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88chaz88
25th Sep 2013, 17:18
How about we move this discussion from the "initial thoughts" thread to the very first theory thread?

So it seems that the Razielim will be one of the clans you can play as. It's an obvious choice, we all love Raziel, and who doesn't want to play a flying vampire? But it leaves questions.

First off, the artwork and ingame models make them look vastly mutated, much like the vampires in the far future (Soul Reaver), yet the Turelim and what look like the Melchiahim look very human. So... why?

Also there's their actual existence in question. In the events between Raziel's destruction and rebirth his entire clan had been wiped from Nosgoth "like excrement from a boot." We assume this is Kain's doing, and even Kain appears to admit to it in his own vague fashion. So it appears this wasn't done immediately though, like I had originally thought.

Could the devolved look of the Razielim be Kain's initial punishment? The two are probably unrelated though. :scratch:

Go ahead and theorise with me on this.

YourWaywardDestiny
25th Sep 2013, 17:55
The clan members probably follow the deterioration and/or adaptations of the Lieutenant who spawned them (but more slowly as not to upset the order of things where it goes Kain > Lieutenant>every other vampire) and as Raziel had been tossed into what amounts to a vortex of acid, so too did the Razielim suffer. It is likely that the longer Raziel floated around in the abyss, the further and further his clan suffered. Killing them all off might have even been a mercy of sorts for them after a certain point. Kain might have refrained from being direct about killing them off (goodness knows he's not shy about murder, and I can't really see him being too fussed about genocide if it fit his purpose) maybe the state of decay they were in was so shameful, he didn't even want to mention it.

Abolist
25th Sep 2013, 17:56
This has to be an alternate universe. Raziels clan was deleted.

Abolist
25th Sep 2013, 17:57
The clan members probably follow the deterioration and/or adaptations of the Lieutenant who spawned them (but more slowly as not to upset the order of things where it goes Kain > Lieutenant>every other vampire) and as Raziel had been tossed into what amounts to a vortex of acid, so too did the Razielim suffer. It is likely that the longer Raziel floated around in the abyss, the further and further his clan suffered. Killing them all off might have even been a mercy of sorts for them after a certain point. Kain might have refrained from being direct about killing them off (goodness knows he's not shy about murder, and I can't really see him being too fussed about genocide if it fit his purpose) maybe the state of decay they were in was so shameful, he didn't even want to mention it.
Vortex of acid? I must of missed something.

88chaz88
25th Sep 2013, 17:59
This has to be an alternate universe. Raziels clan was deleted.

We're never told when though.

YourWaywardDestiny
25th Sep 2013, 17:59
Vortex of acid? I must of missed something.

Ha ha, no, pretty sure you didn't. I was just equating Raziel being thrown into the Lake of the Dead with him being thrown into a lake of acid, considering the effect water has on vampires.

Limed00d
25th Sep 2013, 18:01
It's implied that the Razielim started a rebellion against Kain and the Dumahim after Raziel was betrayed.
Though their appearance can be retconned through the following; the ones who fights for the Vampire clans are either loyal or finds no other option but to aid them, while the others have either been crushed, or gone rogue (aka vampire exile)

Rynfear
25th Sep 2013, 18:03
Vortex of acid? I must of missed something.

Did you watch the Soul Reaver intro cinematic by any chance? Maybe you should. Carefully.

The action in this universe is pretty clearly set while Raziel is burning in the Abyss, after Kain tossed him but NOT before his rebirth. Vampires still retain most of their human form, as they did in the SR1 intro, so a lot of time couldn't have passed. I'd say it's 100 years max.

As for Razielim: yet unexplained plot development. Kain didn't just go kill them the instant he came back from the destroyed bridge. Vampires are perhaps linked to their sire so they also degenerate as Raziel burns; understandable since they evolved along with Raziel, makes sense that they'd devolve (remember how in SR1 the Dumahim are the weakest clan while their leader lies unmoving, impaled on spikes).

We know Kain killed the Razielim, but we don't know when, why or how, or what happened before he killed them. This leaves enough of a gap for the dev team to fill in. This matter shouldn't be of great concern.

88chaz88
25th Sep 2013, 18:09
It's implied that the Razielim started a rebellion against Kain and the Dumahim after Raziel was betrayed.

That sounds familiar, perhaps I vaguely remember it.

Abolist
25th Sep 2013, 18:13
Ahh the Lake of the Dead :p Well now that I have Soul Reaver booted might as well play for awhile....

Lovermanest
25th Sep 2013, 18:26
Correct me if im wrong, im remembering a scene from Soul Reaver 1 Raziel seeing his clan destroyed instantly after his death-rebirth. He was giving some info about that, right? I dont know from where do i remember it but i remember it was a fast wipe.

In that case, any chance to evolve?

88chaz88
25th Sep 2013, 18:30
Correct me if im wrong, im remembering a scene from Soul Reaver 1 Raziel seeing his clan destroyed instantly after his death. He was giving some info about that, right? I dont know from where do i remember it but i remember it was a fast wipe.

In that case, any chance to evolve?

Raziel didn't see anything instantly after his death. The period between his death and rebirth stretches for centuries at least. His clan was destroyed at some point in this time, but we're not explicitly told when.

Raziel_Rex
25th Sep 2013, 18:30
In the description say "The Sentinels are devolved descendants and represent the last remnants of the once-proud Clan Razielim". They suggest that most of the clan was eradicated and Sentinels are just vestiges of the remains of the Razielim.

Regarding the appearance of Turelim and Dumahim, remember these clans are younger than the Razielim clan. But it would be cool see the Turelim with big ears xD

MasterShuriko
25th Sep 2013, 18:31
Correct me if im wrong, im remembering a scene from Soul Reaver 1 Raziel seeing his clan destroyed instantly after his death. He was giving some info about that, right? I dont know from where do i remember it but i remember it was a fast wipe.

In that case, any chance to evolve?

It is true its in the beginning of Soul Reaver that he confronts Kain the first time. He then have the dialogue where he tells Kain that he had no right to do so.

Abolist
25th Sep 2013, 18:35
The head dude said he was going to answer this on Monday. I'm going to be sooooooooooo pissed if the answer is "Well...ugh... some of them lived somehow."

Vampmaster
25th Sep 2013, 18:54
The action in this universe is pretty clearly set while Raziel is burning in the Abyss, after Kain tossed him but NOT before his rebirth.

Don't you mean "not after his rebirth"? I agree with what you're saying though. It would be stupid to assume they all just died out overnight.

MasterShuriko
25th Sep 2013, 19:01
The head dude said he was going to answer this on Monday. I'm going to be sooooooooooo pissed if the answer is "Well...ugh... some of them lived somehow."

Oh no! This is a series that lives from the LoK games they will need to have a better explanation than " they survived.....somehow!"

MasterShuriko
25th Sep 2013, 19:02
Don't you mean "not after his rebirth"? I agree with what you're saying though. It would be stupid to assume they all just died out overnight.

It wasnt overnight. From the time Raziel was thrown into the abyss and to the point he walked Nosgoth 500 Years had gone by

ScionOfBalance
25th Sep 2013, 19:10
The impression that I'm getting and is somewhat disappointing to say the least, is they're smudging over certain plot-points and artistic/characterizations/obvious details in favor of fitting with their proposed vision. The same can be said a great deal for the Elder-Scrolls MMO for example, but I fear that Nosgoth is going to suffer on this account. I understand its meant to be different since its going to be a FTP game online, but still we know obviously what doesn't look/sit right with us, we're fans and if this game was still part of what it was meant to be with the new installment "Dead Sun"(that go canceled like "The Dark Prophecy") then maybe it wouldn't feel like its a bit shoe-horned in.

MasterShuriko
25th Sep 2013, 19:13
The impression that I'm getting and is somewhat disappointing to say the least, is they're smudging over certain plot-points and artistic/characterizations/obvious details in favor of fitting with their proposed vision. The same can be said a great deal for the Elder-Scrolls MMO for example, but I fear that Nosgoth is going to suffer on this account. I understand its meant to be different since its going to be a FTP game online, but still we know obviously what doesn't look/sit right with us, we're fans and if this game was still part of what it was meant to be with the new installment "Dead Sun"(that go canceled like "The Dark Prophecy") then maybe it wouldn't feel like its a bit shoe-horned in.

Only time will tell I presume.
Still hoping for a game that will tell the story of what happened after Defiance! =D

ScionOfBalance
25th Sep 2013, 19:17
Only time will tell I presume.
Still hoping for a game that will tell the story of what happened after Defiance! =D


That was the whole point of "The Dark Prophecy", and just like "Dead Sun", it was canceled under the reason that it wasn't going to meet ESTIMATED SALES EXPECTATIONS, sound familiar? This multiplayer game was mentioned to originally be the multiplayer component of "Dead Sun".

Rynfear
25th Sep 2013, 19:18
Don't you mean "not after his rebirth"? I agree with what you're saying though. It would be stupid to assume they all just died out overnight.

That's true, I did mean not after his rebirth.

MasterShuriko
25th Sep 2013, 19:20
That was the whole point of "The Dark Prophecy", and just like "Dead Sun", it was canceled under the reason that it wasn't going to meet ESTIMATED SALES EXPECTATIONS, sound familiar? This multiplayer game was mentioned to originally be the multiplayer component of "Dead Sun".

Hopefully they change their minds now when they see the fanbase is still alive and kickin!

Lord_Aevum
25th Sep 2013, 19:20
About this, there has always been opportunity and support from the original Soul Reaver team for the idea that the Razielim survived after Raziel's execution. It was first suggested (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=651&postcount=2) by former series director Amy Hennig herself, after Soul Reaver 2's release:


Q: Kain says he destoryed what he created. Did he destory Raziels clan, or did they die out like the ancients, being they are similiar?
A: This is currently unrevealed.


And by former series art director Daniel Cabuco in 2012 (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306#p306):


When I worked on Soul Reaver, I believed them all killed (with perhaps a survivor or two). If you look at the scheme, Raziel's clan was the most powerful and favored. The sudden loss of their leader, and favor with Kain meant that they were targets for destruction: The other clans would have gleefully torn them apart. Based on the original SR storyline, Kain couldn't risk any of them developing wings and showing that Kain's gifts were mutating and growing beyond the Master. Kain was always first with the gifts.. that's how he maintained power.
By the time Defiance was made, I was wistfully thinking that perhaps a few of them survived, hiding throughout the realm. It's a sad thing though, because they would still be tainted and doomed to devolution. By the time Raziel saw them again, he probably wouldn't recognize them. Even if they did survive, I imagine Kain would have to put them down, perhaps activating the silenced cathedral so he could start over.. IF he went back to the original SR1 timeline.

And how exactly did that exchange go in SR1 again – the game in which Kain spends every scene deliberately trolling Raziel to fuel his rage?


What have you done with my clan, degenerate? You have no right –


What I have made, I can also destroy, child.

No direct confession there.

MasterShuriko
25th Sep 2013, 19:34
About this, there has always been opportunity and support from the original Soul Reaver team for the idea that the Razielim survived after Raziel's execution. It was first suggested (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=651&postcount=2) by former series director Amy Hennig herself, after Soul Reaver 2's release:



And by former series art director Daniel Cabuco in 2012 (http://www.dcabdesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=306#p306):



And how exactly did that exchange go in SR1 again – the game in which Kain spends every scene deliberately trolling Raziel to fuel his rage?





No direct confession there.

He didnt deny either =D

ViolentMuffin
25th Sep 2013, 20:06
Even if some of Razielim survived, I'm not quite sure that they would devolve so fast. Also, I’m not convinced by the theory, that vampires share the link between parent and offspring. There wasn’t anything said about it in the game... Of course, they share similar traits, but it only indicates their membership to particular family/species.

Vampmaster
25th Sep 2013, 20:52
I suggested an explation over on the Eidos forums that the Razielim retreated to Dark Eden to escape persecution from the other clans. It would make sense that they would flee to the one place where even other vampires would fear to tread. It's a place I'd really like to see revisited and would make a great explanation for their faster devolution, since it mutates everything that lives there.

The_Hylden
25th Sep 2013, 21:02
Since others have gone to the what we currently know, I'll also add points to clear up about this:

This is set a couple of centuries after Raziel was Abyssed. Over the years, we've uncovered that Raziel is in the Abyss for 500 years before waking up and the events of ingame SR1 take place.

So, there are still 300 years to go before that happens. The Razielim were being persecuted by the clans. Kain's left the empire to its own devices and the clans also have started infighting amongst themselves. The one thing rallying them all, including reluctantly the Razilim left, is the uprising of the humans.

That all does fit with what we could imagine happened early on after Raziel is abyssed, or still before the halfway point. It wouldn't be like the Razielim would be instantly eradicated. It would take time, effort, and they wouldn't just submit for execution.


I appreciate Vampmaster's thoughts on this, as I do think inherently that these Razielim appear too devolved. The flee to Dark Eden would be something tangible to explain why they're so grotesque.

I do also think they look worse than they potentially are, due to that patchwork helmet and clothing that looks almost like flesh.

The wings don't look right not being their bat-like wings and not attached lower on the body. And we need the claws and feet, and the ears. Other than that, the potential is there to fit within the universe.

Swagraven
25th Sep 2013, 21:07
I think it might be worth it to discuss exactly how evolutions of the Lieutenants effected their clans. We don't really know much more about it other than knowing they're directly related. We don't know to what extent, or how quickly it changes their offspring. In the description of the backstory given to the Legacy of Kain wiki, George Kelion says "...not long after Kain cast Raziel into the Abyss, Kain disappeared. Gone, in search of a way to restore Nosgoth to the world it was before, Kain left the world in the hands of his lieutenants." Meaning there would be a time where Kain wasn't even there to destroy the Razilim himself. They're not taking "What I have made, I can also destroy, child." at face value. At the LoK wiki they infer that the Razilim have become a subjugated race.
Now, the question I have here is, is Raziel's descent into the Lake of the Dead causing the remnants of his clan to devolve more quickly, is the cruelty of the other clans forcing them into an evolutionary change without Raziel in order to survive, is it a combination of the two things, or is it neither?

The_Hylden
25th Sep 2013, 21:15
Raziel states that Kain evolved first, then the clan leaders and their clans, inherent, follow. The corruption of Kain's soul is what lead to their faster devolution later on. The portion of his soul they have was supposed to be indicative of how far they'd fall into monstrosity, basically, with the less of Kain's gift received, the more monstrous and grotesque. However, they all become pretty monstrous. I think the Razielim would need some other explanation for their more ruined state. They should have wings, because a couple of centuries would be enough to inherit that trait, but they also should be more human-like.

I keep noting this, but also Rahab shows he's evolving "before the master" in Kain when Raziel presents his wings in SR1's intro. You see his gill slits on the CGI model, so it would be most interesting to see how fishy the Razielim are at this point, heh.

Swagraven
25th Sep 2013, 21:55
That's true, but we don't see how closely linked the clan is to Lieutenant. Basically, it's never really revealed whether or not the clan is being directly influenced by the Lieutenant or directly influenced by Kain's soul. Is it Kain's soul ruining them or the Lieutenant being ruined by Kain's soul?
I also want to know how Rahab discovered he was immune to water? Did...did someone push him in one day? Why wouldn't they go on for centuries thinking Rahab just had weird embarrassing growths on the side of his neck? Maybe that's the official reason why Kain didn't really care that Rahab had something he didn't that he told the rest of the Lieutenants. He just looked at the side of Rahab's neck and went "gross, glad that's not happening to me." XD

RainaAudron
25th Sep 2013, 22:00
I was wondering that too, Daniel Cabuco explained it like this:

As for spare time, Rahabim would have been trying to overcome their weakness to water by trying to improve the time they could spend in contact with it. Perhaps drinking blood at the same time the water burned them so their systems could heal and slowly, painfully adapt. Melchiahim would be working to 'fix' their slowly rotting bodies, Zephonim would be learning the ways of wall crawling, Dumahim would be perfecting their weapon talents, and Turelim would would be learning how to hone their Telekenesis on poor captured souls. Razielim would use their spellcraft to spy on other clans, and manipulate them with a wry hand. I didn't have a count for the number of vampires in a clan, but there were hundreds, and they were not even in number. Melchaihim would outnumber Turelim 3 to 1, but as far as abilities go, that would make them even.

Lord_Aevum
25th Sep 2013, 22:08
That's true, but we don't see how closely linked the clan is to Lieutenant. Basically, it's never really revealed whether or not the clan is being directly influenced by the Lieutenant or directly influenced by Kain's soul.

I'm quite sure they're completely independent of the lieutenant after the original resurrection, or otherwise the Dumahim should not have continued to devolve into hideous rhino-lizard-things after Dumah's murder.

Limed00d
25th Sep 2013, 22:12
I'm quite sure they're completely independent of the lieutenant after the original resurrection, or otherwise the Dumahim should not have continued to devolve into hideous rhino-lizard-things after Dumah's murder.

To be completely specific, Dumah never really died, but he was trapped between two realms since his body wasn't dissolved or otherwise completely destroyed, as it is the only way to actually kill a Vampire in the material realm (He was impaled by three spears, impalement is a temporary solution to any vampire pest, people!). So, he wasn't really "dead", but in a "coma" induced by a tad too much chinese pin treatment.

Therefore, it's quite possible that the clans truly are dependable on their sire, but I like to think that you're right.

Moesph
25th Sep 2013, 22:16
I'm quite sure they're completely independent of the lieutenant after the original resurrection, or otherwise the Dumahim should not have continued to devolve into hideous rhino-lizard-things after Dumah's murder.
Technically Dumah didn't die, his soul still lingered around his trapped body, if they are indeed linked to their Lt's souls, his one was still around to maintain that link, and so was Raziel's. However, Turel was whisked away to another time. So who knows.

Swagraven
25th Sep 2013, 22:17
And this is why I think just a discussion of how the evolution of the clans happens is pretty damn important. Nosgoth will hopefully explain a thing or two about it. It's not really that clear.

Lord_Aevum
25th Sep 2013, 22:26
We could put it like this then; if there is a persistent link between vampires and their sires, it's never been mentioned in the series to date. To me, Kain possesses the blood curse and Nupraptor's curse, and passes these on to his sons, who in turn pass them to theirs. In my estimation, those ailments from Kain's soul are the only ongoing sources of their evolution and devolution, not Kain's soul itself, or anybody else's soul. Otherwise Daniel might not have described the Razielim as "still doomed to devolution" post-Defiance.

Swagraven
25th Sep 2013, 22:38
To me, Kain possesses the blood curse and Nupraptor's curse, and passes these on to his sons, who in turn pass them to theirs.
It might be the same curse the ancients had due to Janos' heart being inside him, but I really hesitate to call Kain's vampirism the blood curse, just out of the principal of Kain being so drastically different than the ancients. Mortanius may have more to do with Kain's "curse" than the Heart of Darkness, we wouldn't know.

RainaAudron
25th Sep 2013, 22:42
I would say it is wise to distinctify those two, like Aeviternity said - the blood curse comes from the Heart of Darkness, since it´s from a cursed vampire, but the Nupraptor´s curse is different, causing devolution in Kain´s offspring, until he got healed.

Lord_Aevum
25th Sep 2013, 22:49
I subscribe to this (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/bloodcurse.php) for my definition of the blood curse.

The_Hylden
25th Sep 2013, 23:07
Well, they are linked to their clan sires in that each clan's traits follow said sire. So, something of each Lieutenant's soul passed on within their offspring. Yes, they'll continue to devolve even after their sire has been "killed" in the material realm, but I guess as long as they still contain the leader's initial soul portion, or essence, they follow suit with their changes. For instance, All Dumahim are like their sire, perhaps a bit more devolved. Green lizard skin, heavy hide, large fangs, etc. Turelim all look very much like Turel before he went on all fours. Large ears, rodent-like face, advanced TK. All Rahabim are fish-like and spit water projectiles, have the same weakness to the sun. All Zephonim are bug-like; all Melchiahim are barely able to hold their rot and decay at bay.

Now, of course, all Razielim evolve wings. If they were all just evolving/devolving independent, only getting changes from the corruption, then each clan member would suffer unique effects. We don't see that. Whatever their sire was to get, they will get. Kain is the unique beast, but these clan leaders' changes will follow into their offspring pretty faithfully.

Swagraven
25th Sep 2013, 23:12
All I want to point out is that there are a few things here and there that aren't ever specifically stated, and that leaves mountains of different interpretations on various things. Depending on how Nosgoth explains it, there might be a very good reason for the Razilim looking the way they do. Personally, I wouldn't have made them as monstrous as they are, but we have to keep an open mind here. They've brought a lot of attention to lore to most other things so far, so we'll see.

Janos7
25th Sep 2013, 23:53
Just putting in my input here but first we have to keep in mind that the whole point of the Legacy of Kain series was that Kain was creating paradoxes into the time stream. The Razielim can exist in any version of the time stream. Secondly, 500 years past after Raziel was thrown into the lake of the dead, in that time ALL the clans EVOLVED(not Devolved) into seperate species based on the blood of the lieutenants they spawned from (Rahabs clan gained immunity to water but increased vulnerability to sunlight). All clans however took on the nonhuman appearance. Even Vorador and Janos although being some of the first vampires recorded by human records have visible nonhuman traits(Janos' skin and Voradors skin and ears.) The only problem is due to Raziel being thrown into the abyss NO ONE knows how the Razielim would have actually looked as they evolved other than their wings.

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 00:23
All clans however took on the nonhuman appearance. Even Vorador and Janos although being some of the first vampires recorded by human records have visible nonhuman traits(Janos' skin and Voradors skin and ears.)

Murals in Defiance (specifically, the mural depicting the raising of the pillars to vanquish the Hylden, which would have been before they were cursed) indicate that the Ancient Vampires were always blue, and always had wings. The original curse by the Hylden only seemed to be bloodlust and immortality. It seems as though, as soon as the ancients started trying to pass vampirism on to humans that it changed those afflicted with it over time. So, interesting note here, it seems to only manifest change in a person if they are human.

MasterShuriko
26th Sep 2013, 01:09
If I´m not completely wrong The Pillars chose their guardians from birth, and since Vampires were no longer born, new subjects had to be created to sustain the Pillars. Humans were selected by Vampires to be given their dark gift and to serve the Pillars as vampires alongside their masters. The humans eventually rejected the gift and overthrew their superiors, claiming the Pillars for themselves.

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 01:13
That about sums it up, yeah.

MasterShuriko
26th Sep 2013, 01:22
That about sums it up, yeah.

It just struck me out of the back of my head. Another thing the curse brought the Vampires was Sterility!
Thats some mean **** to pull!

Come on! Thats just low!

Swagraven
26th Sep 2013, 02:02
lol Well, the Hylden were being banished to a separate dimension. Can't blame them for being a little (really) spiteful.

MasterShuriko
26th Sep 2013, 02:20
One does not cause hindrence to a mans ability to procreate!

88chaz88
26th Sep 2013, 08:18
It just struck me out of the back of my head. Another thing the curse brought the Vampires was Sterility!
Thats some mean **** to pull!

Come on! Thats just low!

Um... yeah... It took the Vampires out of the circle of life and death making their god abandon them. That's sort of the whole point of the blood curse.

LordNekronom
26th Sep 2013, 09:53
Let's face it, the ancient vampires deserved it, starting a genocidal war with an enemy because they refuse to die....then banishing them to a hellish dimension.

Markelim
26th Sep 2013, 12:26
The Hylden Curse
I don't think the Hylden just decided to mess with the vampires manhoods for no reason :) The Hylden curse was created out of pure hatred, but the curse was not just designed to make the ancient vampires suffer. By giving the vampires sterility they also ensured that no new vampire guardians could be born as pillar guardians, thus weakening the seal that held the Hylden imprisoned over time.

The Razielim Clan
When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

Connection between clan leader and his minions
Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.

MasterShuriko
26th Sep 2013, 12:50
The Hylden Curse
I don't think the Hylden just decided to mess with the vampires manhoods for no reason :) The Hylden curse was created out of pure hatred, but the curse was not just designed to make the ancient vampires suffer. By giving the vampires sterility they also ensured that no new vampire guardians could be born as pillar guardians, thus weakening the seal that held the Hylden imprisoned over time.

The Razielim Clan
When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

Connection between clan leader and his minions
Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.

Awesome point!

looking at you designers now >.> :poke:

Zayras
26th Sep 2013, 17:26
The Razielim Clan
When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.


I agreed with Markelim, they look extremely devolve. Been one of the strongest vampiric clans they should have a more human like appearance.

Rynfear
26th Sep 2013, 17:42
The Hylden Curse
I don't think the Hylden just decided to mess with the vampires manhoods for no reason :) The Hylden curse was created out of pure hatred, but the curse was not just designed to make the ancient vampires suffer. By giving the vampires sterility they also ensured that no new vampire guardians could be born as pillar guardians, thus weakening the seal that held the Hylden imprisoned over time.

The Razielim Clan
When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

Connection between clan leader and his minions
Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.

I think the Hylden war was mainly religious. The Old God led the ancient vampires to war against the Hylden, which did not worship. The Hylden responded by devising a curse which cut the vampires off from their god (as told in Defiance). Sterility and immortality go hand-in-hand not because the Hylden didn't want the vampires to have sex or children. They didn't want the vampires' souls feeding the Wheel. Blood hunger was probably a side-effect, but it fits pretty nicely with having the vampires degenerate into predators. Perhaps the world the Hylden envisioned for vampires was Future Nosgoth itself: a barren wasteland, a time of fear, vampires falling apart with stagnation and decay.

As for the Razielim, Melchiah's exact words are "Do you believe for a moment that our Lord would risk his empire upon an upstart inheritance?" I don't know what this means exactly, but it doesn't hint at a rebellion, just the possibility of it - or at least that's what Melchiah thinks about Kain's genocide.

And lastly, the Dumahim are the weakest vampires in Nosgoth in Soul Reaver 1. Their leader is the only one which is not currently alive, Turel being gone for a presumably short period. Dumah however has been dead for centuries, and his "once proud brood [...], believing themselves invulnerable" have been "reduced to scavengers". If this doesn't hint at a connection between master and kindred, then I don't know what does.
So it would indeed fit that Raziel's soul being tormented while his body rots away underwater would trigger his brood's decay just as Dumah's soul being tormented while his body hardens from centuries of stagnation would also devolve the Dumahim.

The_Hylden
26th Sep 2013, 21:58
Let's face it, the ancient vampires deserved it, starting a genocidal war with an enemy because they refuse to die....then banishing them to a hellish dimension.

Not that the Hylden refused to die. They refused to believe in submition to the Wheel of Fate, and to believe in the Ancients' God -- the Elder God. They weren't immortal, that we can surmise. Once they were banished to the Demon Realm, that realm is said by the Hylden Lord to have "ensured [their] immortality." It wouldn't need to be ensured if they already were immortal.

As has been stated above, this was all over religious beliefs. Probably other disagreements, as well, but that's the major catalyst, and why the curse was sterility. It was the most horrific thing to do to these true believers, separating them from their cycle of death and rebirth that they believed in, and essentially separating them from their God. It lead to many of the Ancients taking their own lives in a desperate act to be reunited with the EG and the wheel, so it served its function exactly as intended.

Evill3unny
26th Sep 2013, 22:32
Marklim is making some very interesting points here; Good stuff man!


The Razielim Clan
When Raziel meets Melchiah in the future it's hinted that Kain stuck around to stop the Razielim from starting a full-on rebellion against him and the other lieutenants. It is fully possible that the Razielim survived for some time, but I doubt they would have lasted long against someone like Kain. So I'm all for a more human-like character design for the Razielim clan, it just doesn't seem plausible that they survived long enough to become such devolved versions of their master.

It seems to me we don't know enough about clan politics to know anything like that. For all we know Raziel had a second who took over after Raziel was executed. That might have been a major embaracement for the clan. But being Kain's first, the Razielim clan is probably the strongest clan. And why would Kain want to destroy part of his army and empire anyway? As long as they continue to serve Kain it's at least plausable Kain kept them around and that they only started getting clobbered after Kain disappeared.


Connection between clan leader and his minions
Going by what the games establish, there are only two things that are symbiotically bound in Nosgoth. First off, Raziel and the Soul Reaver, and then the pillar guardians. There's no connection between Kain's lieutenants and their offspring, they simply share the same traits that are handed down to them though their blood. The abilities they develop mainly depend on how much of the dark gift that they're born with. Melchiah was the last to be raised and recieved the least of Kain's gift, making his clan devolve much faster. Raziel on the other hand was the first-born and was given the biggest amount of the dark gift, which once again means that the Razielim should not look as devolved as they do in this game. I hope there's a good explanation for it, or a re-design.

I don't think we know enough about devolution in LoK vampires to make such a claim. Consider elder Kain; he didn't devolve. So it's clearly not just a matter of: The older you get the more you devolve. Vorador didn't devolve either (though we don't know how old he is, he could be much older then the SR1 vamps). It could be something Kain did intentionally when he gave his offspring the dark gift, as a way of controlling them. Or maybe something he did wrong, or something he couldn't do. The vamps he made were made of Serafan that had been dead for over a millennium. I actually like this. It means there is probably something going on with this vampirisme thing that we haven't heard before. Sounds to me like we'll be getting an addition to our lore, which I'm all in favor of :D

Markelim
26th Sep 2013, 23:20
I think the Hylden war was mainly religious. The Old God led the ancient vampires to war against the Hylden, which did not worship. The Hylden responded by devising a curse which cut the vampires off from their god (as told in Defiance). Sterility and immortality go hand-in-hand not because the Hylden didn't want the vampires to have sex or children. They didn't want the vampires' souls feeding the Wheel. Blood hunger was probably a side-effect, but it fits pretty nicely with having the vampires degenerate into predators. Perhaps the world the Hylden envisioned for vampires was Future Nosgoth itself: a barren wasteland, a time of fear, vampires falling apart with stagnation and decay.

As for the Razielim, Melchiah's exact words are "Do you believe for a moment that our Lord would risk his empire upon an upstart inheritance?" I don't know what this means exactly, but it doesn't hint at a rebellion, just the possibility of it - or at least that's what Melchiah thinks about Kain's genocide.

And lastly, the Dumahim are the weakest vampires in Nosgoth in Soul Reaver 1. Their leader is the only one which is not currently alive, Turel being gone for a presumably short period. Dumah however has been dead for centuries, and his "once proud brood [...], believing themselves invulnerable" have been "reduced to scavengers". If this doesn't hint at a connection between master and kindred, then I don't know what does.
So it would indeed fit that Raziel's soul being tormented while his body rots away underwater would trigger his brood's decay just as Dumah's soul being tormented while his body hardens from centuries of stagnation would also devolve the Dumahim.

You bring up good points. Don't have much to add about the Hylden, it all sounds about right.

Here's how I interpreted Melchiah's words. There was indeed a "possibility" for an uprising. The Razielim were the strongest kin around and their leader was brutally betrayed, they had the power and the motivation to go up against the other clans. But Kain didn't want to risk his empire so he struck them down before they could oppose him. It's all speculation, maybe the Razielim managed to fight back, maybe they submitted to Kain and got eradicated, we don't know. I'm simply saying that a rebellion "could" have happened. It would explain the plot-hole of why the Razielim are still around. It's a possible plot-development that the designers for this new game can and, IMO, should exploit.

As for Dumah, he was technically never dead, just sustained in limbo. He even states that his time in limbo just made him stronger, this may very well just be boasting on his character's part, but not entirely impossible. I'm afraid your argument isn't enough to convince me. If two oranges rot at the same time you don't assume they have a spiritual connection, you assume they were born around the same time and went through the same life-cycle, that's an aweful comparison I apologize, but it explains how I see it. I think both our theories can work, but I personally will stick to my opinion that the kin devolve in similar ways, not because they share a symbiotic bond, but because they are born with the same blood and inherant weaknesses.

Evill3unny also brings up good points I completely forgot, it is stated that the lieutenants recieved different proportions of Kain's dark gift. He may have done this on purpose to make Raziel into his strongest pawn and make sure they never got too strong. As for why Kain doesn't devolve, I think it has to be linked to the fact that he's the host of the heart of darkness while the others are only given a small amount of it's power, plus he's the balance guardian.

Either way, no matter what the writers decide to go with, I think it would be a good idea to at least give the Razielim optional skins that you customize them with, one a bit more monstrous and one a little more human.

Janos7
27th Sep 2013, 07:58
Another contribution to the inhuman appearance in all the clans is the fact that Kain ISN'T a born vampire. Kain was raised from the dead as a vampire which makes his vampiric blood already impure. The murals indicated that the true vampires were a winged race with blue skin and as evidenced by the difference in appearance between the two oldest remaining vampires(Vorador and Janos.) The dark gift being passed on from the lieutenants is just a form of inbreeding as they have a diminished version of the gift and what they pass on to their offsprings is even more diminished.

LauraOrganaSolo
27th Sep 2013, 09:17
I keep noting this, but also Rahab shows he's evolving "before the master" in Kain when Raziel presents his wings in SR1's intro. You see his gill slits on the CGI model, so it would be most interesting to see how fishy the Razielim are at this point, heh.

I don't think the concept art (http://www.boydlake.com/gallery_loksr3.html) counts as canon. It would defeat everything stated in the Soul Reaver 1 intro and the basis (or what everyone in-game thought was the basis) for Kain's "execution" of Raziel. Otherwise, Rahab would have been the first one to "have the honor of surpassing [their] lord."

Yes, the Dark Chronicle has a clear screenshot of Rahab in the intro and there are lines on his neck but notice he isn't scaly like the concept art.

Vampmaster
27th Sep 2013, 10:02
I don't think the concept art (http://www.boydlake.com/gallery_loksr3.html) counts as canon. It would defeat everything stated in the Soul Reaver 1 intro and the basis (or what everyone in-game thought was the basis) for Kain's "execution" of Raziel. Otherwise, Rahab would have been the first one to "have the honor of surpassing [their] lord."

Yes, the Dark Chronicle has a clear screenshot of Rahab in the intro and there are lines on his neck but notice he isn't scaly like the concept art.

Weren't those the same models that were used in the SR1 intro?

Lord_Aevum
27th Sep 2013, 10:12
Yes, they were.

DCab has explained that Kain did not equate Rahab's gills to supremacy over him.

Kriegson
27th Sep 2013, 11:39
Either way, no matter what the writers decide to go with, I think it would be a good idea to at least give the Razielim optional skins that you customize them with, one a bit more monstrous and one a little more human.

The problem here is that giving them such vastly different appearances is a bit of a cop-out. Imo it should be one way or the other. Horribly disfigured with a plausible explanation (Degradation due to raziel) or more human being that raziel was only just tossed into the lake of souls and so they haven't begun to be so effected, or simply are strong enough to resist such devolution for a time.

OT:
At any rate, I can see them [Razielim] existing simply due to the variegates concerning their demise. Kain never said specifically when or how, and their potential rebellion also plays into the current state of things (The clans falling upon each other, humans getting time to rebuild and forcing them to join once again). Once the humans are put down (unless we are in yet another timeline :P) I imagine the Razielim will have served their purpose and will all be executed by order of Kain or slaughtered by the other clans now that their common enemy has disappeared, but the clans are still somewhat aligned in purpose.


So my basic theory...

*Past: the Razielem likely rebelled when Raziel was killed/banished, starting the conflict between the various clans, allowing humans to gain strength.

*Present: The clans joined together to fight humans.

*Future? Once the humans are dead, the clans (Still united) turn upon the Razielem, being the eldest and most powerful, to quickly defeat them.

ZeroFernir
27th Sep 2013, 13:20
I am afraid that it is some kind of link that razielim had with Raziel... because Raziel got wings, and his clan got it too as soon as him... so when he was thrown on the abyss, may the razielim suffered that too...

MasterShuriko
27th Sep 2013, 14:13
To the Razielim Raziel was the Master so it would only be natural to think that if Kain was the first to evolve and the "minions" where to follow shortly after the Razielim would soon follow Raziels example.
But since the intro in Soul Reaver where Raziel presented his evolved form to the others I think he just had gotten them from the state of evolution that he just up from. So his Clan might not have gotten that far at the time.

Janos7
28th Sep 2013, 07:15
But since the intro in Soul Reaver where Raziel presented his evolved form to the others I think he just had gotten them from the state of evolution that he just up from. So his Clan might not have gotten that far at the time.

this, and how it is shown that the Necromancy raised vampires all evolve at different rates and their traits are affected by A)Thier dark gift, and B)What is needed for survival. For all we know Kain can be in his fully evolved state due to how corrupt his version of vampirism is coupled with his corruption due to being the guardian of balance. But if all vampires follow one linear path of evolution no matter if they were raised or born then both Kain and Vorador would be similar to Janos in appearance. That's obviously not the case here. Their evolutionary paths could just be plain "genetics" working: Wings being the trait that appears in Raziel, Gills being the trait that appears in Rahab. All of Kains sons could have eachothers genetic traits but those traits don't necessarily have to show up in everyone. The fact remains that we don't know what Raziel's appearance would have been had he not been executed by Kain. It's not a concept many people like to accept and some people may want deeper explainations but just like in Melchiahs case some people just get the **** end of the genetics stick.

Adran06
29th Sep 2013, 00:54
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Razielim are devolved so much entirely because they are the oldest, most powerful clan, and Raziel was ALREADY devolving when he was tossed into the Lake of the Dead. He hadn't devolved much at that point, but it can easily be assumed the wings were the first sign of his degeneration. In a way, Kain saved him from suffering the ultimate fate of his brothers, who more or less all went insane. The Razielim would likewise have continued the degeneration that Raziel had started. If we assume the game is set 100-200 years AFTER Raziel's fall, that's MORE than enough time for the oldest clan to degeneration more than the others. But even with them being the most obvious, look at the other two clans shown. Both of them ALSO show signs of degeneration, just not to the same extreme degrees as the Razielim.

The Turelim are monstrously huge compared to humans, with bulging muscles and clearly altered skin tones. While they don't have the deformed heads of future Turelim, is that REALLY all that less devolved in comparision to the Razielim? The Turelim never had a physical deformity aside from their ears (in fact, I think the only ones with obvious physical deformities at this point in time would logically be the Razielim and the Zephonim, and maybe the Melchahim if they're already decaying at this point).

Based on all of this, I'd assume its simple logic for the Razielim to be like they are.

Vanyelxp5
29th Sep 2013, 02:59
Raziel was the first "born" of Kain's "sons" and as such, received the greatest portion of The Dark Gift. His was also the first clan, and thus it has been around a bit longer than the others. How much? We don't know.

I do think that the Dumahim should be the tyrant class... I know this is the wrong thread for it... but it bugs me how their leader is basically The Hulk encased in Juggernaut armor... and they get to be the tiny assassin types?


Back to the Razielim though... As the first clan, they would show the most signs of evolution/devolution. (I know, repeating myself a bit.) So, we now have the question of "Why are they alive?" To which, I have a simple answer.

Raziel was Kain's right hand man, right? So he'd be the one that Kain sent off to do stuff. So, what if, after having him tossed into the abyss, he simply told his clan that he sent him off on a mission?

Obviously such a lie wouldn't hold them for too long, but perhaps, it was just long enough for the human rebellion to start, and the clan to begin going just a bit crazy... Then, after the rebellion is over... The clan discovers the truth, and Kain, or one of the other (Or perhaps all of the other) lieutenants acting in his stead, slaughters the remaining Razielim.

sarenwords
29th Sep 2013, 03:07
(remember how in SR1 the Dumahim are the weakest clan while their leader lies unmoving, impaled on spikes).

Actually, Melchiah's vampire fledglings were the weakest. Dumah was third born, so his fledglings are third strongest. Mostly brutish and tough. Turel being second born was second strongest, and was granted the gift of telepathy and psychokinesis.

Anansios
29th Sep 2013, 23:40
Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Razielim are devolved so much entirely because they are the oldest, most powerful clan, and Raziel was ALREADY devolving when he was tossed into the Lake of the Dead. He hadn't devolved much at that point, but it can easily be assumed the wings were the first sign of his degeneration. In a way, Kain saved him from suffering the ultimate fate of his brothers, who more or less all went insane. The Razielim would likewise have continued the degeneration that Raziel had started. If we assume the game is set 100-200 years AFTER Raziel's fall, that's MORE than enough time for the oldest clan to degeneration more than the others. But even with them being the most obvious, look at the other two clans shown. Both of them ALSO show signs of degeneration, just not to the same extreme degrees as the Razielim.

The Turelim are monstrously huge compared to humans, with bulging muscles and clearly altered skin tones. While they don't have the deformed heads of future Turelim, is that REALLY all that less devolved in comparision to the Razielim? The Turelim never had a physical deformity aside from their ears (in fact, I think the only ones with obvious physical deformities at this point in time would logically be the Razielim and the Zephonim, and maybe the Melchahim if they're already decaying at this point).

Based on all of this, I'd assume its simple logic for the Razielim to be like they are.

I really like what you have to say. I might prefer a slightly more humanoid Razielim, but it isn't unreasonable that they would be look so (d)evolved. Look at SR1; Raziel has wings. Raziel is the Least human looking of all the vampires. It makes sense that his clan would look the least human. I don't think the abyss would have anything to do with his descendants appearance. We weren't given details on how Raziel's clan was killed or who expressly did it. We know centuries passed before Raziel reawoke; that is not a plot hole. Raziel was the strongest, so it makes sense that it would take time and effort for his entire clan to be exterminated.

Also, remember:
1. Kain is not a blood-borne vampire like Vorador and his descendants. Mortanus created Kain with Magic and Janos' heart.
-- Vorador, Circle-Era-Vampires, and Ancients are poor comparisons.
2. Kain created vampires by reaching into the spectral realm and retrieving souls using Kain's own soul. SR1 states this.
3. Raziel was the first of Kain's children and received the largest portion of Kain's gift Melchiah received the least.
4. Raziel also was the first to have a physical mutation (evolution or devolution).

It isn't reasonable to assume that the Lieutenants Personally made each vampire in their clan, so I would not assume that the events that happen to the sire will directly impact the sired vampire. As such, I wouldn't imagine that the waters of the Abyss would have any impact on his clan.

Dumah's clan was reduced to scavengers because their clan was decimated by the humans. When your home is destroyed and you leader is killed, it tends to turn the people into refugees (look at the modern world...). Dumah's death didn't have any symbiotic effects, at least there was no direct evidence. Raziel's death would likely have a similar political effect. With 5 jealous clan leaders remaining, the formerly favored clan that lost it's leader would likely be the first to fall. In SR1, we saw that the Raziliem were wiped out, but there is no reason to assume that it happened over night. This game takes place between the execution and resurrection of Jesu..Raziel :P Nosgoth.com states that they are the last survivors.

Also, remember that the vampires did not mirror their clan leaders. SR1 bosses look Really different from their clanlings and more humanoid.

Reidbynature
29th Sep 2013, 23:56
It wouldn't need to be ensured if they already were immortal.


What if by submitting to worship of the Elder God they had to lose their immortality and by being banished they ensured their immortality meaning that they kept it by being banished? That to me seems like a valid alternative interpretation to the wording.

Vanyelxp5
30th Sep 2013, 00:10
My theory is that, while the Hylden originally were not truly immortal, they did not die of age. (Pretty impossible to win a war against somethign that can't be killed if you can be.)

In being banished, they seem to have lost (Or possibly voluntarily shed) their corporeal bodies in favor of the ability to possess others who are still on the normal plane of existence. Without a corporeal form, they cannot die at all (Until Raziel wakes up and starts eating souls) and are thus, truly immortal.

The_Hylden
30th Sep 2013, 00:47
When they return to Nosgoth through the gate opened by Janos' blood, they are supposed to have returned in their original bodies, so they do have bodies over there. Prior to the gate being opened, the only way they could come back into Nosgoth was by sending their souls through to possess other beings, or dead corpses.

Actually I was about to agree you could interpret the lines that way, Reidbynature, but then this official answer would suggest that the Hylden did age prior to banishment:


Q: Why were the Hylden exempt from the wheel? The Seer and the Builder in Blood Omen 2 both appeared to have immortality. If so, is this what made them a threat to the Elder before being banished?
A: Most of the history of the Hylden has not been revealed yet, but it will be eventually.

The Seer is "an extremely powerful and mysterious Hylden." More of her story may appear in a future game. She *appears* to have escaped the binding.

The Builder was exempted from aging because he was in the Eternal Prison - where the condemned could be punished for all time.

So, otherwise, if he would have aged, then he and his race are not immortal.

Reidbynature
30th Sep 2013, 01:07
Yeah. It seems the context of the use of aging in that answer does lean towards not immortal rather than immortal as a whole.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 01:09
I always thought that the war between Vampires and Hylden was started because the Hylden were trying to find a way to become immortal, and that didn't sit right with the Elder God, or something. Maybe my interpretation isn't really founded on anything, I just always thought the were probably doing something that majorly ticked off the EG, since the Ancients always seemed pretty religious minded.

The_Hylden
30th Sep 2013, 02:39
They refused to submit to the Ancient's god, as Raziel puts it. Refused to believe and worhsip it seems to be how that's supposed to be taken.

They were doing some funky things upon their return, like growing little pods of themselves, or cloning themselves, perhaps. So, maybe they had been looking into ways to cheat death like cloning and such that also peeved off the righteous Ancients, who would perceive that as spoiling the natural process of spiritual renewal through the Wheel of Fate.

Swagraven
30th Sep 2013, 03:41
They were, as far as I can interpret, more inclined to creating technology than the Vampires had been, and the Vampires were more prone to relying on magic. Possibly the very fact that they didn't use magic in the same way was seen as an abomination, who knows. I don't think they were immortal, but they could have developed medicines and technologies that extended their lives, which might have also been an affront to the Vampires.
I hope the Hylden/Ancients conflict gets explained in depth one day. I find it interesting.

Wraithblade6
30th Sep 2013, 06:10
Agreed.

spawnisrob
2nd Oct 2013, 07:27
i thought that the vampires evolved by going into hibernation at a sacred site. and the fact that raziel himself was the first to have wings(fulfilling ancient bla bla bla) his family was and i quote "wiped from the world like excrement from a boot ."thus stopping his kids evolution (or baring them from sacred evolutionary chamber at least) ie i am saying that the other clans continued to evolve(or more accurately de-evolve) while the razielum couldn't, shouldn't they look like raziel did when he was cast into the abyss? second thought shouldn't Dhuma's kids be the solder class seeing as he turns into a suit of armor?

what i thought (sr1 cannon) was that kain will get a gift first then it appears in his kids when they get to that age or is triggered in the evolution chamber. but with raziel the vampire virus altered him and later his brouthers(raziel first because of him being first born or first risen) personally and his kids borne or made have there parents mutated genes and thus-ly Dhumas kids where roid-ed up melchia's kids couldn't maintain caporial form ect

Swagraven
2nd Oct 2013, 08:14
http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7181

This is a thread about just that.

88chaz88
2nd Oct 2013, 08:31
i thought that the vampires evolved by going into hibernation at a sacred site. and the fact that raziel himself was the first to have wings(fulfilling ancient bla bla bla) his family was and i quote "wiped from the world like excrement from a boot ."thus stopping his kids evolution (or baring them from sacred evolutionary chamber at least) ie i am saying that the other clans continued to evolve(or more accurately de-evolve) while the razielum couldn't, shouldn't they look like raziel did when he was cast into the abyss? second thought shouldn't Dhuma's kids be the solder class seeing as he turns into a suit of armor?

I think you're getting rather confused about a few things.

1. Vampires go into hibernation but as far as I'm aware there's no need for any sacred site.

2. While Raziel would have obviously been the first to evolve wings, it doesn't necessarily mean that his clan won't if he dies.

3. Though we know the clan gets wiped out eventually it wasn't necessarily right after Raziel was thrown into the abyss.

4. The extra devolved look of the Razielim in Nosgoth could be due to many things. Perhaps without the progenitor they devolved faster... We don't know but I reckon this would get explained. Also, the vampires don't always look like their sire. The Melchiahim don't look anything like Melchiah pre or post devolution, and all the lieutenants got way bigger and meaner looking without any sign that the clans were following.

5. The Dumahim are soldiers in Nosgoth. They may be smaller than the Turelim but they were in Soul Reaver also.

6. Dumah being a suit of armour? I think you're getting him confused with Malek who was never a vampire.

Also as Swagraven pointed out, there's a thread on this.

Vampmaster
2nd Oct 2013, 08:53
There was talk at one point about how Dumah's armor had melded with his flesh. I think that's what spawnisrob was meaning, but it was a long time ago, so I can't remember where that was said.

Swagraven
2nd Oct 2013, 09:05
There was talk at one point about how Dumah's armor had melded with his flesh. I think that's what spawnisrob was meaning, but it was a long time ago, so I can't remember where that was said.

I've never heard this before. If you remember, let us know, 'cause I'd be interested to read up on it.

soulrelic616
2nd Oct 2013, 09:12
There was talk at one point about how Dumah's armor had melded with his flesh. I think that's what spawnisrob was meaning, but it was a long time ago, so I can't remember where that was said.

I don't think Dumah's armour melded with his flesh, the BBI figure's (which is pretty canon) details clearly show the armour straps to Dumah's body, you can even remove his helmet, also he has facial tattoos, which is quite neat if the devs toon inspiration from it for the Dumahim in Nosgoth.

I can post detailed pics of the figure later this evening.

Cheers,
Ber

Vampmaster
2nd Oct 2013, 09:23
Well, it wasn't really a virus. Either the dialogue or the manual said something about Kain donating a portion of his soul to each of the Lieutenants and that in turn passes on Nupraptor's corruption on to them. I can't remember the specific lines, but I do remember this part:

"The gift continued to evolve. Kain would enter the state of change first and emerge with a new gift. After the master, our evolution would follow."

RainaAudron
2nd Oct 2013, 09:46
Detailed pics would be cool, Ber :) thanks!

Vampmaster
2nd Oct 2013, 09:46
I don't think Dumah's armour melded with his flesh, the BBI figure's (which is pretty canon) details clearly show the armour straps to Dumah's body, you can even remove his helmet, also he has facial tattoos, which is quite neat if the devs toon inspiration from it for the Dumahim in Nosgoth.

They did. Ben posted a comment on that in his article:
http://www.thelostworlds.net/Nosgoth/Nosgoth_Community_Day.html


Cheers,
Ber

Oh, hey! I didn't know it was you.

soulrelic616
2nd Oct 2013, 09:54
Oh, hey! I didn't know it was you.

Hey! Yep it me, apparently my old nickname is too short for this forum, so looking forward to the migration :)

The_Hylden
2nd Oct 2013, 12:51
Merged these threads together.

spawnisrob, first off welcome aboard. Please use the edit button and do not double post.

As for Dumah, the Lost Worlds also has a bunch of pics of his figure. Just like him, the Dumahim have devolved with greenish scaly skin for one class, more grayish green, or brown for the other, but they all look very much like he does under the mask with large, serpent-like fangs and tough, scaly skin, or hide. He does have bluish marks on his face in areas under his eyes and around his mouth, but perhaps that's even like the marking patches on a lizard, and he has thick, green dreadlock-like "hair," which is very reminiscent of Predator.

Edit, I might as well just add the pic:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/pgson/Action_Figures-Retail-Figure-BBI_Dumah-Boxed-Eyes_zps26b0bc02.jpg

Also, as for the fate of the Razielim, the only official line from Amy Hennig ever was that "this is currently unrevealed," meaning they probably were persecuted, but a few also probably did survive even in the time when Raziel revisits his clan territory.

spawnisrob
2nd Oct 2013, 21:54
i was saying that you revive dumas husk so you can kill himin sr1. i concede the point armor and husk are different but my point is still valid he(duma) was a solder or the brute of his bros his kids should folow that logic. my thoughts on the razielum should be the Sam fisher of the clans

i was using virology to explain the different mutations the clans went threw not necessarily meaning it was a virus (i figured we all had some knowledge of resident evil virology)

The_Hylden
3rd Oct 2013, 05:01
Once again, spawnisrob, please use the Edit Post button, left of the Reply button instead of double posting.

Thanks.

spawnisrob
3rd Oct 2013, 07:46
i was answering two separate points i thought that clicking under the specific question it would appear under what i was answering . anyway you don't have to worry about me anymore i can tell you are to locked into your idea to hear any of the points im trying to raise this creative team is doing thear own game and using the lok name to get attention

The_Hylden
3rd Oct 2013, 14:03
Thing is, just clicking to reply under a specific post does not alert that person that you're addressing their post. They have no way of knowing you meant to answer them over anyone else in the thread.

If you're answering two separate people's points, or even two points of the same person, you can use the other buttons next to edit and reply. Reply with Quote will reply to one post and have it quoted in yours. The button next to that with two speech bubbles is the Multi Quote button and you can click that under each post in multiple posts that you wish to reply to. After you've selected all of the posts you wish to quote from, then hit Reply with Quote under any of them and all of them with be listed in your posts. You can type your answers after the closed quote tags in each. This is the easy way to address multiple things without having to make more than one posts.

My asking of you to follow the rules is not me asking you to be silent. I don't know why you interpreted it as such. You're free to respond with any opinion you have, as long as it's civil, of course.

Reidbynature
3rd Oct 2013, 20:56
Hmm. I wouldn't mind seeing the Dumahim's skin and face paint be more in keeping with the Dumah figure picture posted by Hylden. That and buffing them up slightly and giving them better muscle tone would be good. Though keep the armour they have since that's fine and fits perfectly in my view.