PDA

View Full Version : free will



DemonicDC
18th Apr 2006, 20:29
hehe, starting more topics here. :)

I have been thinking, on what a basis has raziel free will. Cause, from one look, he has noone. (ok, breathe.. cool down, read on)

You see, all actions anyone does makes him react. Actions others do are always the same. raziel will probably always react on situations the same aswell. (hey, I get attacked, kill attacker). He would not think, lets sit down and get tea.

So his free will is limited to reacting to what others do, or really hacing a choice when he is free of any outside influence. But thats just it, he hardly is free of outside influance.

If kain states X points, he would think something of it. But on that time, previous experience always makes him think exactly the same int hat instant, forcing him into one choice.

When he had to chose in defiance to end it (trying not to spoil stuff here) he had a "choice" stay near the elder god in a timeless zone. Material realm would not notice a chance. If he did not stay, he would materialise on the exact time as he would after 300 years. Time after all, seizes to pass in spectral. So his material action would never be a choice, only a logical outcome.

Spectrally he had a choice, which mattered nothing if he did it 300 years later.

So, what do we think.. does he truly have a choice, or is he free willingly chosing what he would always chose, cause influences would make him want to do that anywayz.

CrossHQ
18th Apr 2006, 21:42
Well, If he "doesn't have free will" than the only good thing about it is that Moebius can't see his future. Just wanted to post this out, i'm a little confused right about now:confused: :p

demon_overdrive
19th Apr 2006, 05:57
Well, If he "doesn't have free will" than the only good thing about it is that Moebius can't see his future. Just wanted to post this out, i'm a little confused right about now:confused: :p


No No No !:eek:
it's like as raziel possess his so called "free will",
Mobeius can't see his future or nobody for that matter can see his
future 'cause his future is not certain or pre determined and so cannot be viewed in timeline 'cause he possessing his free will can change the future which again depends on what choices
he makes and is therefore in making.:)

dumah's wraith
19th Apr 2006, 21:10
No No No !:eek:
it's like if raziel possess his so called "free will",
Mobeius can't see his future or nobody for that matter can see his
future 'cause the free will stands for the one whose future
is not certain or fixed and so cannot be viewed in timeline 'cause
the one possessing the free will can change his future
which is yet to be made which again depends on what choices
he makes and is not pre determined.:)
????????

DemonicDC
19th Apr 2006, 23:11
Ppl aparently do not get the point of the topic. Some valid options/things were said but thats not the point.

Lets try to blunt it down.

Where is the free will, if you react on non-free-will actions of others. Because of opinion and experience raziels free will, will probably always chose the same action cause thats who raziel is.

Another example:
in SR2 raziel gets cornered and picks up the bloodreaver. Now since there is no distortion he always picked it up. Exactly the point. He had the option not to pick it up, he did, he always did. Where is free will if he gets led into all those actions.

Might even go as far as to think that he always has this.
In the cathedral near william he does feel a distortion when he does not kill Kain. Seems like free will? But in that dimention he always made that choice, he always spared kain. Time always reshuffled. Ok, the second part is a bit farfetched, but point is that MOST of raziels actions are not free will, but led

garbagefanuk
19th Apr 2006, 23:21
Odd reference for Raziels proof or disproof of freewill there Demonic.

Raziel picked up the Reaver at that point because that was his destiny. He had no freewill at that point. Kain say's it best. Freewill is an illusion. A free Raziel is let loose on the timestream after Kain saves him from the Reaver in the Stronghold of the Sarafan at the end of Soul Reaver 2.

The thing you need to remember about Raziel and his ability to choose is he doesn't know. The Timestream adapts to Kain's pulling of the Reaver from Raziel. He was always meant to be absorbed into it and when Kain changed that the Timestream had to change to find another path to him being absorbed into it. That's done by Mobius tricking Raziel into trail blazing his way into Voradors keep and his final Descision at the Spirit Shrine. He chose every action. To fight Kain for Janos's heart but it doesn't mean every one of his choices weren't engineered by Mobius and thus the Timestream.

DemonicDC
20th Apr 2006, 10:01
exactly.. my point exact. (well, the main point. the 2nd I already said is probably silly)

They all say he has free will (and he does, or else time would not change) but if there is no distortion he did what he was detined to do, which he always did, and thereby its not a choice.

garbagefanuk
20th Apr 2006, 20:47
No the thing is he chose to face his destiny and be absorbed into the Reaver. It may have been his destiny to do it but he had a choice to walk away from it. He could keep avoiding it indeffinatly. He chose to do what he did. That wasn't predetermined. Which means he does have free will. Maybe not on a level you'd like to see but it's just a pulling of forces. Destiny over choice. t's a matter of who pulls hardest.

DemonicDC
20th Apr 2006, 21:21
yes, he has free will. Won't ever deny that. I just think, what do you all think about the following...

If comments and experiences from others make raziel make his choices, does that mean it actually was free will. he made his choice upon those actions, but those actions are made by ppl who do not have free will and thereby shall always happen.

dumah's wraith
20th Apr 2006, 21:42
The distortion doesn't happen for minor changes, only when the timestream has to struggle to adapt.

DemonicDC
21st Apr 2006, 22:02
true true. But I don't think you ppl get what I mean. I am never stating he does not have free will, only should we call it like that. ButI guess its a thing I just can't seem to explain again. Ah well

TheWatcher
22nd Apr 2006, 04:06
I think I understand what you mean DC. Kain gave Raziel 'free will' by pulling the reaver from him when he was originally to be absorbed, but the timestream (and the story) dictated that it still had to happen at some point. In a way, no he didn't have free will because of that. I suppose the extent of his free will was making the individual decisions that decided how and where it happened.

Everyone except Kain realized that he had only delayed the inevitable (and Moe eventually made him realize it anyway). "Your manipulations are pathetic".

demon_overdrive
22nd Apr 2006, 09:17
I think I understand what you mean DC. Kain gave Raziel 'free will' by pulling the reaver from him when he was originally to be absorbed, but the timestream (and the story) dictated that it still had to happen at some point. In a way, no he didn't have free will because of that. I suppose the extent of his free will was making the individual decisions that decided how and where it happened.

Everyone except Kain realized that he had only delayed the inevitable (and Moe eventually made him realize it anyway). "Your manipulations are pathetic".

Well my friend watcher, u'r sort of wrong at this point(won't say directly 'cause people take it the wrong way. Had only a single experience, but still) when you say that Raziel aquired his free will at the time when Kain helped him out from being sucked into the reaver blade at the end of SR2 (Man you gotta be kidding):eek: Don't you think Raziel had his free will from the very beginning from when he chased Kain throughout the SR1 to all the later installments in the series including Defiance? Well believe me he did.

Well here's quite a detailed explanation in this support -but before i start let me make this thing very clear that there are two types of destinies, futures.
The one 'which has already been foretold or written in the timeline' and the other 'which is yet to be written'. Now, anybody for that matter can change their default destiny or future to make a new one provided they have the knowledge of their fate approaching i.e., they should have the knowledge or vision of their default futures that are already written (and glued on :D ) in the timeline. Kain and Mobeius are the one who have already seen the future(the default future) in the timeline and better know what's going to come next so can't they change their approaching fates. The answer is no. They won't dare try to do so at once 'cause both of them are aware of the fact that if they did something like that, a paradox will be created ('cause they too are bound by the rules of timeline) thus creating a distortion in the timeline which the timeline would try to fix out to make the things right once again thus giving rise to some bad a$$ events greatly effecting the future of each and every being in Nosgoth.

Well not only u but a lot of people think that as kain said in the starting FMV of SR2 something like "free will is an illusion Raziel. Everyone of us has a future which has already been foretold in the timeline". Now kain said this as he was unaware of the fact that Raziel did possessed a free will. Well he was quite right on this part on the basis of what he had seen in the timeline(i.e., the same events repeating again and again as the history repeats itself from the very beginning of the story to the end when he's bound to die at the hands of Raziel). But u remember it's the 'default future' i mentioned above. But again he isn't able to view the events which are out of the grip or binding chains of the timeline so for that matter & that sort of vision he's absolutely right until he later come's to know that Raziel truely possesses a free will when he refuses to kill Kain and actually do so at that particular fatal moment when kain was destined to die. we'll talk about it later on in detail.

But now the question arises how can he make use of his free will if he doesn't even have the slightest idea about the future unlike Kain does and would rather go on the path that's already fixed by the timeline. Well now kain plays his part in this. As he already knows how the story goes , he most probably won't speak exactly the same way or for that matter the same words( as none of you would do if you already know what's going to come next) as he did in the earlier episodes (i.e.,the things he has to say at that particular moment when the history repeats itself and comes to the exact same point where he currently is)and as he knows what's going to happen at the end he is no more concerned about his fate excepting it and therefore knows that Raziel won't kill him until the fatal moment arrives later on and rather indulges with him in conversation from time to time instead ( eg. when he meets Raziel at the pillars in SR2)of fighting ( note that at this point also Kain does not know anything about the free will that raziel possess)which eventually changes the thinking procedure of Raziel that helps him put some time to figure out what's the truth rather than chasing Kain again ( note that 'cause he possess free will, his actions does change the future without creating a paradox)which eventually shows how he changes the events of the future for the very first time using his free will while he dosen't kill kain when he was supposed to die by his hands.

(note that kain knew the future upto this point only and no furthur as at this very fatal moment he always ended up dead except this time as an exception which he never thought was ever going to happen.)

Yes , it's true that the reaver was forged at the place where
Raziel was about to get absorbed in the reaver but kain never knew that and thereby ended up giving invitation to the paradox after helping Raziel out of that situation due to which distortion occured in the timeline (as u people already know that "History Abhors a Paradox" :))as the timeline wouldn't stand any changes done in the order of past and future which were already fixed and therefore to set the things right it gave rise to a new event (calling all the vampire cousins for hell of a party :D lol) opening gate to the demon dimension (welcoming the hyldens for a meeting :D lol ) through which the Hyldens once again appeared to evade the Nosgoth.

Had he not helped raziel out of that situation, he would have ended up getting his hands on the biggest daddy of all swords, the 'Soul Reaver' while we would have most probably ended up getting an end to the LoK series.:D lol

DemonicDC
22nd Apr 2006, 12:13
Watcher is actually starting to see what I mean. Don't get me wrong overdrive, what you say also goes in my point.

lets make another silly example. perhaps this totally explains what I mean.

* Kain and raz are buddies, and kain is celebrating his 2000th birtday. (for the ones nagging bout raz in sword, etc.. its a silly example, so naaaah)
* Kain likes vases cause I just desided he adores flowers.
* kains favorite color is red and he hates green

No raz wants to give Kain a present he really likes cause there buddies and stuff. So he goes to the store, sees 2 vases, a green and a red one. Now he has free will, and can thereby for real pick any of the 2 to give to kain. But he as a buddy wants to do it right, this means getting the red one since kain hates green. And thats the whole point. Where is free will if experiences, knowledge, opinion and influence always drive raziel to make the same choice (aka pick the red vase)

garbagefanuk
22nd Apr 2006, 14:02
yes, he has free will. Won't ever deny that. I just think, what do you all think about the following...

If comments and experiences from others make raziel make his choices, does that mean it actually was free will. he made his choice upon those actions, but those actions are made by ppl who do not have free will and thereby shall always happen.

Well if he decides to not act on their promptings then its not destiny. It's destined for them to try but not for him to do. Raziel himself questions this on Defiance when facing Kain in Avernus. Something about the limit of his free will being as far as Kain wants him to go. Kain should have died in the chapel of William but when Raziel changed then got absorbed that means Kain was free as well. Which means Kain's promptings were his choice as much as it was Raziels choice to fight. It's still free will but it's really a personal descision on how much they have. I can't say they have none cos other people have none. I can say other people have none bt they can choose whether to follow the other people

demon_overdrive
22nd Apr 2006, 17:23
Well that's ok Demonic, 'cause i know that everybody can't have the same thinking for that matter but again one should have a logical proof for it.;)

dumah's wraith
22nd Apr 2006, 19:06
I was wondering...If, at the start of sr1, Raz decided to toss a coin as to whether hunt Kain or go enjoy himself terrorizing vampires/humans or comb his hair or something, would history or free will influence that coin?

Of course then the question arises of where the hell did he get a coin, but ignore that.

DemonicDC
22nd Apr 2006, 22:01
kinda a sideway to the point I am trying to get across. And for the ones who stll don't get it but are not telling me. I am NOT saying raziel has no free will, he sure hell has. I am just saying does it matter. :P

demon_overdrive
23rd Apr 2006, 09:44
Alright Demonic, i finally scrolled down through your earlier posts on this topic and what i got is you wanna say that "how does it really matter whether Raziel has his free will or not if other's don't possess it and as there fate is already bound to the timeline, they may always for eg. behave and talk or interact with Raziel at each and every moment the same way as they always have done as the history repeats itself and therefore trigger the same events making Raziel to always react to these situations the same way as he always did.

Isn't it what you want to say? i hope this is it.

dumah's wraith
23rd Apr 2006, 17:53
The 'annoying interjection alert' meant it was off topic. And I understand what you mean, I think. Raziel will respond the same way to outside influences which are fixed, so he will usually obey the wheel.

Umah Bloodomen
24th Apr 2006, 02:08
And in the future, if one plans on hijacking a thread completely, why not press the New Thread button (after searching to see if what is planned for posting hasn't been posted before) instead of replying to a pre-existing thread where the inquiry has no point?

With that said, I trust we can return to our regularly scheduled programming.

Thanks. :)

DemonicDC
24th Apr 2006, 17:23
yes overdrive and wraith.. thats exactly what I mean.

The Reaver Blade
24th Apr 2006, 19:26
Interesting. Kain said at Averness that it was because of Raziels remaking that Raz has free will but wasnt Kain remade as well at the hands of Mortanius? In this case then why hasnt Kain got free will? i'm confused!:confused: Besides, Kain never gave Raziel his free will when he pulled the reaver out of him. He just postponed Raziels destiny. It was because of the incident in Williams chapel that history was truly changed.:)

garbagefanuk
25th Apr 2006, 23:32
Rather easy. Kain's remaking was part of his Destiny. He mentions this as well during his scene in the chapel on Mobius altering his destiny and thereby altering Raziels as well. Through the use of the 2 Reaver's it created a temporal paradox that allowed Kain to kill William the Just and thus changing the future. That wasn't meant to happen but Kain dying was always part of his destiny. What wasn't meant to happen was where Raziel refused to kill Kain in the chapel.

The Reaver Blade
26th Apr 2006, 19:47
But raziel must have been destined to be thrown into the abyss and ressurected as well. Therefore i still dont see why raziel gained free will due to this.:scratch:

DemonicDC
26th Apr 2006, 21:28
The question then arises.. why would the timeline allow the insane obstruction of creating a being with free will to be taken place?

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 02:57
yes overdrive and wraith.. thats exactly what I mean.


Well Demonic, you know you are still missing something :whistle: . Come on man, just scroll down the page and read my earlier post titled 'Here's all u will ever need ' where you will get the answer to "how the hell can Raziel make use of his free will if he doesn't even have the slightest idea about the future unlike Kain does and would rather go on the path that's already fixed by the timeline". Man i guess you haven't read that post and probably skipped that portion for it's quite long & boring. If you've got any doubts :scratch: or are uncomfortable with that theory :nut: , let me know and i'll try to explain it in a better way.:D

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 03:43
But raziel must have been destined to be thrown into the abyss and ressurected as well. Therefore i still dont see why raziel gained free will due to this.:scratch:


The question then arises.. why would the timeline allow the insane obstruction of creating a being with free will to be taken place?

you'r quite right on this but how the hell is timeline going to do something about it :mad2: if it's beyond it's reach as you see :scratch: Raziel was reborn in the spectral world wherein time does not exist or does not flow. First of all that's the reason why Raziel got unbound or free from the grip of timeline and the fact he has got the ability to shift to the material realm unlike any other creature (makes him a creature whose rules of free will applies on the material world too) makes him the only creature with whome even the timeline has no problems to deal with inspite of whether he kicks timeline's a$$ from time to time :nut: or whatever he does as per his will ofcourse without creating paradox's :whistle: :D.

And as far as Raziel being thrown away in the abyss thing is concerned, yes it's like that, it was as per the timeline demanded and it's also true for his coming back from abyss all the way to killing Kain at the tomb of WTJ to getting sucked into the reaver after killing his former human self. But his free will was always a part of him from the point of his every rebirth throughout the repititions of the same story again & again(history repeats itself) which made the difference this time (as an exception).

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 08:34
No I did read it, had a bit of a hard time understanding. (it was late so my brain was unwilling to process english I guess.

reread it and I get what you mean. (actually saw a theory which our world uses in there upon time but thats actually cool hehe)
Although I disagree on one point. Kain does not react different cause time won't allow him to act different cause only raziel kan change time. And reacting different is a change in time, however slightest.

If kain knew what he said and thereby reacted to that he always knew that, he always reacted to that and in the scraps of future he saw he probably saw himself react in that way

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 09:48
No I did read it, had a bit of a hard time understanding. (it was late so my brain was unwilling to process english I guess.

reread it and I get what you mean. (actually saw a theory which our world uses in there upon time but thats actually cool hehe)
Although I disagree on one point. Kain does not react different cause time won't allow him to act different cause only raziel kan change time. And reacting different is a change in time, however slightest.

If kain knew what he said and thereby reacted to that he always knew that, he always reacted to that and in the scraps of future he saw he probably saw himself react in that way

Hi there ! i am kind of pleased to see how this trend of arguing between us continues, i like it...keep it up:D

Well i sort of knew that you're not going to agree on this kain part. Basically what i'm saying is for e.g. if suppose you're Raziel (yeah baby :lol:)& i'am kain (cheers on that too:lmao: )alright, now as i've seen the future, all the things keep on revolving inside my god damn mind throughout so what difference would it make if instead of you , i started the conversation so in that case u would be going according to what i'll say next like when you were approaching to the pillars to kill me, i already realised that it's time and u'r coming which is why i started the conversation just like to tell you that i know you're there behind me with out even turning back. Well as i already know you're going to kill me at some point later, i don't give a damn on it and accept what's coming at the same time being unaware of the fact that u really possess free will. So, it really does change a hell lot if i start the conversation but does not effect the timeline for it being a very minor sort of change.Well, think it like this what if in earlier repeatitions or versions of the same story for e.g. near the pillars ended up in a fight between us where you started the conversation coming sneaking behind me and tried to attack me afterwards while i teleported myself to some other place escaping you as i knew my death was not then and you killing me there would have meant a straight paradox as i said i was unaware of the free will you possessed.So, you see in both the cases i wasn't killed by you at the pillars as an example so there was not really any sort of change that would have created a distortion in the timeline thus giving rise to the daddy of all misfortunes the "Paradox".So, this is the only reason you were diverted from the thinking you earlier had which thus resulted in you sparing my life. For my part i didn't knew about what's going to come next as i had never seen anything beyond my death so saving you at the end from getting devoured inside the reaver ended up in a Paradox.

Oh my god:scratch: , damn i ended up with nothing except giving silly examples like you.:mad2: :D

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 19:36
Ah.. lets continue in silly examples. :)

But if you (kain) started the convo and me (raziel) did not..

in the original way I started the convo. In your theory (which I do not support cause I do say not even the smallest thing can be changed except by raziel) you started the convo. Lets asume I expected to start it and got very shocked byt the event. Lets asume further that I got shocked so bad that I did not notice stuff around me and did not notice ariel by that. Starting to get bigger doesn't it. Lets also think I as raziel needed that talk with ariel.

I say even the smallest things can somehow have huge consequences and thereby time takes no chances and simply won't let you change anything. If Kain blinked 3 times with his eyes, he always did 3 times, just cause who knows.. if he did 4, perhaps raz hated him for the 4th and stabbed him right there.

Uhm.. end of silly example. :P

The Reaver Blade
28th Apr 2006, 19:46
Maybe it is because raziel is the redeemer and destroyer that he has free will and that the free will awakened in him when he turned into a devourer of souls. Or its because he has been remade three times. Or maybe its because he is the soul of the soul reaver (which can bend time when another incarnation of the blade draws near).:scratch:

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 20:01
can't really complain with this title, and I know suddenly alot of freewill topics arised (confusing perhaps) but it was not the point of asking why he has free will, more does it matter.

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 20:04
Ah.. lets continue in silly examples. :)

But if you (kain) started the convo and me (raziel) did not..

in the original way I started the convo. In your theory (which I do not support cause I do say not even the smallest thing can be changed except by raziel) you started the convo. Lets asume I expected to start it and got very shocked byt the event. Lets asume further that I got shocked so bad that I did not notice stuff around me and did not notice ariel by that. Starting to get bigger doesn't it. Lets also think I as raziel needed that talk with ariel.

I say even the smallest things can somehow have huge consequences and thereby time takes no chances and simply won't let you change anything. If Kain blinked 3 times with his eyes, he always did 3 times, just cause who knows.. if he did 4, perhaps raz hated him for the 4th and stabbed him right there.

Uhm.. end of silly example. :P

I guess i would need to explain it in a much better way for you to understand:scratch: or else i would have to surrender permanently. :mad2: :nut::D lol. But don't you think i'm going to give up so easily man 'cause on you're every fatal turn you will find me :lmao:)

Binky24
28th Apr 2006, 20:04
which can bend time when another incarnation of the blade draws near
But maybe the Reaver can bend time because two free-willed creatures meet at the same time/place? Raziel is the cause, and not the effect, of the blade's abilities?
Going in circles... :mad2:

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 20:13
perhaps its just me. (I do understand most english I read but perhaps I misunderstand some things and I will never know. The english I mean, not the meaning of what you want to say)

I would indeed say, refrase and try again. Simplify or use expensive words, does not matter, just refrase?

I agree, don't give up. :)

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 20:23
which can bend time when another incarnation of the blade draws near
But maybe the Reaver can bend time because two free-willed creatures meet at the same time/place? Raziel is the cause, and not the effect, of the blade's abilities?
Going in circles... :mad2:

Or it can be better said as due to the fact the two identical souls trapped in the reaver meet eachother,time and space can be bent as the distortion occurs and till here it's quite true, man am i confused:scratch: ...but the second one, i simply don't get it.:whistle:

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 20:31
basicly I think he states in his second point exactly what he did in his first point but then that its caused by the souls of 2 free will beings

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 20:33
perhaps its just me. (I do understand most english I read but perhaps I misunderstand some things and I will never know. The english I mean, not the meaning of what you want to say)

I would indeed say, refrase and try again. Simplify or use expensive words, does not matter, just refrase?

I agree, don't give up. :)

Now that's you...won't give up, never in hell of a time.:mad2::D

fuzbaler-
28th Apr 2006, 22:58
raz had complete free will until SL2 when he spered kain in william"s tomb, he has written his own imprisonment. he still had free will, except one thing, entering the sword..kain at the end of defiance gets free will...and about raz getting free will it was all explaned, raz was reborn and so he cheated the wheal of fate and thus he wasnt binded.

sorry about my english:D

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 23:11
raz always had and always will have the same amount of free will. He always got sucked in the sword.

DemonicDC
29th Apr 2006, 10:51
Lol. you ment me? :D

But its true, raz always had free will, and always will have (as reaver of souls that is)

You can't have partial free will, you have or do not have

DemonicDC
30th Apr 2006, 10:57
:P then be more specific damnit.

demon_overdrive
30th Apr 2006, 12:27
Alright....:whistle:

garbagefanuk
30th Apr 2006, 23:38
He was and he didn't. He gained the free will when Kain pulled the Reaver from him at the end of Soul Reaver 2. Raziel was meant to enter the blade, transforming it to the Soul Reaver. But Kain saved him and on Defiance Kain holds the Blood Reaver.