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RuumTaedor
13th Apr 2006, 04:53
I had an inspiration. While I like Legend, any criticisms I may have are born out of changes that do not seem to come from the classic Tomb Raider ideals, not because I think Legend is a crappy game. Allow me to illustrate with a few analogies (I think you'll be amused).

Let's say I give you a Jaguar (the car). How do you know it's a Jaguar? It has the Jaguar crest, Jaguar tires and rims, Jaguar engine, Jaguar quality, and it performs well. You are very pleased with me.

Now let's say I give you a new Jaguar EXCEPT it has a rebuilt-from-the-ground-up high-performance Corvette Dynamics engine (every other car manufacturer is using the new high-performance Corvette Dynamics style engine in this ficticious scenario). Are you still pleased with me? You might say "it's not a real Jaguar because it runs differently, it doesn't have the classic growl". On the other hand, you might say "so what if it has a Corvette Dynamics logo under the hood, this vehicle has better performance than the old one and still gets you from point A to point B" (but perhaps runs out of gas sooner). It depends on you.

Now let's say I give you another new Jaguar EXCEPT it has high-performance Corvette Dynamics tires and rims (every other car manufacturer is using them). Are you still pleased with me? You might say "it's not a real Jaguar because it handles differently". On the other hand, you might say "so what if it has Corvette Dynamics logos on the wheels, this vehicle handles better and still smokes the tires off the line" (but perhaps the tread life leaves a little to be desired). It depends on you.

How many things have to change before you would decide "With that last change, this car is now a piece of crap". How many things have to change before you would say "OK, it's a nice car, but it's no longer a Jaguar". I feel Legend has a couple of significant Tomb Raider departures, that being the controls and simple puzzles and to a degree linear gameplay. Legend is a fantastic game, but is it still Tomb Raider? It depends on you. It doesn't mean someone is right and someone else is wrong.

The moral of the story? I really like Jaguars (and cars in general).

That was a fun comparison.

Your Tomb Raiding Companion

Ruum Taedor

Faye
13th Apr 2006, 15:19
A very interesting (and clever!) analogy there. Still, I don't know if Crystal Dynamics will run too far away from what we know as "Tomb Raider". I trust them with our Lara :D. Whilst it's different, I don't mind, I see it as more of an evolution. I don't worry about the controls at all (after all, the Gameboy games had COMPLETELY different controls, and they still felt like Tomb Raider to me). I don't think that Tomb Raider will ever become unrecognisable.

However, it is up to us make sure Crystal Dynamics stay reminded of the fact that we love TOMB RAIDER, not whatever is hot right now it terms of gameplay and fancy graphics.. As you have done here. :)

gthsii
13th Apr 2006, 18:28
Your analogy is quite funny. Considering you chose a GM brand to mix with the Jaguar, the truth is Ford owns Jaguar. So a Jag today is really not a Jag, but a Ford, in which case I want nothing to do with it. You could give me one, but I'd sell it and buy an older Jaguar - one from the pre-Ford days. In fact the new X-type is basically a supped up Fusion.

RuumTaedor
13th Apr 2006, 20:58
A very interesting (and clever!) analogy there. Still, I don't know if Crystal Dynamics will run too far away from what we know as "Tomb Raider". I trust them with our Lara :D. Whilst it's different, I don't mind, I see it as more of an evolution. I don't worry about the controls at all (after all, the Gameboy games had COMPLETELY different controls, and they still felt like Tomb Raider to me). I don't think that Tomb Raider will ever become unrecognisable.

However, it is up to us make sure Crystal Dynamics stay reminded of the fact that we love TOMB RAIDER, not whatever is hot right now it terms of gameplay and fancy graphics.. As you have done here. :)
Thanks for that Faye. Hopefully CD will keep Tomb Raider as Tomb Raider. It will be interesting to see how the next installment will be designed.

RuumTaedor
13th Apr 2006, 22:52
Your analogy is quite funny. Considering you chose a GM brand to mix with the Jaguar, the truth is Ford owns Jaguar. So a Jag today is really not a Jag, but a Ford, in which case I want nothing to do with it. You could give me one, but I'd sell it and buy an older Jaguar - one from the pre-Ford days. In fact the new X-type is basically a supped up Fusion.
Hi gthsii. Glad you enjoyed it. I chose Jaguar to represent a British make. I chose Corvette to represent an opposite ("a world apart") and so I could say "Corvette Dynamics under the hood" ie "CD under the hood".

gthsii
13th Apr 2006, 23:55
;-)

RuumTaedor
21st Apr 2006, 00:08
Time to take the Jag out for another spin.

Richard_Croft
21st Apr 2006, 01:06
In 50 yrs time how do you guys think TR wud have turned out? You think they will scrap the whole thing? Or will it have grown even further? How do you think the story will be? I think it will be about Lara's daughter! :D

That would be very interesting to see and Lara is still alive but as an old granny in a wheel chair giving advice 2 her beloved daughter? Maybe it won't be her real daughter but an adopted girl who she raises and trains? Wow I can't wait for 50 yrs time! :D

RuumTaedor
6th Oct 2006, 02:21
What the heck, I feel like resurrecting the Jag again.

Terminatorvs
6th Oct 2006, 04:50
Nice comparrison.
I think, that "TR" will remain "TR" as long as we have Lara in it. Plus. The game needs NEEDS to have new additions, just like the Jaguar. After all, you can't have the same old "Tomb Raider" for ten years. Do you know, why the majority of people, living in Russia prefer buying Japanese, German, American cars? That is because foreign cars have newer gadgets installed, they're made with comfort for you to enjoy the ride. Unlike the cars in Russia. (Forgive me, "Oka".) The same thing with the game - new moves, new controls, new gadgets - and the game is more fun to play.

Headache
6th Oct 2006, 22:32
:lol:
How clever of you :thumbsup:


...NOW WHERE'S MY JAGUAR?!

RuumTaedor
6th Oct 2006, 23:41
I'm glad you liked the comparison, Terminatorvs.

Yes, Tomb Raider does need new things, but (forgive me, I love to complicate things) what new things do you add? Here's a new thing for Jaguar...gthsii mentioned that Ford owns Jaguar, a significant change I'd say. Gthsii said he would never own, shall we say, a "Ford Jaguar". Gthsii is of the opinion that the Ford Jaguar is no longer a true Jaguar. Would you then conclude that gthsii does not like change, that he wants to impeed progress and stick to the old ways? I'm sure we could find someone who would think that the Ford Jaguar is still an acceptable Jaguar. What then, does that mean one of them is wrong?

In my opinion, some new things to add to Tomb Raider might be new missions, new locations, new tools, new moves, new puzzles, new characters, new graphics engine. As you know, I personally wouldn't have changed the controls, and I suspect Eidos had not actually planned to change the controls, but when they went to CD, CD probably said they could provide the next Tomb Raider with greatly improved graphics by using the LoK engine, a side-effect being the LoK controls. Just speculation, though.

On a side note, I hope to visit Russia one day.

RuumTaedor
6th Oct 2006, 23:48
How clever of you :thumbsup:
Thanks.

...NOW WHERE'S MY JAGUAR?!
Nice try, Headache. I did say "Let's say (theoretically-speaking-with-no-gift-given-nor-implied) I give you a Jaguar". ;)

Headache
7th Oct 2006, 01:28
Nice try, Headache. I did say "Let's say (theoretically-speaking-with-no-gift-given-nor-implied) I give you a Jaguar". ;)
:mad2:
Der me.

...The possibility of you being generous is still there though. :D

ditom
7th Oct 2006, 20:51
I think that Jaguar should be in next Tomb Raider;)

StarChampagne
8th Oct 2006, 13:59
...NOW WHERE'S MY JAGUAR?!

I know where mine is - I shot it in Bolivia :whistle: :o :)

Good analogy :D Very interesting and thought-provoking.

So long as they slap a 'Tomb Raider' on the box, I suppose it still technically is Tomb Raider. Although Tomb Raider might mean something different to everyone, so if you removed Lara's guns, it might cease to be TR to someone. Or something like that. It's interesting to think, what really makes a thing a thing? :D

RuumTaedor
9th Oct 2006, 04:23
...The possibility of you being generous is still there though. :D
You just don't give up, do you? (Good for you.)

Actually, I do consider myself a generous person. I have already given you my time, my public profile, my thread, my opinion, my wit, and as an extra bonus, a klutzily (un)delivered peck on the cheek, what more do you want? :rolleyes:

Now that I think about it, there is one thing you have given me (that is, us in this forum) that I have yet to reciprocate, but I'm working on it. ;) It seems you are more comfortable on forums than I am.

Headache
9th Oct 2006, 04:44
You just don't give up, do you? (Good for you.)

Actually, I do consider myself a generous person. I have already given you my time, my public profile, my thread, my opinion, my wit, and as an extra bonus, a klutzily (un)delivered peck on the cheek, what more do you want? :rolleyes:

Now that I think about it, there is one thing you have given me (that is, us in this forum) that I have yet to reciprocate, but I'm working on it. ;) It seems you are more comfortable on forums than I am.
WOOT FOR ME!!!

Terminatorvs
10th Oct 2006, 04:35
In my opinion, "TR" will remain "TR", unless the developers change something, that must be remained untouched. Something, that will make it not a "TR". Imagine, that the do make a "TR" game, but if you remove Lara, change the story a bit, and in the end get a completely different game, then the game the developers made is not a "TR". Example. Do you think it would be possible to replace Lara from "AoD" with another character (not an archeologist, let's say, but a journalist), change Von Croy's name to something different. Would we get a different game. I think so - "AoD" doesn't have enough "TR" benchmarks to cling to the "TR" title. Unlike "Legend". That is only my humble opinion.

Headache
10th Oct 2006, 22:52
In my opinion, "TR" will remain "TR", unless the developers change something, that must be remained untouched. Something, that will make it not a "TR". Imagine, that the do make a "TR" game, but if you remove Lara, change the story a bit, and in the end get a completely different game, then the game the developers made is not a "TR". Example. Do you think it would be possible to replace Lara from "AoD" with another character (not an archeologist, let's say, but a journalist), change Von Croy's name to something different. Would we get a different game. I think so - "AoD" doesn't have enough "TR" benchmarks to cling to the "TR" title. Unlike "Legend". That is only my humble opinion.
Exactly.

RuumTaedor
28th Jan 2007, 22:23
In a few short months, all the buzz will be about Anniversary not Legend, so now is as good a time as any to bump my thread again, and there are some new faces since the last time. Check out my Legend Demo Review thread, too.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=58144

rabid metro
30th Jan 2007, 03:04
(engaging analogies deleted :) ) ...
How many things have to change before you would decide "With that last change, this car is now a piece of crap".
How many things have to change before you would say "OK, it's a nice car, but it's no longer a Jaguar".
...

... suppose the manufacturer of the jaguar was compelled to make changes to the jaguar, to appease a market that was seemingly, increasingly dissatisfied with the look and feel of the previous model. with slumping sales in hand, and the possibility that the next model could be the last, the manufacturer, in desperation, convinces the original designer to have a go at redesign and resurrecting sales and so on ... and it works!

and so the manufacturer says here's your jaguar. and yes, its not a classic old-school jaguar, in the sense that it now uses corvette dynamics parts (a necessary evil in the eyes of some and timely medicine in the eyes of others), but we need your support. our jaguar will live in the free market (and not in a vacuum) and it will evolve as long as it lives... (sigh) ... since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, each new model will present the conundrum: which model is the core, prototypical jaguar?



That was a fun comparison.


agreed!!! it got my motor running ... :thumbsup:

i would love to drive these jaguars for a long time.
each model should be different and yet leave open the possibility that many more models can come.
who knows, perhaps one of these will be the "ultimate" jaguar ...

anyone care to address which racing gloves are best for handling a jaguar?
will someone strive to impress us with how much they've invested in racing goggles??
if they don't make a jaguar in exactly your color, will you no longer consider buying one???
(unless, of course, the test drive convinces you otherwise) :rolleyes:

They say that in Tomb Raiding circles there's always ruum for improvement! ;)

RuumTaedor
30th Jan 2007, 19:23
agreed!!! it got my motor running ... :thumbsup:

Hey Mr. Metro, I'm glad you liked it.


They say that in Tomb Raiding circles there's always ruum for improvement! ;)

Clever. Now why didn't I think of saying that?