters dont actually visit? I myself tweeted Simon several months ago asking if he was in nosgoth before it was officially announced, he didnt say he was in it but that he really loved playing Kain , that's not a direct quote though as i cant remember it off the top of my head

nerothehero2
26th Sep 2013, 21:16
would that work though? being as that a human melee class might not be able to stand up to the three vampire classes? or do you mean like the big mercenary's in defiance?
like the mercenaries

Lord_Aevum
26th Sep 2013, 21:17
I'm thinking shifting to Spectral could be something open only to Necromancer and Melchahim classes, for instance.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:19
yeah i could see it working to an extent, big and bulky like the Turelim in the game and those mercs could fair leap with a little enchantment i think it was. That might well end up as a great addition.

Vampmaster
26th Sep 2013, 21:19
The two minute preview before a match wouldn't work, because some players would get impatient. Being able to the the camera around levels before even searching for a match might be a nice novelty to be added once more important things are out of the way.

I'd like to see some unlockable story snippets between matches as well. It could be the dark chronicle or it could new stories that take place during the war the game is set in or any era really. It could even be backstories for the different characters and places that you can unlock as you level up. Whichever way it's presented, it should have something for new and old fans and it should have pictures.

I've made it sound too complicated now, haven't I? Anyway, unlockable story snippets seem like a fun reward for accomplishing things in the game and would be cheaper than cutscenes.

EDIT: The above was in response to SireofVorador's original post. I'd also like to see the uniforms from the SR1 intro, Dark Eden, Turelim Territory, Unsilenced Cathedral, Kain's Mountain Retreat and The Human Citadel. Probably won't get all of those, but I've tried to prioritize.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:20
I'm thinking shifting to Spectral could be something open only to Necromancer and Melchahim classes, for instance.

The Melchiam class i think would work it in brilliantly perhaps as like a quick teleport away where they loose their body then move slowly through spectral to where a corpse was to inhabit. would look cool too

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:22
On the topic of cutscenes, one thing I would love is a short video for some of the lore-heavy maps that will be featured in the game, explaining what that place is, its history, its current state etc etc
Everything narrated by a guy with a deep voice (Simon Simon Simon Simon)


+1


Now that is something i think we should all push for! As it would add a wonderful touch of continuity

Vampmaster
26th Sep 2013, 21:26
Now that is something i think we should all push for! As it would add a wonderful touch of continuity

While I would like to see that, it doesn't sound like Nosgoth would have the budget for lots of cutscenes.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:30
While I would like to see that, it doesn't sound like Nosgoth would have the budget for lots of cutscenes.

what about just doing them like the character completion movies in Mortal Kombat or Injustice those could work though

WrecktalDefiler
26th Sep 2013, 21:31
I agree with you there, three classes on each side does seem little bit limited so like yourself i am hoping that it will be expanded, there are still another three clans that can be added so thats something at least to look forward to maybe. Also i know what you mean about wanting more than just a death match. Ive never really played much of them before so i cant really judge too much but what i do know is that variety is key. Maybe getting a good description up of what you think would work well would be a good way to go? describe out in detail what you think would work best?

The scenario objectives could be WoW battleground influenced, obviously with the flair of this game... I could foresee a scenario where the vampires objective is to slaughter the women and children of a village and the humans have to defend it for a certain amount of time until the sun was to come out.. or something of that nature

Limed00d
26th Sep 2013, 21:34
While I would like to see that, it doesn't sound like Nosgoth would have the budget for lots of cutscenes.

I meant just a couple of pan shots here and there while a narrator talks about the lore of the map.
Like for example if the Lake of Dead were to be a map, it would be something like this;
"(camera fades in to show the mid of the abyss) blah blah once a lush lake (camera zooms out of the lake) blah blah fledglings and traitors (shows the entire map from a bird perspective) blah blah thrown down blah blah one of Kain's lieutenants thrown down blah blah and now is a hotspot for the human/vampire war blah blah."

Vampmaster
26th Sep 2013, 21:34
what about just doing them like the character completion movies in Mortal Kombat or Injustice those could work though

I guess we'll just have to see. I hope they can fit some kind of story into the game.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:34
The scenario objectives could be WoW battleground influenced, obviously with the flair of this game... I could foresee a scenario where the vampires objective is to slaughter the women and children of a village and the humans have to defend it for a certain amount of time until the sun was to come out.. or something of that nature

Yeah i could totally see that working! maybe even capturing them and having to get them back to a point almost like a capture the flag or something, as the vampires would need a food source, after all no army marches on an empty stomach lol

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 21:43
I meant just a couple of pan shots here and there while a narrator talks about the lore of the map.
Like for example if the Lake of Dead were to be a map, it would be something like this;
"(camera fades in to show the mid of the abyss) blah blah once a lush lake (camera zooms out of the lake) blah blah fledglings and traitors (shows the entire map from a bird perspective) blah blah thrown down blah blah one of Kain's lieutenants thrown down blah blah and now is a hotspot for the human/vampire war blah blah."

I could completely see this working as a very good way to give new arrivals to the series a great little bit of the lore, as well as being great for us fans

ZeroFernir
26th Sep 2013, 21:57
I am a bit apreensive with the whole flight mechanic and the ranged x melee balance, but I think they'll do it O.K. The thing I would like at most to see in this game is surelly a sarafan character, and the other vampire clans too... That would be magnific! also, I would love some traditional cenarios becoming arenas, as the pillars, the Vampire Citadel and Vorador's Mansion.

TonyRex
26th Sep 2013, 22:00
I would love to have a 5v5 gameplay and 2-3 more classes for variety. For ex- human factions can set up traps. You can have a vampire which can sense these traps and dodge them and stuff.
Also a map would be pretty useful. I would not want players to get lost while playing.
+1 for capture the flag.
It would be pretty good if they add a last man standing mode where you are own your own, no allies, every one is the enemy, both vampires and humans. It would bring back the classic Unreal tournament feel to it.

Edit: Also it would be good if you have a 1v1 fight in an arena.
I don't know if the game will be based on matchmaking or not. But if it is based on matchmaking, then I would hope for some decent matchmaking.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 22:09
I would love to have a 5v5 gameplay and 2-3 more classes for variety. For ex- human factions can set up traps. You can have a vampire which can sense these traps and dodge them and stuff.
Also a map would be pretty useful. I would not want players to get lost while playing.
+1 for capture the flag.
It would be pretty good if they add a last man standing mode where you are own your own, no allies, every one is the enemy, both vampires and humans. It would bring back the classic Unreal tournament feel to it.

Edit: Also it would be good if you have a 1v1 fight in an arena.
I don't know if the game will be based on matchmaking or not. But if it is based on matchmaking, then I would hope for some decent matchmaking.

Sounds pretty good to me but wouldn't 5v5 maybe be a bit "busy" if you know what i mean, although maybe the maps will be more than big enough to accommodate that? 1v1 wouldn't really appeal to me too much personally, but im sure there would be people who would be interested in that.

TonyRex
26th Sep 2013, 22:15
Sounds pretty good to me but wouldn't 5v5 maybe be a bit "busy" if you know what i mean, although maybe the maps will be more than big enough to accommodate that?

From what I've seen in the trailer, I think they are big enough. But let's wait and watch what the devs do to improve their game.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 22:19
From what I've seen in the trailer, I think they are big enough. But let's wait and watch what the devs do to improve their game.

we should be very active as a community and get ideas and suggestions passed to so that these sorts of things can be implemented, everything posted could potentially be a good indication to them for what we are looking for them to implement.

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 22:22
Well, first I would like to say, please don't make the flying controls inverted, because that always confuses me. Or if you do, please make it optional, because I'm telling you I am hell bent on using the Razilim, and there will be vampires bombing out of the sky at random intervals because I won't be able to control it! (As amusing as that image is, don't do this to me, please. :poke: )
Other than that, unlockable character cosmetics. I think other people have mentioned it, but getting big Turelim ears would be just dandy. Oh! And unlockable Sarafan armor for humans. Actually, unlockable armor for any enemy from the past would make me more excited than is probably healthy. I would have to see a little bit more gameplay before I can comment more on that, but as for skins, I think I'd mostly like to specially request throwbacks. I'd like to demand different skins and outfits in general, though. That's right. Demand.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 22:31
Well, first I would like to say, please don't make the flying controls inverted, because that always confuses me. Or if you do, please make it optional, because I'm telling you I am hell bent on using the Razilim, and there will be vampires bombing out of the sky at random intervals because I won't be able to control it! (As amusing as that image is, don't do this to me, please. :poke: )
Other than that, unlockable character cosmetics. I think other people have mentioned it, but getting big Turelim ears would be just dandy. Oh! And unlockable Sarafan armor for humans. Actually, unlockable armor for any enemy from the past would make me more excited than is probably healthy. I would have to see a little bit more gameplay before I can comment more on that, but as for skins, I think I'd mostly like to specially request throwbacks. I'd like to demand different skins and outfits in general, though. That's right. Demand.

I think those are pretty sweet ideas! Especially the sarafan armor for humans, i think it would look pretty cool. They wouldn't fit cannon for the era of course but the look would be nice! I myself am in the exact same boat as you and will pretty much primarily be playing as a Razielim, and , as yourself i find inverted controls just a little bit fuzzy to use! so hopefully they are not inverted but i would think that the key binds will be customizable surely? either way i like your ideas!

TonyRex
26th Sep 2013, 22:42
I was reading the lore and I noticed that the vampire have tank class called Tyrant. I hope the devs add a big, armored Sarafan warrior class. It may add more balance to the gameplay.

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 22:54
I was reading the lore and I noticed that the vampire have tank class called Tyrant. I hope the devs add a big, armored Sarafan warrior class. It may add more balance to the gameplay.

nerothehero2 had mentioned that earlier and had suggested that perhaps introducing a character like the huge mercenary seen in defiance might balance that out quite well. So hopefully the devs might think so too.

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 22:57
I think those are pretty sweet ideas! Especially the sarafan armor for humans, i think it would look pretty cool. They wouldn't fit cannon for the era of course but the look would be nice! I myself am in the exact same boat as you and will pretty much primarily be playing as a Razielim, and , as yourself i find inverted controls just a little bit fuzzy to use! so hopefully they are not inverted but i would think that the key binds will be customizable surely? either way i like your ideas!

I think for a while, watching Razilim come rocketing out of the sky directly into the ground would be wildly hilarious, but it would get tiresome after doing that for a bit. I'm always afraid of anything with flying mechanics will be inverted. Too much Battlefield maybe?

SireofVorador
26th Sep 2013, 23:03
I think for a while, watching Razilim come rocketing out of the sky directly into the ground would be wildly hilarious, but it would get tiresome after doing that for a bit. I'm always afraid of anything with flying mechanics will be inverted. Too much Battlefield maybe?

I think it would be even funnier if youre not playing as the Razielim, like you are a Dumahim sneaking around ready to do a stealth kill then " BANG! " random Razielim hits the ground like a drunken bat lol! But still i agre with you, inverted controls are just not for me either.

LordMortanius
27th Sep 2013, 04:08
More class diversity I think is sorely needed at this juncture. Of course I am just going by the trailer like everyone else. I started a thread for magic users http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7193

I really think that is something this game should explore. Also I would not be opposed to large PVP teams but any more than 5 might be a little much (again assuming arenas are not that large). As of this writing I've been told by one of the officials in my thread that more class detail will be unveiled in the coming weeks and that if demand is strong enough for certain class types they will definately consider it :D

Oh and on the topic of Razielim inverted controls bloopers I can't help now but think of the Family Guy Drunk Billy skit except with Raziel now so thanks whoever started that :rolleyes:

Markelim
27th Sep 2013, 11:59
Obviosly everyone wants classes based on all the vampire lieutentants, it's gonna be interesting what powers Rahab's offspring would have in the game, swimming just doesn't seem enough. While on the subject, I feel some levels should have lots of water in them, it would be awesome to use rivers for tactical advantage, jump out from behind waterfalls, trap vampires in aqueducts etc.

Idea for a level. I would like to see a level based on the silenced cathedral, before Zephon took it over. Humans have to protect their half-finished weapon of mass destruction from hordes of Zephonim. If the vampires manage to get into the deepest parts and destroy the weapon they win, if the humans hold out long enough the weapon is activated and destroys all vampires in the area.

Question, is this game really gonna be just humans vs vampires? No in-fighting with the vampire clans? No vampire hunters going up against human vampire-worshipers?

MasterShuriko
27th Sep 2013, 14:22
obviosly everyone wants classes based on all the vampire lieutentants, it's gonna be interesting what powers rahab's offspring would have in the game, swimming just doesn't seem enough. While on the subject, i feel some levels should have lots of water in them, it would be awesome to use rivers for tactical advantage, jump out from behind waterfalls, trap vampires in aqueducts etc.

Idea for a level. I would like to see a level based on the silenced cathedral, before zephon took it over. Humans have to protect their half-finished weapon of mass destruction from hordes of zephelim. If the vampires manage to get into the deepest parts and destroy the weapon they win, if the humans hold out long enough the weapon is activated and destroys all vampires in the area.

Question, is this game really gonna be just humans vs vampires? No in-fighting with the vampire clans? No vampire hunters going up against human vampire-worshipers?

needs to happen like y-day!

Vampmaster
27th Sep 2013, 15:08
needs to happen like y-day!

We asked about the Rahabim at the community event and were told they were at the back of the queue for new character classes. It's understandable, because the levels that exist so far don't have water and if some were added everyone else would be at a huge disadvantage. I think the Zephonim were the best candidates for the next clan.

Spider-vamp, Spider vamp, does whatever a Spider-vamp does!

Markelim
27th Sep 2013, 15:53
We asked about the Rahabim at the community event and were told they were at the back of the queue for new character classes. It's understandable, because the levels that exist so far don't have water and if some were added everyone else would be at a huge disadvantage. I think the Zephonim were the best candidates for the next clan.

Spider-vamp, Spider vamp, does whatever a Spider-vamp does!

Looking forward to that. I'm not sure how accurate this is but I hear that Zephon's level was very much inspired by Aliens, I hope they keep to the theme of H.R Geiger when they design the Zephonim :D

LordMortanius
27th Sep 2013, 16:21
As far as the Rahabim go, lore is on their side here as they weren't as devastated by the sun until much later in the de-evolution process so they could still operate normally on dry land. Although what is tricky is representing any real advantage concerning water in a game like this.

Vampmaster
27th Sep 2013, 16:43
As far as the Rahabim go, lore is on their side here as they weren't as devastated by the sun until much later in the de-evolution process so they could still operate normally on dry land. Although what is tricky is representing any real advantage concerning water in a game like this.

My suggestion would be to give them poison based abilities, since I think that's what their projectile was supposed to be (I think Daniel Cabuco aid that). Their preproduction name Aluka means leech according to www.thelostworlds.net, so maybe something could be done involving that.

I'm in total agreement for leaving them until last, though.

CAR105_3
27th Sep 2013, 23:33
I like the Idea of a "Sarafan Warrior", they could make a group of humans that strive to emulate the Sarafan and it would be the only class able to stand toe to toe with vampires.

-High Health
-Good Meelee DPS, but low DPS ranged attack
-Weapons that look similar to Malek's Halberd.

The_Hylden
28th Sep 2013, 00:31
I would rather they have warriors devoted to the precursor of something maybe based on Sarafan stuff, but making it their own. Maybe also precursors to the Priestess. She's human, after all, so she shouldn't be born yet, but someone of her lineage that started what will become her order could have warriors following them.

MasterShuriko
28th Sep 2013, 01:49
Well Im sitting on needles until I get to see some more of the game =D

Le_Don
28th Sep 2013, 08:40
Also i know what you mean about wanting more than just a death match. Ive never really played much of them before so i cant really judge too much but what i do know is that variety is key. Maybe getting a good description up of what you think would work well would be a good way to go? describe out in detail what you think would work best?
I guess I already wrote, what I think I would like to see. Something like capture the flag or capture points, as I believe that these matchtypes do support the team spirit. At least more than death matches do.

Bl4ckw4tch
28th Sep 2013, 10:15
I will really like if we could upgrade weapons (human side) and abilities (vampire side). There should be more classes, for example maybe a ranged vampire, or a melee human (like the big guys on Blood Omen 2, with the vampire detector armor) that should be great...
I already think that this game will be epic, it has 3 classes on each side, and think this will be just the Closed Beta...keep it up guys!!! :D

CAR105_3
28th Sep 2013, 12:14
(like the big guys on Blood Omen 2, with the vampire detector armor)
^This is a great idea
Those guys looked awesome and they could be used as a way to sniff out vampires from hiding places and negate the element of surprise to some vampires.

Vampmaster
28th Sep 2013, 12:28
I suppose the Turelim could get upgradable ears as a powerup! :p

TheIrtar
28th Sep 2013, 19:18
This is the first Legacy of Kain game that they've released marketing material for since Defiance. Though there has been leaks of various attempts and projects, this one has made it the farthest.

Love it or hate it, this is happening.

Now, we can complain until we're blue in the face. Gods know I was enraged when I learned I wasn't getting my closure, and instead was getting a F2P PVP arena. But do you know what I realized?

If I just sit back, and watch it burn, it could take another decade before we get another LoK game. So, I'm ready to give 110% to make this F2P PVP arena stand out from the others, so that it doesn't die in obscurity like 90% of the games released into this oversaturated genre.

We, the fans, have our battlefield to make our stand for our series. We can't make war with the army we want, but the army we have.

SO. Suggestions that I think will help this game stand out from its rivals, or at the very least give it some longevity. And I encourage EVERYBODY to add to this, and refine this. If we can build the best game we, as a group, can put our minds to and make this game a smashing success we increase our odds of more LoK content in the future.

And mark me, Square, you will use this time to negotiate to get back Amy Henning and Kurt Harland. *tiny fist of rage*

One Shard

One server. One shard. One world. One Nosgoth.

Whatever you want to call it, allow everyone from every location to play with one another. How many people have wanted to play with friends who live in other places of the world only to learn they're not on your server? How many times have I met a buddy who plays WoT but on the EU server, or LoL but they're on the Oceanic server?

Since this is an arena based game, there is no reason we can't store everyone's account in one database.

This way, we don't have to worry about the dead server recursive, and can keep activity as strong for as long as possible. More players = More rounds = More fun = More money.

Glyphs

Alright, now we start to get into the gameplay stuff.

We know that the warriors of Nosgoth have used Glyphs to enhance themselves for centuries. The Sarafan warriors carved them into their armour. Raziel used them for magic in SR1. The Hylden Lord's troops used them in BO2. Glyph symbols were used as collectibles to expand magic and health in Defiance.

Glyphs could provide enhancements to individual abilities, and give the ability for players to customize their characters into something that matches their particular style.

The bonuses don't have to be large, just a few points here and there. Imagine the runes from League of Legends, where they're just another element in setting up your particular character. This will provide both progression and monetization options, which is good for both players and the developer.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE A WAY TO GET THEM IN GAME. ALL OF THEM.

The War for Nosgoth

We could just have a generic PVP arena game where you choose your character, and get assigned to a random side. That is all well and good.

BUT this is Nosgoth, where story has always been King!

Players should pick the side they want to fight for, and work towards various campaign goals. This will allow for an unfolding storyline, and for the series not to lose its narrative edge.

Provide rewards to the winning side.

A couple come to mind:

Silence the Cathedral The Humans have built a weapon in the heart of Nosgoth, a great cathedral with sounding pipes tuned to the death of Kain's brood. It is not yet complete, but if it is allowed to be finished it could carry its deadly hymn across Nosgoth.

"Once a testament to mankind’s defiance of Kain’s empire, this towering cathedral now stood derelict, the humans who worshipped here, dead for centuries. Its architects conceived this tower as a holy weapon against the vampire menace, a colossal instrument of brass and stone. The cathedral’s pipes, once tuned to blast a deadly hymn, now stood silent, and these vacant spaces whistled their impotence."-Raziel

We can derive from this that while Raziel was a vampire, the Cathedral was still a threat. Imagine a struggle of mutual survival. The vampires trying to avoid extinction, and the humans trying to keep their greatest hope of liberation in tact.

Fall of the Ashen City Dumah, feeling safe in his fortress deep in the mountains, sent the bulk of his forces out to the field to crush the humans in the field. Little did he know that they had made the hard march through the mountain passes undetected, and were poised to strike his under garrisoned throne.

A series of battles, as the humans creep deeper and deeper into the city, trying to gain a truly lasting victory.

There are a variety of scenarios that can be written about the era that can unfold. Perhaps the humans trying to re-establish the Kingdom of Willendorf in the south? Maybe the clans crushing and purging one of the remaining human cities? They can be as big, or as small as we can think them up. They can span a year, or span a month, with scenario battles during that time that add up to figure who, in the end, wins.

Crafting

Love it or hate it, it is ubiquitous and for a good reason. It is a great way to provide progression, and can be implemented in such a way that it doesn't impact the actual power progression in the game. There are several ways that this can be addressed in Nosgoth.

Team Fortress 2: Allow players to use their collectable, customizable items for crafting and currency. The good news for this is it allows you to say nearly everything in game can be found, but still allow you to sell goods and make a profit.

This allows crafting to both be a progression path (I spent weeks earning items to craft this sick hat) and a monetization path (Hey, look at this sweet hat! Only $5!).

This also encourages players to play the game to get their materials, and anything that encourages people to play more is a bonus.

Neverwinter: Craft through minions. You can send them off to gather materials, and craft things while you're busy doing more important things (like liberating / enthralling Nosgoth).

The good news is that it allows you to build a huge suite of crafting professions and can allow it to be done in a relatively hands off way for the player. The bad news is that it is disconnected from the gameplay, so may not be engaging enough.

This can be corrected with some like a Mansion system. Imagine, a place to actually collect your resources and send your thralls to work. You can slowly build it up as a symbol of your progression in the game. Can even add cosmetic items for your Mansion for further monetization. Sort of like a dark gothic farmville, where you trade broken humans and blood rather than sheep.

Tokens / Fragments: Similar to the TF2 approach, but without the random cosmetics. You earn tokens and fragments which be combined and sold for goods. The better you do, the more tokens you earn.

The big problem with this specific system is that it can really undercut progression, since you don't even get the random chance to drop cool cosmetics. It can very easily feel to the player like they're just being forced to grind time versus a monetary investment.

But what to craft?

Cosmetics Hats. Pauldrons. Shiny bits. The obvious one.

Glyphs Tie them into the crafting, and allow the progression systems to feed one another.

Campaign goods Spend your time crafting things which will give a bonus to your side's war score!

calypso-694
28th Sep 2013, 21:41
hey guys its me (Calypso694 on other forums) my idiot self registered with that name but used an email that I don't think exists...anyways back on topic.

I don't know if this has been said already because I didn't bother in reading all the other posts BUT something I would like to see is a dynamic look in leveling up. cosmentic as well as a bonus upgrade.

so we know that the vampires don't have the pointy ears or three claw,two toe look they do in the others because they are fledglings kay? well, what if when you reach certain levels those looks change to reflect there evolvement(or rather devolve) into the monsters we know in the other games. heres an example.

reaching lvl 10 - fangs, improved and faster drinking blood

lvl 20 - pointy ears, improved hearing and a sense of where your enemies are when close

30- pointy claws and toes, faster and more agile, stronger

40 - they star to shed the armors they where to due their skin becoming thicker like that of kain and voradors armored shell. take less damage

it goes on but you guys get the idea. also I think it would be great to have the telekinetic blood draining ability as well. like if a human enemy is close to death and a vampire is close enough they can drain them telekinetically ala blood omen 1,2 defiance, that one scene when raz firsts emerges and comes upon dumahim and discovers to kill vampires...you get the point.

This lvl up progress obviously isn't just for the clans. the humans also get cosmetic and stronger weapons.

I had a thought that as they lvl up the armor starts to change to look more like the vampire hunters from SR1 that you come across in the human city and other locations, similar to what the star wars prequels did in making the new designs revert to the old ones from the originals. OR the armor can start going into what the original sarafan order looked like, that or the resurrected order from BO2. hell maybe even customizable.

and as far as the razielim go they can just get even more devolved until the turn into fully fledged giant bats. Lexy on Dcab showed some of her art and her designs were amazing for the fully devolved raziel and his clan.

oh and I loved the idea of having a WOW type voice over for each era. having Tony (RIP) do them would have been amazing seeing as how the EG sees all. Getting Simon back would be great, ill be a bit sad if Simon, Michael, or the others don't show up in some way, shape or form even its just quick VO for the areas and characters.

Limed00d
28th Sep 2013, 22:02
I wonder if the Turelim cut off his ears and made himself deaf in order to combat his only great weakness..?

SireofVorador
29th Sep 2013, 15:06
This is the first Legacy of Kain game that they've released marketing material for since Defiance. Though there has been leaks of various attempts and projects, this one has made it the farthest.

Love it or hate it, this is happening.

Now, we can complain until we're blue in the face. Gods know I was enraged when I learned I wasn't getting my closure, and instead was getting a F2P PVP arena. But do you know what I realized?

If I just sit back, and watch it burn, it could take another decade before we get another LoK game. So, I'm ready to give 110% to make this F2P PVP arena stand out from the others, so that it doesn't die in obscurity like 90% of the games released into this oversaturated genre.

We, the fans, have our battlefield to make our stand for our series. We can't make war with the army we want, but the army we have.

SO. Suggestions that I think will help this game stand out from its rivals, or at the very least give it some longevity. And I encourage EVERYBODY to add to this, and refine this. If we can build the best game we, as a group, can put our minds to and make this game a smashing success we increase our odds of more LoK content in the future.

And mark me, Square, you will use this time to negotiate to get back Amy Henning and Kurt Harland. *tiny fist of rage*

One Shard

One server. One shard. One world. One Nosgoth.

Whatever you want to call it, allow everyone from every location to play with one another. How many people have wanted to play with friends who live in other places of the world only to learn they're not on your server? How many times have I met a buddy who plays WoT but on the EU server, or LoL but they're on the Oceanic server?

Since this is an arena based game, there is no reason we can't store everyone's account in one database.

This way, we don't have to worry about the dead server recursive, and can keep activity as strong for as long as possible. More players = More rounds = More fun = More money.

Glyphs

Alright, now we start to get into the gameplay stuff.

We know that the warriors of Nosgoth have used Glyphs to enhance themselves for centuries. The Sarafan warriors carved them into their armour. Raziel used them for magic in SR1. The Hylden Lord's troops used them in BO2. Glyph symbols were used as collectibles to expand magic and health in Defiance.

Glyphs could provide enhancements to individual abilities, and give the ability for players to customize their characters into something that matches their particular style.

The bonuses don't have to be large, just a few points here and there. Imagine the runes from League of Legends, where they're just another element in setting up your particular character. This will provide both progression and monetization options, which is good for both players and the developer.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE A WAY TO GET THEM IN GAME. ALL OF THEM.

The War for Nosgoth

We could just have a generic PVP arena game where you choose your character, and get assigned to a random side. That is all well and good.

BUT this is Nosgoth, where story has always been King!

Players should pick the side they want to fight for, and work towards various campaign goals. This will allow for an unfolding storyline, and for the series not to lose its narrative edge.

Provide rewards to the winning side.

A couple come to mind:

Silence the Cathedral The Humans have built a weapon in the heart of Nosgoth, a great cathedral with sounding pipes tuned to the death of Kain's brood. It is not yet complete, but if it is allowed to be finished it could carry its deadly hymn across Nosgoth.

"Once a testament to mankind’s defiance of Kain’s empire, this towering cathedral now stood derelict, the humans who worshipped here, dead for centuries. Its architects conceived this tower as a holy weapon against the vampire menace, a colossal instrument of brass and stone. The cathedral’s pipes, once tuned to blast a deadly hymn, now stood silent, and these vacant spaces whistled their impotence."-Raziel

We can derive from this that while Raziel was a vampire, the Cathedral was still a threat. Imagine a struggle of mutual survival. The vampires trying to avoid extinction, and the humans trying to keep their greatest hope of liberation in tact.

Fall of the Ashen City Dumah, feeling safe in his fortress deep in the mountains, sent the bulk of his forces out to the field to crush the humans in the field. Little did he know that they had made the hard march through the mountain passes undetected, and were poised to strike his under garrisoned throne.

A series of battles, as the humans creep deeper and deeper into the city, trying to gain a truly lasting victory.

There are a variety of scenarios that can be written about the era that can unfold. Perhaps the humans trying to re-establish the Kingdom of Willendorf in the south? Maybe the clans crushing and purging one of the remaining human cities? They can be as big, or as small as we can think them up. They can span a year, or span a month, with scenario battles during that time that add up to figure who, in the end, wins.

Crafting

Love it or hate it, it is ubiquitous and for a good reason. It is a great way to provide progression, and can be implemented in such a way that it doesn't impact the actual power progression in the game. There are several ways that this can be addressed in Nosgoth.

Team Fortress 2: Allow players to use their collectable, customizable items for crafting and currency. The good news for this is it allows you to say nearly everything in game can be found, but still allow you to sell goods and make a profit.

This allows crafting to both be a progression path (I spent weeks earning items to craft this sick hat) and a monetization path (Hey, look at this sweet hat! Only $5!).

This also encourages players to play the game to get their materials, and anything that encourages people to play more is a bonus.

Neverwinter: Craft through minions. You can send them off to gather materials, and craft things while you're busy doing more important things (like liberating / enthralling Nosgoth).

The good news is that it allows you to build a huge suite of crafting professions and can allow it to be done in a relatively hands off way for the player. The bad news is that it is disconnected from the gameplay, so may not be engaging enough.

This can be corrected with some like a Mansion system. Imagine, a place to actually collect your resources and send your thralls to work. You can slowly build it up as a symbol of your progression in the game. Can even add cosmetic items for your Mansion for further monetization. Sort of like a dark gothic farmville, where you trade broken humans and blood rather than sheep.

Tokens / Fragments: Similar to the TF2 approach, but without the random cosmetics. You earn tokens and fragments which be combined and sold for goods. The better you do, the more tokens you earn.

The big problem with this specific system is that it can really undercut progression, since you don't even get the random chance to drop cool cosmetics. It can very easily feel to the player like they're just being forced to grind time versus a monetary investment.

[b]But what to craft?[b]

Cosmetics Hats. Pauldrons. Shiny bits. The obvious one.

Glyphs Tie them into the crafting, and allow the progression systems to feed one another.

Campaign goods Spend your time crafting things which will give a bonus to your side's war score!

i love your ideas! i think they are very cool and would really add something!
also like you i am hoping everyone gets on board so as to make it the very best we can so that there will be many more games and trips to nosgoth on the horizon!

Itazura25
29th Sep 2013, 15:18
This Is my suggestion:

http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7272

Enclave
29th Sep 2013, 20:52
What would I like in the game? A strong story driven narrative, puzzles, fantastic voice acting. Oh and scrapping the multiplayer.

Wraithblade6
29th Sep 2013, 20:59
Keep the multiplayer, and I second the notion of a place to hang out with friends and show off your achievements, particularly when you have more than 5 friends or want to be in public.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 01:15
What would I like in the game? A strong story driven narrative, puzzles, fantastic voice acting. Oh and scrapping the multiplayer.

Well, since these things probably aren't going to happen, what would you suggest for a multiplayer game? :)

Edit: On a side note, I would like to use this space to request little story based secrets be scattered around the maps. It would be pretty neat to find little hidden areas with that kind of thing. :3

VakPeEe
30th Sep 2013, 09:51
So i will contribute, too :)

I hope that vampires will be able to use melee weapons and that they will be able to throw them with great force on target as Raziel ... imagine how rewarding frags it would be :D

SireofVorador
30th Sep 2013, 10:41
What would I like in the game? A strong story driven narrative, puzzles, fantastic voice acting. Oh and scrapping the multiplayer.

i think you may have missed the title of this thread, we all know that's what we want to get, but as we dont have it right now its all about making Nosgoth the best it can be, so , with that being said do you have anything constructive to add?

Instar
30th Sep 2013, 10:46
I think this is a brilliant idea!

Instar
30th Sep 2013, 10:48
Perhaps maybe a special temporary unlock character, like you could have in Star Wars BattleFront 2, where you could unlock a hero character for a limited time based on a high kill score. Perhaps have one of the Lieutenants for the Vampires...

Vanyelxp5
30th Sep 2013, 13:48
What I'd like to see, is a semi-open world where you can travel to the different arena areas, and then you enter the queue to join the arena upon stepping foot into it, rather than just a lobby where you click a button that says "Join game" or "create game"

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 15:29
If you guys want, you should check out the twitch and read some of the comments.
Some people are putting out some pretty incredible ideas. It's neat.

Gryregaest
30th Sep 2013, 22:26
I'm hoping for more classes as well. Three choices for each side seems a little narrow. It kind of goes without saying that the other three clans should be represented.

I'd especially like to see the Zephonim, though I have some concern about what kind of role they'll fill, since their qualities in SR were of the agile variety, which is a niche that seems like the Dumahim are filling right now. That being said, I think there's still room for them. All the vampires in the game appear to not have vertical structures as an obstacle, but you could still work with the wall crawling thing. Maybe the Zephonim could pounce directly from walls and ceilings. There's also the fact that those bodies in the Silenced Cathedral were cocooned, which implies the Zephonim can secrete some kind silk or resin that could be used to slow or stop enemies in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if they're poisonous too, given the whole spider thing. Since I doubt poison would work on Raziel, it could easily be explained by simply not coming up in SR.

Melchiahim are a tricky one, since they were more defined by weakness than strength in SR. I could see some interpretation of Melchiah's phasing ability being implemented. You never see them use anything like that in SR, but again, it's the sort of thing that doesn't really come up. They could also work as an ambush type, either by doing that burrowing and popping out of the ground thing they had in SR, or maybe by some sort of feign death ability, since they're so very corpsey. Someone mentioned involving the spectral realm, and I agree that if a clan were to be connected to that, it would be the Melchiahim, since they seem closest to being regular dead, and Melchiah himself could interact with the spectral realm. Dumah could too, but that's because he'd become a soul devourer. I'm not sure about full on entering the spectral realm, but maybe being able to see into the spectral realm. Maybe have a vision shift sort of like the Aliens vs Predator games. Something that makes material beings (i.e. players) harder to see/invisible, but provides some other sort of information to the player. Maybe it lets them detect where people recently died, or where weaker enemies/allies are, since they're near death. Maybe something else. This is not a complete idea.

Rahabim are harder to nail down, I see why they'd be on the bottom of the list. Their strengths are very situational. The Aquaman of LoK vampires. Resistance to water as an advantage is very dependent on the map you're playing on. Maybe the water weakness can be connected to other methods the humans use to fight vampires. We don't know much about what they do so far, or what future classes might do, but maybe a human class's ability to detect vampires, or some manner of magic use against them will depend on that weakness, which would make the Rahabim immune to it. I like the poison idea someone put out too. Though of course if the Rahabim are going to be poisonous, the Zephonim shouldn't be. And I agree the sun weakness is something that could be left out, since it would logically come after the water resistance, not before.

It might be interesting to include the human vampire-cultists. I always found them interesting and it's a shame their dungeon got dropped in SR. They'd obviously be much weaker than the vampires, but might be resistant to methods designed to kill vampires. There's also the possibility of them being able to disguise themselves as the enemy. I was talking about the cultists with a friend on steam, and a confusion of what I meant led to another idea - of the cultists being non-player characters. Maybe one of the vampire classes could summon multiple cultists to aid them, making them a bit like the TF2 engineer in that respect, weak and dependent on other things they create.

Ideas for the humans are a little harder to come up with since there's not so much framework to base it on. A revival of the Sarafan does sound interesting. It happened in BO2, so why not here? The Sarafan, with the whole knight thing going on, seem more suited to melee. There's been a few mentions here about having a melee class for the humans, which might be hard to implement, since a lot of the game seems based on melee vs ranged. But maybe there can be a melee compromise in that. If I was fighting an enemy I know to be stronger, faster, and more resilient, and was going to use a melee weapon, I'd want something as long as possible. So maybe a spearman? Have an armored soldier with an 8-foot long pike, it would be deadly if a vampire got stuck with it, and leave the human out of harm's way. But because of its length, if the enemy got around it, it would leave the spear wielder very vulnerable.

Other ideas... Maybe a finely polished shield that can be used to redirect focused sunlight at vampires. Not really for damage since Nosgoth vampires aren't that weak to it, but maybe as a stun. It could make their screen white out for a moment. That's another thing that's very dependent on the map though, since it wouldn't work on a night map.

There's lots of possibilities with magic users. The use of healers is an advantage of humans I think, since presumably the vampires can only heal through feeding. Maybe there could be temporary wards to keep vampires out of a localized area. There's of course your general attack spell stuff, like shooting fire or whatnot. We really don't have a lot of information on the types and limitations of magic for ordinary people (as in, not pillar guardians) in Nosgoth.

The use of animals could be another strength. Again, we actually don't know the kind of relationship vampires have with other animals, but having animals dislike them wouldn't be a stretch, as that sort of thing is very common with undead in other fiction. Maybe you could have a human class that is mounted, and can lance or run down vampires. I actually don't know if horses are a thing in Nosgoth or not, since they don't ever seem to be shown or mentioned, but it wouldn't be out of place. There's also dogs, which we know, through dialogue references, are a thing. You could have a class with hunting dogs that could smell or hear vampires before the humans can. Or hell, you could have a class that IS a dog.

Denam_Pavel
1st Oct 2013, 20:27
Pack it full with cutscenes featuring the remaining lieutenants and Vorador (who should be alive now) and all will be well.

mrslig100
2nd Oct 2013, 12:07
What would I like in the game? A strong story driven narrative, puzzles, fantastic voice acting. Oh and scrapping the multiplayer.
Well I was gonna say don't get your Legacy of Kain and TF2 mixed up but ok...

RainaAudron
2nd Oct 2013, 13:02
Pack it full with cutscenes featuring the remaining lieutenants and Vorador (who should be alive now) and all will be well.

Since it´s an mp game, no cutscenes will be present.

Umbralim
5th Oct 2013, 05:28
I'm really interested in the ties mentioned between the human factions and Dark Eden and I really hope they push that since the the DE triad are the only guardians we haven't really gotten much of a back story on yet and I would love to see classes based on Djoule and Bane for the humans in addition to Anacrothe.

For Djoule I had the idea of a character wears an electrified lead cloak (since they have industry in this time shown in BO2) and can be melee attacked by vampires without them getting hurt, but is really slow (cause a lead cloak is heavy if your not a guardian) and needs other classes to give it maintenance to keep its cloak electrified else it'll become vulnerable. so basically a walking base class, where the vampires will have to pick off the help before taking it down.

Bazielim
5th Oct 2013, 13:59
For Djoule I had the idea of a character wears an electrified lead cloak (since they have industry in this time shown in BO2).
Minor spanner to throw in the works: I think you'll find this is second timeline, BO2 doesn't exist until fourth so this era doesn't necessarily have to follow anything from BO2.

Interesting idea though - not sure it would necessarily work with the ranged vs melee focus but it is an interesting one nonetheless.:D

Vampmaster
5th Oct 2013, 14:17
Minor spanner to throw in the works: I think you'll find this is second timeline, BO2 doesn't exist until fourth so this era doesn't necessarily have to follow anything from BO2.

Interesting idea though - not sure it would necessarily work with the ranged vs melee focus but it is an interesting one nonetheless.:D

I already suggested a lightning rod somewhere for the Energist role. Lightning bolts would come down from the sky, hit the rod and be directed to enemies in the distance. It could be customised to bounce of walls or do something like this at 0:30:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n0-8MtvwD4&list=PL4hReORSjNr4v-2LG17nX9uJW1nHxc-Gs&index=2

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 17:42
since Dark Eden is being a majorly anticipated lore feature of Nosgoth, adding some neutral NPC hazards would be awesome, like vicious mutated beasts that can be released onto the battlefield and attack everything they see, it could be used in a CTF-type map ( by CTF i ofc don't mean a real flag, maybe a crystal or something that could be a valuable power source in the ongoing war and each side has to retrieve the others to power some form of weapon/magical ward to win a battle/secure a territory), or some objective based map as a tactical hazard.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 17:49
I honestly wouldn't mind npc monsters being released/summoned to the battlefield. Even the vampire Lieutenants would be great. Or maybe they could be unlockable playable characters similar to Arkham Origins Bane & Joker?

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 17:53
Unlockable playable chars of that power would be a bit unfair and over powered, but as NPCs in a summon a Titan type game would be awesome, vamps summon the lieutenants, humans activate some long lost or newly built golem/machine.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 17:58
I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they were playable.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 18:37
I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they were playable.

Granted they can make an excuse why the Lieutenants are fighting alongside grunts and aren't making a major difference, like maybe they are being sapped of power by some artifact or something. But that would be bending the lore too much I think.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 18:45
I disagree. I don't see why you need a convoluted lore excuse for them not automatically wiping the floor with the humans. Humans managed to kill Dumah in his prime.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 18:58
I'd especially like to see the Zephonim, though I have some concern about what kind of role they'll fill, since their qualities in SR were of the agile variety, which is a niche that seems like the Dumahim are filling right now. That being said, I think there's still room for them. All the vampires in the game appear to not have vertical structures as an obstacle, but you could still work with the wall crawling thing. Maybe the Zephonim could pounce directly from walls and ceilings. There's also the fact that those bodies in the Silenced Cathedral were cocooned, which implies the Zephonim can secrete some kind silk or resin that could be used to slow or stop enemies in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if they're poisonous too, given the whole spider thing. Since I doubt poison would work on Raziel, it could easily be explained by simply not coming up in SR.

The Dumahim were not to be the agile ones, but the normal vampires. But vampires are agile anyway. So there is room to an even more agile character.


I honestly wouldn't mind npc monsters being released/summoned to the battlefield. Even the vampire Lieutenants would be great. Or maybe they could be unlockable playable characters similar to Arkham Origins Bane & Joker?

Not playable, but I would love having skins for my vampires that make them look as the Lieutenants =O ;D


I'm sure they could find a way to balance it if they were playable.

If they balance, it would be nonsense, to have a weak Lieutenant. Unless each side have a commander (one human and one vampiric) and when you go into a killing spree and die after you unlock it for one respawn only. But I think that would make the game boring, just making the ones who are winning to get even better scores.

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 19:05
If they balance, it would be nonsense, to have a weak Lieutenant. Unless each side have a commander (one human and one vampiric) and when you go into a killing spree and die after you unlock it for one respawn only. But I think that would make the game boring, just making the ones who are winning to get even better scores.

You suggested the idea of them unlocking by kill streaks. If you find that boring then don't suggest it. I wouldn't mind either side having an unlockable commander, but I wouldn't personally have it be something like kill streaks because that would be rewarding players a clear unfair advantage when they're already winning. I'd leave something more even and possibly a timed unlock for either side or another method that's more fair.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 19:44
You suggested the idea of them unlocking by kill streaks. If you find that boring then don't suggest it. I wouldn't mind either side having an unlockable commander, but I wouldn't personally have it be something like kill streaks because that would be rewarding players a clear unfair advantage when they're already winning. I'd leave something more even and possibly a timed unlock for either side or another method that's more fair.
I used for an exemple to suggest the other idea, as a trigger for getting the commander. Maybe the time idea is better, but which of the players would use the commander? Also, I think that would be unfair, because the frag of one guy on the team would come up. I think that this whole idea of a commander shouldn't and won't see play.


Another idea I just had. What about a Lore ability, such as Kain had in BO2 for the vampires? it would have to be a little advantage, so it would not come being OP, but the idea of vampires going better over time in game, until they die, pleases me. That would be cool =D

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 20:04
I've no idea if the devs will even consider it, but I believe it's a worthwhile suggestion and can be balanced well enough.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:06
Yeah, maybe by putting a "rage" bar for humans, or something...

Also, what about a necromancer in the humans team? He could be linked with Mortanius, by some way =D

Reidbynature
5th Oct 2013, 20:20
No qualms about adding a necormancer personally. Though I'd be hesitant about adding too many connections to past pillar guardians or really anything in the lore that dates back to Blood Omen. I think one or two references here and there, especially when it comes to human history. I don't think Kain would allow a lot of the knowledge of that era to be freely available in his empire.

ZeroFernir
5th Oct 2013, 20:25
Actually, by having the clans as vampiric references for each class, I think that is enough vampiric lore in it. but I definatelly feel the lack of lore in the human side, specially lore that makes references to the previous story characters.

LordNekronom
5th Oct 2013, 23:23
I would love to see a necromancer added, but I would remind you that aside from Mortanius there are no major necromancers in the lore, in fact the undead are reviled by humans due to the vampire curse being considered a form of undeath. So maybe a byo-transmuter/corrupted druid class would make more sense, that creates or controls a mutated beast.

kevmac83
5th Oct 2013, 23:38
The dark chronicle is a great idea. I think the big worry with this game is it just not feeling like LOK and having the chronicle explaining the current state of Nosgoth and prior events would really help to feel like we're in the same world as the previous games. One of the things I'm wondering about though is the music. LOK had such a great soundtrack and while I don't think using the same music is necessary it would be great for it to have the same tone as in previous entries. It really helped convey the fatalistic atmosphere which i think goes a long way in helping feel like we're in the same universe. Personally I think Nosgoth looks great so far and as long as it feels connected to the LOK universe it's going to be an awesome game.

ZeroFernir
6th Oct 2013, 00:04
I would love to see a necromancer added, but I would remind you that aside from Mortanius there are no major necromancers in the lore, in fact the undead are reviled by humans due to the vampire curse being considered a form of undeath. So maybe a byo-transmuter/corrupted druid class would make more sense, that creates or controls a mutated beast.

Maybe Mortanius himself teached some new guys... he had the Hash'ak'gik cult after it, right?


The dark chronicle is a great idea. I think the big worry with this game is it just not feeling like LOK and having the chronicle explaining the current state of Nosgoth and prior events would really help to feel like we're in the same world as the previous games. One of the things I'm wondering about though is the music. LOK had such a great soundtrack and while I don't think using the same music is necessary it would be great for it to have the same tone as in previous entries. It really helped convey the fatalistic atmosphere which i think goes a long way in helping feel like we're in the same universe. Personally I think Nosgoth looks great so far and as long as it feels connected to the LOK universe it's going to be an awesome game.

You are not the only one worried about the atmosphere, my friend, and I, just as you, hope they take their time chosing the music... It really is important for the game...

LordNekronom
7th Oct 2013, 13:11
I do hope they put some of the old LoK music in there too, like Raziel clan theme (ozar midrashim), when you have a killing spree or complete an objective or change it according to the highest scoring class in the match, play turel's clan theme if a turelim is highest scoring, and change it when another player tops his score, it would add for dynamic music based on the ongoing battle

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 13:12
I do hope they put some of the old LoK music in there too, like Raziel clan theme (ozar midrashim), when you have a killing spree or complete an objective or change it according to the highest scoring class in the match, play turel's clan theme if a turelim is highest scoring, and change it when another player tops his score, it would add for dynamic music based on the ongoing battle

Cool idea, But I think it wouldn't work, because you can change classes in the middle of the game...

RainaAudron
7th Oct 2013, 13:15
And music is done entirely by somebody else...

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 13:20
And music is done entirely by somebody else...

Unfortunately, I think. LoK had a great soundtrack team... hope they mantain the high-level sound seen before.

Vampmaster
7th Oct 2013, 14:08
If the pillars became available as DLC later on, it would be cool to include Ozar Midrashim for just that level. I think that would make it especially rewarding.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 14:15
If the pillars became available as DLC later on, it would be cool to include Ozar Midrashim for just that level. I think that would make it especially rewarding.

I think there could be a DLC for the maps we all know and want, like pillars, Avernus Cathedral and Sarafan Stronghold, even thought they do not match the time or something, for the ones who want to see them anyway, even not matching the time of the game. I would love it, personally... would be really nostalgic.

About Ozar Midrashim, I agree that it should be there somewhere... maybe in the title screen.

Vampmaster
7th Oct 2013, 14:23
I think there could be a DLC for the maps we all know and want, like pillars, Avernus Cathedral and Sarafan Stronghold, even thought they do not match the time or something, for the ones who want to see them anyway, even not matching the time of the game. I would love it, personally... would be really nostalgic.

About Ozar Midrashim, I agree that it should be there somewhere... maybe in the title screen.

I was suggesting they save it for some special release or something. For now, I want a even mix of new and old areas as long as they're actually interesting ones. Freeport and Provance didn't seem that exciting but they'll do for now as there were a lot of areas in the trailer and Q&A background that looked a lot better.

ZeroFernir
7th Oct 2013, 14:28
I was suggesting they save it for some special release or something. For now, I want a even mix of new and old areas as long as they're actually interesting ones. Freeport and Provance didn't seem that exciting but they'll do for now as there were a lot of areas in the trailer and Q&A background that looked a lot better.

I actually didn't put that much attention on the backgrounds on Q&A xD

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 01:49
If they do put Ozar Midrashim in a specific map I think it should be on a map of the Razielim cities/Territory (remember those statues in vampire cities that people thought were Hylden but the devs said they weren't, the look exactly like a head customization for the Razielim, I'm betting that's one of the Razielim cities)

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 01:56
If they do put Ozar Midrashim in a specific map I think it should be on a map of the Razielim cities/Territory (remember those statues in vampire cities that people thought were Hylden but the devs said they weren't, the look exactly like a head customization for the Razielim, I'm betting that's one of the Razielim cities)

I still think Ozar Midrashim should be the main theme. It fits perfectly.

LordNekronom
8th Oct 2013, 02:15
I still think Ozar Midrashim should be the main theme. It fits perfectly.

Ofc it does, it is the main team for Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance :D

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 02:26
Ofc it does, it is the main team for Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2 and Defiance :D

Maybe in the arenas we should not have music... that is what I think.

Umbralim
8th Oct 2013, 16:15
What I'm interested to know is can vampires take and eat the corpses of enemies killed by other vampires?

I think that be a nice feature

I know some people would say that would create some drawbacks, but it could also create some very helpful situations not to mention it would totally reflect the bickering of clans fighting over food and such and I think one of the best strengths of story-based MP is to find ways to make the players think a little bit like the people they're playing as.

RainaAudron
8th Oct 2013, 16:30
What I'm interested to know is can vampires take and eat the corpses of enemies killed by other vampires?

Yes, I think you can do that. I didn´t really try it out myself, but I see how it can be used for strategic purposes.

ZeroFernir
8th Oct 2013, 18:00
Yes, I think you can do that. I didn´t really try it out myself, but I see how it can be used for strategic purposes.

That would be interesting. But is there some way not to drink the blood when you kill a human? =P

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 19:57
uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh,
as a way to include spectral realm.....
what if some "deaths" of vampires can be reversed by teammates? LIke pulling a weapon out of the vamp's heart???? So, during that time, the player who is staked would shift into spectral realm and would get harrassed by angry sluagh and drunk-driving souls. There'd be a limited amount of time for your team to reach your body and bring you back to life, or else death claims you for real and you have to give up on the character. (Maybe you see yourself get devoured by a sluagh herd).


And giving the Melchiahs a quick spectral fade-out ability would be a nice tactical tool, used like Kain's mist form in BO1 or Raziel's passwall ability.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 20:09
uuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh,
as a way to include spectral realm.....
what if some "deaths" of vampires can be reversed by teammates? LIke pulling a weapon out of the vamp's heart???? So, during that time, the player who is staked would shift into spectral realm and would get harrassed by angry sluagh and drunk-driving souls. There'd be a limited amount of time for your team to reach your body and bring you back to life, or else death claims you for real and you have to give up on the character. (Maybe you see yourself get devoured by a sluagh herd).


And giving the Melchiahs a quick spectral fade-out ability would be a nice tactical tool, used like Kain's mist form in BO1 or Raziel's passwall ability.

Raziel passwall was actually learned by devouring Melchiah's soul. And I think that there should be no references to the spectral realm (because no vampire knew about it) UNLESS the theory of master-creation link is confirmed. This way, Razielim could have a little connection with spectral ralm, and only them.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 20:30
It's always been there, in every era. Death guardians were always able to look into spectral. The vampires don't have to know about it, they'd just experience it and might not even remember it upon resurrecting, like a dream that fades from memory fast.

( And that's why the passwall would be a thing for the melchaihs, because it was their thing.)

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 21:55
It's always been there, in every era. Death guardians were always able to look into spectral. The vampires don't have to know about it, they'd just experience it and might not even remember it upon resurrecting, like a dream that fades from memory fast.

( And that's why the passwall would be a thing for the melchaihs, because it was their thing.)

I think that this idea is just unuseful. Vampires ressurecting would be too OP, and it would feel strange in the game.

(and so I said -.-')

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 22:23
It's a constructive idea of what I'd like to see in Nosgoth, which is the title of the topic.
"No complaining here" is also at the top of this page, which is closer to what you're doing.

The way it's useful is it gives the vampires their own version of rushing to heal someone, compared to the humans who would have medic kits or a magic healer class rushing to aid their fallen & almost-dead players.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:32
It's a constructive idea of what I'd like to see in Nosgoth, which is the title of the topic.
"No complaining here" is also at the top of this page, which is closer to what you're doing.

The way it's useful is it gives the vampires their own version of rushing to heal someone, compared to the humans who would have medic kits or a magic healer class rushing to aid their fallen & almost-dead players.

I am not complaining, just saing that your ideas wouldn't fit the game and telling you why, so you may have other ideas that fit u.u
About the vampires, I think they are too proud to "beg for help", and that's why I think there shouldn't be a healing class... Also, humans already have a class with healing skills, which is the alchemist.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 22:41
The vamps wouldn't be begging, they'd be immobilized (in the material world) and fending for themselves in spectral. They wouldn't have a healer the way humans do, which is why they'd need something else to substitute for that. (Like being unimpaled instead of healed).

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:43
The vamps wouldn't be begging, they'd be immobilized (in the material world) and fending for themselves in spectral. They wouldn't have a healer the way humans do, which is why they'd need something else to substitute for that. (Like being unimpaled instead of healed).

Being unimpaled wouldn't save anyone =P no vampire could live with a hole in himself =P

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 22:46
These necromantic vampires from Kain's empire can, all day long.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 22:47
These necromantic vampires from Kain's empire can, all day long.

-.-' enough discussing.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 23:08
Well yeah, there wasn't really a need for any of this intense scrutiny.

-------

For a battlefield idea, there's that huge networked system of caves with the subterranean chamber from SR2 at the center. There could be big open areas within the earth, re-imagined with odd & beautiful rock formations, mysterious temples etched into the walls of caverns; it'd be a place for infestation by Melchiahs (if they have any special ability to phase through earth). But it could also just be an awesome change of pace from the other battlefields.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 23:26
Well yeah, there wasn't really a need for any of this intense scrutiny.

-------

For a battlefield idea, there's that huge networked system of caves with the subterranean chamber from SR2 at the center. There could be big open areas within the earth, re-imagined with odd & beautiful rock formations, mysterious temples etched into the walls of caverns; it'd be a place for infestation by Melchiahs (if they have any special ability to phase through earth). But it could also just be an awesome change of pace from the other battlefields.

But how would humans get there? =P

Mortainius57
10th Oct 2013, 11:46
I think they should do a 30 days of night sort of thing for resurrecting vamps, ash pile vamp + freshly slain human blood = reborn again vampire plus it would give the vampires a vulnerability and a bit of emphasis on killing more humans to resurrect they're fallen. It would make it a bit more even and encourage a bit of team work and a bit more thought put into battles instead of running in wildly and getting murdered quickly.

ZeroFernir
10th Oct 2013, 13:00
I think they should do a 30 days of night sort of thing for resurrecting vamps, ash pile vamp + freshly slain human blood = reborn again vampire plus it would give the vampires a vulnerability and a bit of emphasis on killing more humans to resurrect they're fallen. It would make it a bit more even and encourage a bit of team work and a bit more thought put into battles instead of running in wildly and getting murdered quickly.

I still think that there should NOT at all have ressurection, neighter should humans. That would be heavly anti-game: the game is meant to be fluid... Waiting for someone to ressurect you would be tiring and not likeable at all.

LordNekronom
11th Oct 2013, 19:14
I still think that there should NOT at all have ressurection, neighter should humans. That would be heavly anti-game: the game is meant to be fluid... Waiting for someone to ressurect you would be tiring and not likeable at all.

true, but if you have a small window to ress a team mate, assuming he dies of a ressurectable cause, it would compel a certain type of team work and more carefully calculated gameplay from the human side as well to ensure you stay dead :D, could be like a mini game/challenge if you will, kill the vamp before he resses, also he won't be full hp when he does ress.

Stormbringer007
11th Oct 2013, 21:59
I just want to see team objective. Simple Team Deathmatch would get loathsome to play over and over again, while adding in some meaningful objectives add flavor and depth to the game. Doing something like capturing points of importance to the world of Nosgoth, destroying artifacts belonging to the Vampires and Humans respectively, or attacking/defending villages or crypts or wherever vampires live (as in take up residence, I know they don't live). I'd really like to see combinations of these objectives leading to a successful mission for a team of attacking vampires/humans versus defending humans/vampires. Similar to the way Team Fortress 2 is, but obviously tailored to the unique gameplay style of ranged versus melee in a human and vampire conflict.

diuqSehT
11th Oct 2013, 22:25
They could make the human players do horrible but necessary things like destroying the vampires' blood farms to strike at the vampires' food supply. This would mean the humans who were still free would have to kill the enslaved humans like a slaughterhouse if there wasn't time to rescue them. Too dark??? Probably.

Gryregaest
15th Oct 2013, 03:29
I kind of like the idea of the humans having some sort of messed up objectives. If for no other reason than to make the series finally cash some checks it's been writing since the beginning. Over the course series, characters repeatedly act as though vampire hunters, be it the Sarafan or Moebius' army or what have you, are bad people for what they do. There may have been ulterior motives that were less than virtuous, but I've yet to seen anything portrayed related to the actual vampire slaying that's been anything but completely justified. Adding some questionable actions related to the fighting of vampires might finally add some legitimacy to these claims.

Reidbynature
16th Oct 2013, 00:13
Doesn't Soul Reaver 2 largely deal with that? It shows Moebius' persecution of the vampires. Both with the Sarafan and his later ragtag vampire hunters. That's the game that turns Raziel from idolising the Sarafan to rejecting them, even slaying his Sarafan self and his brothers (again).

Gryregaest
16th Oct 2013, 04:50
It certainly shows that they kill vampires, but my point is that I fail to see the moral lapse. You can argue the adverse effects that the extinction of vampires might have on the pillars and the world at large, but so far as I know, none of the hunters themselves are cognizant of that.

Raziel can call it ruthless persecution all he wants, but this isn't some oppressed ethnic group we're talking about. These are vampires. They kill and feed on humans. It is essential to their continued existence. When you look at it from the perspective of the humans of Nosgoth, there isn't really a line where "defending yourself" crosses into "persecution", because every single vampire is a threat to the safety of human beings.

A grisly, violent task, certainly; but not an immoral one. Janos may be a friendly and pleasant man with Raziel, but if he murdered your family to drink their blood, you would probably form a very different opinion.

Denam_Pavel
16th Oct 2013, 05:52
Janos Audron was supernaturally sustained by his Guardianship of the Reaver as per SR2. For all we know he never killed a human save attempts to create vampire Guardians. And let's keep in mind that the dungeons of the Sarafan we filled to te brim with human prisoners.

Gryregaest
16th Oct 2013, 06:57
The bowls of blood Janos' home say otherwise.

I did forget about the human prisoners in Defiance - that's the kind of thing that would qualify as actually doing immoral things though.

Denam_Pavel
16th Oct 2013, 09:43
That doesn't have to be human blood. Janos specifically says he resides there alone. There's also the fact that the Sarafan attack Raziel who does not feed on humans just for looking weird. And prior to the creation of Kain Nosgoth was hardly plagued by vampires. Or at least much less so then it was plagued by the Nine themselves.

Jayayz
16th Oct 2013, 10:17
Hi everyone! :)
I thought if it should be included more female characters or the chance of changing genres.
I know there are alchemists and they have to be girls because they are a female-only sect, but what about the rest of humans and also the Vampire Clans?

Reidbynature
16th Oct 2013, 11:29
Hey if someone wants to deny a major point of SR2 then they are welcome to do so.

Lord_Aevum
16th Oct 2013, 14:04
Janos Audron was supernaturally sustained by his Guardianship of the Reaver as per SR2

Janos is not known to have been magically sustained by his title as the Reaver Guardian any more than Michael Jackson was sustained by his title as the King of Pop. He isn't linked to a Pillar and doesn't get any bonuses. It's just an honourific in his case.


And prior to the creation of Kain Nosgoth was hardly plagued by vampires. Or at least much less so then it was plagued by the Nine themselves.

It was.

"Nosgoth's vampire population increases." (http://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/8/85/SR2-BonusMaterial-Timeline-1.png)
"Long ago, vampires grew in such number as to capture the attention of the Circle. The Order of the Sarafan, or the "Angels of Light" as they were called, was instated to counter the menace. Thus, the "Vampire Purge" began." (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Omen:_Legacy_of_Kain/Transcript)
"Thousands of vampires killed." (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/reply/50801/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#reply-50801)

RainaAudron
16th Oct 2013, 16:05
Janos is not known to have been magically sustained by his title as the Reaver Guardian any more than Michael Jackson was sustained by his title as the King of Pop.

Mwhahaha, I laughed so hard xDDD but yeah, Janos is a vampire.. why would he need to be sustained by anything else than blood?

Reidbynature
16th Oct 2013, 16:14
Ha ha. Yeah, that one was very funny Aevum.

Tube_Reaver
16th Oct 2013, 16:24
Janos is not known to have been magically sustained by his title as the Reaver Guardian any more than Michael Jackson was sustained by his title as the King of Pop. He isn't linked to a Pillar and doesn't get any bonuses. It's just an honourific in his case.



Mwhahaha, I laughed so hard xDDD but yeah, Janos is a vampire.. why would he need to be sustained by anything else than blood?

This is where you are both wrong.
Janos IS the king of pop in Nosgoth, and therefore like the wraith blade (SR1) and the soul reaver (SR2) sustain Raziel.
The fans, groupies, and concerts sustained Janos.
You show me anyone else who can moonwalk whilst flying.


Back on topic, I am against the whole necromancer/resurrection idea, I just don't feel it fits with the game-play well enough.
If they ever did add a revive mechanic, it would have to be like in BF3 with a very short window in which to revive the player, and it should have a cooldown ontop of that, otherwise it may just get ridiculous.

Gryregaest
16th Oct 2013, 17:16
That doesn't have to be human blood. Janos specifically says he resides there alone.

Aren't we being a bit naive here? If vampires in Nosgoth could make do with animal blood, I feel like this whole conflict with humanity would probably not be an issue.

He lives alone, yes, but he's not incapable of leaving. The man does have wings, you know.


There's also the fact that the Sarafan attack Raziel who does not feed on humans just for looking weird.

The assumption on their part is that Raziel is a vampire. Which is a fair assumption. They aren't attacking him because he's blue and they're just can't stand that.


And prior to the creation of Kain Nosgoth was hardly plagued by vampires. Or at least much less so then it was plagued by the Nine themselves.

As has been stated, vampires clearly were a problem. But never mind the numbers. How many vampires out there murdering people are an acceptable amount? Vampires are not pandas. They are not an endangered species with a niche in the ecosystem. It is in humanity's best interest to see them rendered extinct.

I'm not sure why someone would defend vampires as some sort of social equals. They're monsters and that's one of the things I love about the series. The morally is all screwed up and honest about it; that's one of the things that makes the games special.

More on topic,


Hi everyone! :)
I thought if it should be included more female characters or the chance of changing genres.
I know there are alchemists and they have to be girls because they are a female-only sect, but what about the rest of humans and also the Vampire Clans?

(I'm assuming you mean genders, not genres.) I do like the idea of more female characters. LoK has always been a bit of a sausage fest. Offering male and female character models for classes would be a nice touch. Obviously, this wouldn't work for all of them, since as you noted, there is already an explicitly female-only class.

Vampmaster
16th Oct 2013, 17:36
You don't need to kill people just to get their blood. It wouldn't necessarily be a pleasant experience, but Janos could easily leave humans with enough blood to recover, much like Raziel was able to do with their souls. He could also target criminals or those who are a threat to other humans. The sarafan chose to attack him and other vampires, so he'd probably consider those to have brought it upon themselves.

Denam_Pavel
16th Oct 2013, 19:49
Janos is not known to have been magically sustained by his title as the Reaver Guardian any more than Michael Jackson was sustained by his title as the King of Pop. He isn't linked to a Pillar and doesn't get any bonuses. It's just an honourific in his case.


Mwhahaha, I laughed so hard xDDD but yeah, Janos is a vampire.. why would he need to be sustained by anything else than blood?

Jason: Until I alone remained... sustained only by my obligation to you, and by my guardianship of the blade.
Raziel: And the other nine? Why did their guardianship not sustain them?
Janos: I don't know.

Raziel did not take this as just Janos talking about his motivation. Nor did Janos respond with " because they were ******* that killed themselves for their false God."


It was.

"Nosgoth's vampire population increases." (http://images.wikia.com/legacyofkain/images/8/85/SR2-BonusMaterial-Timeline-1.png)
"Long ago, vampires grew in such number as to capture the attention of the Circle. The Order of the Sarafan, or the "Angels of Light" as they were called, was instated to counter the menace. Thus, the "Vampire Purge" began." (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Omen:_Legacy_of_Kain/Transcript)
"Thousands of vampires killed." (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/reply/50801/GLoK-Interviews-with-Amy-Hennig#reply-50801)

I was talking about Mobius' crusade. Before Kain travelled back in time Kain met Vorador who asked him "did you think you were the only vampire?"

They were already already rare for Kain to have such a notion. There were hardly thousands of them plagueing Nosgoth. Mobius needed to trick Kain into killing a popular figure for people to see the vampires as a threat again. And even then it was a mercenary army. Mobius had to pay everyone to do it too.

As for the Sarafan crusade their motivations have been retconned as of Defiance. It had ALWAYS been about Mortanius' and Mobius' revenge on vampires. The vampire menace didn't gradually come into the attention of the Nine leading to te creation of the Sarafan.


I'm not sure why someone would defend vampires as some sort of social equals. They're monsters and that's one of the things I love about the series. The morally is all screwed up and honest about it; that's one of the things that makes the games special.

Where is the moral ambiguity in the interpretations of the vampires being the straight up bad guys and Mobius and the Sarafan being legitamately about nothing but defending humanity?

Gryregaest
16th Oct 2013, 21:33
You don't need to kill people just to get their blood. It wouldn't necessarily be a pleasant experience, but Janos could easily leave humans with enough blood to recover, much like Raziel was able to do with their souls. He could also target criminals or those who are a threat to other humans. The sarafan chose to attack him and other vampires, so he'd probably consider those to have brought it upon themselves.

So "blood rape" instead of murder? That's not a whole lot better. And that's assuming that he can subsist on the amount of blood needed by just borrowing some here and there.

In regards to criminals and such, I don't think I'd care for a vampire playing judge, jury, and executioner with my society any more than I'd care for a human vigilante doing it.

We can rationalize reasons for Janos being a perfectly nice guy, but I still find this to be frightfully naive. I'm sure he didn't like being what he became - it was a curse after all, that's kind of the point - but he still continued to exist as what he was. He did, after all, have higher priorities, being the reaver guardian and all. But that wouldn't change how he was perceived by the humans of Nosgoth.


Jason: Until I alone remained... sustained only by my obligation to you, and by my guardianship of the blade.
Raziel: And the other nine? Why did their guardianship not sustain them?
Janos: I don't know.

I'm not sure how this statement gives you the impression that this frees him from his need for blood.


And even then it was a mercenary army. Mobius had to pay everyone to do it too.

Being a mercenary army doesn't necessarily imply a lack of motivation on the part of the participants. Moebius' army was, so far as we can tell, not attached to any particular nation or the standing army of one, and they were paid because they need to eat. This is enough to qualify an army as mercenary.


Where is the moral ambiguity in the interpretations of the vampires being the straight up bad guys and Mobius and the Sarafan being legitamately about nothing but defending humanity?

I never said Moebius and the Sarafan were legitimately about nothing but defending my humanity. My point was that for as much as the series likes to vilify vampire hunters, it represents fairly little actual evidence of their misdeeds. The sinister intentions are more at the top with people like Moebius. So if they'd include more content to justify these perspectives, I think it would help.

I also never said that the vampires were "straight up" bad guys either. But from a human perspective, they are bad guys. No doubt about it. And thus far, we are always playing as someone attached to their side. Hence the moral weirdness with our protagonists.

The_Hylden
16th Oct 2013, 22:49
The thing about the series is that no-one is pure good, or evil. It's how Blood Omen was envisioned, which is what set the stage for the rest of the series' tone.

We also must always remember that what we're hearing from Raziel is his own conclusions and reactions to things, and we know just how often he can be wrong. He sees killing fields of vampires and calls it ruthless persecution, but yes, to the humans they have to rid these monstrous vampires from the world, who feed upon them, in order to survive (and because of fear, of course). However, did they have to plant vampires upon stakes for all to see? Could they not have burned their bodies, or buried them? Perhaps they kept them staked there, many dismembered, for fear that they'd rise again from the earth if their bodies were buried. However, they could have cremated the bodies. This is a symbol of triumph, one you do to show the enemy. In that sense, and of course from Raziel's perspective, it would be persecution. From the human side, vampires are a plague that needs persecuting out of existence. Many were made righteous, or self-righteous in this holy cause, many were probably ruthless, many were probably doing it with a sense that they do need to cleanse the soul of these once humans to release them -- so they'd be doing it out of some sense of mercy. I am sure that they ran the gambit of reasons and motivations in order to get them through their job -- which was to kill. Even as vampires, these monsters they're hunting are mostly human, so I am sure it took some form of internal justification, even detachment, to keep doing such barbarous acts for many of them. And this goes for the Sarafan, who were more a holy order like the Templar Knights, as well as the Mercenary Vampire Hunter army Moebius puts together later. Many in each could be evil men, taking out their various desires to be ruthless, to kill, to main, to cause pain, etc., in this perfect job, or because they were cruel and callous people who just loved the money this job brought them. There are as many shades and stories to tell for each as there are stars in the sky, heh.



The humans were manipulated by Moebius, whose only intent was to rid the world of vampires to free the ambitions of his God in the EG. Moebius knew full well that the Pillars were meant to be sustained by vampires. He knew ridding the world of them would cause their final collapse and the ruination of the land.

Vorador has turned his back on a humanity that's treated him and his kind with such contempt. Is this justification for Vorador and the rest to slaughter humans so? To paint rooms with their blood and viscera, as we see in BO1? Of course not. There's nothing altruistic, or justified there. Nor is there any purity in Kain, Raziel, and the rest, in what they do to humans -- breeding and keeping them as a literal heard to be fed upon and slaughtered. Even elder Kain, as wise and understanding as he's become of destiny, fate, and how all have been manipulated, still treats humans with little regard. Actually, he has a dichotomy of reactions in Defiance. He meets a chained prisoner and, much like in BO1 when he learned from the broken chained girl of Nupraptor's whereabouts in his Keep, elder Kain treats the act of killing the imprisoned female in Defiance with an very visible sense of regret at what must be done. He's very gentle here, even though as he notes, from time to time, feeding is necessary. Yet, moments later when the Sarafan close a door on him, he berates all of humanity as pathetic. For Raziel and the Lieutenants Kain creates, it's a bit more understandable that they'd feel so superior. After all, their memory was wiped and all that they've ever known was being a vampire and that vampires are superior; humans are cattle. For Kain and Vorador, beings who were human to begin with and who still retain those memories, what they choose to be as vampires, how they mercilessly slaughter what once was their kind and revel in it often times, is completely unjustifiable.

But, they are more on the side of right in this world than the other characters, at least as we buy into the premise of the vampire's prophecy being the better way; and again these characters are anything buy shallow, so there's a lot of uncover from them.




As for Janos, the depictions of him and stories of him by humans are of a vampire that went down into Uschtenheim and fed upon those in the village. Obviously, the depiction of him is going to be more monstrous that he actually is, and we see that he doesn't hate the humans, even if they are rubbing out his kind (of the human-bred kind he engendered), but even so, the humans had to have gotten a glimpse of Janos coming into their village for a snack, or else they'd have no idea of what he was in the first place.


His statement about being sustained in his obligation and guardianship of the blade are just that -- he was motivated by each to stay there, in that spot within his Arie, guarding the blade, waiting for Raziel to show up there, and guarding the Fire Forge. Raziel would show up there, in particular, to imbue the blade in the Forge, so Janos had to remain there waiting for him. He's sustained by his faith, that Raziel would show. However, he says in the next breath he was starting to lose that faith. This is all that's said. Nothing in that role, that title, magically had to sustain him. Janos is immortal, after all. Even if he weren't to drink blood, he'd still exist, as we see in BO2. He wouldn't be pretty to look at any longer :p But, he'd still be sustained by the curse.



Now, this was entirely too long to write, but I hope that helps with perspectives.

diuqSehT
17th Oct 2013, 01:04
this was long, but I hope

What did it say? (kidding).
One reason for hoisting vamps up: if vampire hunting is anything like fishing, then every cocky kid in Nosgoth would be telling stories about how they killed a vampire whose teeth were "This big!" Lots of the stories would be made up to get in some barmaid's stockings. (So if you want to prove that your vampire hunting mercenary group is the real deal, you'd show off the proof that you actually got the kills you say you did. You'd hoist the corpses, and your legend would be verified and your fame would spread and your fee would rise the next time someone needed your services.)

Janos was sitting on the mother of all blood fountains, by the way. There must be some magic keeping blood fountains from coagulating and getting all stale, so his fire forge definitely had that going for it. That was a blood bunker you could live off of for hundreds of years, which he had and was prepared to do even longer. Then when he opens his mouth to speak his tone is all civilized. Ha. A bit of a contradiction. Maybe he keeps his animal side very compartmentalized because he's so ashamed of it. He tries to spend all his time being classy and above the bloodlust, so to keep up this illusion I'm guessing he harvests a years' worth of human blood in bulk all at once and then lives the next year drinking in solitude without ever having to hear the screams of humans from day to day because his blood lake stays perfectly preserved and ready for skinny dipping.

On-Topic:
should there be blood fountains in the vampire-owned territories? A place for a quick heal, like a strategic advantage (until humans captured the fountain and smashed it). Fountains could be limited to one use so people wouldn't spam them?

DX2014
26th Feb 2014, 10:06
An idea popped into my head this morning I thought was maybe worth sharing.

How about a 1v1 training/battle pit scenario, giving you the option to go against classes from your own faction.

This is a harsh dangerous world so it stands to reason battle pits might be used to test your mettle before venturing out on raids to take back a village for example.

Imagine Humans training against each other to make sure they have the skills to take a vampire down.
Whilst Vampires rend each other to pieces to assert their dominance over one another.
These two scenarios in a tight environment with the option of adding spectators..

Can I have some constructive criticism please?

Obisher
26th Feb 2014, 12:04
How about a 1v1 training/battle pit scenario, giving you the option to go against classes from your own faction.


I was thinking about something similar. And if it would be possible to implement then some locations, like Sanctuary of the Clans, could be added. Just imagine some kind of a team deathmatch between the vampire clans. Also, I believe it would be lore-friendly because it was stated in the lore posts that the vampire clans were at war after Kain's disappearance, and they united after they saw humans as a threat.

Sluagh
26th Feb 2014, 14:18
Hi everyone! :)
I thought if it should be included more female characters or the chance of changing genres.
I know there are alchemists and they have to be girls because they are a female-only sect, but what about the rest of humans and also the Vampire Clans?

I second that. It does still seem a bit of a boys' club still. There'd be no reason that some of the vampires wouldn't be female. In fact, I would have thought the humans would have been more likely to indulge in limiting the role of women, due to the fact the humans seem to have a fairly consistent "Medieval European-ish" agrarian culture throughout the series. You do see female Sarafan throughout the games, but as part of some kind of religious orders with vows etc. (although I think this might be implied rather than evident) that suggest a certain class-gender system, and probably quite misogynistic. Not only that - wouldn't more paranoid humans potentially link womanhood to blood, what with menstruation, child-birth etc. seeing them as more vulnerable? In BO 2 there was a lot of talk of "The Witch" (who turned out to be the Seer) a bit Monty Python and the Holy Grail style. You can imagine the Sarafan of that period taking a dire view of witches, or of females with power. The humans, particularly the Ironguard, of the Nosgoth era might think similarly. With female vampires that's not a problem - they are sterile and do not feature in reproduction. You could argue that a strongly militaristic clan like the Turelim might be against girls, on some kind of warrior pride basis, but I can't see that with the others. There were no obviously female vampires in the SR period, but the whole lot were so sexless in appearence, I don't think it matters, and it fits the devolutionary trajectory of vampires' reproductive organs (and associative features) being a bit superfluous.

I think I have waffled on about this before - 'pologies - but I feel quite strongly about it. You don't want to exclude/deter female gamers.

Other than that I would quite like, if I get a chance to Beta, maybe some kind of cinematic "you win" "you lose" sequence at the end, possibly involving staking, or evisceration...something jolly like that. I can understand with budgets and stuff though things can be difficult.

Monkeythumbz
26th Feb 2014, 14:46
I second that. It does still seem a bit of a boys' club still. There'd be no reason that some of the vampires wouldn't be female. In fact, I would have thought the humans would have been more likely to indulge in limiting the role of women, due to the fact the humans seem to have a fairly consistent "Medieval European-ish" agrarian culture throughout the series. You do see female Sarafan throughout the games, but as part of some kind of religious orders with vows etc. (although I think this might be implied rather than evident) that suggest a certain class-gender system, and probably quite misogynistic. Not only that - wouldn't more paranoid humans potentially link womanhood to blood, what with menstruation, child-birth etc. seeing them as more vulnerable? In BO 2 there was a lot of talk of "The Witch" (who turned out to be the Seer) a bit Monty Python and the Holy Grail style. You can imagine the Sarafan of that period taking a dire view of witches, or at females with power. The humans, particularly the Ironguard, of the Nosgoth era might think similarly. With female vampires that's not a problem - they are sterile and do not feature in reproduction. You could argue that a strongly militaristic clan like the Turelim might be against girls, on some kind of warrior pride basis, but I can't see that with the others. There were no obviously female vampires in the SR period, but the whole lot were so sexless in appearence, I don't think it matters, and it fits the devolutionary trajectory of vampires' reproductive organs (and associative features) being a bit superfluous.

I think I have waffled on about this before - 'pologies - but I feel quite strongly about it. You don't want to exclude/deter female gamers.

You definitely make some very good points here. :)

Monkeythumbz
26th Feb 2014, 14:50
An idea popped into my head this morning I thought was maybe worth sharing.

How about a 1v1 training/battle pit scenario, giving you the option to go against classes from your own faction.

This is a harsh dangerous world so it stands to reason battle pits might be used to test your mettle before venturing out on raids to take back a village for example.

Imagine Humans training against each other to make sure they have the skills to take a vampire down.
Whilst Vampires rend each other to pieces to assert their dominance over one another.
These two scenarios in a tight environment with the option of adding spectators..

Can I have some constructive criticism please?

While this sounds good in theory, I'm not sure it would work in practice given how specific each cklasses skills and abilities are. How would the Alchemist's light bomb affect a Human, for example - or how would Deceivers pretending to be other Deceivers work?

So yes, very good idea in theory, but I don't think our skill sets and abilities would support it I'm afraid.

Sluagh
27th Feb 2014, 23:21
You definitely make some very good points here. :)

Cheers muchly. Legacy of K is all about balance, after all :) I am looking forward to playing alchemist in Beta more than any I think, all that potential firepower. By the way, this may have already been answered elsewhere previously, but was there a plan to put in "veteran" outfits for the humies, as an equivalent to the human skins? Scars and war wounds might be quite a cool thing, although how well they'd work on a design level.

DemonicKnight1442
28th Feb 2014, 00:15
i have to agree i have ideas also that fit with a few changes myself just a small suggestion on next patch hunters and vampires should have a spot button so players can know where other players are. hawken did it so did alot of other games please put a spoting call in the game so it gives it more of a teamplay thing. people who don't have mics would love it alot for focusing down other enemy players. over all great game wish vampire class had a projectile class that uses range that way there isn't alot of hassle with hunters and their ranged weapons. maybe a vampire that can slow down enemies ? and can root em ? maybe something a bit more supportive ? like a female vampire that can give their hp for heals ? since you got alchemist that can heal players ? something to look into i am just makeing calls for this beta just from playing a few games i can see some downfalls in sum classes and maps. like more open maps and some that are more objective based. oh another thing adding small objectives that can boost players in game that effect the tide of the match. but over all vampires need sum buffs. like how tyrant can use a bit of reduction to damage. i have noticed the alchemists flames still do more damage even with the defensive buff for tyrant. maybe rework that defensive buff to allow you to attack while its active it gives it more of a useful skill for tyrants. the q move is brilliant don't change that for tyrant......tyrants should have a groundpound move where if you fall a certian feet tyrant does a groundpound staggering enemies that are near. just small tune ups would be nice. ummmm alchemist flames should be debuffed does way too much damage i can see why it would be dangerous for vampires but just a small damage reduction from that move would be nice. scouts are fine and so are hunters no change there as of right now that i can see.hope these comments help for the next patch in the future. look forward to this game still becomes F2P (free 2 play ) i can see it being that since it has alot of potential to the game. i love it reminds me alot of s4 league just a slight bit but with classes and awsome abilities and the lore of humans and vampires :D on that note hope this helps

DX2014
28th Feb 2014, 00:28
While this sounds good in theory, I'm not sure it would work in practice given how specific each cklasses skills and abilities are. How would the Alchemist's light bomb affect a Human, for example - or how would Deceivers pretending to be other Deceivers work?


I had yet to see what was in store with the deceivers, and had not considered the light bombs. The theory was something spurred from the fact there isn't a training mode available.

Taking into account 1v1 would only be possible if it were human vs vampire.
It's not impossible to imagine that humans might capture strays to pit against recruits, and definitely not below a vampire to play with their food in a similar manner.
Though this would maybe not be as interesting, and the deceivers pretend ability still wouldn't make much sense in this scenario.

Huge thanks for taking time to comment on my idea though, I really appreciate it. If I have any other Ideas I will try to work out more of the kinks first.

Thanks again.

Cynthric
9th Mar 2014, 08:49
Not sure if this has been suggested before but what about something like a "Legacy mode" similar to DC Universe's Legend pvp mode where you could fight as the leaders of the different vampire clans or human groups. Although I suppose it'd be kind of impossible to put in the leader of the Razielim unless people didn't mind a tiny bit of lore breaking for a single game mode simply to add some fun/fan service factor.

Another suggestion for a game type (although likely lore breaking but come on there's time travel and paradoxes in the lore) would be something like a mode where it's sort of 3 way fight. One side you have the human's team, another side you have the vampire's team, and then you have a single player as Raziel (wraith/soul reaver form) that would play sort of like a overpowered boss character and the winner could be decided by if one of the 2 teams kill Raziel and make the other team run out of lives or if the person playing as Raziel manages to survive long enough for the 2 teams to run out of lives.

Please don't burn me at the stake. Simply trying to suggest something that while it could be a bit lore breaking could make for some fun or interesting gameplay in isolated game modes.

Cellador
20th Mar 2014, 15:01
I'd love to see the Pillars of Nosgoth as an area but I was thinking the open space would be too much of an advantage to humans but maybe the pillars from Soul Reaver 1 could work (although I'm not sure this would fit in with the timeline of the game).

In my head I was thinking the central circle with the pillars and Kain's throne surrounded by a circle of raised and fallen platforms to give the vampires cover. Then in the 4 corners of the map, rooms with open ceilings so the vampires could attack from above. I did a very crude drawing on paint that I'll try to dropbox (please excuse my lack of artistic skill).

Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/lmpmgeag8fucsiq/Pillars%20of%20Nosgoth%20map%20idea.png

Vampmaster
20th Mar 2014, 15:21
The main pillar chamber is only one part of the sanctuary. It has an upstairs leading to a warpgate and around the back to the sarafan tomb and hallways all around it and a courtyard between there and the main gate. Plenty of things to climb on.

Gugulug5000
20th Mar 2014, 23:46
Although I suppose it'd be kind of impossible to put in the leader of the Razielim unless people didn't mind a tiny bit of lore breaking for a single game mode simply to add some fun/fan service factor.
They could always use Eskandor from the Nosgoth lore instead of Raziel. He's basically the new leader of the Razielim. Problem solved.

The_Hylden
21st Mar 2014, 00:15
As has been noted , the Sanctuary of the Clans is an impenetrable fortress, so humans waging a strike inside should be extremely unlikely. The team has also stated as much.

ParadoxicalOmen
21st Mar 2014, 00:56
I feel like i'm spamming, but it's 2 ideas i really liked...so i'll repeat it here:

- Make a game mode that includes the Clan Leaders as Playable characters...like ,for example, the "Dumah's last stand" idea, which we would play the famous battle in Ash City (mentioned in SR1).
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7435&highlight=Dumah+stand

- Make a game mode with coop aspects (players vs AI)

Vampmaster
21st Mar 2014, 01:29
As has been noted , the Sanctuary of the Clans is an impenetrable fortress, so humans waging a strike inside should be extremely unlikely. The team has also stated as much.

It's true that Raziel said "The doors of the Sanctuary were immovable,either barred from the inside or rusted shut", but when he gets inside later, we can see that the reason he couldn't open them was that the wall had collapsed behind them at some point while he was in the abyss.

The_Hylden
21st Mar 2014, 01:36
That wasn't what I meant. I meant it's nigh impenetrable because it's within the heart of the vampires -- their most prized and guarded area. It should be, at least.

Lord_Aevum
21st Mar 2014, 02:12
Well, by Soul Reaver, its defences are pathetic in comparison to other areas. A few portcullises, doors, and a Reaver barrier. None of the Lieutenants have bothered to station any troops there in a long time, apparently. There are a few teams of Dumahim, who I personally suspect are only there because of Kain's recent reappearance, on orders from him to frustrate Raziel on his approach.

This is not necessarily evidence that humans could have breached its walls 700 years prior, I can agree, but it does suggest the Lieutenants came to stop caring about, or stop prioritising, the welfare of the Sanctuary above their clan territories.

The_Hylden
21st Mar 2014, 06:18
By then, sure.

In this time period, I would hope that they do care. The lore posts do talk as if they're starting to question if Kain's returning, maybe. However, they're still acting as if they'd better not do anything to cross him. Letting the humans get to this point, to begin with, they seem to know would be akin to Kain as the father coming home to see what a mess of the house his sons have made. They should be extremely intent on cleaning this mess up before he does get home, heh. Letting humans into the Sanctuary would be letting the dogs make a mess on Kain's bed, lol

We can't have that!

The chamber to the inner throne room, where the Pillars are, is also sealed by the Reaver and by Kain's command, it seemed. Whether Kain left it like that now, or if he leaves it open, or if they have another means to open it, all is something only we can speculate on. My money is on that he keeps it sealed when he's not around.

AtlasBane
23rd Mar 2014, 00:27
I just want to see team objective. Simple Team Deathmatch would get loathsome to play over and over again, while adding in some meaningful objectives add flavor and depth to the game. Doing something like capturing points of importance to the world of Nosgoth, destroying artifacts belonging to the Vampires and Humans respectively, or attacking/defending villages or crypts or wherever vampires live (as in take up residence, I know they don't live). I'd really like to see combinations of these objectives leading to a successful mission for a team of attacking vampires/humans versus defending humans/vampires. Similar to the way Team Fortress 2 is, but obviously tailored to the unique gameplay style of ranged versus melee in a human and vampire conflict.

I agree with this. Playing deathmatch constantly is already getting a bit stale, and I'd love to see more complicated game modes. Siege is fun, but flavorful objectives would do a lot to spice up the game. It's part of the appeal of games like Chivalry, and gives them a lot of replayability.

0Exroath0
23rd Mar 2014, 14:29
Atm the only issue I have other than lack of content (Which will come its only closed beta atm) is that the skins feel very samey, They are differnt but they mostly look like a colour swap .. I think its due to them sharing the same body tbh.. Maybe the skins could have differnt heads? or differnt wings? I just think they need more variation between each skin thats all :S

Im enjoying the game alot however, New modes will be great but I would love to see some objectives on maps rather than just eat the little humans with their little toothpick throwers.