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TheIrtar
26th Sep 2013, 03:00
So, something very dramatic has changed between the existent SR1 timeline (the second timeline) and the timeline as of Blood Omen 2 / Defiance (which are in the fourth timeline).

Vorador, by some dark power, was revived.

Resurrection? Perhaps he evaded Moebius' mob? Does it make a difference?

We have a generation of vampires spawned by Vorador, and more troubling a vampire older and (in theory) more powerful than Kain introduced into the post BO1 story line.

Does anyone think this game will have anything to do with that? Or will it just ignore everything from SR2 on and just say that the second and third paradoxes never happened and keep in Soul Reaver's original time line?

Limed00d
26th Sep 2013, 04:55
There are three timelines, and this game appears to take place in the one where Blood Omen 2 never took place, and where the paradoxes never happened (cue people ranting about the Reaver infused with Raziel's soul as it is a product of several paradoxes, but let's pretend that it doesn't matter right now)
Therefore it is safe to say it takes place in the Soul Reaver 1 timeline, where Vorador was never revived. He's still sucking dirt somewhere. Kain, sterile in his vampiric form, turns to Necromancy to create his Lieutenants (Either the ones we meet in Soul Reaver or those from Blood Omen 2). His Lieutenants are NOT sterile unlike Kain, and are able to sire an army after a certain amount of time. An army big enough to conquer Nosgoth.

There is no Hylden lord stopping him, as the events that caused his return never took place (yet). It's safe to say that Vorador isn't a threat for the clans in Nosgoth.

DJpick
26th Sep 2013, 08:36
I'm still trying to figure out how there are 4 timelines.

Arguably, the only way a new timeline occurs is with a complete change in the timeline.

The first (as it would appear in game order), is William the Just. The second, is SR2 when Kain pulls the Reaver allowing Raziel to roam free (creating BO2 and Defiance). And Defiance, which creates the newly purified SR (which arguably doesn't matter, as everything from this point would be Kain's present and not really a changed timeline, as both Kain and Raziel were displaced out of time from SR1, in the past, but still living in their present).

I'm curious what the fourth is (or fifth, if we're counting line 1 as BO1-SR2 before the end).

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 08:40
Honestly, I think the writers of BO2 just added Vorador in without realising he's meant to have been dead. Everything in that game seemed to be very... off. The whole "alternate timeline" excuse is a cop-out and it's worth noting that BO2 is the only game that exists outside of the BO1/SR1/SR2/D time flow, so I guess you could count it as a spinoff more than anything.

As Limedood says though, we likely won't see Vorador or his kin. If we use Raziel as our universal clock, the game takes place before he creates his wibbly wobbly timey wimey paradoxes and thus no resurrection.


I'm still trying to figure out how there are 4 timelines.

Arguably, the only way a new timeline occurs is with a complete change in the timeline.

The first (as it would appear in game order), is William the Just. The second, is...

Whoa there cowboy, let's not forget the original timeline where William the Just was known as Nemesis. Kain created a paradox by killing him and thus we enter the second timeline.

CAR105_3
26th Sep 2013, 10:04
I'm still trying to figure out how there are 4 timelines.

Arguably, the only way a new timeline occurs is with a complete change in the timeline.

The first (as it would appear in game order), is William the Just. The second, is SR2 when Kain pulls the Reaver allowing Raziel to roam free (creating BO2 and Defiance). And Defiance, which creates the newly purified SR (which arguably doesn't matter, as everything from this point would be Kain's present and not really a changed timeline, as both Kain and Raziel were displaced out of time from SR1, in the past, but still living in their present).

I'm curious what the fourth is (or fifth, if we're counting line 1 as BO1-SR2 before the end).
There is an additional paradox that occurs when Raziel refuses to kill Kain at William's Chapel. Thus allowing Kain to commit the 3rd paradox by removing the Reaver from Raziel when it's trynig to devour him.

DJpick
26th Sep 2013, 19:57
(FULL DISCLOSURE: I haven't had a good LoK Debate in over ten years. I'm a little rusty)

There in lies the problem. It could be argued that Raziel walking around with his soul on his arm makes him a walking paradox, thereby making every decision he makes a potential for a new timeline.

Or there is only one, and all these things were meant to happen, because they did happen. The point being, there could be a ridiculous amount of numbers of timelines.

Killing WtJ was the first (as told to us). Creating the timeline as we know it in SR1 and 2. Which would make anything after (SR1) Time Line 2.

Not killing Kain in SR2 I guess would be #3, allowing Kain to prevent the timeline that led to BO1 and BO1.2 (WtJ, The Nemesis, although if those didn't happen, then SR2 couldn't have happened in the first place, because those led to SR1, which created Raziel. Free will can't overcome a grandfather paradox, unless you're relying on the unlimited parallel timeline theories, like Back to the Future 2).

Which means freeing Raziel would be #4. But then that means Defiance is trivial, and not changing anything, because everything after that timeline in SR2 is new (kain could have let Raziel be taken into the blade at that point still) and not changing anything since those timelines never existed. You can't deviate from something that hasn't happened (even though we know they did, because Kain remembered them).

Ultimately, my issue has always been the idea of "new" timelines makes the story much more complicated, and convoluted. Especially when you consider the fact that Raziel and Kain have always experienced these things from the perspective of their present life. Whether in the past or the future, they are always in their moment in time. And time is just a new location for them. Kind of like walking from the woods into a field. The setting changed, not the existence.

The only timeline that mattered was the Prime Timeline, because that is the only one that existed and everything else is a deviation from that. And with each change, those previous timelines are deleted from existence. Because the base prime line is what is deviated from. And the microscopic changes that don't do major damage don't matter, and only lead to further changes, not new changes as a whole. They build off each other, pushing timeline beta further and further from Prime timeline alpha.

Rynfear
26th Sep 2013, 20:00
(FULL DISCLOSURE: I haven't had a good LoK Debate in over ten years. I'm a little rusty)

There in lies the problem. It could be argued that Raziel walking around with his soul on his arm makes him a walking paradox, thereby making every decision he makes a potential for a new timeline.


The timeline only changes in moments like Kain's avoidance of death in SR2 or right at the end. Otherwise it's the same.

Two Reavers need to collide in space and time for history to change. Kain already says that just him and Raziel are mere pebbles to the flow of the timestream. Whenever the timeline is in danger of changing, actions become more forced as will is being dictated by fate itself.

Evill3unny
26th Sep 2013, 21:51
So, something very dramatic has changed between the existent SR1 timeline (the second timeline) and the timeline as of Blood Omen 2 / Defiance (which are in the fourth timeline).

Vorador, by some dark power, was revived.

We don't actually know what happend to Vorador in any of the time lines. What seems the most likely to me is that Vorador wasn't killed by Moebius after the events of SR2, because Moebius was killed by (elder) Kain in Defiance. Thus he didn't get around to executing Vorador. That is total speculation though. From all the other games we know that it's pretty darn hard to prevent someone from restoring your long dead corps. Kain pulled that trick off with Sarafan who had been dead for centuries. With Janos it was just a matter of popping the heart back in. Kain might have done it to Vorador. It could also be that some vamp might have done it after the Hylden started breaking out. There are a whole lot of ways they can swing this Vorador thing.

As for the timeline of this game. From what I've seen so far this game fits fine in all the timelines. I sure hope they give us some clues to which one in the game, and obviously that it's the latest one we got to see. I do find it interesting that Vorador might still be alive in the time of this game.

Lord_Aevum
26th Sep 2013, 22:20
We don't actually know what happend to Vorador in any of the time lines. What seems the most likely to me is that Vorador wasn't killed by Moebius after the events of SR2, because Moebius was killed by (elder) Kain in Defiance. Thus he didn't get around to executing Vorador. That is total speculation though.

Vorador does still get executed in that timeline, it's been confirmed by Crystal Dynamics a couple of times, so it's a resurrection you'd be looking at to reconcile BO2.

The_Hylden
26th Sep 2013, 23:08
Note: this game does take place along the same timeline that includes BO2. The events of BO2 are basically self-contained. What happened afterward in SR1 never was altered by them, so what happens here in the game, Nosgoth, happening after Raziel was cast into the abyss, is also what happened prior to the paradoxes that introduced the events of BO2.

This is also long after Vorador met whatever new fate he met, so I very much doubt they'll address Vorador's resurrection prior to the events of BO2 in any way in Nosgoth.

Gaiseric
26th Sep 2013, 23:28
Vorador does still get executed in that timeline, it's been confirmed by Crystal Dynamics a couple of times, so it's a resurrection you'd be looking at to reconcile BO2.

Doesn't get make reference to it in Blood Omen 2? "Do you so wish to return to the grave, old friend? You are in no position to challenge me." I've always just assumed it was Kain that did it, but I guess it is still pure speculation.

I think I've already read somewhere that they were originally going to have Raziel be the one to resurrect Vorador but they changed it because Raziel already did the same thing with Janos and it'd be redundant.

DJpick
27th Sep 2013, 02:27
The timeline only changes in moments like Kain's avoidance of death in SR2 or right at the end. Otherwise it's the same.

Two Reavers need to collide in space and time for history to change. Kain already says that just him and Raziel are mere pebbles to the flow of the timestream. Whenever the timeline is in danger of changing, actions become more forced as will is being dictated by fate itself.

Yes, I get all that. Except if the timeline was changed, then it no longer exists. Therefore, you can't have a change if it didn't exist. My point being, the whole idea of new timelines over and over makes zero sense. Because if time can just rewrite itself that rapidly and repeatedly, then the "time abhors a paradox" line is moot. If time can rewrite it self so frequently, then a paradox is nothing more than a small pebble in your shoe.

And Raziel holding his soul in his hand, bound to him, is itself a paradox. I'm pretty sure that it was said somewhere that Raziel himself personified free will, because of his undoing. Because of the wraith blade on his hand, he and only he could do that. Or anyone holding him (Kain wasn't able to kill WtJ without another Reaver).

Raziel is not a pebble in the time stream. He is a big ass salmon, swimming upstream to his heart's content,

Besides, BO2 and Defiance are the new timeline, period. Because no matter what, they haven;t happened yet. You can't claim "new timelines" to describe things that haven't happened. There are two timelines. The one Moebius orchestrated by making WtJ a martyr, and the one Raziel and Kain created by not killing/dying when they did in SR2. The only new timeline, is the one that deviates from the one that occurred all along. Saying there are new new timelines trivializes any change before it.

That's my point. There aren't new timelines, as Raziel and Kain are always in their present. Only their surroundings have changed, nothing new has happened because they haven't written themselves out of existence. And there are so many predestination paradoxes, that are crucial. New timelines would negate so many things, necessary to create them.

Janos7
27th Sep 2013, 02:27
(My theory)All the timelines seem to lead up to Raziel becoming trapped in the reaver. The only changes are the events that lead up to him becoming trapped in the reaver. There are three characters that know Raziel is the key to changing the timeline those are Mobious, The Elder God, and Kain.(Hylden lord revived due to the opprotunity Raziel presented him.) But in any time line the events of Raziel's death have to loop to him killing himself so that he may become the reaver. But Raziel becoming the Reaver ISN'T the purpose of the time loop. In every instance kain was unable to restore nosgoth through a random series of events.(Raziel becoming trapped in the reaver too early, Raziel killing kain. William the Just being allowed to live. The Hylden seizing control of Nosgoth.) But eventually the right series of events took place that allowed time to stop looping to Raziel's death(In every timeline Raziel is assumed to exist because the reaver exists in those timelines.) It was ultimately Raziel's fate to become trapped inside the reaver but not until he could purify Kain's mind and end the corruption of Nosgoth.

DJpick
27th Sep 2013, 02:29
Note: this game does take place along the same timeline that includes BO2. The events of BO2 are basically self-contained. What happened afterward in SR1 never was altered by them, so what happens here in the game, Nosgoth, happening after Raziel was cast into the abyss, is also what happened prior to the paradoxes that introduced the events of BO2.

This is also long after Vorador met whatever new fate he met, so I very much doubt they'll address Vorador's resurrection prior to the events of BO2 in any way in Nosgoth.

That makes no sense. Defiance was altered by BO2, so the "self contained" explanation fails.

Now, it's possible that the timline corrected itself all along. Also, Raziel put his soul into Kain to purify him. It never ended up in the blade (at least it didn't appear to). So how could the timeline of SR1 NOT be altered by the events of BO2 and Defiance?

Because the blade at the end of SR2 was the one that was meant to be found by Kain, that led him to defeating WtJ, and becoming the ruler after the fall of the pillars.

If that blade never ends up in young Kain's hands, none of this even matters.

88chaz88
27th Sep 2013, 08:47
That makes no sense. Defiance was altered by BO2, so the "self contained" explanation fails.

Defiance wasn't altered by BO2. It couldn't be. At no point were there two Soul Reavers.

BO2 existed due to time altering in SR2 but the relevance stops there. We learn a little more about the Hylden and their goals but other than that you can play BO/SR/SR2/Defiance without ever missing a gap in continuity.

DJpick
27th Sep 2013, 17:44
I didn't say changed. I said altered. Defiance was a result of SR2 and BO2. The events of both shaped Defiance. In fact, Defiance and BO2 were intertwined, since Raziel's choices led to BO2, and the result of BO2 affected Kain's decisions in Defiance (since he gained the new memories).

I didn't say BO2 was created by Defiance. Just that the changes made in BO2 dictated actions in Defiance.

BO2 led into a lot of the Defiance storyline. I'm simply just saying, it wasn't a standalone game. As the stories built off each other.

Lord_Aevum
27th Sep 2013, 18:45
@DJpick

Sorry, I may just interject with a quote or two from the devs here which might change your mind.

When in Legacy of Kain we discuss multiple timelines, etc, paradoxes *did* happen and history *was* changed. It's not an abstract matter of philosophy, those timelines *did* fictively exist. In LoK lore, the general idea thus far is that when a paradox occurs, the timeline being replaced is considered "dead" henceforth, but remains intact in the memories of those present at the point the Reavers converge. Thus, even if events are wiped out, like the Battle of the Last Stand, they can still live on in Kain's head, and influence his actions, and his legacy. Think of it like the Doctor Who episode "Last of the Time Lords (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_of_the_Time_Lords)", where David Tennant explains that all the characters retained memories of what the Master did since they were at the "eye of the storm". This is the official explanation (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37412):


When we say here that the old memories are dying it is not that they are being erased from Kain's memory but instead being shuffled aside by the newer memories that reflect the altered course of history. Therefore he is not forgetting them he instead is holding in his mind two sets of parallel histories, one which is 'dead' and the other which is new and altered. This happens in BO1 but it is not directly mentioned by Kain.

About your assertion that the Hylden's post "makes no sense", I'd suggest he's simply relaying that Blood Omen 2 didn't alter the events of Soul Reaver 1 in any significant way (although it could alter later events), which is a fact confirmed by Crystal Dynamics, and thus that BO2 doesn't have to influence Nosgoth. This doesn't make no sense. History abhors a paradox. It "finds the path of least resistance while admitting only the slightest alterations". It's not news to the Hylden that Blood Omen 2 and Defiance are interdependent, he's the last person you have to tell this to.

The rest of your post there suggests to me that you might have misinterpreted the ending of Defiance. Raziel purifies Kain with the wraith-blade, but he still enters the Soul Reaver there and then. Kain blatantly says this in the ending if it isn't already clear enough. The wraith-blade dispersed into Kain is the future, final incarnation of Raziel, the soul released when the Soul Reaver shattered, as portrayed in Soul Reaver 1. The events of Blood Omen 1 most definitely still play out and the Soul Reaver still ends up in Kain's hands.

Hope that helps.

The_Hylden
27th Sep 2013, 20:06
Yes, and I'll add:

Defiance occurs by the paradox at the end of SR2. That paradox brought about the events of Defiance and BO2. Otherwise, the previous games, BO1 (which was happening congruently to Defiance) and the far future of SR1, were not altered in any way.

WoeToTheConquered
27th Sep 2013, 21:02
There certainly is a lot of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff in LoK, hahaha.

MasterShuriko
28th Sep 2013, 02:01
Yes, and I'll add:

Defiance occurs by the paradox at the end of SR2. That paradox brought about the events of Defiance and BO2. Otherwise, the previous games, BO1 (which was happening congruently to Defiance) and the far future of SR1, were not altered in any way.

Thats quite a handful to actually understand without having seen or experienced it via the games =D
Showed this to my gf (except the look and comment from her about me being a nerd) she didnt get it ^^

Vampmaster
28th Sep 2013, 10:37
The new timeline and memories that appear to Kain at the end of SR2 where of the events in BO2. The events of Defiance came about as a result of that. It's all one single timeline after that.

Try to think of things as they happen in the order Kain experienced them in.

PoppaKain
28th Sep 2013, 10:41
There certainly is a lot of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff in LoK, hahaha.

You can blame Moebius for that. That old fool shouldn't be leaving active time machines for any old vampire to stumble upon.

Vampmaster
28th Sep 2013, 10:48
You know he did that on purpose, don't you?

PoppaKain
28th Sep 2013, 10:55
Yes, much like how I cleaved his head off on purpose. All fun and games until someone makes a paradox. Or a decapitation. ...Honestly they aren't all that alike, are they?

The_Hylden
28th Sep 2013, 16:48
Thats quite a handful to actually understand without having seen or experienced it via the games =D
Showed this to my gf (except the look and comment from her about me being a nerd) she didnt get it ^^


This entire thread about the timelines is for people who already have played the games. Of course I wouldn't expect someone who hasn't to know what's going on, or especially a girlfriend dragged onto this site wondering why she's even here and what type of nuts her boyfriend associates with online :p



Moebius of course knew he was going to be decapitated. As he states, he "saw that event long before." He's the Timestreamer, so of course he knows his own fate. He also banks on being rewarded for his efforts with a return to life by the EG, which he does receive in Defiance ... briefly ;)

DJpick
2nd Oct 2013, 03:49
@DJpick

Sorry, I may just interject with a quote or two from the devs here which might change your mind.

When in Legacy of Kain we discuss multiple timelines, etc, paradoxes *did* happen and history *was* changed. It's not an abstract matter of philosophy, those timelines *did* fictively exist. In LoK lore, the general idea thus far is that when a paradox occurs, the timeline being replaced is considered "dead" henceforth, but remains intact in the memories of those present at the point the Reavers converge. Thus, even if events are wiped out, like the Battle of the Last Stand, they can still live on in Kain's head, and influence his actions, and his legacy. Think of it like the Doctor Who episode "Last of the Time Lords (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_of_the_Time_Lords)", where David Tennant explains that all the characters retained memories of what the Master did since they were at the "eye of the storm". This is the official explanation (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37412):



About your assertion that the Hylden's post "makes no sense", I'd suggest he's simply relaying that Blood Omen 2 didn't alter the events of Soul Reaver 1 in any significant way (although it could alter later events), which is a fact confirmed by Crystal Dynamics, and thus that BO2 doesn't have to influence Nosgoth. This doesn't make no sense. History abhors a paradox. It "finds the path of least resistance while admitting only the slightest alterations". It's not news to the Hylden that Blood Omen 2 and Defiance are interdependent, he's the last person you have to tell this to.

The rest of your post there suggests to me that you might have misinterpreted the ending of Defiance. Raziel purifies Kain with the wraith-blade, but he still enters the Soul Reaver there and then. Kain blatantly says this in the ending if it isn't already clear enough. The wraith-blade dispersed into Kain is the future, final incarnation of Raziel, the soul released when the Soul Reaver shattered, as portrayed in Soul Reaver 1. The events of Blood Omen 1 most definitely still play out and the Soul Reaver still ends up in Kain's hands.

Hope that helps.

When did they make those statements? Cause I can think of an infinite number of arguments back in the days of the Realm that could have been ended real quick had that been quoted.

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 04:07
Well, in the thread link Aevum provided of those answers from back in 2004, you made posts to it... Three of them, in fact. People did quote these answers then on the Realm, as far as I remember. Myself, most certainly quoted the heck out of those answers, time and time again. I know we're all getting old, but I believe that my memory isn't failing me here...

Denam_Pavel
2nd Oct 2013, 06:30
As Kain says history actively works to reshuffle itself to keep things the way it should be. Kain may or may not have killed William the Just, allowing Moebius to start another crusade but keep in mind Williams Reaver as well the one Kain found in the first timeline were already the Soul Reaver. And as Raziel states at the end of SR2 after the timeline had been reshuffled a great deal and the Kain very abrubtly started to remember BO2, his own conjoined Soul was evidence that he still had only postponed his destiny and could not escape it.

Raziel even in the timeline of the Nemesis still became a vampire, then a wraith, then got the Reaver stuck in his arm in a fight with Kain or possibly someone else and went back in the past and himself got stuck in the Reaver making it a soul-devoiring weapon. And it is still true in the Defiance timeline. His own inevitable fate was the one thing Raziel would not be able to change, thats the tragic part. So the event of this game, during Raziels transition from vampire to wraith could happen in anyone timeline.

Lord_Aevum
2nd Oct 2013, 07:19
When did they make those statements? Cause I can think of an infinite number of arguments back in the days of the Realm that could have been ended real quick had that been quoted.

I can't click on the link and read what it says for you, any more than I already have. You do have to do that yourself if you want to see the statements. (As Hylden says it looks like you already have done so at one point)

DJpick
2nd Oct 2013, 07:43
Well, in the thread link Aevum provided of those answers from back in 2004, you made posts to it... Three of them, in fact. People did quote these answers then on the Realm, as far as I remember. Myself, most certainly quoted the heck out of those answers, time and time again. I know we're all getting old, but I believe that my memory isn't failing me here...

My memory isn't failing me, but if you expect me to remember one specific thread, 10 years ago, in a forum I rarely went to, about a game I haven't played in ten years as well...

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 12:18
No, I expect you to be able to look at the thread when it's presented before you. It took me all of five seconds to skim down the page :p

Another five to skim the second page, and there are only two pages.



Denam_Pavel, if you mean before the paradoxes, Kain may or may not have still killed William the Just? Just to clarify, and if so, then no he does not kill William originally because we see William is still alive in Kain's time as the Nemesis, leader of his Legion. If you mean also that Moebius may have started another crusade on the first timeline, then no. We see that he didn't because Kain lived through that timeline 30 years as a human, then his brief time as a vampire before finding the time streaming device and heading back in time at the Battle of the Last Stand. Nowhere in his travels did he find any vampire crusaders. Those were completely new to him and were history replacing the absence of the Legions of the Nemesis once the timeline reshuffled from the paradox of Kain killing William the Just.

If you mean he may, or may not still kill William after the reshuffling of time in SR2, then there is no maybe. Kain still kills William and Moebius still replaces the Legion's presence with his vampire crusade. You see that crusade happening in both SR2 and in Defiance in Moebius' vampire hunter army that Raziel fights.


The difference in Raziel's fate is simply when he chooses and indeed that he chooses to enter the Reaver. At the very lease after the paradox where Kain kills William the Just and before the two paradoxes that lead to Kain sparing Raziel at this moment, Raziel in the second timeline is literally forced into the blade against his will after killing his brethren and his former self. As he says when it's happening in SR2, despair overwhelms him. Can you imagine the despondency, the anger, the hatred of this all lingering still within him as he exists as the sword for thousands of years? This is the reason I still believe in SR2 you see the wraith blade as so deranged and so willfully and angrily leading Raziel about, or when too aroused in battle, leaching his very soul to empower itself, yet this behavior is absent in Defiance. Once Kain spares Raziel at the end of SR2, Defiance's events show a totally changed wraith blade and I never have bought that this is just mere gameplay changes. It's cooperative, and only shows aggression toward enemies. It doesn't turn on Raziel in battle, which leads me to believe that this is doe to how Raziel enters the sword at the end of the game, by his own will and with a righteous cause to be the right hand of Kain and to fight the EG. This will, this righteous desire, still stays with him/it all of those centuries, and millennia later, when it's reawakened again consciously.

So, for me, this is completely a different fate, far, far less tragic and one that probably most closely resembles his original destiny before William was killed by Kain. This is a righteous sacrifice, where otherwise, it was one forced and born of true tragedy.

Denam_Pavel
2nd Oct 2013, 16:52
No, I expect you to be able to look at the thread when it's presented before you. It took me all of five seconds to skim down the page :p

Another five to skim the second page, and there are only two pages.



Denam_Pavel, if you mean before the paradoxes, Kain may or may not have still killed William the Just? Just to clarify, and if so, then no he does not kill William originally because we see William is still alive in Kain's time as the Nemesis, leader of his Legion. If you mean also that Moebius may have started another crusade on the first timeline, then no. We see that he didn't because Kain lived through that timeline 30 years as a human, then his brief time as a vampire before finding the time streaming device and heading back in time at the Battle of the Last Stand. Nowhere in his travels did he find any vampire crusaders. Those were completely new to him and were history replacing the absence of the Legions of the Nemesis once the timeline reshuffled from the paradox of Kain killing William the Just.

If you mean he may, or may not still kill William after the reshuffling of time in SR2, then there is no maybe. Kain still kills William and Moebius still replaces the Legion's presence with his vampire crusade. You see that crusade happening in both SR2 and in Defiance in Moebius' vampire hunter army that Raziel fights.


The difference in Raziel's fate is simply when he chooses and indeed that he chooses to enter the Reaver. At the very lease after the paradox where Kain kills William the Just and before the two paradoxes that lead to Kain sparing Raziel at this moment, Raziel in the second timeline is literally forced into the blade against his will after killing his brethren and his former self. As he says when it's happening in SR2, despair overwhelms him. Can you imagine the despondency, the anger, the hatred of this all lingering still within him as he exists as the sword for thousands of years? This is the reason I still believe in SR2 you see the wraith blade as so deranged and so willfully and angrily leading Raziel about, or when too aroused in battle, leaching his very soul to empower itself, yet this behavior is absent in Defiance. Once Kain spares Raziel at the end of SR2, Defiance's events show a totally changed wraith blade and I never have bought that this is just mere gameplay changes. It's cooperative, and only shows aggression toward enemies. It doesn't turn on Raziel in battle, which leads me to believe that this is doe to how Raziel enters the sword at the end of the game, by his own will and with a righteous cause to be the right hand of Kain and to fight the EG. This will, this righteous desire, still stays with him/it all of those centuries, and millennia later, when it's reawakened again consciously.

So, for me, this is completely a different fate, far, far less tragic and one that probably most closely resembles his original destiny before William was killed by Kain. This is a righteous sacrifice, where otherwise, it was one forced and born of true tragedy.

I don't mean either of those things. And the behaviour of the Reaver aside it still means that in each timeline from first to last Raziel still gets stuck in the Reaver one way or another. Which means that Nemesis or no, Hylden or no Kain ALWAYS creates his vampire lieutenants and then casts Raziel into the pit after which Raziel becomes a wraith who has multiple encounters with the wielder of the Reaver and this game's setting is present, largely in the same form in all timelines.

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 17:18
I don't mean either of those things. And the behaviour of the Reaver aside it still means that in each timeline from first to last Raziel still gets stuck in the Reaver one way or another. Which means that Nemesis or no, Hylden or no Kain ALWAYS creates his vampire lieutenants and then casts Raziel into the pit after which Raziel becomes a wraith who has multiple encounters with the wielder of the Reaver and this game's setting is present, largely in the same form in all timelines.

That all was never in question, by me anyway.

Vanyelxp5
2nd Oct 2013, 17:37
That makes no sense. Defiance was altered by BO2, so the "self contained" explanation fails.

Now, it's possible that the timline corrected itself all along. Also, Raziel put his soul into Kain to purify him. It never ended up in the blade (at least it didn't appear to). So how could the timeline of SR1 NOT be altered by the events of BO2 and Defiance?

Because the blade at the end of SR2 was the one that was meant to be found by Kain, that led him to defeating WtJ, and becoming the ruler after the fall of the pillars.

If that blade never ends up in young Kain's hands, none of this even matters.

Technically, the events of Defiance altered Blood Omen 2.

Because, if Raziel hadn't ripped The Heart of Darkness out of Kain and put it back into Janos, then the Hylden lord could not have possessed Janos and taken him to become the Beast (And the power source for The Device.)

In the soul Reaver 2 timeline, there are three Soul Reavers present. One bound to Raziel, one containing Raziel's original soul (because it was The Soul Reaver wielded by Willian the Just.) And, one held for Raziel by Janos Audron. (Which was then stolen by The Seraphan when they killed Janos.)

Two of these reavers contain Raziel's soul, the one on his arm, and the one that was wielded by William the Just. (Which was broken by Kain in that encounter, but repaired when Raziel touched it.) The one wielded by William the Just could be the one found by young Kain, while old Kain held the reaver that he prevented Raziel's soul from entering.

Thus, despite the changing history, in the future when Kain uses the Soul Reaver on Raziel, it will still shatter, because that Kain will still possess one that holds Raziel's soul.

And if you're not confused yet, you should be.

History abhors a paradox. Raziel was worried that, when Kain ripped The Reaver from his chest, they had introduced such a large paradox that time itself would unravel and destroy the universe. Luckily, it created Blood Omen 2 instead... But then again... Maybe that's not so lucky... >.>

As for Vorador and Moebius... The Moebius you kill in Defiance had already been killed by Young Kain to restore the time pillar, and then resurrected by The Elder God. So Vorador would still have been beheaded in the Defiance timeline.


Raziel's soul entered old Kain's reaver, but because old Kain had been wielding it for so long, he was bound to the blade as much as Raziel was to his wraith blade version. So purifying Kain's reaver also purified Kain.


*waves hand* These aren't the plot holes you're looking for.

ZeroFernir
2nd Oct 2013, 17:54
In fact, Vorador never had such great influence in kain's clans, as I think, neighter in the human race. As the game is only about that, I think we should not expect to see Vorador or someone like that.

Vanyelxp5
2nd Oct 2013, 17:58
One thing that bugged me in Blood Omen... Why didn't Moebius use his staff against Kain? We know he has it... because he couldn't have trapped Vorador without it...

We know it works on Kain, because it works in Defiance (Up until the heart was ripped out of Kain's body that is...)

I mean... at that point in time... Moebius did seem intent on winning... but he leaves the surefire win in his other pants?

Jebotimater
2nd Oct 2013, 19:04
Perhaps it was all part of the Elder god's scheme and Mobieus was just playing along. Kain was supposed to be killed by Raziel and Mobieus was aware of that.

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 19:04
In the soul Reaver 2 timeline, there are three Soul Reavers present. One bound to Raziel, one containing Raziel's original soul (because it was The Soul Reaver wielded by Willian the Just.) And, one held for Raziel by Janos Audron. (Which was then stolen by The Seraphan when they killed Janos.)

No, what's held by Janos Audron for Raziel is the Blood Reaver (just called the Reaver), the empty sword originally which drank blood only. Raziel notes that it is empty and he feels nothing from it. It will only be filled with his soul after Raziel fights and kills all of the Sarafan Inquisitors (his former brethren) and his former Sarafan self. There are only two of him at that point in that paradox. The wraith blade on his arm and his own self, which the wraith blade tries to pull within the blade to enact its own creation.



Thus, despite the changing history, in the future when Kain uses the Soul Reaver on Raziel, it will still shatter, because that Kain will still possess one that holds Raziel's soul.

Yes, because it's the same one he's always had. At the end of Defiance, Raziel goes into the blade and the Soul Reaver is forged, which will be the same one William has and his younger self will wield in their fight.




Raziel's soul entered old Kain's reaver, but because old Kain had been wielding it for so long, he was bound to the blade as much as Raziel was to his wraith blade version. So purifying Kain's reaver also purified Kain.

I don't know where you get any of the bonding from, or what that would have to do with anything. While he may hold a special understanding of the blade and familiarity with with after wielding it for thousands of years, that has nothing to do with Raziel's situation. No, as the answers we've covered and the link to the official answers tell you, the purified wraith blade went into Kain and dispersed, purifying him, yes, but Raziel, unpurified, goes into the Reaver to make it the Soul Reaver. It is not purified. His wraith blade self will not be purified for thousands of years until we loop back with it through time and Raziel, its younger self, purifies it in the Spirit Forge.



One thing that bugged me in Blood Omen... Why didn't Moebius use his staff against Kain? We know he has it... because he couldn't have trapped Vorador without it...

We know it works on Kain, because it works in Defiance (Up until the heart was ripped out of Kain's body that is...)

I mean... at that point in time... Moebius did seem intent on winning... but he leaves the surefire win in his other pants?

Two reasons: Moebius is bound by fate to die, and he wants Kain to succeed in bringing down the Pillars, because that is the EG's will. Moebius probably banked on this being a temporary sacrifice, one he gladly made for his God, and one which he expected to be rewarded for with being resurrected. We see that he was, at least on the timeline currently. Briefly.

Evill3unny
2nd Oct 2013, 21:09
"Bound by faith" is a pretty vague way of saying it. Simple fact is Moebius knew he was going to die by the hand of Kain at that point in time. Like he says in SR2, as a time streamer he knows when he is going to die. So even if he had brought the staff, he would have died by the hands of Kain anyway. Something would have happened, maybe something did happen which we didn't get to see, that prevented Moebius from having the staff to use against Kain. The timeline won't change just because silly mr time streamer doesn't want to die :P

*Edit: Faith = fate

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 21:15
I didn't say bound by faith. I said bound by fate... The same exact thing you just said :p He knew he was fated to die at Kain's hands. Bound by fate to die.

Evill3unny
2nd Oct 2013, 21:19
Silly mistake there. You're right. I meant to write fate. Whoops! I guess I figured the explanation about why that is was too cool not to mention! (damn I love this series!)

Rizos53
2nd Oct 2013, 22:42
I've tried reading and understanding everything that was said above, I only ended up confused :|

Vanyelxp5
3rd Oct 2013, 02:59
No, what's held by Janos Audron for Raziel is the Blood Reaver (just called the Reaver), the empty sword originally which drank blood only. Raziel notes that it is empty and he feels nothing from it. It will only be filled with his soul after Raziel fights and kills all of the Sarafan Inquisitors (his former brethren) and his former Sarafan self. There are only two of him at that point in that paradox. The wraith blade on his arm and his own self, which the wraith blade tries to pull within the blade to enact its own creation.

There is still the repaired blade once held by William the Just that is most definitely the Soul Reaver. We know it has to be, because young Kain wielded another copy of it, and together they allowed him to alter the timeline. So fine, there are two Soul Reavers. And, technically four copies of Raziel's soul.






Yes, because it's the same one he's always had. At the end of Defiance, Raziel goes into the blade and the Soul Reaver is forged, which will be the same one William has and his younger self will wield in their fight.

Unless old Kain leaves the blade somewhere for young Kain to find, which isn't possible because young kain is already using it during the Defiance plot. (Young Kain's final battle at the pillars takes place before Old Kain's final battle with The Elder God.) Though admittedly, this could easily be explained by more time travel. I prefer to think that, Moebius took the repaired blade after Raziel left the first time in Soul Reaver 2, and moved it to wherever young Kain finds it in Blood Omen. It makes more sense to me that Moebius would be involved in that, rather than Kain. It's more his style.





I don't know where you get any of the bonding from, or what that would have to do with anything. While he may hold a special understanding of the blade and familiarity with with after wielding it for thousands of years, that has nothing to do with Raziel's situation. No, as the answers we've covered and the link to the official answers tell you, the purified wraith blade went into Kain and dispersed, purifying him, yes, but Raziel, unpurified, goes into the Reaver to make it the Soul Reaver. It is not purified. His wraith blade self will not be purified for thousands of years until we loop back with it through time and Raziel, its younger self, purifies it in the Spirit Forge.

You're right about the wraith blade thing.. I'd forgotten how that cutscene went. It really has been too long since I played that game...





Two reasons: Moebius is bound by fate to die, and he wants Kain to succeed in bringing down the Pillars, because that is the EG's will. Moebius probably banked on this being a temporary sacrifice, one he gladly made for his God, and one which he expected to be rewarded for with being resurrected. We see that he was, at least on the timeline currently. Briefly.

Would the pillars not have remained corrupted if the Necromancer Mortanius had survived instead? Or Moebius himself?

I'm not disagreeing with you in that that's most likely the reasoning behind it. I'm just saying that there were other ways to achieve the same goal, and we know by how he manipulated the timeline to create the initial Paradox, that Moebius does possess a bit more flexibility in his use of free will than most. (Not as much as Raziel though.)

The_Hylden
3rd Oct 2013, 04:50
There is still the repaired blade once held by William the Just that is most definitely the Soul Reaver. We know it has to be, because young Kain wielded another copy of it, and together they allowed him to alter the timeline. So fine, there are two Soul Reavers. And, technically four copies of Raziel's soul.


Unless old Kain leaves the blade somewhere for young Kain to find, which isn't possible because young kain is already using it during the Defiance plot. (Young Kain's final battle at the pillars takes place before Old Kain's final battle with The Elder God.) Though admittedly, this could easily be explained by more time travel. I prefer to think that, Moebius took the repaired blade after Raziel left the first time in Soul Reaver 2, and moved it to wherever young Kain finds it in Blood Omen. It makes more sense to me that Moebius would be involved in that, rather than Kain. It's more his style.

No-one was ever questioning whether William held the Soul Reaver. The paradox of SR2's end happens 450 year before young Kain fights William the Just. The blade seen here in first Janos' possession, taken by the Sarafan, and wielded by Raziel, was prior to Raziel entering it, and was the only thing mentioned. Until he's within the blade, it's the Reaver only. On the original timeline, where he enters the sword might be different, and it might be more like in Defiance, but after the Willaim the Just paradox, this is when he entered the sword ... until Raziel's earlier paradox that spared Kain in William's chapel (which along the timeline happens 450 years later). Time alters both backward and forward to accommodate a paradox, and this time it altered leaving Kain alive to now have a chance to spare Raziel. His sparing of Raziel alters where Raziel now enters the sword. Now, it happens at the end of Defiance, which is 500 years beyond this moment, and 50 years beyond the moment when William the Just is killed by Kain, or you can say during the events of present day BO1.

Elder Kain, until the time when Raziel freely enters the sword, is holding the Reaver. At the end of Defiance, it's the Soul Reaver, newly forged. His younger self also has the Soul Reaver at this time, but it's an older incarnation, one that will have to be returned to Avernus by someone prior to his younger self picking it up. Be that Kain, or Moebius, or whomever, they will have to take it back into time to do this, yes.

Again, I am not getting the number of Raziel's souls you're coming up with. Let's break down the paradoxes:

William the Just: this battle has young Kain 20 years back in time from when he was born (50 years from BO1's present) facing William, the boy king who will become the Nemesis in Kain's life. Moebius is seen giving him the same Soul Reaver Kain has, but from another point in time. There are two Soul Reavers in this paradox, so two wraith blades, or two of Raziel's souls, which are always the same exact soul simply from different points in time.

Raziel spares Kain in William's chapel, right after Kain has been born, so 20 years after Kain has killed William on this timeline, and 30 years before the vents on BO1. There's Raziel the wraith, the wraith blade released from SR1's era on his arm, and an younger version of that same wraith blade within the sword. Three of Raziel's souls.

The end of SR2, after defeating the Sarafan version of his brethren and himself: There is an empty Blood Reaver, or simply Reaver, Raziel, and his older wraith blade self on his arm from SR1's era. Tow of him. Raziel's former Sarafan self's soul is not present. It's gone into the Underworld where it will remain until Kain pulls it from there to reenter its corpse and resurrect Raizle as a vampire, roughly a little over 1,000 years later.

That's the breakdown. When Raziel enters the blade now of his own free will at the end of Defiance, 500 years later, it's the same breakdown. An empty Blood Reaver, wraith Raziel, and his older wraith blade self.







You're right about the wraith blade thing.. I'd forgotten how that cutscene went. It really has been too long since I played that game...

The cutscene of Raiel healing Kain and entering the blade is actually not done as hot as it could have been to show this. For one, it's at a bad angle to see that the wraith blade is not only entering Kain's chest, but part of it is slinking down Kain's arm to the hilt of the Reaver, where it also pulls Raziel into the sword like it tried to do at the end of SR2. Second, the color scheme of the forged Reaver with Raziel inside afterward looks like both his wraith self and his older wraith blade self are inside the blade, since it's glowing both blue and the yellow of the wraith blade. Odd choices, if they wanted people to get this is not what was happening. So, don't feel bad that you didn't get it.







Would the pillars not have remained corrupted if the Necromancer Mortanius had survived instead? Or Moebius himself?

I'm not disagreeing with you in that that's most likely the reasoning behind it. I'm just saying that there were other ways to achieve the same goal, and we know by how he manipulated the timeline to create the initial Paradox, that Moebius does possess a bit more flexibility in his use of free will than most. (Not as much as Raziel though.)

Moebius and the EG didn't want them to remain corrupted, or healed, for that matter. They wanted two things: All vampires wiped out, which Kain would be the last of his kind, and the hold over the Dimensions by the Pillars gone. For presumably the EG's "more malleable servants." The Pillars remaining corrupted means the lock they hold over dimensions, however strained, still is in place.

Moebius thinks that both the last vampire in Kain is gone and that his master's wish of the barriers over the dimensions free has happened at the end of Defiance. On the Hylden reentering to Nosgoth as a consequence of this, he calls them a mere "inconvenience; they will be dealt with in time."



I've tried reading and understanding everything that was said above, I only ended up confused :|

Sorry to hear that.

Vanyelxp5
3rd Oct 2013, 13:41
And now I see where I was confused... I forgot just how far into the past you go for all of that in SR2 >.< I know for certain that you go back to 30 years before Blood Omen to start... and that you eventually get to pop back and forth between three times... But yea... I really need to play these more.

These games have quite possibly the most convoluted time line ever.

But I think I've got it mostly figured out.

Old Kain would be less willing to give up the Soul Reaver than ever after Raziel's sacrifice. It's not just a weapon for him now. It contains the soul of a friend.

So, the logical explanation is that Moebius took the repaired blade from 30 years before Blood Omen, gave it to William 20 years previously, and then in the original timeline (before the first paradox) went back and took it from him some time later so that he could replace it where young Kain would find it in order to set up the meeting of the blades that would allow the history changing paradox to occur. (Either that or between him and the elder god they can copy things like that....)

TheIrtar
4th Oct 2013, 01:52
Sadly, during the Q&A it was revealed that Nosgoth will be based in the second timeline.

So, Raziel's resurrection of Janos Audron never happened, and whatever events led to Vorador's resurrection for BO2 were not set in motion. So, Vorador is back to just being dead after being executed by Mobeius.

Disappointing, as it isn't advancing the post-Defiance storyline, and everything here can essentially already be retconned by the time traveling hijinks after SR1.

The_Hylden
4th Oct 2013, 03:09
Old Kain would be less willing to give up the Soul Reaver than ever after Raziel's sacrifice. It's not just a weapon for him now. It contains the soul of a friend.

Old Kain would only be giving it up after he's done with it ... so his younger self can pick it up (which elder Kain knows must happen). Were he to be the one to return it to Avernus, there would be no reason he would thwart the predestined path of the blade that led it into his elder hands in the first place.


So, the logical explanation is that Moebius took the repaired blade from 30 years before Blood Omen, gave it to William 20 years previously, and then in the original timeline (before the first paradox) went back and took it from him some time later so that he could replace it where young Kain would find it in order to set up the meeting of the blades that would allow the history changing paradox to occur. (Either that or between him and the elder god they can copy things like that....)

No-one can copy the Soul Reaver, or more specifically, the soul within it. That's what causes the paradoxes, that they are the same exact soul. Moebius could take it from any point in time he chooses, as long as no-one else was using it at the time.


Sadly, during the Q&A it was revealed that Nosgoth will be based in the second timeline.

So, Raziel's resurrection of Janos Audron never happened, and whatever events led to Vorador's resurrection for BO2 were not set in motion. So, Vorador is back to just being dead after being executed by Mobeius.

Disappointing, as it isn't advancing the post-Defiance storyline, and everything here can essentially already be retconned by the time traveling hijinks after SR1.

I hadn't gotten to the finale of the chat (which this is answered almost at the very end, unfortunately) until earlier. Yes, you're correct. Though they needn't have done this, really, as the events of the game should be past any real paradoxical change ramifications anyway, they did state this is happening on the timeline we've played via SR1, before the changes occur in the past. That does mean no Hylden tech to uncover from at least the BO2 era (but other tech exists still buried deep within the earth), and it means no Vorador secretly hiding in Nosgoth.

Perhaps they should rethink this, as there's no reason to deprive themselves of even further lore to uncover, like a bit of abandoned BO2 tech from the Hylden (even though I earlier stated against this, it's truly not a bad idea to have some relic uncovered and be used in part of the influence on the humans -- provided it's still mostly inconsequential to their overall history here) and of a possible incorporation of an old familiar character, or his dwindling factions, in hiding. Not saying either is a bad thing necessarily being missing. Put it this way: if the events of this era were unchanged, meaning the big overall picture, then regardless of if it were to follow the third and fourth changes in time, or not, this would and should play out almost exactly, if not exactly, the same anyway.

I'd be more sad if this were a single player story follow up that ignored the changes of the SR2 paradoxes.

Vanyelxp5
4th Oct 2013, 04:56
We know that regardless of any paradoxes, Soul Reaver 1 still has to happen. Because it had to have happened even before the Nemesis paradox happened in the original timeline, otherwise there would be no soul in the Reaver to create the double soul paradox.

Would Raziel appearing before his wraith self in another time also create the potential for a paradox? I know it doesn't matter since his arc is done... But theorizing is fun!

Is it the presence of multiple versions of the same soul in the same place at the same time that causes the paradox? Or is it because they are trapped inside the blade?

If it is the multiple versions one... How many does it take? If it were only two, Raziel would be a walking paradox generator (one soul in him, one in the wraith blade.) And while Kain does suggest that Raziel is capable of exercising free will to a greater extent than others, he doesn't do it very often. Not killing Kain inside the Seraphan keep is the only example I can think of where he deviated from the established timeline without holding the Soul Reaver... And that was a huge struggle for him.

So perhaps, 2 versions make it possible, but difficult? Or, perhaps that was just Raziel being more stubborn than the timeline, and it had nothing to do with carrying himself on his arm.

Denam_Pavel
4th Oct 2013, 07:12
And now I see where I was confused... I forgot just how far into the past you go for all of that in SR2 >.< I know for certain that you go back to 30 years before Blood Omen to start... and that you eventually get to pop back and forth between three times... But yea... I really need to play these more.

These games have quite possibly the most convoluted time line ever.

But I think I've got it mostly figured out.

Old Kain would be less willing to give up the Soul Reaver than ever after Raziel's sacrifice. It's not just a weapon for him now. It contains the soul of a friend.

So, the logical explanation is that Moebius took the repaired blade from 30 years before Blood Omen, gave it to William 20 years previously, and then in the original timeline (before the first paradox) went back and took it from him some time later so that he could replace it where young Kain would find it in order to set up the meeting of the blades that would allow the history changing paradox to occur. (Either that or between him and the elder god they can copy things like that....)

This is the changing of hands of the Reaver.

Janos Audron>Sarafans>Raziel>Elder Kain>???>Mobius>William The Just>Chapel>Avernus>Younger Kain>Raziel

The repaired Reaver was left in the chapel in SR2. The Reaver Kain pulled out of Raziel at the end of SR2 he uses in Defiance. Now that Raziel has entered it he'll have to say his goodbyes and return it to Mobius at some point.

Vanyelxp5
4th Oct 2013, 13:33
The repaired Reaver was left in the chapel in SR2.


As far as we know.

Another question is... Did purifying Old Kain have any effect on Young Kain? Or could that be something that you get to do in another game's plot (travel back to the ending of Blood omen, fight off a couple of The Elder God's minions, and purify Young Kain before he makes the choice at the pillars.)

It would do much better at restoring the Pillars than only having them restored in the future timeline where the world is pretty much screwed already.

Lord_Aevum
4th Oct 2013, 14:50
We know that regardless of any paradoxes, Soul Reaver 1 still has to happen. Because it had to have happened even before the Nemesis paradox happened in the original timeline, otherwise there would be no soul in the Reaver to create the double soul paradox.

It doesn't have to have happened as we know it; certainly not those exact same events. This is another big question touched upon (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=600#p600) by DCab. The Reaver, and the soul belonging to the individual known as Raziel, are both essential constants in all timelines, but that doesn't mean they've had the very same familiar history and destiny every single time since the origin of all causality in Nosgoth. Quite the contrary, the soul of Raziel in the first timeline could have been dragged down a completely different path to eventually wind up imprisoned in that sword.

Don't forget that everything in Soul Reaver 1 hinges upon Kain's decision at the Pillars, and the factors in that decision were changed significantly by Moebius's trap/paradox. In the first timeline we don't know for sure what Kain would have decided, since the potential extinction of the vampires wasn't a concern. By extension, there's no real rationale for Kain's empire to have come into existence. All events in that particular timeline beyond the Battle of the Last Stand remain pure mystery.


It would do much better at restoring the Pillars than only having them restored in the future timeline where the world is pretty much screwed already.

I wouldn't agree with that; as a matter of fact, this exact scenario you suggest was used (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37412) by Crystal Dynamics as a hypothetical example of something that would definitely cause a fatal paradox, and either tear the universe apart, or expel Kain himself from reality.


If we run through the events you can see that purifying past Kain rather than Future Kain would have added a extremely fatal paradox into the time stream that would probably have expulsed Raziel all together if he tried to enact it by crossing two Soul Reavers. If past Kain is purified than the purification of the Pillars themselves would have changed the course of history most certainly eliminating all the events that led up to the remaking of Raziel all together. If that event does not happen then all the events that led Raziel to eventually purify BO1 Kain would never have happened thus making the purification itself a paradox. A change of this magnitude would probably, as stated in SR2, just expunge the irritant completely from history thus in the end ruining all of Kain and Raziel's efforts. Therefore only future Kain can be restored.

Vanyelxp5
5th Oct 2013, 13:38
That actually makes sense in some ways. Though I'd bet that even purified, Kain still holds at least some desire to rule the world left over from his petty noble days. So unless young Kain was convinced beforehand to not create a vast vampiric empire, things would likely progress as normal... Just with prettier landscapes, and fewer apocalypses.

But of course, the humans would be in a better position too. The non-corrupted land would hold more food and such for them, so more would be likely to survive into that future... Which could pose many problems for the vampires.. So yea, I agree that it would be a major paradox at best.

Though that future being inevitable means that Kain never really had a choice at the pillars. If he had made the sacrifice, then Raziel would never have been reborn as a vampire, and then an angry wraith that would eventually end up inside The Reaver.


It's true that Soul Reaver 1 might not have played out exactly the same way on the very first timeline, but it would have had a similar end result. Raziel would have had to chase Kain through time, find The Reaver, kill some folks with it to fully arouse the blade's hunger, and then get sucked in. This sequence has to happen, otherwise The Soul Reaver Kain finds in Blood Omen cannot be The Soul Reaver.

If Raziel were not a wraith, then the blade would merely drain his blood. It is the fact that he is no longer a purely physical being at the time the blade stabs him that would allow his entire essence to be absorbed. Though the Wraith blade would explain that as well, he wouldn't have been able to obtain the wraith blade if he were not a Wraith capable of walking the spectral realm at the time that the physical blade shatters. Thus, the basic plot of Soul Reaver 1 and 2 would have to have remained mostly intact, even on the pre-Nemesis paradox timeline.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 14:49
But there's no question of "have to" about it, is my entire point. In the first timeline, Raziel's soul is indeed the entity in the Soul Reaver. That's where our knowledge ends. I don't know about you, but I can't jump to the conclusion that this one principle automatically means Kain had to be the one to resurrect Raziel, or that Kain even needed to refuse the sacrifice and live on at all, in order for that soul to somehow enter the blade. Nobody knows that. It's all an unknown quandary. We have no idea how much of later history was altered when William the Just died, so where would I get off saying that the story of Soul Reaver 1 isn't a product of reshuffling in itself?

Do you see what I'm getting at? If not, look at what Kain mentions in SR2: "Kill me now, and we both become pawns of history, dragged down the path of an artificial destiny. I was ordained to assume the role of Balance Guardian in Nosgoth, while you were destined to be its savior. But the map of my fate was redrawn by Moebius, and so in turn was yours." He is essentially saying outright that he believes the second timeline offers nothing more than a bad parody of his "original" fate in prior iterations of history.

The_Hylden
5th Oct 2013, 16:55
Would Raziel appearing before his wraith self in another time also create the potential for a paradox? I know it doesn't matter since his arc is done... But theorizing is fun!

Is it the presence of multiple versions of the same soul in the same place at the same time that causes the paradox? Or is it because they are trapped inside the blade?

If it is the multiple versions one... How many does it take? If it were only two, Raziel would be a walking paradox generator (one soul in him, one in the wraith blade.) And while Kain does suggest that Raziel is capable of exercising free will to a greater extent than others, he doesn't do it very often. Not killing Kain inside the Seraphan keep is the only example I can think of where he deviated from the established timeline without holding the Soul Reaver... And that was a huge struggle for him.

So perhaps, 2 versions make it possible, but difficult? Or, perhaps that was just Raziel being more stubborn than the timeline, and it had nothing to do with carrying himself on his arm.

It very much appears to hinge on Raziel having free will. Two of his souls that meet, or clash, having free will to do what time cannot predict. I don't believe Kain, for instance, could meet his former self and their meeting in any way have any paradox possibilities. They cannot alter the others' fate.

For me, it's always been the idea that Raziel, being that he has free will, cannot be accounted for in the ultimate extreme of what choice both incarnations of his souls could choose, which is to destroy one another. Both paradoxes in SR2 happen with Raziel fighting his elder self. The one with Kain and William's fight, both Reaver's are clashing against one another. Again, this is my take, but if the universe is rigid in a predestined path, with all beings within it having paths also determined, and you have a being suddenly that can not only choose however he likes, but winds up meeting another version of itself along history and being able to potentially harm and even try to destroy the other version of itself, that would be the ultimate paradoxical instrument. Logically, he can't destroy his former self, or he does not exist, and yet, here he is with the ability to try for it anyway. And Raziel carries the ultimate way to wipe out a being seen in Nosgoth, and that's to eat their very soul. So, two of him clash with the ability to Reaver the other one. What if he succeeds? Time is litterally thrown for a loop.

Short answer: that he has free will in general to act, and is unpredictable in what he will choose in such a moment, is what causes the paradox.

Some have theorized that Raziel, having the wraith blade bound to his arm, is in fact a walking paradox, and this is what gave him free will. I hold to what Kain described it as, his actual remaking from the Abyss as a wraith that gives him this ability. The wraith blade bound to his arm is not, usually, turned on him, so the way I take it, it's not causing a constant paradox. Only when it turns around, like it did after killing the human Raziel in SR2, only now what it's trying to coax him by force into the blade, does time go into flux.

I think it takes two of Raziel, but two of them in positions where there is a potential struggle that time cannot account for.

Side note: I also think that the scene in Avernus in Defiance didn't allow enough time to show the distortion. Or else, it was a mistake to leave it out here. At the end when Raziel goes into the sword, I believe because he chooses to freely and is not fighting this destiny, you do not see the distortion here, again, unless it was just a mistake -- and it would be a mistake to leave it out otherwise in both instances. I don't think the team was that rushed to make this oversight, though.



As far as we know.

Another question is... Did purifying Old Kain have any effect on Young Kain? Or could that be something that you get to do in another game's plot (travel back to the ending of Blood omen, fight off a couple of The Elder God's minions, and purify Young Kain before he makes the choice at the pillars.)

It would do much better at restoring the Pillars than only having them restored in the future timeline where the world is pretty much screwed already.


Young Kain was not affected by the purification, no. He can't be, or elder Kain would never need to be purified in the first place. Similarly, elder Kain cannot purify his younger self, because his destiny is already to exist corrupted until the point he is purified as elder Kain. Elder Kain is the same Kain as the younger version running around damning the Pillars. They're one and the same. So, if you're healed of some injury you sustained when you were younger 20 years from now, even if you went to the past to get healed, that cannot retroactively heal your younger self in the past. You have to get the injury then in the first place.

Denam_Pavel
5th Oct 2013, 17:29
But there's no question of "have to" about it, is my entire point. In the first timeline, Raziel's soul is indeed the entity in the Soul Reaver. That's where our knowledge ends. I don't know about you, but I can't jump to the conclusion that this one principle automatically means Kain had to be the one to resurrect Raziel, or that Kain even needed to refuse the sacrifice and live on at all, in order for that soul to somehow enter the blade. Nobody knows that. It's all an unknown quandary. We have no idea how much of later history was altered when William the Just died, so where would I get off saying that the story of Soul Reaver 1 isn't a product of reshuffling in itself?

Do you see what I'm getting at? If not, look at what Kain mentions in SR2: "Kill me now, and we both become pawns of history, dragged down the path of an artificial destiny. I was ordained to assume the role of Balance Guardian in Nosgoth, while you were destined to be its savior. But the map of my fate was redrawn by Moebius, and so in turn was yours." He is essentially saying outright that he believes the second timeline offers nothing more than a bad parody of his "original" fate in prior iterations of history.

Kain created Raziel with part of his own soul, so for it to be same soul inside the Reaver I d say yeah, it probably was Kain. And Vorador's brood was very nearly the only vampires left in Nosgoth anyway who A: Unlike don't really give a crap about Malek and B: Have very different ways of creating a vampire. And we know that Kain was the one wielding the Soul Reaver at the time in the first timeline and Raziel still had to fight the person who wielded the Reaver over a thousand of years later after becoming a vampire-wraith.

But you're right, in the first timeline Kain may have made the other decision.

Concerning what Kain said in SR2 you're taking it out of context. Kain had already been complaining about the corruption of the pillar which led him to be unable to be Balance Guardian. All that was already a thing in the first timeline.

Lord_Aevum
5th Oct 2013, 23:15
Concerning what Kain said in SR2 you're taking it out of context. Kain had already been complaining about the corruption of the pillar which led him to be unable to be Balance Guardian. All that was already a thing in the first timeline.

By no means. The thrust of his argument is that Moebius is the one to blame for compromising his and Raziel's destinies. Moebius has never been implicated by anyone as being responsible for the corruption of the Pillars, and even if he was, it's a sidebar which isn't even mentioned in that scene. He and Kain consistently acknowledge that bigger picture alterations to history are the main point of dispute (e.g. "conqueror of false histories", "now you are free to reclaim your true destiny", "do you believe for a moment that by this you have averted your fate").

Vanyelxp5
6th Oct 2013, 00:29
The corruption of the pillars was orchestrated by The Hylden Lord. Though whether Moebius was involved or not is still in question. I believe it is likely that he simply took advantage of the situation. Because he has access to all times and his own memories from them, I believe that he was not infected by Nupraptor's insanity (Though the Time pillar was still corrupted.) This would leave him with the clarity to do what he and the elder god believed to be necessary in order to wipe out the vampires from Nosgoth. Though his plan would ultimately fail.

Regardless, as Kain states, the ramifications of Ariel's murder, and the subsequent corruption of the entire Circle, were expertly calculated to bring about the greatest destruction to the Veil between Nosgoth and the Hylden's hell dimension... Though it would take two more games, and a nearly cataclysmic paradox to see it torn enough to cause a true breach.

The_Hylden
6th Oct 2013, 21:29
We're dealing with two deciding factors in what Kain feels is his robbed destiny. The first is when Raziel meets him at the Pillars, before any talk of Moebius:

"The repercussions of Ariel's murder were expertly calculated. The entire Circle descends into madness and I am tainted at the moment of my birth, instantly rendered incapable of fulfilling the role destiny had prepared for me."

And Ariel's murder and the corruption of the Circle happens still on the first timeline. So, even barring Moebius' exploits, Kain would still feel cheated of his destiny.

However, the second more lasting problem is Moebius' coercion which results in Kain going back in time and fighting William. That makes the problem far worse, near unsolvable. Now, that Kain has altered time, he replaced William with Moebius, as he states a far worse tyrant, who takes the new role's opportunity to wipe out all vampires, except Kain. This leaves Kain and all of Nosgoth truly behind the 8-ball, since no vampires left means no way to truly heal the Pillars and Nosgoth.



Since both, however, are Kain lamenting at his true destiny being altered, I can see how one could link the two events together. However, the Pillars were corrupt on the first timeline and I believe that Kain's true destiny was always to be the Scion, which means that this was his actual destiny, to be corrupted, along with the Pillars, and to refuse the Sacrifice which brings them down.

The difference is that on the first timeline, Vorador and other vampires would be still alive and Kain could have learned of the prophecies by way of Vorador, and with Kain looking through the Chronoplast, could decypher them better to understand the true meaning of Redeemer and Destroyer, and Kain's ultimate Scion destiny. They plan out a better empire together, but one always understood that the true intent was to alter things via Raziel, (so Kain's part of it in his brethren were always to be sacrifices). So, Raziel is always the Soul Reaver, yes, which means he always must first evolve into a wraith. The only means we know of that makes this happen is his "death" as a vampire, and the only vampires that evolve to become wraiths are those of Kain's lineage, since their souls are cursed with vampirism and they linger on in Spectral until they evolve in such a way. So, yes, Kain must always be the one to resurrect him. He must already have the ability to reave souls in order to become the Soul Reaver, and he probably also needs the gifts of his other brethren and he needs to eventually purify his future wraith blade self, which means he first needs that future wraith blade self on his arm after the Soul Reaver is shattered to release it. Kain needs that purification of the corruption if ever he's to fulfill that true destiny as Scion and heal the world of its corruption.


So, regardless of events being superficially different -- perhaps the when and slightly the how is altered -- we essentially still need the basic road map of events we've already seen play out. Perhaps Kain and Vorador groom Raziel for the inevitable from the start, so are completely upfront on this timeline. However, the alternative seems more of a possibility, that both he and Kain even on this timeline keep Raziel ignorant until they have him Abyssed, so Raziel can still be coerced to face Kain, fight him with the Reaver until Kain shatters it over him, and then to retrieve the wraith blade and pursue Kain through time, after getting the gifts from destroying his brethren that he'll need in the past. Now, however, instead of Kain trying to convince him that there's a larger threat in Moebius, etc., Kain and Vorador in the past simply tell him when he gets there, wait, this is the reason you were born and we had to do this for all of Nosgoth. This is your true destiny, to be the healer of the world.

Anyway, they still convince him to side with them and to heal the Scion eventually, and to willfully enter the sword. This is why I believe that events in Defiance are returning us, probably not exactly especially in the when of things, but pretty close to how it was to play out originally. Not only because Raziel being a wraith who feeds on souls is so crucial to it, not only because Kain's the only one who can make him the way that he was and most likely due to his making from Kain it's the reason for Raziel's eventual wings that he'll need to navigate Spectral and Material, not only because he is the one that eventually has to purify Kain as well, and everything else I've explained, but also because time makes only the slightest alterations along the path of least resistance even after accommodating a paradox.

diuqSehT
9th Oct 2013, 19:38
Ah, this topic would be the very thing Nosgoth is trying so hard not to deal with! Why did they disassociate themselves from plotlines entirely? This. Because of this. There should be a subtitle on here like "Don't worry, fight fans! There won't be a test on this!"

Vorador's influence will be small. That'd be a great surprise twist if he made a cameo appearance in Nosgoth to shock us with the fact he's still alive during the empire days. That'd be like a Buffy end-of-episode cliffhanger surprise. But it won't happen, just like it would have been great to have a playable hylden class and ancient vampire class and monster units made up of the devolved lieutenants and werewolves and necromancers who summon shades and skeletons and a secret way to activate one of the pillars so it gives you Energy powers as if you're the energy guardian. Alas, there's this constant focus on things making sense historically instead of being awesome. There should be a mode of the game where it's a screw-the-timeline fight arena with an open invitation for all creatures from all time periods to show up and compete. Like Vorador.

ZeroFernir
9th Oct 2013, 19:50
Ah, this topic would be the very thing Nosgoth is trying so hard not to deal with! Why did they disassociate themselves from plotlines entirely? This. Because of this. There should be a subtitle on here like "Don't worry, fight fans! There won't be a test on this!"

Vorador's influence will be small. That'd be a great surprise twist if he made a cameo appearance in Nosgoth to shock us with the fact he's still alive during the empire days. That'd be like a Buffy end-of-episode cliffhanger surprise. But it won't happen, just like it would have been great to have a playable hylden class and ancient vampire class and monster units made up of the devolved lieutenants and werewolves and necromancers who summon shades and skeletons and a secret way to activate one of the pillars so it gives you Energy powers as if you're the energy guardian. Alas, there's this constant focus on things making sense historically instead of being awesome. There should be a mode of the game where it's a screw-the-timeline fight arena with an open invitation for all creatures from all time periods to show up and compete. Like Vorador.

I suggested a Nosgoth 2 to be developed later, with the lore based on the ancient vampires's war.

But if Vorador came to war, he would stop all that in seconds. He would just TK-drink every blood drop from humans =P

Vanyelxp5
10th Oct 2013, 00:26
Don't they have to be wounded or dying before that works? I know they do in the games. (But that could just be a gameplay mechanic so that collecting better weapons actually has a purpose.

The_Hylden
11th Oct 2013, 03:05
Yeah, unless Vorador, like Kain, uses the Blood Shower spell. That drains all around within a limited area of their blood to him instantly. Otherwise, a human has to be very injured to use TK blood drink on in the games. Vorador even has to hit one of the Balance Guardian's he's assaulting in BO1's cutscenes with a blue energy spell first -- and I can imagine that spell was pretty devastating, given he follows another up with what looks to be implode. Instant flesh explosion! lol

As it stands, Vorador is not possible to be in the game now that it's confirmed to take place during the second timeline, since he died and was not, as far as we're aware, resurrected by anyone. Unless Kain did it somehow. It would have to be young Kain, though, as elder Kain was killed in William's Chapel by Raziel 30 years earlier and Janos was killed 500 years prior to that and never raised. So, I very much doubt that young Kain has the knowledge. Perhaps he did later when he found the knowledge to raise his Lieutenants, or even after he did so, but then I don't see that he'd have need of Vorador at that point.


The Lore would have been actually easier to incorporate, I feel, and would have opened up more opportunities for references, if they had followed the current fourth timeline. They could have referenced some Hylden tech, could have referenced Vorador, or his Cabal, or the reason why Sarafan would not necessarily be the noblest of lineages to equate oneself with in Nosgoth.