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Limed00d
26th Sep 2013, 11:41
Honestly, I was a bit disappointed when this was first announced. I too wanted a conclusion to the Legacy of Kain-epic, after the massive cliffhanger from Defiance. When I saw the trailer, I thought to myself "Man, this takes a huge dump of feces on the lore, what is the Razielim doing here, why is this even a thing". But I've been thinking about it and I can say now it doesn't seem that bad.

The negativity comes from the fact that people always wanted what I want too; a true Legacy of Kain sequel. What we got was something completely different. People hate changes. But we, the fans, are taking this too hard. I've seen a lot of posts on this and other forums that had the same opinion on the game as I had yesterday. We should stay positive, or at least neutral to this game. I've seen people slamming the developers and the game for not being consistent with the other installments in Legacy of Kain. Thing is, Legacy of Kain has never been consistent with itself.
We've seen a LOT of retcons take place in order for the story to progress up to Defiance. Besides, the game might not be canon, just like how most of World of Warcraft isn't canon to Warcraft. The gameplay looks nice and the characters look nice (although the Dumahim and the Turelim doesn't look like their SR1 counterparts).

What I'm saying is, relax. Take a step back and look at it from a different perspective. If you still don't like it, that's completely okay. Just remember that the Legacy of Kain-series aren't dead because of one multiplayer spin-off

lucinvampire
26th Sep 2013, 12:03
Good perspective there :D I have to say some of us from over at the Eidos forums went through all of this a while back (with the pre-release information) and I for one completely freaked out at first but after a while come to like the idea of this – yes its different but different can be good too! Right?

I have to say after getting the fantastic opportunity (with the other guys/gals) and spending the time at SE and getting the chance to play Nosgoth – I will say again to all fans of the series – PLEASE GIVE THIS A CHANCE because it is really enjoyable and fun. The developers are fans of the series – have worked stuff out and have played the games and they have thought about the lores. If you don’t believe me look some of them up (such as Jason Walker and see what he’s worked on previously!) or look at the threads on the LoK Eidos forum

I can’t wait to see the answers to the questions out in the ether and settle a few things – this game is awesome – though not what we wanted/expected but nonetheless its still cool. :D

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 12:09
I can just speak for myself, but consistency isn't my problem at all. I think the people, who are defending Nosgoth (which is fine!), have to understand, that people don't hate Nosgoth, just because they hate new things, but because Nosgoth is as far away as you can get from the original games. Yes, Soul Reaver isn't the same as Blood Omen and Blood Omen 2 and Defiance are different, too, but they were all great action adventure games with amazing characters and story - they had something in common. I personally wouldn't mind if they would have tried Dead Sun.

Think back at the Syndicate shooter and the new XCom and how bad they turned out. Hell, it even makes me angry when people of EA are looking at their bad Syndicate sales and asume nobody ist interested in Syndicate anymore, which is just a complete misunderstanding of their fanbase.
And yes, people got their RTS XCom, but after the fans had been very loud. I doubt that would have turned out well, when the fans just accepted the XCom shooter.

lucinvampire
26th Sep 2013, 12:31
@ Le_Don

I think fans have to keep in mind what Dead Sun would have probably been…the game play yes was in the same genre but would have messed with the story (from what has been said and leaked) – come on purchasable wings – really? Nosgoth however keeps in line with the lore but isn’t in the same genre.

I know it’s not what people wanted (yes – I want a continuation too) but IMO it’s the lesser of two evils…and it is pretty damn awesome - and we never know what the future holds! :D

...I'm sounding like a broken record so I'll go now.

Dagren
26th Sep 2013, 12:36
We've seen a LOT of retcons take place in order for the story to progress up to Defiance. Besides, the game might not be canon, just like how most of World of Warcraft isn't canon to Warcraft. The gameplay looks nice and the characters look nice (although the Dumahim and the Turelim doesn't look like their SR1 counterparts).

I couldn't disagree more on that point. The strength of the LoK series has always been integrating every part of the story (even the painful ones) by building around it rather than retconning.
Also what are you talking about: WoW is canon to Warcraft, but this has little to do with the matter at hand.

I kind of agree with you that the problem isn't the continuity, though. But is it okay because the corporate side of things decided to turn the multiplayer part of a new game into a full fledged game that no fan has ever asked for?
I agree some people go too far with their hatred, but it is easily understandable for the very reason you mentionned: everyone wants a true LoK game.

Who here would consider trying out this game if it didn't have "Nosgoth" for title? I'd say it is our right (and even our "duty", if we weren't talking about video games) as long time fans to make it clear it's not what we want for this series.
Because if you adopt the "I'll play it to support the series" mentality, then you're doing it wrong. In that case they'd just think we really like this kind of game in this series, so they'd give us another one.

But if you really love what you're seeing, then by all means, show and shout your support!
Opinions, folks!

RainaAudron
26th Sep 2013, 12:36
I agree with Lucin on Dead Sun... it got too many things wrong IMO... While I like the idea of returning to the core gameplay which SR had, however as George said, they realized it wasn´t probably the thing to go with in the end and at least kept Nosgoth.

AkiraEverhate
26th Sep 2013, 12:37
I will be giving this game a chance and that is a pretty big thing for me. I don't play MMOGs at all. I tried WoW one summer and called it quits after the free month. I want a single player game, but I realize that a LoK game like what I want is now a niche game. I have been with LoK since day one.

To keep me happy, the game better utilize the voice talent from the previous games. I don't care if it is just Simon saying "triple kill". In addition, I would like to see a true sequel in the future. Even a remake of the original blood omen would be awesome. What I don't want is just the Nosgoth game. I will be giving this a chance and will try my best to give them my support and money when the time comes in order to get the company the funds it needs to make my niche game.

RainaAudron
26th Sep 2013, 12:38
I think Nosgoth gives us a new chance to get a single player game in the future.

AkiraEverhate
26th Sep 2013, 12:40
I think Nosgoth gives us a new chance to get a single player game in the future.

Exactly! What we want is a niche game everyone. If we want it, we really should support a game that will draw in a lot of people. We all know that a game such as what Nosgoth will be is what the majority wants. Look at Mass Effect 3. I wanted a part three to the original Mass Effect. Instead I got a half that game and the real game they wanted to sell Mass Effect the MMOG.

Dagren
26th Sep 2013, 12:49
I want a single player game, but I realize that a LoK game like what I want is now a niche game.

Guys, I can't agree here. When have action adventure games become niche? They're not! Darksiders, the new Castlevania, Tomb Raider 2013 (even if SquareEnix won't admit it because they have completely unrealistic expectations) and a bunch of indie titles (Bastion, off the top of my head) have a really good market for them and were very successful!

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 12:59
@ Le_Don

I think fans have to keep in mind what Dead Sun would have probably been…the game play yes was in the same genre but would have messed with the story (from what has been said and leaked) – come on purchasable wings – really? Nosgoth however keeps in line with the lore but isn’t in the same genre.

I know it’s not what people wanted (yes – I want a continuation too) but IMO it’s the lesser of two evils…and it is pretty damn awesome - and we never know what the future holds! :D

...I'm sounding like a broken record so I'll go now.
There is a major problem in this. The people, who are defending Nosgoth, are attacking Dead Sun with the same arguments they are trying to talk down. I can give you the same arguments Limedood and other people used about Nosgoth, like changes aren't that bad, things have to evolve and how every other LoK is different to each other. That Dead Sun would have messed with the story is just speculation - maybe, but maybe it would fit the same how Soul Reaver fit with Blood Omen - and Nosgoth seems to be a little bit edgy with the original story, too.

I have the feeling, that Dead Sun as a single player game could have had the potential to surprise the players and in this case I think it's sad, how people doomed it, before they had a chance to play it. With Nosgoth on the other hand they are trying to release a competitive multiplayer game and I don't see that potential at all.

I'm not trying to ban Nosgoth or something like that. It's completely fine, when the developers want to work on it and players want to play this game and maybe even have fun with it. I guess I won't, because the gameplay concept doesn't sound very well to me, but that's fine, too :) (hell, I even signed up for the beta, to be sure I won't like or maybe even having fun after all). I'm just trying to explain how you should not misunderstand the people, who dislikes Nosgoth.


Who here would consider trying out this game if it didn't have "Nosgoth" for title? I'd say it is our right (and even our "duty", if we weren't talking about video games) as long time fans to make it clear it's not what we want for this series.
Because if you adopt the "I'll play it to support the series" mentality, then you're doing it wrong. In that case they'd just think we really like this kind of game in this series, so they'd give us another one.

But if you really love what you're seeing, then by all means, show and shout your support!
Opinions, folks!
Exactly that. Like I said, the people maybe wouldn't have get the XCom RTS, when they just accepted the shooter. It's not hatred, that is flamming the fuel, it's passion.

And if we talk about Nosgoth, then you aren't supporting the LoK franchise, but this F2P mutliplayer shooter. You might get a new LoK by supporting a game, which you may don't like, but chances are you are just getting more of the same.

lucinvampire
26th Sep 2013, 13:01
@ LordScythican – no Simon if I recall correctly from what was said over at Eidos forum – unless he’s been asked after him responding to the question of him being in a new game that is.

AkiraEverhate
26th Sep 2013, 13:04
Guys, I can't agree here. When have action adventure games become niche? They're not! Darksiders, the new Castlevania, Tomb Raider 2013 (even if SquareEnix won't admit it because they have completely unrealistic expectations) and a bunch of indie titles (Bastion, off the top of my head) have a really good market for them and were very successful!

Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 1.4 million units
Darksiders: 2.6 million units
Tomb Raider: 2.64 million units
World of Warcraft: 18.68 million units
League of Legends: 32 Million active players per month (12 Million Daily)



With numbers like that, action adventure games are becoming niche. It doesn't help that LoK is a niche franchise as well. MMOGs are where it is at.

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 13:05
For anyone wanting a sequel to Defiance may I point out that Amy Hennig works for Naughty Dog now, Tony Jay is no longer amongst the living, and it would likely be impossible to get many others who made the previous games so great. Even if we did break the laws of physics and assemble the dream team again, the chances of a sequel being more than a disappointment is slim considering how much time has passed.

It's a bummer we're left with a cliffhanger but perhaps it's best left a mystery.

I'd definitely welcome new games set in the universe without having to deal with the Legacy of Kain though. Maybe a new singleplayer adventure somewhere down the lines.

AkiraEverhate
26th Sep 2013, 13:06
@ LordScythican – no Simon if I recall correctly from what was said over at Eidos forum – unless he’s been asked after him responding to the question of him being in a new game that is.

That isn't good news. :(
I really need something from the franchise besides a couple name drops like Razielim.

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 13:12
For anyone wanting a sequel to Defiance may I point out that Amy Hennig works for Naughty Dog now, Tony Jay is no longer amongst the living, and it would likely be impossible to get many others who made the previous games so great. Even if we did break the laws of physics and assemble the dream team again, the chances of a sequel being more than a disappointment is slim considering how much time has passed.
But they aren't the only people, who can make great games and it hasn't to be an exact copy of the old games. Changes are indeed very welcomed. I don't see why a new LoK has to be a complete recap of the old or a F2P online shooter. This is a very large spectrum ;).

Dagren
26th Sep 2013, 13:30
Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 1.4 million units
Darksiders: 2.6 million units
Tomb Raider: 2.64 million units
World of Warcraft: 18.68 million units
League of Legends: 32 Million active players per month (12 Million Daily)



With numbers like that, action adventure games are becoming niche. It doesn't help that LoK is a niche franchise as well. MMOGs are where it is at.

I'm sorry, but are you out of your mind? How do you make 2 million+ copies a commercial failure?
The thing is, there is only one WoW and one LoL, but for how many failed attempts at copying them? While there is a market out there (god, 2million+ copies sold!!!) for action adventure games, especially when you have teams that are experienced at developing such titles.

I mean, I haven't looked much into it so I'm not sure, but have SquareEnix/Psyonix any experience at developing competitive multiplayer games?

Oh and by the way your numbers are incorrect, Tomb Raider has passed 4 million copies some time ago (and I remember hearing 5 but I can't find that source right now).

lucinvampire
26th Sep 2013, 13:36
@ LordScythican – I know how you feel Simon is legend – but if it makes you feel any better he did say he’d love to do another game!
I would like a lot more nods to previous games also…let’s hope.

Rynfear
26th Sep 2013, 13:40
Guys, I can't agree here. When have action adventure games become niche? They're not! Darksiders, the new Castlevania, Tomb Raider 2013 (even if SquareEnix won't admit it because they have completely unrealistic expectations) and a bunch of indie titles (Bastion, off the top of my head) have a really good market for them and were very successful!
She said LoK, not action-adventure games, which are another discussion. Thing is, a sequel has this giant impenetrable barrier called "explaining what the hell happened so far" that new players will find cumbersome to wade through. We're talking about hours of research, at minimum, just to understand the story. It's not something someone can casually pick up and play, hence the niche comment. We are the niche; the longtime fans of the series that have been with it since the beginning.

I didn't like Dead Sun btw. The premise and the idea behind it were both dumb and uninspired, and it's not the future of Nosgoth that I was envisioning. The idea that it "dealt with religion" was just a promise and there was nothing to go by to give it credibility that it actually explored that theme in a deep enough way.

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 13:40
But they aren't the only people who can make great games, and it hasn't to be an exact copy of the old games.

Absolutely, and thus we have Nosgoth.

It's not what anybody had in mind but it doesn't make it a bad game. I completely welcome more Nosgoth games and hope that this won't be the last. All I'm saying is perhaps Kain's personal story should be laid to rest.

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 13:44
Absolutely, and thus we have Nosgoth.

Please quote the full posting ->


But they aren't the only people, who can make great games and it hasn't to be an exact copy of the old games. Changes are indeed very welcomed. I don't see why a new LoK has to be a complete recap of the old or a F2P online shooter. This is a very large spectrum ;).

Dagren
26th Sep 2013, 13:46
She said LoK, not action-adventure games, which are another discussion. Thing is, a sequel has this giant impenetrable barrier called "explaining what the hell happened so far" that new players will find cumbersome to wade through. We're talking about hours of research, at minimum, just to understand the story. It's not something someone can casually pick up and play, hence the niche comment. We are the niche; the longtime fans of the series that have been with it since the beginning.


Alright I'll quote myself: a post I wrote some time ago on eidos forums:

read it there (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1924321&postcount=193)



I don't understand all these people who say SE would need to reboot the franchise in order to bring newcomers into it.
We finished Raziel's story arc with the last game. That was the part that would have been tough to explain to newcomers, had we had to finish it. But it is over and there is no need to explain it.
At this point, what's important to know about the story? That Kain's been healed from his corruption thanks to his old lieutenant Raziel and that he needs to restore the Pillars, kill a God and deal with the Hyldens one way or another?
It's not hard to explain that much in a new game. Want to know how he was healed? Go play the goddamn Raziel story arc (and you will if you enjoyed our new game!)

I mean, there are a lot of games with a huge backstory. The thing is, you don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of it to enjoy the story that is presented in the game. You'll dig into the backstory if you enjoyed the story, not the other way around.

As for characters being dead:
1) That's not true.
2) Introduce new characters. We are in a new arc of this story: imagine the possibilities... several compelling Hylden characters... humans, too (why not use the Priestess that was cut from Soul Reaver?). Not too hard, right? :P

Rebooting stuff is just admitting we cannot be arsed to create something new and creative. But I suppose since every entertainment company does it these days people have come to accept it.

...

Edit: Thinking about it, a reboot would be rather ironical for this game series. One of its strength is integrating and explaining a lot of rough story elements (I'm looking at you BO2) into the overall story. And we should thank Amy Hennig (and her crew) for that. Other companies/authors would just retcon the hell out of it. Reboot is just the biggest retcon of them all :P

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 13:55
Please quote the full posting ->

That's what I don't get, nobody says it has to be. It just is.

Also the Legacy of Kain title was wisely dropped.

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 14:14
That's what I don't get, nobody says it has to be. It just is.
There is just a huge different between making some changes to a franchise and evaluate it or just making something complete unrelevant to it. Yea, LoK don't have to be an action adventure, so why not making a science fiction galaxy flight simulator or a Cyberpunk tetris game? Nobody says it can't be. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but the next LoK is indeed a f2p online shooter, which is already a far stretch from the old games.

And yes, they dropped the LoK titel, but for what different when they call it Nosgoth and trying to appeal to the LoK fans? Why not making it unrelevant to LoK, when the game itself is so great and why risking this whole heat? I mean I don't think nobody is realy surprise how the fans are reacting right now.

It's funny how George said Dead Sun was the wrong game for the wrong time (if I remember right), but I guess Nosgoth would be more accepted besides a "real" LoK game and it was indeed just the multiplayert part of this "real" game.

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 14:31
There is just a huge different between making some changes to a franchise and evaluate it or just making something complete unrelevant to it. Yea, LoK don't have to be an action adventure, so why not making a science fiction galaxy flight simulator or a Cyberpunk tetris game? Nobody says it can't be. Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but the next LoK is indeed a f2p online shooter, which is already a far stretch from the old games.

Neither a cyberpunk tetris game or sci-fi flight sim would be representative of the universe that LoK is set in. A team based arena game of vampires vs humans with medieval/steampunk technology is.

I know you weren't looking for an actual answer but there it is. Nosgoth may be a far departure mechanically, but lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.


And yes, they dropped the LoK titel, but for what different when they call it Nosgoth and trying to appeal to the LoK fans? Why not making it unrelevant to LoK, when the game itself is so great and why risking this whole heat? I mean I don't think nobody is realy surprise how the fans are reacting right now.

You just hit on a good point. Why risk taking this heat when you're not even going to use the LoK title? We can't really use the excuse of the publisher/developer milking the fans, else the title would be shouted from the rooftops. Maybe the answer is honest. The devs could legitimately be fans of the series but just don't feel they could do LoK justice with an adventure game, instead they stuck with what they know and created a game using the license but made it a spin-off instead.

It's not what we wanted, but why should that stop them?

Also, hopefully this could pave the way to another Nosgoth game more similar to the old adventure games.

MrMilky
26th Sep 2013, 14:57
lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.

Because it doesn't even use any aspects of the LoK games, at all? :D
Take a Super Mario Game without any Super Mario characters. No Luigi, Peach, Bowser and call it a "Super Mario game" simply because you play as one of the bad mushrooms and the gameplay is to walk around the pixels. Hey, it fits the lore, no? Seriously, such argumentation makes me speechless sometimes.
Such an argument is also futile "It fits because it was never filled" doesn't compensate for the fact that it's tremendously different from the narrative story-driven gameplay as would the walking on pixels be tremendously different from the platformer such as Mario is.

AkiraEverhate
26th Sep 2013, 15:05
I'm sorry, but are you out of your mind? How do you make 2 million+ copies a commercial failure?
The thing is, there is only one WoW and one LoL, but for how many failed attempts at copying them? While there is a market out there (god, 2million+ copies sold!!!) for action adventure games, especially when you have teams that are experienced at developing such titles.

I mean, I haven't looked much into it so I'm not sure, but have SquareEnix/Psyonix any experience at developing competitive multiplayer games?

Oh and by the way your numbers are incorrect, Tomb Raider has passed 4 million copies some time ago (and I remember hearing 5 but I can't find that source right now).

It is not that I disagree with you. I am not the one saying 2 million+ copies is a failure. That is what a developer believes to be a failure. Look at it like a TV show. A show that gets 1-3 million viewers per week is considered a failure. Many really good shows that were considered a niche TV show were canceled because they merely had a few million viewers. Where as TV shows that have 25 million+ viewers per week are considered a success and will warrant addition money to make bigger and better episodes. Rubicon on A&E had a little over 1 million viewers per week and was canceled, whereas The Walking Dead season one has close to 6 million viewers. Rubicon a way better show was considered a failure and canceled. The Walking Dead was a success and was given more money that has brought the show to getting close to 12 million viewers per week.

As for numbers being wrong sorry. I was using VGchartz and only looked at the xbox 360 sells. I left out the PS3. But you are right, it went over 4 million which in my opinion puts the game closer to a safe zone to warrent more development. However, I believe that this is mainly due to the multiplayer aspect of the game. If it didn't have MP I bet the game wouldn't have sold more than 2 million, which like I said before is considered a commercial failure. The same goes for games like Mass Effect 3 and Uncharted 3. Multiplayer sells games and it is getting to the point where what we want in a game is going the way of the dodo.

I don't like it. I really don't but I am not fighting it anymore. A 2 million+ unit sold game is not worth the effort to many game developers.

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 15:20
Because it doesn't even use any aspects of the LoK games, at all? :D

Other than the setting and lore which fits a lot better than Blood Omen 2 ever did.

Stop making it seem like gameplay mechanics are the only thing that matters. If they are then I could find tons of Legacy of Kain games for you. Nintendo practically fart them out each generation, they call them Legend of Zelda.


Take a Super Mario Game without any Super Mario characters. No Luigi, Peach, Bowser and call it a "Super Mario game" simply because you play as one of the bad mushrooms and the gameplay is to walk around the pixels. Hey, it fits the lore, no? Seriously, such argumentation makes me speechless sometimes.

What? How on Earth do you consider this a good comparison or argument? For one, let me stress this for you, the game is called Nosgoth. There is no Legacy of Kain title here. You cannot compare it to a Super Mario game without Mario because Mario's name is in the title. If he was completely absent, the title would be a misnomer. You can't make the same argument for Nosgoth, it's set in Nosgoth.

Also there's been "Mario" games that have been completely different from the mechanics of the original. Lots of them. From Super Mario Kart to Luigi's Mansion. Why can't the world of Nosgoth get the same kind of treatment? Does every game set in the world have to be an adventure game?

YourWaywardDestiny
26th Sep 2013, 15:36
If we stop raging for a second and think of it differently, this game becomes a wealth of new opportunity: Nosgoth is a world with inhabitants other then the cast of the Legacy of Kain series. SR2 and Defiance were little neculous stories based on what Raziel, Kain and Co did, but BO1, SR1, and even BO2 gave us a glimpse of that.

I can't have been the only one running around in SR1 and wondering how the Human Citadel really operated, or eves dropped on characters having a conversation in BO2. This is a world rife with other stories to tell; just a quick run through of BO1 tells us that. There are characters, secrets, cults, wars, and loads of other things to explore. Why should we hate so much on a game that begins to capitalize on that fact?

Maybe this game will satisfy our lust for blood the same way watching Kain munch on Sarafan did in Defiance, while maybe the next game set in the universe will satisfy our lust for story telling. Who knows? Maybe there'll be one about Vorador next. Why are we all so negative about something we love being resurrected?

Blackykun
26th Sep 2013, 15:52
This is a world rife with other stories to tell; just a quick run through of BO1 tells us that. There are characters, secrets, cults, wars, and loads of other things to explore. Why should we hate so much on a game that begins to capitalize on that fact?

Thats the reason for the negativity. How does a team vs team mmo allow us to experience said stories? Its not like it has hope for solar profits (what has? The video game market is effectively a dry tomb) so this idea that Nosgoth will pave the way with gold for a better, more story focused game is kind of hard to believe.

Damn, its not like you need a game to make a good game. You need to make a good game. If its good, new fans will come anyway. This talk of Nosgoth putting the IP back on the map is ludicrous. Those who care about it never 'left' in the first place, those who will come to care about it in the future will only do so if there is in-line quality to have and enjoy.

Oh man I cant wait. Remember when Fallout 3< people rant about how the old games are ****, worthless and look terrible? Here we go again.

Blackykun
26th Sep 2013, 15:52
This is a world rife with other stories to tell; just a quick run through of BO1 tells us that. There are characters, secrets, cults, wars, and loads of other things to explore. Why should we hate so much on a game that begins to capitalize on that fact?

Thats the reason for the negativity. How does a team vs team mmo allow us to experience said stories? Its not like it has hope for solar profits (what has? The video game market is effectively a dry tomb) so this idea that Nosgoth will pave the way with gold for a better, more story focused game is kind of hard to believe.

Damn, its not like you need a game to make a good game. You need to make a good game. If its good, new fans will come anyway. This talk of Nosgoth putting the IP back on the map is ludicrous. Those who care about it never 'left' in the first place, those who will come to care about it in the future will only do so if there is in-line quality to have and enjoy.

Oh man I cant wait. Remember when Fallout 3< people rant about how the old games are ****, worthless and look terrible? Here we go again.

The_Reaver
26th Sep 2013, 15:54
All I say to my friends and people who read my blog is:

Give Nosgoth a try. Don't close the doors to Nosgoth. They are complaining so much before playing it.
I know that George and all the teams on Square-Enix and Psyonix are working hard to create a great game. It's their job.

Blackykun
26th Sep 2013, 16:00
All I say to my friends and people who read my blog is:

Give Nosgoth a try. Don't close the doors to Nosgoth. They are complaining so much before playing it.
I know that George and all the teams on Square-Enix and Psyonix are working hard to create a great game. It's their job.

Its the job of every game developer, its the base minimum they have to do.

And yet we're not exactly drowning in blockbusting opuses of excellence now are we? (Not talking about Enix, but in general)

Le_Don
26th Sep 2013, 16:07
Neither a cyberpunk tetris game or sci-fi flight sim would be representative of the universe that LoK is set in. A team based arena game of vampires vs humans with medieval/steampunk technology is.

I know you weren't looking for an actual answer but there it is. Nosgoth may be a far departure mechanically, but lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.
Well, it would fit the LoK universe, if you would name one space ship Raziel and another one Kain. Then you can sell it as a re-imagination or a re-interpretation of the LoK universe. It's not that hard to make some connections to the series and with that in mind you can sell anything related to LoK. I think this is pretty much happening with Nosgoth.

I do believe that the developers are indeed huge fans of the franchise and I won't forbid them to make this game at all (well, not that I could ;)). But I really wonder if this whole concept isn't just an awful idea to begin with.



Also, hopefully this could pave the way to another Nosgoth game more similar to the old adventure games.
Not this argument again. First of it's just cheap to lure people into buying and playing a game, they might not be interested in, just because maybe there could be a new game of the franchise, these people care so much. I'm personally not interested for Nosgoth itself and I don't see why I should support a F2P online shooter, which would make this online shooter bigger and could even lead to a Nosgoth 2, but not in a LoK. Maybe you are getting a new LoK, but maybe not or maybe more of what you don't want. Right now I have the impression, that it might help the franchise more by not supporting the game and instead make a clear and loud shout of what you want - but I don't want dictate other people, what they should do and if you want to have fun with Nosgoth, please do that!

YourWaywardDestiny
26th Sep 2013, 16:14
Thats the reason for the negativity. How does a team vs team mmo allow us to experience said stories? Its not like it has hope for solar profits (what has? The video game market is effectively a dry tomb) so this idea that Nosgoth will pave the way with gold for a better, more story focused game is kind of hard to believe.

Damn, its not like you need a game to make a good game. You need to make a good game. If its good, new fans will come anyway. This talk of Nosgoth putting the IP back on the map is ludicrous. Those who care about it never 'left' in the first place, those who will come to care about it in the future will only do so if there is in-line quality to have and enjoy.

Oh man I cant wait. Remember when Fallout 3< people rant about how the old games are ****, worthless and look terrible? Here we go again.

We don't know what kind of story element we're going to be dealing with. As of yet, the viciousness of combat for the father series, LOK, was a tad... Lacking. And that's just sad for a game about blood-thirsty vampires. Tapping into the truly visceral isn't a bad thing, here. The story of good old-fashioned death and decay and war and awfulness. An MMO gives us the scope of the conflict. What better to explain how Nosgoth became so utterly ravaged then by a massively multiplier online game?

See, this is what I mean. The stories in Nosgoth aren't always going to be as flowery or dramatic as Raziel's or as fate-rendering as Kain's. Sometimes we just need to be reminded this isn't an Ann Rice novel. This is Nosgoth, and all we need to know about our Lady Nosgoth is declared in the opening of Blood Omen. "There is a magical operation of maximum importance: the initiation of a new aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a word, the whole world must be bathed in blood." So why can't we just happily bathe Nosgoth in blood for a while?

Blackykun
26th Sep 2013, 16:36
We don't know what kind of story element we're going to be dealing with.

Completely right, also irrelevant because the real question is what kind of story can there be in a f2p arena based MMO shooter?

L4D isnt exactly a masterpiece of literature. And I get it, Nosgoth isnt LoK, but why dig out an IP that is famous for its narrative, story and acting... And then absolutely not give a damn about it? You cant even develop any attachment to the characters like in say TF2.


flowery or dramatic as Raziel

Which starts with being thrown into a lake of acid. How flowery indeed.

MrMilky
26th Sep 2013, 16:56
What? How on Earth do you consider this a good comparison or argument?

It's ok if you don't see the comparison. I've had discussion with worse. The real question is what you make out of it so let's see


For one, let me stress this for you, the game is called Nosgoth.
Mr. obvious. Also another obvious thing, no, you don't play any strategic sim game. You play a PvP set in a very small timeline, obviously chosen because of the resources which were a leftover from a much bigger project. So don't go blind on the fact that this isn't what people expect from the LoK title. You don't PLAY entire Nosgoth. You don't have entire history at disposal. Nothing. It's like naming a game "UNIVERSE" and then all that you play is a small solar system. So give me a break with such argumentation.
It's like having Tomb Raider without Lara Croft, but set in the same universe and instead to play what's essential for what Tomb Raider games are famous for, you play FOOTBALL. Yeah, it's that bad. You're obviously not that of a gamer to really tell the difference so I'll leave it at that.


There is no Legacy of Kain title here.

And remind me why is that a good thing? :lol: You're a riot!


You cannot compare it to a Super Mario game without Mario

Yes I can and I did :rolleyes: and it's obvious that it's effective since you got the point even while you're completely forgetting that your argumentation is bluntly put : futile.


Also there's been "Mario" games that have been completely different from the mechanics of the original.
And tell me how you've played them all and you think of them as something that's completely solid. They made a game out of a plumber, a star, mushrooms and a typical princess stereotype, but these devs can't make a proper sequel by hiring Simon Templeman or Amy?
Do you realize why all the arguments fail in comparison when a simple question is asked :
"Why this game" And the CM states "Because we want so and we think it's fun"? Now THAT is a lack of argument, not what you accuse me for.


Why can't the world of Nosgoth get the same kind of treatment? Does every game set in the world have to be an adventure game?

Oh, oh, I'm sorry? Were there bazillion of LoK games as of lately? Did anyone, even remotely, think or believe that a PvP arena is a solid choice for a rich narrative story-based game?
There was clearly NO support nor even a talk with dedicated fanbase for where the game should go. Nothing. It was taken just like that "As a game" and nothing more. So, if you want to play "just a game", be my guest and play Nosgoth. Nobody's stopping you. But if you want to tell me that this is on the same parallel as LoK titles, pal, you have a long way to learn what's art.

So let's go back to this idiocy :


lorewise it fits as well as any other LoK game.

"LORE" - In Nosgoth, the game, terms it is the description. Change the "LORE" at the top into "DESCRIPTION" and of you go.

Rynfear
26th Sep 2013, 17:28
Alright I'll quote myself: a post I wrote some time ago on eidos forums:

read it there (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1924321&postcount=193)

I disagree with the post you wrote. There are still 2 Blood Omen games and half of Defiance which still involve Kain, nevermind his indirect involvement in the entire series. Take a game like the 2004 Dark Prophecy (I think it was called) that would have old Kain assaulting Hylden fortresses and helping the younger him deal with time shenanigans. Raziel is an integral part of the series, but even if you handwave him off with a short explanation you still have the Pillars, the Elder God, the Hylden, the Ancient Vampires, Future Nosgoth and all the lore surrounding them.

Dagren
26th Sep 2013, 20:43
I disagree with the post you wrote. There are still 2 Blood Omen games and half of Defiance which still involve Kain, nevermind his indirect involvement in the entire series. Take a game like the 2004 Dark Prophecy (I think it was called) that would have old Kain assaulting Hylden fortresses and helping the younger him deal with time shenanigans. Raziel is an integral part of the series, but even if you handwave him off with a short explanation you still have the Pillars, the Elder God, the Hylden, the Ancient Vampires, Future Nosgoth and all the lore surrounding them.

So, the Blood Omen games involve Kain. But what is there to know? that the Pillars were created by the Ancient Vampires to lock away their enemy race? That each Pillar has a guardian and that since Vampires can't give birth humans came to inherit the Pillars? That the enemy race plotted and made the Pillars corrupt, condemning the land to decay? That Kain was supposed to be the Balance Guardian and he was corrupted from birth but turned into a Vampire in a desperate attempt to match an ancient prophecy and restore the Pillars and the world? That after having been manipulated by the enemy race and the ancient Vampire god who all want him dead he said f*** you to the world and decided to rule over its decaying corpse? That he eventually found a way to restore himself?

I'm sorry, but I've had games with manuals full of backstories far more complicated than that. The story in the game, if presented correctly can be interesting to a newcomer, who hopefully has a functioning brain and can place things together. If there is a point he's curious about (and yes it shouldn't prevent him from understanding the overall story presented in the game), he'll go to a wiki or check out the older games. Heck it's how I entered into a lot of game series, LoK included.

There are other games, and successful ones at that, that had this "problem". I mean you can enjoy Starcraft 2's story even if you haven't played the first installement. And the two games are a decade appart.

I think people thinking it's impossible to make a continuation of the story just underestimate people's deductive and cognitive abilities. The Pillars, the Elder God, the Hylden are original, yes, but they still follow recognizable tropes that a normal person could still piece together.
These people are also forgetting that a part of the market just enjoy digging into the lore of a game and put more value into the story of a game than its gameplay.

So I'll state the important part of my previous post again:
"You don't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge of it to enjoy the story that is presented in the game. You'll dig into the backstory if you enjoyed the story, not the other way around."

TonyRex
26th Sep 2013, 21:43
Honestly, I was a bit disappointed when this was first announced. I too wanted a conclusion to the Legacy of Kain-epic, after the massive cliffhanger from Defiance. When I saw the trailer, I thought to myself "Man, this takes a huge dump of feces on the lore, what is the Razielim doing here, why is this even a thing". But I've been thinking about it and I can say now it doesn't seem that bad.

The negativity comes from the fact that people always wanted what I want too; a true Legacy of Kain sequel. What we got was something completely different. People hate changes. But we, the fans, are taking this too hard. I've seen a lot of posts on this and other forums that had the same opinion on the game as I had yesterday. We should stay positive, or at least neutral to this game. I've seen people slamming the developers and the game for not being consistent with the other installments in Legacy of Kain. Thing is, Legacy of Kain has never been consistent with itself.
We've seen a LOT of retcons take place in order for the story to progress up to Defiance. Besides, the game might not be canon, just like how most of World of Warcraft isn't canon to Warcraft. The gameplay looks nice and the characters look nice (although the Dumahim and the Turelim doesn't look like their SR1 counterparts).

What I'm saying is, relax. Take a step back and look at it from a different perspective. If you still don't like it, that's completely okay. Just remember that the Legacy of Kain-series aren't dead because of one multiplayer spin-off

Completely agreed with what you said. I was also disappointed to see a Legacy of Kain TPS game. But hey! This is a non canon spin off after all. There is no need to worry about it. Let's just enjoy it.

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 21:46
Am I the only one that thinks the war and the gameplay itself is the story? It's kinda of short sighted to think that there's just absolutely no way for a story to be told in a game like Nosgoth.
It wasn't what I was expecting, but I think it looks like fun, and I'm going to trust the good people bringing us this game to know what they're doing.

ZeroFernir
26th Sep 2013, 21:52
I bet most of you aren't in the group on facebook "A new Legacy of kain Game - Please Square Enix!" but there the people are all very exited about this game. It won't be a classic game, but it's ideal for recruiting new fans to the series, so maybe the later idea of having a reboot or a new game becomes more rentable.

TonyRex
26th Sep 2013, 22:09
I bet most of you aren't in the group on facebook "A new Legacy of kain Game - Please Square Enix!" but there the people are all very exited about this game. It won't be a classic game, but it's ideal for recruiting new fans to the series, so maybe the later idea of having a reboot or a new game becomes more rentable.

Must be the innocent people who haven't had the chance to play the original LoK games. And na, I stay away from those kind of groups. Youtube, steam and ign are my preference when it comes to information related to gaming.

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 22:47
Youtube, steam and ign are my preference when it comes to information related to gaming.
Youtube.....Youtube
Youtube is one of the actual worst places I can think of to get game information. Most people posting videos are probably fine, but the comments are enough to make the video not even worth it. And I don't appreciate the implication that someone can't be a long time fan of LOK and still be excited for Nosgoth. It smacks of the beginning of a flame war.
Could we not have that here? Thanks.

ScionOfBalance
27th Sep 2013, 01:45
I can break down whats in my opinion the source of my disappointment and concern, and this is more than likely shared by a lot of you who are long-term fans of the series, and perhaps this will help shed some light on the situation.
___________________________
A decade has passed since the last game left us with a hopeful cliffhanger, despite what amounted in the eyes of the industry was an average game, we the fans were looking forward to what would likely be the end of the story in a release that was sunk 6 months into conceptualization and development. Most of the community didn't hear much if anything about it until much later, and the amount of material is staggering, driving it home especially with the reasoning why the publisher axed it, theres a degree of both soured attitudes and lack of faith, that theres going to be a continuation. As years have passed we've discovered another game that was axed which was "Dead Sun" which was going to be a spin-off, some-how it was to have a connection with the games in the mythos and was poised to hopefully be a spring-board for a resurrection of this beloved franchise. That game too was axed and this FTP game so far it appears, is in names and vague mythos outlines only, is trying to attach itself to the series. Digging into the background of "Dead Sun" its obvious that Nosgoth was meant to be a multiplayer component WHICH IS FINE, but why is it that a story in it's entirety has be axed in favor a Vampires VS Humans --- Tribes FTP game addition that wasn't meant to stand on it's own? Does Square-Enix have problems placing faith in the fan-base when we've been hungry for something new for so long, and think that these tiny scraps will make the decade of wait and disappointment worth it?

Taking this matter seriously is a by-product of the times when it comes to the gamer-community, without us there would be no gaming industry as it is today because in the end we feed into it.

I feel some how that SquareEnix has forgotten a good deal about that.

There are tons of websites dedicated to this franchise of(many of you are even contributors)archives of axed content, shrines to the mythos, all we're in the end asking is some faith placed in the truth that WE WANT A NEW GAME, and not something supplementary.

In short : Square Enix, STOP CANCELING THE GAMES WITHOUT GIVING US A CHANCE TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE. You can't expect to get anything back from the community without giving us a chance to see whats developing, basing your judgments on PROJECTED figures does nothing but show you have no confidence that we care. If we don't take this seriously, then in the end our indifference will just bury the franchise in the grave of mediocrity and wasted opportunities.

I would hate to think this new title is just a way to see how many people even care anymore about the series, rather than looking up the plethora of community driven sites and forums for a change. Recruiting new fans or not, this series deserve something better than cancellations and watered down spin-offs.

Driber
27th Sep 2013, 12:50
Yeah that 2.6M figure was way off - TR9 already surpassed 4 million copies just over a month ago.

So it was a big commercial success. I personally don't care what a former SE CEO said on his way out... :whistle:


Stop making it seem like gameplay mechanics are the only thing that matters. If they are then I could find tons of Legacy of Kain games for you. Nintendo practically fart them out each generation, they call them Legend of Zelda.

Hey now, don't go dissing Zelda!


Not this argument again. First of it's just cheap to lure people into buying and playing a game, they might not be interested in, just because maybe there could be a new game of the franchise, these people care so much. I'm personally not interested for Nosgoth itself and I don't see why I should support a F2P online shooter, which would make this online shooter bigger and could even lead to a Nosgoth 2, but not in a LoK. Maybe you are getting a new LoK, but maybe not or maybe more of what you don't want. Right now I have the impression, that it might help the franchise more by not supporting the game and instead make a clear and loud shout of what you want - but I don't want dictate other people, what they should do and if you want to have fun with Nosgoth, please do that!

Well then don't support it if you're so cynical about it.

Why are you still here then? :scratch:


Must be the innocent people who haven't had the chance to play the original LoK games. And na, I stay away from those kind of groups. Youtube, steam and ign are my preference when it comes to information related to gaming.

Why would you stay away from a FB group that's set up for the sole purpose of getting another LOK game?

Isn't wanting another LOK game the purpose why you are here right now?


Youtube.....Youtube
Youtube is one of the actual worst places I can think of to get game information. Most people posting videos are probably fine, but the comments are enough to make the video not even worth it. And I don't appreciate the implication that someone can't be a long time fan of LOK and still be excited for Nosgoth. It smacks of the beginning of a flame war.
Could we not have that here? Thanks.

THANK YOU.

88chaz88
27th Sep 2013, 12:59
Hey now, don't go dissing Zelda!

I'm not, I'm saying that mechanically the LoK series is Zelda. Seeing as I'm a big LoK fan I'd take it as a compliment to the Zelda series.

MasterShuriko
27th Sep 2013, 14:19
I never thought of the Lok Games as a zelda game =S
I honestly thought and compared other puzzle games to Lok

Rexidus
27th Sep 2013, 15:15
Wow, people are WAY too critical of this game. With what we've seen so far this game seems to be far more respectful to the lore and setting than Blood Omen 2. It's trying something new and something that is interesting.

Games complain that game publishers never try anything new and peoples reactions here are proof why. A lot of you are childishly refusing to try something new. Very little is known about the game yet you damn it. Why not let the game come out and judge it for what it is rather than what you wanted it to be?

Dagren
27th Sep 2013, 15:52
Games complain that game publishers never try anything new and peoples reactions here are proof why. A lot of you are childishly refusing to try something new.

I hate to make posts like that, but here goes:
Indeed game publishers never try anything new: they are always giving us free to play arena games these days while some genres are left rotting in the dirt. Sure there are some cool ideas in Nosgoth, but that's hardly innovative.



Why not let the game come out and judge it for what it is rather than what you wanted it to be?

Fair enough. But as responsible consumers we have the right to let them know when we don't agree with what they are doing with the franchise. That said, as I stated before there is no need for the display of rage and hate and threats we're seeing in some parts, it only adds venom to the conversation.

Driber
27th Sep 2013, 16:47
I hate to make posts like that, but here goes:
Indeed game publishers never try anything new: they are always giving us free to play arena games these days while some genres are left rotting in the dirt. Sure there are some cool ideas in Nosgoth, but that's hardly innovative.

How many games are out there that are exactly like Nosgoth?

Dagren
27th Sep 2013, 18:21
How many games are out there that are exactly like Nosgoth?

Ahah. Exactly, none of course. But any class based team deathmatch shooter (Quake & mods, Unreal Tournament & mods, Team Fortress 1 & 2) would come close enough, right? Then there would be Chivalry, War of the Roses, and third person mobas like SMITE and the other one whose name espaces me (the bad one with greek gods).
So you add equipment & gear unlockable system like in any MOBA or FPS these days. Toss the LoK IP on top and tada you have Nosgoth.

As I said, it has some cool ideas, but don't tell me that a class based team deathmatch game is innovative.

Swagraven
27th Sep 2013, 20:18
I've seen a shocking amount of people who claim it isn't consistent with LOK lore, and back their claims up with things they've assumed for years. They assume humans are pretty much useless, and would never, ever be able to wage one last desperate war. They assume Kain killed all the Razilim, and then promptly get their panties all in a knot because they show up. People are even more steamed about how they look. I've had to tell people again and again what the word "beta" means.
Either way, if the story of the war must be told, I think this is one of the better ways to do it. Rather than having a kind of LOK RTS game, or a Dynasty Warriors type game, I would much prefer to be playing against someone who I'm not going to mow down in one swipe. I just think a LOK RTS would be a terrible idea in general.
Just think about it...or don't...

The_Hylden
27th Sep 2013, 20:34
Yes, a lot of those assumptions I've been explaining actually are false, but it's a shame that perceptions still are out there that they are messing up the lore. There are plenty of reasons to criticize, like the appearance of vampire classes, which can be rectified. Stuff like that, or depth to the gameplay, more classes, balance to the game, etc. -- these are things that the game should be critiqued for. I also certainly would prefer an intro story cutscene, or story happening in the game, progression that's felt in story cinematic rewards, etc. Plenty left to want changed, but where they placed this war and the validity of it within the lore is not one of their faults. They did make this work. Dumah and his clan were decimated by a human uprising. The Citadel remained unblemished; hunters were out and about in SR1 somehow surviving, so the humans held their own as best they could and this is a great opportunity to showcase just how they did it, if done right...

Endentros
27th Sep 2013, 20:41
i think that this is going to be a good game but i didn't play them n stuff but i'm going to play them. i heard that square enix is a good gaming company and personally i love steam so those two is from what i think a great combination in graphics, gameplay and storyline but don't take my word for it and play it, and can someone tell me where i can download the other games

Swagraven
27th Sep 2013, 20:48
There's an epic potential to this game if they can do it properly, and I'm excited to see how it pans out. I trust the good people at Psyonix to make it fun, at the very least, since they have so much experience with multiplayer games, and so far it's actually lore friendly, so I'm interested to see if they can put a story tell element into the game that everyone seems so sure can't possibly be included in the game. (Never mind that the war you're fighting is the story...)

Mnkymn89
27th Sep 2013, 21:00
i do agree with you that all the negativity is a bit much and i had a slightly different perspective than you. like you and probably everyone else i wanted a continuation of story left open at the end of defiance and was slightly disappointed when they announced this wasnt going to be. however i was still optimistic since a LOK multiplayer had me intrigued along with the hope that if this game does well we may get the game we've been waiting for. then after seeing that trailer im more excited then ever! the gameplay looks incredibly fun! i also dont an issue with the lore as a recall they dont say when raziels clan is wiped out and the different apparance of dumahs and turel clan can be due to the fact that the members of the clans evolved years after their masters. and dont they say kain basically locks himself into his palace for years?

Swagraven
27th Sep 2013, 21:15
and dont they say kain basically locks himself into his palace for years?
Basically they say they haven't seen him outside of the Citadel, if I remember correctly.

Le_Don
28th Sep 2013, 08:34
Well then don't support it if you're so cynical about it.

Why are you still here then? :scratch:
I wrote it in the quoted part: I think it's better to say anything instead of nothing. Either way I'm here to share my opinion, which may be not very positive, but I guess you can't blame me your having a different opinion than most of you.


How many games are out there that are exactly like Nosgoth?
Not many, but Nosgoth isn't that unique, as it reminds me personally of Natural Selection 2, the Aliens vs Preadator multiplayer parts and sort of Left 4 Dead.



Yes, a lot of those assumptions I've been explaining actually are false, but it's a shame that perceptions still are out there that they are messing up the lore.
I have to admit. I guess the lore is the least problem, that Nosgoth has and with that I mean the same points you are reffering in your posting.

Rynfear
28th Sep 2013, 10:02
How many games are out there that are exactly like Nosgoth?

What areas does Nosgoth innovate in?

Driber
28th Sep 2013, 10:04
Ahah. Exactly, none of course. But any class based team deathmatch shooter (Quake & mods, Unreal Tournament & mods, Team Fortress 1 & 2) would come close enough, right?

Not really.

Those games don't have vampires, you can't fly in those games, you can't climb walls, etc.


Then there would be Chivalry, War of the Roses, and third person mobas like SMITE and the other one whose name espaces me (the bad one with greek gods).
So you add equipment & gear unlockable system like in any MOBA or FPS these days. Toss the LoK IP on top and tada you have Nosgoth.

Sounds like NG is borrowing from all kinds of games, mixing things up, and introducing new aspects to it. So you still can't say that NG is exactly like 20 other games out there.

If you're looking for an entirely new genre that has never ever been done before in the history of videogames... well, good luck with your search then :whistle:


As I said, it has some cool ideas, but don't tell me that a class based team deathmatch game is innovative.

Straw man argument.


I wrote it in the quoted part: I think it's better to say anything instead of nothing. Either way I'm here to share my opinion, which may be not very positive, but I guess you can't blame me your having a different opinion than most of you.

I'd never blame anyone for having (different) opinions. But what I don't get is you A) are not interested in NG, and B) will not be supporting it, so why continue to say that the game shouldn't be made and that people shouldn't support it?

Let's say for example someone at SE listens to you and they DO cancel NG after already having been publicly announced. Do you seriously think that such an action would bode well for the future of the franchise?

Don't get me wrong, I'm saying "get in line or GTFO", I'm merely trying to understand people like you, is all :)


Not many, but Nosgoth isn't that unique, as it reminds me personally of Natural Selection 2, the Aliens vs Preadator multiplayer parts and sort of Left 4 Dead.

That doesn't sound very abundant then.

TimeStreamer
28th Sep 2013, 10:25
I have not read the whole thread yet so some of these comments may have been covered but I agree with some people who may be disappointed, I understand like the rest of you, we would love to see the epic saga continue, playing as Kain as he continue his "legacy" but don't forget everyone, its been an incredibly long time since the LoK games have been visited, and theres a lot of new gamers coming to the market, I think the direction this game is going, fast paced multiplayer is a BRILLIANT way to get new gamers interested in the universe that is Nosgoth. I almost guarantee that people who play this game when it releases will think, "this is pretty cool world, I want to know more!" and will pick up the other games, and spread the word and maybe then, when the time is right we will see the next step in the Nosgoth history.

I disagree that this game damages the lore in any way, infact reading what were given this game fits perfectly. It fits between Raziel being cast in, and Raziel returning to kill his brothers. Theres a huge gap of centuries, if not millennia where we don't really know what happened and this story fills us in. It makes sense that the humans wouldn't just fall without putting up a fight and that without Kain, the clans will do battle, we know this from the old games so whats really changed? The game on the lore page says the Razielim are "remnants" so we can assume that lorewise, this makes sense, and perhaps by the time Raziel comes back their all gone or so few and far between your not likely to see one.

If anything, this game makes sense of some of the lore, I mean, lets face it we don't know all that much about humans in the old soul reaver, they had crossbows and flamethrowers but it would be interesting to learn more about them. This game gives the devs a chance, and the players both old and new to step into Nosgoth as a world and do some exploring and I for one wont be looking a gift horse in the mouth so to speak, this is a great gift to anyone who loves the old games.

Le_Don
28th Sep 2013, 12:23
I'd never blame anyone for having (different) opinions. But what I don't get is you A) are not interested in NG, and B) will not be supporting it, so why continue to say that the game shouldn't be made and that people shouldn't support it?

Let's say for example someone at SE listens to you and they DO cancel NG after already having been publicly announced. Do you seriously think that such an action would bode well for the future of the franchise?
Well, I have to correct some details. First I never said Nosgoth shouldn't be made - I'm just saying maybe this whole concept is a bad idea. I'm a developer myself and I would fell bad, if their project may get cancelled or when the guys are getting death threads like the guys of Black Ops 2 and so on - that's a shame. But just because I'm a LoK fan doesn't mean everything is great, just because LoK is somewhere in it. Second I never dictated anyone, what they are supposed to do. I did mention it in a posting of mine, that it is absolutly fine when people support Nosgoth and even have fun with it - please, do it, if you feel like! I'm again just guessing, that it is maybe better not to so or at least not just silently accept it, as the developers won't never know what they customers want, if they don't speak up and that is the part, I tried to explain to you earlier (which I don't mean in an assaulting way). In the end all the people, who speak up against Nosgoth, want to make a sign of what they want and that is a new, "real" LoK game.

Beside that I guess I overwrote it in my previous post, but I want at least give Nosgoth a chance and try out. Still I'm very sceptical, but I guess nobody can blame me for being that.


Don't get me wrong, I'm saying "get in line or GTFO", I'm merely trying to understand people like you, is all :)
You forgot a "not", didn't you ;)?


That doesn't sound very abundant then.
I never said it would be - it just not *that* unique ;) (which is not a bad thing, btw).

Dagren
28th Sep 2013, 13:07
Not really.

Those games don't have vampires, you can't fly in those games, you can't climb walls, etc.


Okay add Brink to the list for the parkour stuff. But that's not my point.



Sounds like NG is borrowing from all kinds of games, mixing things up, and introducing new aspects to it. So you still can't say that NG is exactly like 20 other games out there.

If you're looking for an entirely new genre that has never ever been done before in the history of videogames... well, good luck with your search then :whistle:

I wasn't saying Nosgoth isn't unique or uninspired, it's just that MP arena games (especially designed around a F2P business model) is a genre that is kind of a bandwagon nowadays, where every publisher tries to have a hand in it.

When I said that I was answering to Rexidus who said:

Gamers complain that game publishers never try anything new and peoples reactions here are proof why
In that context I don't think the genre Nosgoth competes in is "anything new", as it is a crowded genre.
That's all.

Wraithblade6
29th Sep 2013, 19:00
Wait. I thought Nosgoth takes place *after* Raziel kills all his brothers?

Not that it matters, really.

Wraithblade6
29th Sep 2013, 19:13
But more to the story of what's going on lorewise during the game... We know at some point, all the clan leaders are going to die and somehow Kain and Raziel are going to cause the corruption to be lifted from the world. Humans and vampires, for as much as they kill each other, aren't going to be able to survive without each other. You see, eliminating the Vampires would pave the way for Hylden to return, and they DO NOT need human blood to live. I don't think humans alone could defend Nosgoth, but they have no idea Hylden even exist. I also have no idea if Demons also want to claim the world for themselves, so maybe we have a 4th party waiting to jump in on the action.

Even and after the world gets cleansed, which we are counting on, purified vampires are still going to have to deal with humans and with defending the world from interdimentional invaders. Are there going to be pillars again? Guardians? Some new kind of chosen superguardian? Does Henning want to keep coming up with this stuff? how can players get in on the story? Will there be raids? Can opposite factions talk to each other? Can they ally with each other?? Can a player ally with the opposite faction? Become a vampire? Maybe players can 'assist' the risen Raziel as he takes out his bros... like a re-enactment of SR1.

Vanyelxp5
29th Sep 2013, 20:04
Wow, people are WAY too critical of this game. With what we've seen so far this game seems to be far more respectful to the lore and setting than Blood Omen 2. It's trying something new and something that is interesting.

Games complain that game publishers never try anything new and peoples reactions here are proof why. A lot of you are childishly refusing to try something new. Very little is known about the game yet you damn it. Why not let the game come out and judge it for what it is rather than what you wanted it to be?

Blood Omen 2 was perfectly respectful to the lore and the setting. It is what Kain saw when he was busying having a seizure/migraine after pulling the Soul Reaver out of Raziel's chest in order to keep him from being sucked in at the end of Soul Reaver 2.

Kain even tried to warn Raziel so that nightmare wouldn't happen, but Raziel passed out before the warning could be delivered, and then faded away into the spirit realm for many many years.

"My god! The Hylden! We walked right into their trap... Raziel! Janos, must stay dead!"

Reidbynature
29th Sep 2013, 20:06
@Wraithblade 6. None of that is really a concern for Nosgoth. It takes place between Raziel's execution and his rebirth. Nosgoth takes place in a specific time period where we generally have an idea of what happened. We won't be seeing anything other than a simple war between humans and vampires. No Hylden or anything like that. No worries about the corruption etc because the events play out as shown in previous games for the most part.


Blood Omen 2 was perfectly respectful to the lore and the setting. It is what Kain saw when he was busying having a seizure/migraine after pulling the Soul Reaver out of Raziel's chest in order to keep him from being sucked in at the end of Soul Reaver 2.

Yes, I agree.... Blood Omen 2 was a bad headache. :whistle: ;)

Wraithblade6
29th Sep 2013, 20:15
Hm. Well I'd be rather disappointed if it were just about pvp.

Vanyelxp5
29th Sep 2013, 20:18
They said there would be story time too. Missions where you side with either humans, or vampires.

I'm hoping that one of these missions is attacking Dumah's fortress and stabbing him with spears to paralyze him.

Wraithblade6
29th Sep 2013, 21:05
I hope they will make that a pve instance.

Reidbynature
29th Sep 2013, 21:08
I haven't heard anything other than a 4 vs 4 team (with the possibility of 6 vs 6) in arenas. No explorable world, no chance for pve as far as I'm aware.

Abolist
30th Sep 2013, 19:32
I just want SR3 that ties it all up and ends it. I don't mind this game so much but it does not carry much of my interest. I invested to much of my time in adventure games to be interested in what seems to be a simple wait in que multiplayer game.

Limed00d
30th Sep 2013, 19:45
I just want SR3 that ties it all up and ends it. I don't mind this game so much but it does not carry much of my interest. I invested to much of my time in adventure games to be interested in what seems to be a simple wait in que multiplayer game.

There won't be a "SR3" because Raziel's arc is done.

Vampmaster
30th Sep 2013, 19:55
There won't be a "SR3" because Raziel's arc is done.

I hope it stays that way too. What Amy creates, she can also destroy! No one needs to meddle with his story in a reboot or otherwise. Besides, the very first thing Raziel said when he became a wraith is that he would choose oblivion over that existance. He was finally allowed to rest in peace.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 19:57
No one needs to meddle with his story in a reboot or otherwise.

Gasp! No HD re-release with a free collectible bobble head??? Blasphemy!

Driber
30th Sep 2013, 20:16
Well, I have to correct some details. First I never said Nosgoth shouldn't be made - I'm just saying maybe this whole concept is a bad idea.

Isn't that much of the same, though? Especially considering you actually said "horrible" earlier, which is much stronger than just "bad".


I'm a developer myself and I would fell bad, if their project may get cancelled or when the guys are getting death threads like the guys of Black Ops 2 and so on - that's a shame. But just because I'm a LoK fan doesn't mean everything is great, just because LoK is somewhere in it. Second I never dictated anyone, what they are supposed to do. I did mention it in a posting of mine, that it is absolutly fine when people support Nosgoth and even have fun with it - please, do it, if you feel like! I'm again just guessing, that it is maybe better not to so or at least not just silently accept it, as the developers won't never know what they customers want, if they don't speak up and that is the part, I tried to explain to you earlier (which I don't mean in an assaulting way). In the end all the people, who speak up against Nosgoth, want to make a sign of what they want and that is a new, "real" LoK game.

Well I didn't say that you are *dictating* what people should think, but you cannot deny that you *were* trying to influence their opinions, suggesting that people shouldn't support it because that is supposedly "better" for the franchise.

But we can agree to disagree on that point. What I think is more constructive is to come up with alternatives to make people's opinions heard on the desire for a SP LOK game, *without* having to boycott NG :)


Beside that I guess I overwrote it in my previous post, but I want at least give Nosgoth a chance and try out. Still I'm very sceptical, but I guess nobody can blame me for being that.

Great :)


You forgot a "not", didn't you ;)?

Whoops, indeed I did. LOL, that makes quite the difference, doesn't it :D


I never said it would be - it just not *that* unique ;) (which is not a bad thing, btw).

Okay, so thus far people here were only able to come up with a *few* other games that may be getting close to NG. That tells me that while NG may not be super unique in some aspects, there is still not too much saturation in the market of vampire MP F2P games :)


Okay add Brink to the list for the parkour stuff. But that's not my point.

Be that as it may, my point stands that you can't say there are a million games exactly like Nosgoth out there. We can talk genre saturation, but I never find that a good argument, because if something is good, it's good, and to me it doesn't matter how many other games in the same genre may be out there; if people want to play it, that's all that counts, IMO.


I wasn't saying Nosgoth isn't unique or uninspired, it's just that MP arena games (especially designed around a F2P business model) is a genre that is kind of a bandwagon nowadays, where every publisher tries to have a hand in it.

Which is not a bad thing, btw. Devs go where the interest of the gamers lie. If a particular market is doing well, why not try to get a piece of the action.


When I said that I was answering to Rexidus who said:

In that context I don't think the genre Nosgoth competes in is "anything new", as it is a crowded genre.
That's all.

Well, if you want to go full circle and go back to what Rexidus said, then my rebuttal would be that he didn't even *claim* that NG is using a unique genre.

He simply said that the devs want to try something new for the LOK franchise. And you definitely cannot claim that a F2P MP game is something the LOK franchise has been long known for, can you ;)

Vampmaster
30th Sep 2013, 20:17
Gasp! No HD re-release with a free collectible bobble head??? Blasphemy!

A HD re-release isn't a reboot as the only thing to change is the graphics quality.

Rexidus
1st Oct 2013, 17:13
To be honest the vitrol on these boards has turned away from the forums. I'm very interested in the game but there are only so many times I care about someone ranting and frothing at the mouth over the number of fingers someone has... I honestly feel badly for the developers that the reaction has been so overwhelmingly vile for fairly unimportant issues...

Hyrosauce
1st Oct 2013, 17:44
People need to realize that LoK was DISCONTINUED. Production on it was ceased, which I explain in my other topic exactly why. These developers are doing us all a favor by bringing it back into the gaming industry. There was never going to BE another LoK game until they came along. They are reviving the series as best they can, and they are giving it to us for free. I've been keeping an eye on this game since the speculations first arose about a War for Nosgoth domain. They even let out a statement before the announcement warning us that it wasn't your traditional LoK game. If you guys chose to ignore their warnings, perhaps that is your fault. This is a new era of LoK. Let's all try to keep an open mind here.

AlterRequiem
2nd Oct 2013, 01:59
I think Nosgoth gives us a new chance to get a single player game in the future.

finally someone who understands the world

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 03:48
I think the vitriol on this board has calmed down considerably. Mostly, people are offering constructive criticisms and when voicing about the vampires' looks, trying to do so because they care, not to lump on the developers.

Also, I wouldn't exactly call what the vampires do in the game "parkour." ;) I don't think parkour is slamming your claws into stone and hurling yourself inhumanly on top of buildings. Using the body gracefully to climb things, yes, but no parkour person can climb a solid wall of stone 20+ feet tall without some other geometry around to spring off of, for instance. Nor is it jumping twenty feet in the air and slamming into the ground, or lunging the length of a city block from rooftops onto someone like lions pouncing on prey ... or swooping down from the air. Etc.

Dagren
2nd Oct 2013, 08:19
Okay, so thus far people here were only able to come up with a *few* other games that may be getting close to NG. That tells me that while NG may not be super unique in some aspects, there is still not too much saturation in the market of vampire MP F2P games :)

Be that as it may, my point stands that you can't say there are a million games exactly like Nosgoth out there. We can talk genre saturation, but I never find that a good argument, because if something is good, it's good, and to me it doesn't matter how many other games in the same genre may be out there; if people want to play it, that's all that counts, IMO.

Which is not a bad thing, btw. Devs go where the interest of the gamers lie. If a particular market is doing well, why not try to get a piece of the action.

The thing is, I'm not sure Nosgoth has what it takes to keep people interested in it. A lot of the games I mentioned are pretty much dead as we speak. And they weren't bad. The audience they might have attracted have left for newer titles in the genre, not necessarily because they prefer the newer games, but because their friends/the hype train have moved on to them.
There is tough competition. Granted there aren't many games like Nosgoth, but just as they weren't many games like Brink, War of the Roses and the other ones I mentioned.
And there are games out there and coming up that have a lot more going for them than team deathmatch, like objective driven modes and so on.

At the end of the day, granted, I don't know much about Nosgoth (hell, I've seen one short trailer), so it might still surprise me.
But as it stands, there are other releases that are coming up that have me a lot more excited to play with my brothers/friends over the internet. While I'm starved for a good action adventure game on my pc to play on my own

AlterRequiem
3rd Oct 2013, 08:39
Nor is it jumping twenty feet in the air and slamming into the ground, or lunging the length of a city block from rooftops onto someone like lions pouncing on prey ... or swooping down from the air. Etc.

if it were, i would have started parkouring a long time ago. rofl

Sam250
3rd Oct 2013, 13:42
While I'm starved for a good action adventure game on my pc to play on my own

Please. Dishonored, Bioshock Infinite, The Last of Us, Tomb Raider, dmc, GTA V, Darksiders II, Mass Effect III, Far Cry III, Bastion, Saint's Row IV, Assassin's Creed III, Max Payne, all came out since 2012 — and these are just the popular, action focused, PC available ones, not even touching on more RPG or puzzle adventure games or console exclusive releases. Next year we'll have Castlevania: Lords of Shadow II, Thief, Batman: Arkham Origins, Watch Dogs, The Evil Within, and who knows what other awesome stuff. And don't tell me you've played all the great action adventure games of past years, either. I doubt there has ever been a period when awesome action adventure games haven't been made. Those experiences have always been popular. Find some new series to get absorbed into.

LifeSnatcher
3rd Oct 2013, 13:47
Please. Dishonored, Bioshock Infinite, The Last of Us, Tomb Raider, dmc, GTA V, Darksiders II, Mass Effect III, Far Cry III, Bastion, Saint's Row IV, Assassin's Creed III, Max Payne, all came out since 2012 — and these are just the popular, action focused, PC available ones, not even touching on more RPG or puzzle adventure games or console exclusive releases. Next year we'll have Castlevania: Lords of Shadow II, Thief, Batman: Arkham Origins, Watch Dogs, The Evil Within, and who knows what other awesome stuff. And don't tell me you've played all the great action adventure games of past years, either. I doubt there has ever been a period when awesome action adventure games haven't been made. Those experiences have always been popular. Find some new series to get absorbed into.

The only problem here is that we will play an online game. I don't see the connection between single player games and mmo's. A story ? Maybe, but in single player games you will try 100 times and finally you will pass the "boss, npc's" etc. , here i can kill you over 100 times and i will change my style every time.

Sam250
3rd Oct 2013, 14:13
I think you've misunderstood. Read what I quoted again. Dagren is looking for single player action adventure games.

ZeroFernir
3rd Oct 2013, 16:16
Every single soul is talking about that. Why don't we just drop the subject and wait to see how things go on? That would be really nice... after nosgoth is finally release, I think it would be worthy to comment on the subject again, but for now, it's useless. They won't stop developing Nosgoth for another game like the original franchise. If we are lucky, after making nosgoth, they start over to work on the series.

Driber
3rd Oct 2013, 17:08
The thing is, I'm not sure Nosgoth has what it takes to keep people interested in it. A lot of the games I mentioned are pretty much dead as we speak. And they weren't bad. The audience they might have attracted have left for newer titles in the genre, not necessarily because they prefer the newer games, but because their friends/the hype train have moved on to them.
There is tough competition. Granted there aren't many games like Nosgoth, but just as they weren't many games like Brink, War of the Roses and the other ones I mentioned.
And there are games out there and coming up that have a lot more going for them than team deathmatch, like objective driven modes and so on.

At the end of the day, granted, I don't know much about Nosgoth (hell, I've seen one short trailer), so it might still surprise me.
But as it stands, there are other releases that are coming up that have me a lot more excited to play with my brothers/friends over the internet. While I'm starved for a good action adventure game on my pc to play on my own

Of course you don't know if NG has what it takes, you haven't played the game yet.

Games losing their hype train some time after release is nothing new. Happens with most.

NG isn't trying to compete with any of the giant MP titles I think, so there little point comparing it to them and saying "it won't be as popular as XYZ".

CountEyokir
3rd Oct 2013, 17:16
Personally I find that their lore takes away from the theme of the narrative, especially with the Razielim. They were the stuff of fan legend and now--they look like a quickly redone version of the flying Vampire model from Dead sun. (I'm just saying...) and are brought out to dance for us on stage, loosing whatever mysterious dignity they had before being shuffled off back to oblivion again. Way too more effort was put in trying to make the lore fit rather than making it memorable, likeable, interesting, relevant or important which I think is a terrible precedent to set.
Let me just state some things for the people who like the idea of this game, including the 16 who went down to London. Nobody asked for this game. Nobody wants to see another like it once its come and gone. The best most fans can hope for is to tolerate its existence in hopes that it might spawn a REAL LoK game somewhere down the line, which is the advise I see put out most often and advice think hopeless naïve.
This game, if it wants canonability, needs a narrative that shows the story telling methods of LoK at its peek. Otherwise the casual gamer ain't gonna find the cut scenes, five minutes or more long, of a standard classic LoK endurable.

Sam250
3rd Oct 2013, 17:34
NG isn't trying to compete with any of the giant MP titles I think, so there little point comparing it to them and saying "it won't be as popular as XYZ".

Look at games in the same genre, on the same platform, and/or with the same price model. A search on Steam for free-to-play, multiplayer games gives us Super Monday Night Combat, Team Fortress 2, Planetside 2, Warframe, Tribes Ascend, Awesomenauts, War of the Roses, amongst others. I wouldn't guess they are the best/most popular games in the genre overall, but I would consider them Nosgoth's direct competitors. Hmm... Nosgoth has an original, eye-catching theme/style compared to those games, and quite possibly the team that can make it work mechanically. Does it have a chance?