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Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 12:47
http://www.core-design.com/coreforum/showthread.php?p=718#post718

My disappointment about TRL being huge, I invite everyone who feels the same to join me in my quest.

RuumTaedor
12th Apr 2006, 13:46
Hi Lone Raider.

I presume you mean you have a huge disappointment in Legend as opposed to a disappointment in Legend being huge.

I mostly agree with your post at Core Design. Legend looks awesome, but it doesn't quite have the Tomb Raider spirit (in my opinion). I think your alternative will be TR8.

This may be a dumb question, but why should we post messages in a Core Design forum. Wouldn't it be better in a CD or Eidos forum? You would think Eidos is receiving some feedback right here.

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 14:32
lol, I didn't realize what i said had two meanings. Of course I am hugely disappointed, to make matters clear. (Still laughing about that)

The reason why I wrote to Core and not Eidos... is simply because they developed the game, Eidos only published it.
And I just cannot for the life of me imagine that TR in Chrystal D's hands will change from the POP style they now apply.

RuumTaedor
12th Apr 2006, 14:40
Oh, I get it. You are requesting Core Design provide another Tomb Raider installment, in the hopes that they'll get it right. I thought Core Design was not in the loop any longer. I guess it can't hurt to request, but I would think the decision belongs to Eidos.

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 14:43
No, sorry you don't get it... I'm not asking for Core to make another TombRaider game. Which they can't because they haven't got the rights to do so anymore. I'm asking for a game with the name of ... say... "Expedition" or "Finders" or "Seekers" or "Explorers". No Lara in it. Maybe a little green apple. As long as it can move and explore as Lara used to.

RuumTaedor
12th Apr 2006, 15:00
Oh, I get it (that somehow sounds familiar :p). Forgive me for being a little slow on the uptake. I think I understand this time. A new game with the Tomb Raider look and feel. Interesting idea.

westy159
12th Apr 2006, 15:01
Agreed about TRL but I would rather see a new game to be more like TR3 and 2. I didnt really like the original TRs enclosed and confined levels.

GoranAgar
12th Apr 2006, 15:05
Most people who are responsible for the old Tomb Raider games are not even at Core Design anymore.

Did you miss that?

And most people seem to be quite happy with Tomb Raider Legend.

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 15:22
This makes me think of a question I was about to ask. Given a choice, would you take a so-so "official" TR game that features Lara, or a excellent TR-style game which does NOT include Lara, but rather some all-new character. I know for me it's a no-brainer-- I'd take the excellent TR-style game without Lara.

Verios
12th Apr 2006, 15:35
This makes me think of a question I was about to ask. Given a choice, would you take a so-so "official" TR game that features Lara, or a excellent TR-style game which does NOT include Lara, but rather some all-new character. I know for me it's a no-brainer-- I'd take the excellent TR-style game without Lara.

If it puts an end to all the nonsense on this board lately I'm all for it! More Lara for us! :D

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 15:45
If it puts an end to all the nonsense on this board lately I'm all for it! More Lara for us! :D

Which are you all for? The excellent TR-style game, or the so-so "official" TR game?

(note that I am not saying Legend is "so-so", this is purely hypothetical.)

-Dizzy-
12th Apr 2006, 15:46
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Core's next game was similar to old Tomb Raider games. It would be the best way for them to ensure they have a hit. There is always the chance that they want to try something new though.

I would like to see Core make a similar game, but that doesn't mean I dislike Legend. I think the new style has loads of potential and sadly Legends didn't even begin to scratch the surface.

It's like the Resident Evil situation. Resident Evil 4 was an amazing game, and even though some old fans loved it some of them were disappointed that it was so different to the previous games. Of course there was a very small minority that hated it completely.

Legend is a good game, Core's TR series were good games. But each series is good in its own way. In a perfect world both developers would be making TR games but obviously that can never happen. I've pointed out what's missing before, but I'm at a point now where I don't even think we should be comparing the games anymore. I enjoy Legend for what it is, not what it could have been.

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 15:48
Goran... I didn't know that... still, I don't think I'm asking the unthinkable...

and I've seen that lots of people are delighted with Legend, however I've seen just as many posts from people who are disappointed yet again. and I don't think it's a case of "you can't please everybody". I think that, all along, too many people who don't enjoy exactly what I'm asking for (and for clarification: by saying "I" I mean me and all the pple who did enjoy the exploring and the pace, and the not at all so bad controls), had a say in which direction the game should go, which is a shame. there are plenty of jump+run games out there already.
I would go for the alternative to TR, if only there was one.

bene
12th Apr 2006, 15:49
Most people who are responsible for the old Tomb Raider games are not even at Core Design anymore.

Did you miss that?

And most people seem to be quite happy with Tomb Raider Legend.


Goran, reading your replies has brought quite a few smiles to my face today - Thanks:D

Lone Raider,
to be clear here:

Are you looking for games like the older TR games? You already have easy access to them.
We all loved the older games but they are now officially gone EXCEPT in custom levels.
There is an abundance of good to excellent custom levels out there that have everything you want in a TR game. AND more come out every week! All you need is the level editor from Chronicles to start playing them. In fact, the editor can now be downloaded from the net.
Enjoy Legend for what it is - a New Century Lara for a New Century gaming experience and start playing all the custom levels that bring you back to what we all initially loved about TR.:)

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 15:56
Aye. I am.

I would absolutely love to play the LE levels. I even downloaded some levels on the weekend after being so frustrated with Legend. But for some reason the whole thing didnt install properly, I got an error mesage which said something about Severe, and Windows, but it went away before I could write it down. And now not even the playable tutorial level will load. Also I'm no good with the pc controls as I've always played on PS, and I haven't got a game pad. So I can't play them. I can't even, and have never, played the gold levels since they were all for PC (which I always thought of as being a bit unfair, sigh).

I just can't enjoy Legend like (sorry for being sarcastic here) I'm being told I should. I find it boring to move Lara, the puzzles insulting, and the beauty of the grafix and the good sound are just a wind up since the rest is missing.

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 15:56
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Core's next game was similar to old Tomb Raider games. It would be the best way for them to ensure they have a hit. There is always the chance that they want to try something new though.

I thought Project Eden (also by Core) was a great evolution of Tomb Raider. It took the idea of 3rd person exploration and puzzle solving, but put it in an all-new context and incorporated team work for puzzling solving. It's a shame it wasn't more successful.

soulguard
12th Apr 2006, 15:59
Heh, good points on all accounts. But I wonder... why did they make the game so easy? Why take away the complicated puzzles that were the backbone of TR? I mean, what group of people thought that makeing TR into an action game would be the next step for Lara? :confused:

Honestly, I haven't purchased TR:L yet (and eventually I will), but all this talk of "Ease, none thinking puzzles, and nothing like TombRaider"... well, it scare and frustrates me. :(

~soulguard

Xxx_Lara_xxX
12th Apr 2006, 16:18
I mean, what group of people thought that makeing TR into an action game would be the next step for Lara?

Eh... Core? :o From TR2 onwards it became a killing random generic enemy people action game. By the time AOD rolled around we were shooting "ghosts" with a shotgun :confused: to paralyze it :rolleyes: Throwing holy water or a crucifix (or star of david, what have you) at a ghost would make more sense than shooting it with a shotgun... though I suppose that's supposed to be "original", Lara shooting a poltergeist :p

Besides Core doesn't really exist anymore, and the people at Circle Studios aren't the same ones who made the first TR's - just read the back page of the book with the credits following each game, the names change every time. I don't know if a single designer from the first game was still there for AOD.

TR was Toby Gard's concept, when he left then Core took over "the franchise" milking the concept to death as old developers left and new people came and the games became progressively worse. I don't know what you would expect from them or this petition. Another Chronicles or AOD with a generic Lara rip-off character?? But if it makes you feel better, go ahead and petition eidos. ;)

-Dizzy-
12th Apr 2006, 16:20
and I've seen that lots of people are delighted with Legend, however I've seen just as many posts from people who are disappointed yet again.
This is honestly the only forum I have seen where people are disappointed with Legend, which isn't surprising since a lot of the hardcore TR fans are here. Check any other game forum and pretty much everyone seems to like the game.



Heh, good points on all accounts. But I wonder... why did they make the game so easy? Why take away the complicated puzzles that were the backbone of TR?
A lot of people struggled with the previous TR games. I think they just wanted this game to appeal to a whole new type of gamer, especially the casual gamers that watched the movies.

Their plan worked too well though, everyone seems to be finishing Legend....and everyone is complaining about how short & easy it was.

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 16:34
everyone else seems to like it? Excuse me, then, these here must all spring from my imagination.


http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59751

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59725

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59629

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=58888

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=58614

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=58558

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59284

etc. You want more? There are more.


Sorry again. But why can't people just read what I said? if you don't share my opinion, why bother to argue with me about it? I just want a decent alternative, not an argument or (as has happened ) bullying into liking Legend. ****, I do like some things about Legend. Just not the bits that are really important to me. And thanks Mangar, I'm going to check out Project Eden.

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 16:36
I think they just wanted this game to appeal to a whole new type of gamer, especially the casual gamers that watched the movies.

.

Didn't they just. And completely shoved off the other type of gamer... the ones who liked playing it all along.

movieman
12th Apr 2006, 16:37
Their plan worked too well though, everyone seems to be finishing Legend....and everyone is complaining about how short & easy it was.

Indeed. IMHO they were going in the right direction, but went too far: hopefully they'll get the balance right in TR8.

-Dizzy-
12th Apr 2006, 16:43
everyone else seems to like it? Excuse me, then, these here must all spring from my imagination.


http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59751

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59725

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59629

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=58888

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=58614

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=58558

http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=59284

etc. You want more? There are more.


Sorry again. But why can't people just read what I said? if you don't share my opinion, why bother to argue with me about it? I just want a decent alternative, not an argument or (as has happened ) bullying into liking Legend. ****, I do like some things about Legend. Just not the bits that are really important to me. And thanks Mangar, I'm going to check out Project Eden.
I said every forum that I have seen. ;)

By that I mean general games forums, including IGN, Gamespot, Gamefaqs and a couple of others. This one, and the one you linked to are full of hardcore fans so obviously there will be some that hate it.

I have seen more people say they like the game than people that say they hate it. I just don't see the point in complaining anymore, it's not like a big greedy publisher like Eidos is going to listen to anyone, not when plenty of people like the game....including people that were put off by the controls in previous games. The best you can hope for is that Core make a spiritual sequel. Other developers have done it before (e.g. Free Radical making Timesplitters) so it's not completely hopeless.

Lone Raider
12th Apr 2006, 16:52
It was the controls of AoD that were disastrous... the old controls were just fine... I'm sorry I apologize for being angry but I have been very wound up today by having to read all over again that I was childish and would have to get used to it, that Legend was so much better than every other TR ever, that pple have already replayed it ten times and still think it's the best ever, (when it's been out ...not even a week), that people are getting sick of other people not liking it and tell me to shut up whinging, and others have received hate mail for voicing their honest opinion. That is just too much. I, too, have waited years and years for the TR experience to return, instead I had to fight controls and some stupid zombies in AoD, and now I have to fight TombRaider Lite.

soulguard
12th Apr 2006, 16:54
Eh... Core? :o From TR2 onwards it became a killing random generic enemy people action game. By the time AOD rolled around we were shooting "ghosts" with a shotgun :confused: to paralyze it :rolleyes: Throwing holy water or a crucifix (or star of david, what have you) at a ghost would make more sense than shooting it with a shotgun... though I suppose that's supposed to be "original", Lara shooting a poltergeist :p

You hit the nail on the head, Lara. :) They left the "Adventure" part out around game 3 or 4. Well ... the exploring aspect of Aventure.

Sigh... I'm really mixed, torn even, about getting Legend. I was really hoping it to be the "Game to get for the 360". I'm sure I'll get it, but gosh, so much negativity floating around since its release.

BTW: To stay on topic, good luck with this. It would be nice to get another free roaming explorer game. For now, I'll stick with KotOR, and hope that TR:L isn't as bad as people are saying. Though the average gamer seems to like it.

~soulguard

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 17:13
They left the "Adventure" part out around game 3 or 4. Well ... the exploring aspect of Aventure.

Um, no, that was TR2. TR2 was mainly about shooting as many enemies as possible. It seems everytime you turned a corner in that game, you were being attacked. In TR3, Core realized that they had made a mistake by switching the emphasis from exploring to combat, and so they purposely made much larger levels with multiple paths, plenty of secrets, etc, etc. There was still a fair amount of combat, but they definitely brought back the exploration aspect, moreso than ever. TR4 didn't have as much exploring as TR3 (partly, I assume, because people began complaining that TR3's levels were entirely TOO big), but it still had much more emphasis on puzzles and adventuring than on combat when compared to TR2.

-Dizzy-
12th Apr 2006, 17:15
It was the controls of AoD that were disastrous... the old controls were just fine... I'm sorry I apologize for being angry but I have been very wound up today by having to read all over again that I was childish and would have to get used to it, that Legend was so much better than every other TR ever, that pple have already replayed it ten times and still think it's the best ever, (when it's been out ...not even a week), that people are getting sick of other people not liking it and tell me to shut up whinging, and others have received hate mail for voicing their honest opinion. That is just too much. I, too, have waited years and years for the TR experience to return, instead I had to fight controls and some stupid zombies in AoD, and now I have to fight TombRaider Lite.
I often hear about people having trouble with the AoD controls, and I have the game on PC and never understodd why everyone complained. I was using a D-Pad and it was working just like previous TR games did....

.....then I bought the game on PS2.

It's was a complete nightmare at first. The controls just didn't suit the camera angles. Plus the controls changed when Lara walked. I've started to get used to it but the first 30 minutes were terrible.

My favourite TR games is still TR1, Legend was a good game but didn't have enough in it to make it the best TR game. Not enough enemies, not enough traps, not enough surprises, not enough exploration.

Silva
12th Apr 2006, 17:18
Sorrry BUDDY, but Legend rocks!

Core mad AOD..Legend looks, feels a lot better...hope crystal dynamics do it again...

Beechwell
12th Apr 2006, 17:30
Well, good luck with your request. But honestly I don't think it has much chance of success. As people have said, Eidos is not the same as it was when they designed TR1. Wouldn't a petition to CD make more sense, asking them to carry on the good traits from the old games?
No matter who develops your proposed game, they always need a producer (Eidos) to invest the money on a game they think will be successfull. So I think it's actually them you have to convince that people want the old Tob Raider back.

But if Mangar is right about Project Eden, then maybe you should try that.

I must say than I am not sure if you would chose an "old tomb Raider" style game over a fairly well done game with Lara Croft in it. The Appeal TR had to me has always been more the heroine than the challenge of looking everywhere for the right key to open the next door. If I want a real challenge than I stick to strategy games. But that's just me.

EDIT: Still, I support your notion that we should point out the weaknesses of Legend and tell Eidos/DC what kind of game we want.

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 17:42
The Appeal TR had to me has always been more the heroine than the challenge of looking everywhere for the right key to open the next door.

Interesting.... To me, the gameplay is what makes TR worthwhile, not the character. For example, if they put Lara in a fishing game, I wouldn't buy it. But if they made a TR-style game without Lara, I would buy it.

Shehi
12th Apr 2006, 17:46
I just want to add some of my thoughts too:

I understand LR is frustrated for some reasons of his/her own, that is completely normal. But as I already said in Core forum and as Goran reminded here, most of people left Core long time ago already. Plus, LR, the links to topics you posted above, actually do not mean that majority hates the game. Why? Because those who love the game generally don't talk too much about how they like it. They just play it, love it, enjoy it and let it go. One more finished game in their list. Those who don't like it, come and fight - not because majority of them are hardcore fans, but because most think their money was not worth of it. So if you gather all negative factors together (money they spent, gameplay and other factors they disliked, loss of old style for hardcore fans etc) it is enough reason for them to come and post their complaints. Also we all know that game sales are bursting in both America and Europe, which shows that title is quite a success. Yes, AOD sold well too, but I am sure everyone here will agree that Legend is not AOD in any way, so I am one of those who believes sales numbers are justified and they clearly show the success of title.

So overall, again I understand you, but I don't find it correct to start a topic in Core forum - let's not forget that it may hurt a lot of people out there.

susan
12th Apr 2006, 18:13
I thought Project Eden (also by Core) was a great evolution of Tomb Raider. It took the idea of 3rd person exploration and puzzle solving, but put it in an all-new context and incorporated team work for puzzling solving. It's a shame it wasn't more successful.I just played that game for the second time quite recently. It still plays very, very well. I think the graphics let it down on release, even for the time they were poor. If it had the same quality of graphics as Legend, it'd be a superb game. :thumbsup:

It'll be interesting to see what Circle release in the future, although their first game was panned by the critics.

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 18:27
I just played that game for the second time quite recently. It still plays very, very well. I think the graphics let it down on release, even for the time they were poor. If it had the same quality of graphics as Legend, it'd be a superb game. :thumbsup:

I really don't remember the graphics being particularly bad at the time... maybe a bit bland in a few places, but overall I thought they were decent. Most of the reviews I saw had criticized it as being a boring, tedious game with a cumbersome interface. I couldn't disagree more with them. I don't remember ever being bored-- every level was like a huge puzzle and you had to constantly be thinking (and occasionally shooting.) But I think some reviewers had mistakenly categorized it as a shooter simply because your characters had guns, so they expected non-stop action, and ended up getting bored when it turned out to be more of a puzzle game with a few action bits.

sup2069
12th Apr 2006, 19:03
No, sorry you don't get it... I'm not asking for Core to make another TombRaider game. Which they can't because they haven't got the rights to do so anymore. I'm asking for a game with the name of ... say... "Expedition" or "Finders" or "Seekers" or "Explorers". No Lara in it. Maybe a little green apple. As long as it can move and explore as Lara used to.

lol

Great Idea, I like it.

Beechwell
12th Apr 2006, 20:18
Interesting.... To me, the gameplay is what makes TR worthwhile, not the character. For example, if they put Lara in a fishing game, I wouldn't buy it. But if they made a TR-style game without Lara, I would buy it.
Just to get things straight: I wouldn't buy a Lara fishing game either, but neither would I buy a tomb raider style game with good gameplay but uninteresting storyline. It's a combination of both that makes a game grand.
Lacking character/storyline was the one thing I hated about Prince of Persia: Warrior within. You only run around on that deserted island, and the charcter of the prince was rather boring and self-centered.

Mangar The Dark
12th Apr 2006, 20:26
Just to get things straight: I wouldn't buy a Lara fishing game either, but neither would I buy a tomb raider style game with good gameplay but uninteresting storyline. It's a combination of both that makes a game grand.

Oh, ok. So we're kind of on the same page. I guess the difference for me is that I don't need Lara to be a part of the story for the story to be good. Actually, I've found protagonists in other games to be more compelling than Lara-- April Ryan, Kate Walker, George Stobbard, etc. Maybe that's not really a fair comparison because they're all from graphic adventures rather than TR style games. So, to be a bit more fair, I'd say I enjoyed "Rune" a lot because of its combination of TR style gameplay with Norse mythology. I guess my point is, I do value story and gameplay, and I don't mind if Lara is a part of it, as long as the story/gameplay is good.

TRfan
12th Apr 2006, 20:56
These threads always get deleted for some reason. I think people should be able to express their frustrations with TRL. I understand they probably dont want potential buyers to read this and not buy the game but eh. That's the way of the business.

Now, I haven't played the game yet mainly because I do read these reviews and if a lot of people have expressed dissapointment, then whats the purpose of me forkin over $50 for a game I probably wont care to play in a few days? I do plan to rent the game. At this point, I don't feel like Im missing out on much. Videos at IGN, Gamespot, etc... pretty much show you that this game isn't that complicated nor does it appear to be hours and hours and hourrrrrrrrrrs of action packed fun. The previews basically showed you that you'll be guided through the game instead of being allowed to explore, which I dislike and most likely, the only difficulty from the game are the shot outs, which Im sure just flipping around and shooting for a good minute or so eases things up.

Oh, my question... remember when you held on to ledges and they gave you a certain amount of time to get to a platform? Is that used in this game?

Beechwell
12th Apr 2006, 21:04
Oh, my question... remember when you held on to ledges and they gave you a certain amount of time to get to a platform? Is that used in this game?
You do have to do some timed cimbing due to ledges falling off. There are a couple of timed doors, but they are always visible from the opening lever and easy to reach.