PDA

View Full Version : Idea regarding the controls:



Vampmaster
10th Apr 2006, 23:36
A lot of people are saying how much they hate the new control system cause they're too easy or too dissimilar from the ones they are used to in previous games. Well the BO2 controls were a lot closer to the old Tomb Raider games, so maybe people would prefer those. If it was up to me (I actually prefer the new Legend controls), you'd be able to choose between the TRL and TR1 styles and everybody could be happy, but perhaps the controls like BO2 (which I still found better than the old TR games) would make a nice comprimise. Plus crystal dynamics already have the engine for that so they could either switch to that one or just incorporate it's controls into the current engine.

Legendary Lara Croft
10th Apr 2006, 23:41
good thing is that you can adjust controls the way you want them on PC and also use joystick if you want

RAZMAT
11th Apr 2006, 15:52
what is bo2 vampmaster?

GoranAgar
11th Apr 2006, 15:55
Blood Omen 2. :)

portland bill
11th Apr 2006, 20:28
i have to say that the PC controls are the worst ever :mad:

why does lara not move in the direction she's facing when you press the forward key. it's so unintuitive it's unbeleivable. the camera moves around and changes the direction the keys make her move in, ridiculous:confused:

is there a work around for this? will a joystick help with this?

anyone got any ideas?

Fizzy243
11th Apr 2006, 21:18
I found with the gamepad if you move the camera angle to straight on (when possible) you can get the direction better. I haven't tried this with the keyboard though but maybe it will work.

bene
11th Apr 2006, 21:57
Use the mouse for directional control.
Once you get used to it, it becomes more fluid.;)

Vampmaster
11th Apr 2006, 22:15
i have to say that the PC controls are the worst ever :mad:

why does lara not move in the direction she's facing when you press the forward key. it's so unintuitive it's unbeleivable. the camera moves around and changes the direction the keys make her move in, ridiculous:confused:

is there a work around for this? will a joystick help with this?

anyone got any ideas?

Well the controls work according to the way the camera is facing, rather than which way Lara is facing. To some people (myself included), this new control method is more intuitive as pressing left/right will move her to your left/right instead or hers, up will always move her away from you, and down back towards you. If you're struggling with this you could either keep adjusting the camera so it stays behind her back or maybe in a few months when I get more time, I can look into patching it to lock the camera behind her automatically, so it always faces the same way Lara is. I suppose that would make the controls closer to what you want.

Kozey
11th Apr 2006, 22:20
I really can't understand what this is all about. Mouse-controlled movement has been a standard with PC games for a decade.(well, every game besides TR because they were so stagnant they couldn't be bothered to bring anything new) It's the way every single 3rd person (and not only) game published in the last 5 years works - how can you declare it "ridiculous"??:eek:

TRBeth
11th Apr 2006, 22:41
If you use the keyboard, which I have pretty much done so up until this game, then you must STOP using directional keys and get used to WASD keys. If you use these keys, then keep your other hand on the mouse for continuous control, it work ok. However, you will not have easy access to walk, which is why I am now learning to use a gamepad.

gervas
11th Apr 2006, 23:30
i agree, the controls for TRL are a complete lack of responsability, and a stupid move!! it's stupid because, before Eidos can think of getting new players, it must think first of the fans!!!! they threw away almost ten years of good controls!!!! to me and many people who play games for years on the PC the old controls were much more enjoyable, and intuitive!, i really miss the rush that making a jump, and having to tap CTRL to hold on, gave me!! i really hate the new mechanics!!!

IS TRL open to modding?? or is it quite closed?

Is There any modding project to restore the old mechanics, moves, and controls???

i wouldn't mind give it a try at modding TRL but alas i don't know scrap about the code, and modding in this game..anyone?

TRBeth
12th Apr 2006, 01:14
Its not just the controls that changed. The whole format changed, so I don't see being able to use the old controls for this game. But, I'm not a computer geek, so maybe so. The pc keyboard controls are actually ok IF AND ONLY IF THEY WILL GIVE IT AN EASY WALK. Forget the sneaky tiptoeing routine, and just let the girl sass her butt with a keystroke, already, all right?

portland bill
12th Apr 2006, 21:22
Well the controls work according to the way the camera is facing, rather than which way Lara is facing. To some people (myself included), this new control method is more intuitive as pressing left/right will move her to your left/right instead or hers, up will always move her away from you, and down back towards you. If you're struggling with this you could either keep adjusting the camera so it stays behind her back or maybe in a few months when I get more time, I can look into patching it to lock the camera behind her automatically, so it always faces the same way Lara is. I suppose that would make the controls closer to what you want.
Excellent idea! a patch would be great:thumbsup:

portland bill
1st Jan 2007, 15:21
Excellent idea! a patch would be great:thumbsup:

Bump

Lunideth
1st Jan 2007, 15:24
Pc controls are best if developer have seen a little effort in controls.
I have joustic in pc but i use it only in games where is impossible to use mouse. Otherwise mouse+keyboard are best controls ever.

aussie500
2nd Jan 2007, 02:48
If you use the keyboard, which I have pretty much done so up until this game, then you must STOP using directional keys and get used to WASD keys. If you use these keys, then keep your other hand on the mouse for continuous control, it work ok. However, you will not have easy access to walk, which is why I am now learning to use a gamepad.

Not that l ever used the walk button that much anyway but why would you not have easy access to walk, simply assign that function to a button reachable on the left hand side of the keyboard. The walk button was added in one of the update patches. Considering so many games use a similiar camera/control perspective as Legend l fail to see why so many people cannot get used to it, surely you all play other games and not just old Tomb Raider games. l hardly play any games these days and had no trouble adjusting to the change...true when l went back to playing Tomb Raider one l forgot the swimming controls were different, but l only did it a few times :whistle:

Terminatorvs
2nd Jan 2007, 07:24
There are other games except the old TRs - TPS and FPS. Play them. And you'll get used to the mouse. Besides, the new contols are a lot better - you don't have to wrestle with your keyboard anymore.

ditom
2nd Jan 2007, 13:23
I really like TRL controls.It's easier to control Lara:D .The worst controls was in AOD.I don't want to think about this game.

shirl123
2nd Jan 2007, 15:26
I really like TRL controls.It's easier to control Lara:D .The worst controls was in AOD.I don't want to think about this game.

you're talking about the PC versions, right? in this case, CONTROLING Lara on AOD was like controling a walking freezer. but as for the controls themselfs? well, the same controls from previous TRs, which were great, IMO.

unlike AOD, in TR:L it was a lot easier to control Lara (yet, the "new" camera and Lara running to the sides really bug me), but the controls themselfs were a pain...luckily, they can be customized. ahh, I have an idea! why don't we all post our customized controls? ;)

Lunideth
2nd Jan 2007, 16:04
you're talking about the PC versions, right? in this case, CONTROLING Lara on AOD was like controling a walking freezer. but as for the controls themselfs? well, the same controls from previous TRs, which were great, IMO.

unlike AOD, in TR:L it was a lot easier to control Lara (yet, the "new" camera and Lara running to the sides really bug me), but the controls themselfs were a pain...luckily, they can be customized. ahh, I have an idea! why don't we all post our customized controls? ;)

I disagree. For me controls in legend are extremely easy and good. You just need more practic with mouse and kayboard.

As about AOD everyaon are right that these controls sucked, but if you have joustic you can easily play it too. And if you really wanna know what means that controls suck i recommend to try "Devil May Cry 3 SE" on pc without joustic. After that you will know really what means suck. And even AOD was playable only bad thing there was that it was almost impossible to use mouse so i played only using keyboard. By impossible i mean that lara turned so slowly with mouse that i couldnt play with it. So they were almost same as in old tomb raiders (And yes i have played them all)

And as about all tomb raiders, legends controls are best. And if it is hard to play legend with keyboard and mouse there is only few things to do:
1. Buy joustick
2. Practise playing by playing other games
3. No Can Do... life is cold hard b***h

shirl123
2nd Jan 2007, 17:01
practice? hmmm... you're talking to the wrong person, mate. not only that I have my copy of TR:L since July, I also get to play some FPS games from time to time. I'm still having difficulties with TR:L, while with others I don't.
it's weird for me, because it usually takes less then 10 mins. for me to get used to these stuff.
...so I ended up customizing my controls, but I'm still quite slow. I have no idea how I managed to finish the time trials.

joysticks...never been a fan of those. not even on LucasArts' good 'ol Tie Fighter :o

Lunideth
2nd Jan 2007, 17:13
practice? hmmm... you're talking to the wrong person, mate. not only that I have my copy of TR:L since July, I also get to play some FPS games from time to time. I'm still having difficulties with TR:L, while with others I don't.
it's weird for me, because it usually takes less then 10 mins. for me to get used to these stuff.
...so I ended up customizing my controls, but I'm still quite slow. I have no idea how I managed to finish the time trials.

joysticks...never been a fan of those. not even on LucasArts' good 'ol Tie Fighter :o

Yes you need practise :) when i start playing new game i dont neet to get used to controls. I play right away. And only thing that i have to customize is i allways use "F" as action button and some games use "E" so i change it in every game to "F" and thats all.

And as i said try to play "Devil May Cry 3 SE" without joystick... controls in that game suck so much that after it joystick will feel like heaven.

shirl123
2nd Jan 2007, 18:54
I don't need to practice. the controls are still set to default + my preferences, I can use both. 6 monthes and I still need to practice? c'mon! :rolleyes:
TR:L, or the TR series isn't/aren't the only action game(s) that I play. practicing on other games? been there, done that. really.

like I said before - "it usually takes less then 10 mins. for me to get used to these stuff". in other words - I also "play it right away".

the reason why I hate joysticks with a passion is that they are very unstable for me, while the keyboard is stable and accurate.
some games are perfect/made for joysticks, just like DMC3SE (I guess this is why the PS2 version got a higher rank at gamespot then the PC version?) ...or Tie Fighter, back then. well, these games aren't for joystick-haters, like me ;) luckily, TR:L is "playable" with the keyboard.

Lunideth
2nd Jan 2007, 19:07
This is offtopic but you are 100% right about why ps2 DMC got better rewiew.
It is very great game, but on pc it is f***ed up by controls.

floydthebarber
2nd Jan 2007, 23:22
Some simple questions are:

1) What was it about the original PC controls that was bad and needed to be changed?

2)What does Lara do (in actual movements, not controls) in TRL that she couldn't do in the original with the existing controls (aside from the lame auto-grab), or with some added ones?

3)Why does the back button in TRL result in Lara doing an about face? Is she now incapable of walking backwards (this is one of the worst control ideas ever imo)?

4)Has the use of the mouse improved the actual "control" of Lara? I personally don't mind the control over the "view" it gives, but in terms of real physical control it is not what you can say is "an improvement". It just adds to the non-intuitive aspects these new controls provide. Perhaps on a game machine the controls are ok, I wouldn't know.

I just purchased Glidos and am re-playing the original game. I can't tell you how much better it is (graphics aside of course). I have not played the game in 10 years, and thankfully do not recall all of the levels so that now it is almost like new. I just finished "the Cistern" in almost the time it took me to finish all of TRL (a slight exaggeration, but am making a point). Having to hold down the grab key and release it when I have to is "real control". Not being placed in a position of the games choosing (cut-scenes and subsequent release to you) is also a plus. Not having idiots babbling to you constantly was delightful. The incidental music and ambient sounds created the perfect atmosphere for exploring, not the TRL "James Bond atmosphere" junk.

Ok, I have ranted enough. I'm sure that the kids today like this game and it's controls, perhaps I am just getting too old. I sure hope not.

Astara
2nd Jan 2007, 23:59
Gamepads on joysticks are pretty different. They have different controls and layouts. I'm not sure how a joystick would be mapped or used. TRL doesn't seem to directly have joystick support (unlike TR4 & 5). Seems you'd still have to use the keyboard for many functions. With the right gamepad, you can control all the game functions with the gamepad.

I started TRL with the keyboard but had problems with the Time Trials -- even with a heavily remapped/augmented key layout.

A bit of research, and I found that Logitech ('LT') makes a USB (or wireless) gamepad that's nearly identical in layout to Sony's PS/2. They even have a "RumblePad" model (not that exciting, IMO, but it was cheap...:-)).

I pretty much used the PS/2 layout, figuring the PS/2 layout was optimized for that controller, I would just use the same controller settings on the LT.

I used the LT configuration program to map button 10 on the LT gamepad (corresponds to 'start' on ps-2 controller) to "Escape" (helps in menu navigation), and button 11 on the LT (corresponds to L3: push down left analog stick/button on PS/2) to "Enter" (again, for menu navigating).

I bought my LT Rumblepad (USB) from www.provantage.com for under $20 (before shipping). The wireless is about 6 bucks more. BTW - price hint: if you have bought from them before, use a separate user account: they give a ~20% discount for 1st-time buyers (there may be an easier way to defeat their ID tracking, but it seems to go beyond cookie usage and can be tracked across multiple browsers on same account).

A gamepad makes certain parts of the game *much* easier -- like driving the motorcycles (still a PITA & boring :( , but easier to control) & the Ghana scene where the boulder comes rolling down on her in the hall after the rotating blades. With the gamepad, you can easily move in a diagonal vs. only forward & turn w/keypad.

One or two places where I find the gamepad more 'challenging': fighting the England dragon & jumping icebergs in Nepal. The iceberg jumping is difficult because the gamepad's "steering" is "touchy", and precision is helpful in that challenge. I think the dragon scenario is easier with mouse and keyboard, mainly because of my "mouse" (actually, a Kensington trackball) has two, extra, programmable mouse buttons. One the buttons holds down the left click until pressed a 2nd time (it has the effect auto-repeat shooting). This is useful in shooting the bell 4-5 times to make it "gong" & distract the dragon :whistle: .

Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to map games prior to TR7 (i.e. TR1-5). Development on the Logitech gamepad website site seems to have been halted for nearly a year :confused: . But hey, for $20, it's not a bad buy. :p

A*a

floydthebarber
3rd Jan 2007, 00:26
Gamepad? Gamepad? I don't have no gamepad! I don't need no stinkin' gamepad! :D

I have been a keyboard guy since my Apple IIc, through my IBM PS/2 and all the way through my current self-built machine (my 14th personal build). I also don't mind mouse/keyboard games (started with Descent for me I believe), but truly Tomb Raider never needed it. I have played hundreds and hundreds of PC games (never owned a game machine and never will) and have used many different keyboard/mouse layouts. But as my previous questions ask, why change the TR controls? And if you do, don't make them counter to what gamers of the series were used to!

What about my previous questions?

Astara
3rd Jan 2007, 03:29
Some simple questions are:

1) What was it about the original PC controls that was bad and needed to be changed?

They are difficult to use and non-intuitive.


3)Why does the back button in TRL result in Lara doing an about face? Is she now incapable of walking backwards (this is one of the worst control ideas ever imo)?

For one reason -- I don't think it is as realistic. People don't usually walk backwards -- even though you can see what is in back of her, she doesn't have eyes on the back of her head. One of the things I hate in so many movies is when they show the back of the character as they are backing up -- you just know they are going to backup into something or there is something behind them.



4)Has the use of the mouse improved the actual "control" of Lara? I personally don't mind the control over the "view" it gives, but in terms of real physical control it is not what you can say is "an improvement". It just adds to the non-intuitive aspects these new controls provide.


The mouse helps alot. You can navigate around most areas in the game by using the mouse and the "forward" key. You can precisely line Lara up for a jump, or to "activate" a feature (via "action"/enter). It took me a few minutes just to pull a level in TR4 because she wasn't exactly lined up -- and I found it difficult to do so because fine control from the side was difficult.

The old controls were (are) very non-intuitive. People don't move like that. It's a difference between a 1st person perspective and a 3rd person perspective. In the 3rd person perspective, it's like you are controlling a separate piece of machinery -- yes you have fine control's -- but it isn't as intuitive as controlling yourself. First person controls are what people are use to in real life ... I want to go forward (in the direction I am looking), I press forward. I want to turn & go sidesways, I can press a right or left. If I want Lara to run toward me, I use the arrow key that points toward me on my keyboard.

Another way to look at it: the movement in the game is the same as the directions the arrow keys point on the keyboard. In the 3rd person perspective, you have to filter all direction keys through a level of indirection. If lara is facing you, then right becomes left and left becomes right. If she is facing to the side, then right and left arrows become forwards OR backwards depending on how she is facing.

It's not intuitive to press forward and have the character on the screen move in a random direction based on "her" perspective -- it is *my* perspective as a gamer that is important "to me". I'll react more naturally and quickly if the directions are relative to me. With the old controls, I have to first -- look at the direction Lara is facing, then add my movement direction (the keys) to her current 'location' as adjusted by her current direction. If she is faced off to one side or the other, forward movement becomes less precise, as we can't see exactly what she is looking at. Now this is a difference that makes a difference in Legend (and the real world) vs. the cubic-world. In the real world (and legend) things don't always line up on straight lines. Imagine if you had to jump to 1 of two targets -- one lying at 85 degrees from vertical,
the other lying at 95 degrees. If she is faced to the side, can you tell if she is facing at 90, 85 or 95? From the side that's nearly impossible for most people to see -- but move the player in right behind her -- they can instantly see where she is headed. Then pressing forward takes them there. :)



Having to hold down the grab key and release it when I have to is "real control".


Again -- that difference between operating a remote-controlled machine vs. real life. In real life if you jumped across a gap and had to grab the other side, you wouldn't think about whether you wanted to grab or fall -- you'd instinctively grab -- it's not something you would think about. "Falling" isn't an option anyone would choose (barring masochists). So it is more real to have Lara respond "automatically" to certain situations. Say you are crossing something via a rope, hand-over-hand. If you were crossing, you wouldn't have to think about keeping your hands on the rope while you went forward -- you'd do it automatically. If you want to fall -- that's an action that takes 'thought' -- because it isn't automatic. Thus you have the option to "drop". But you wouldn't have to maintain concentration to keep holding on while you went forward (like you do in TR1-5 with holding action while moving forward).

Most of the movement differences seem to be a difference from moving from a remote-controlled machine to making the movements seem more naturally like we would execute those movements.



Not having idiots babbling to you constantly was delightful. The incidental music and ambient sounds created the perfect atmosphere for exploring, not the TRL "James Bond atmosphere" junk.

That's optional. There is a "volume" control for "voice" separate from music and special effects.

TRL was my first TR. I've gotten TR5 &4, but they are difficult and tedious to use/play. Besides the feeling that I'm controlling a robot, the program crashes are disheartening. I'm glad TRL is the way it is -- if it had been like it was, I probably would have quickly shelved it as "too much work, not enough fun". :(

floydthebarber
3rd Jan 2007, 04:01
A couple of responses:

How can you have anything meaningful to say about the original controls if you never played the games? And if you had, you would not have the attitude towards this that you have today. And you say that people don't usually walk backwards, well people don't scramble straight up 10 ft in a lunge on a cliffside either (another bad thing, turning Lara into a super-monkey). If I was going to jump across a small gap and needed a little head start, I would back up a couple steps.

The old controls gave you more control over movement (slow side movement, real backing up, etc.). At least they brought back the walk key (why it wasn't there originally is hard to believe). I can't tell you how many times I hit the back key in TRL only to wind up hanging on to a ledge because I moved "non-intuitively" and too fast. And just like when you back up a car (similar to operating a character on a pc mind you), the auto does not turn completely around.

No keyboard controls are truly "intuitive" to the movements of the on-screen character. Until they get a brain response headset some day, we will be dealing with some form of secondary controls. When I run the original Tomb Raider game, the keys are like a part of me. That's because I played 4 games with these same controls (well 3 1/2, I never completed Last Revelation). I'm sure that those who started with Legend probably never think about this, since this is all they know.

I will say though, that Legends controls are not horrible, just not for Lara and the Tomb Raider series. They'd be good on another game, like maybe for a lady James Bond or something, not an explorer/archaeologist. :D

Perhaps some would like a game with all cut-scenes, interspersed with occasional button pushing. Just not if it's too much or takes too long. :scratch:

portland bill
3rd Jan 2007, 08:31
I gave up on TRL because of the change of controls. i've now tried again and still can't play the game either with the keyboard and mouse or with a gamepad. The biggest issue i have is not so much with the controls but with having to compensate and adapt the controls to suit where the camera is and/or whether she has her guns out or not!

Despite all the arguments discussed on this thread, there has still not been any good reason given as to why the control system changes depending on whether she has her guns out or not.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, CAN WE HAVE A PATCH IN WHICH THE CAMERA IS ALWAYS BEHIND LARA (AS IN THE PREVIOUS TR GAMES). THAT WOULD SOLVE MOST PEOPLES CONTROL PROBLEMS (IT WOULD CERTAINLY SOLVE MINE)!

Astara
3rd Jan 2007, 11:02
A couple of responses:

How can you have anything meaningful to say about the original controls if you never played the games?
[quote]
I said I tried the controls. I found them considerably more difficult to learn than I did TRL's. I think this was by design -- they wanted a wider audience appeal, so they sat non-gamers down and had them play the game. They watch these new gamers to see what worked for them, what was easy, what didn't work...etc. Complex movement frustrated people and tended to make them want to put the game down.
We don't need such lessons to make a bicycle go, and we shouldn't need much more instruction for moving through the maze. I'm still learning 'fine' points, but it has a low enough starting point that I can get in and start having fun. Studying is like *homework*. Eeuuw.

[quote]
And if you had, you would not have the attitude towards this that you have today.

I did try the earlier TR1-3 games on demos -- the interface was way too difficult to get her to do anything I wanted, so I gave up and decided it wasn't a game for me. This was back in the mid-late 90's.



And you say that people don't usually walk backwards, well people don't scramble straight up 10 ft in a lunge on a cliffside either (another bad thing, turning Lara into a super-monkey).


Lara has suprahuman powers -- she can do acrobats and has physical strength, speed and skill to do manything "ordinary people" can't do.
Haven't you see her gymnasium? She can do way awesome acrobatics.


If I was going to jump across a small gap and needed a little head start, I would back up a couple steps.[/quote

If you were on uneven terrain, you wouldn't last long. If you want to last, you turn around and look where you are walking. Think of her teaching new survival skills...:D

[quote]
The old controls gave you more control over movement (slow side movement, real backing up, etc.). ... I can't tell you how many times I hit the back key in TRL only to wind up hanging on to a ledge because I moved "non-intuitively" and too fast. And just like when you back up a car (similar to operating a character on a pc mind you), the auto does not turn completely around.

So? You are hanging onto a ledge -- would you rather have jumped back a step and gone over? I had that happen in TR5 more than once,
trying to line up a jump, step back -- oops one step was too much and I fell backward off a block. I much prefer the current system. I agree that the old system gives you more conscious control over lara's movements, but -- I don't want to have to think about movement -- it shouldn't feel complex or as though you need to count square to or from something. In TRL, you can't count -- no more squares -- things are odd values. You'd be much less happy with the old movements in the new world.
The old movements are square-based movements and you're moving in a round world -- not the best adaptation. It's like using "digital for control before", and now we are using "analog". Our body intuitively knows how much to tense for what size of jump or what size step to take, or what specific degree course to take -- a straight line, rather than a series of forward, right, forward, left...

Yes, the old controls are like driving a car, but Lara isn't a car. People don't steer that way when they are walking. The idea is to make Lara's movement human, not like an inhuman car. Maybe this is a shift in the game -- before you "drove" Lara, like a Robot, but now the game places you more "in" Lara. It's not a true 1st person game (don't think I would enjoy that), but its more like you are her guardian angel that sees things looking at her. You have the choice (usually) of where to see her from. That drove me crazy in TR4 -- I wanted to look around and view her from a different angle -- but there was no camera control. No fun.



No keyboard controls are truly "intuitive" to the movements of the on-screen character. Until they get a brain response headset some day, we will be dealing with some form of secondary controls. When I run the original Tomb Raider game, the keys are like a part of me. That's because I played 4 games with these same controls (well 3 1/2, I never completed Last Revelation). I'm sure that those who started with Legend probably never think about this, since this is all they know.


If I started on those games at a young age, I could have them be 2nd nature now too -- just like typing on a qwerty keyboard. I don't think about where the keys are -- I just type. But if I try to shift to a Dvorak keyboard -- oh my gawd. I'd try it for an hour or two at a time -- I'd get a nasty headache. I learned qwerty while still pre-teen, but Dvorak I didn't try until I was nearly double that age. It's alot hardy to learn a new arbitrary input system as you get older.

So the purpose of changing the interface now: 1) new world to move in. It's not cubic. Distances vary due to surface covering. Even what we think of as the same jump is unlikely to be exactly the same jump in real life -- a foot is place differently, slight difference in momentum, balance, etc. Compensating for all of those differences in "real time" is something you are used to doing all the time in your body with 'analog' systems. For the controls -- the idea there is to make them as close to people movement and as easy to use as if they were doing it themselves.

If I look at a chasm to jump in TR4, how do I know how to cross it?
Can I just run and that will carry me, or standing jump, or running jump or jump with a grab...it isn't easy to measure distances in TRL. If you had to make up all those technical decisions each jump, the game would go much slower (could be one reason why this game goes faster for most). But people don't usually like to have to think alot about how to take their next step -- they just want to walk (or run...etc).



I will say though, that Legends controls are not horrible, just not for Lara and the Tomb Raider series. They'd be good on another game, like maybe for a lady James Bond or something, not an explorer/archaeologist. :D

The controls seem similar to those in first-person shooters and games like Myst. Anyone I've talked to says Lara Croft is a combination of an adventure type game (like Myst) and a first-person shooter. It has some of both. In order to broaden the appeal of the game, making the controls similar to other games of the same genre would help. No?
The true fans will learn the new controls as easily as the old (besides, the game does allow fairly flexible key remapping). And, hopefully, it will become more accessible to others (me). Like I said earlier -- I tried one of the earlier TR games and found it too difficult to catch on. I gave up and lost interest. Now that the game has improved, I like it. I don't think I'm the only person with such experiences.



Perhaps some would like a game with all cut-scenes, interspersed with occasional button pushing. Just not if it's too much or takes too long. :scratch:
---Ug....Isn't that pretty much the same as an interactive DVD?

Portland bill: You can't do it with a PS/2 compatible gamepad on the PC? All the buttons map to the gamepad. It makes most game play easier -- especially battle. If you want the camera behind lara in battle, try maybe the "Advanced Toggle" mode ... she maintains locks on enemies which usually keeps you behind her -- not exactly or strictly, but approximately.

I'm not sure what you mean by the control system changes depending on whether or not she has guns in both her hands. What do you mean? Movement is same, jump and duck are same, what are you referring to?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't bother asking for a patch at this point -- they are heavily into TRA development, and the type of change you want isn't even a bug -- it's a request for a new feature. That would be alot of work. Do you think they would be able to resell the "upgrade" or fix to anyone who wanted it? Or, do you think that such a fix would allow them to charge more for a game that's already been out for nearly a year? If the answers to those questions are 'no', how can they afford to hire someone to fix it? People want to put food on their table and can't work for free so well.

A*a

floydthebarber
3rd Jan 2007, 15:27
So let me get this straight:

The original game was a huge success and spawned a number of equally successful sequels, even though "the interface was way too difficult to get her to do anything I wanted" as you say. If what you say truly was the case, no one would have wanted the sequels, and they no doubt would have changed the controls after the first one to "improve" the game.

So in your opinion, the secret to continuing a successful series is to invite a bunch of non-gamers (who may not even buy this game, or any game for that matter!) to criticize and assess something that they know nothing about. Then after using this new data in the new game, alienate the gamers who bought the series in the first place! All because a bunch of people who don't even care about gaming were given credence. They also must have said to "dumb-down" the game and shrink it up considerably for the "ADD" crowd. How pathetic! I should point out that I did not buy TRL, I received it as a Christmas present.

If something works (the proof is in the pudding as they say, millions of games sold and a successful ongoing series) you have no reason to alter the basic concepts of the game. I bet they assumed that the true fans of the game would accept the new controls without much contempt.

I have played hundreds of games. I have played many mouse/keyboard games. As I said, the controls are not bad in TRL, just not that good either. If they were more like Morrowind/Oblivion, then that would be an improvement. But I digress, the old controls did everything that you needed; that is, gave you "control".

Astara
4th Jan 2007, 09:07
So let me get this straight:
The original game was a huge success and spawned a number of equally successful sequels, even though "the interface was way too difficult to get her to do anything I wanted" as you say. If what you say truly was the case, no one would have wanted the sequels, and they no doubt would have changed the controls after the first one to "improve" the game.Sales for the series have been steadily dropping since the first or second game. World wide, sales for the first 3 were 7, 8 and 3 million. Subsequent sales were lower.

So in your opinion, the secret to continuing a successful [sic*] series is to invite a bunch of non-gamers to criticize and assess something that they know nothing about.
Absolutely. You conduct focus groups to see how to make a GUI 'approachable', 'easy to use'. You don't want the game to be technically difficult to use. But it's not just my opinion -- here's the comments from the Lead Designer, Riley Cooper: "[i]...we got people who had never seen the game before to play. Invariably, what we found is that people got stuck in the same places. Some 'stucks' are okay. You come into a room and there's a puzzle you have to solve, and you have to look around and figure it out. That's great. But when players have no idea what to do next, that's not fun, that's why they put the controller down."

That's similar to my experience when I tried an older game in a store. The learning curve was too steep, it didn't appear to be fun. That's not good for attracting new users. In the marketplace, you either grow or die.
If something works (the proof is in the pudding as they say, millions of games sold and a successful ongoing series) you have no reason to alter the basic concepts of the game.
Your pudding has gone bad. :D The game was not a successful ongoing series. The series was dying. Sales figures for the first 6 games in the US tell the story pretty well figures are in units sold, all platforms:

TR1 -----------------* 1.8M
TR2 ----------------* 1.7M
TR3 ------------* 1.3M
TR4 --------* .9M
TR5 --* 300K
TR6 -* 235K

Sorry to disillusion you, but those are hardly the figures of a successful ongoing franchise. Game development is getting more expensive and sales were decreasing by an average of 33% with each successive release.
invite a bunch of non-gamers to criticize and assess something that they know nothing about.They didn't criticize, they were watched. The game designers watched people, not familiar with TR, "try" to play and watched where they got stuck.
Then after using this new data in the new game, alienate the gamers who bought the series in the first place! How pathetic! Given the postings in the forums, it doesn't seem to have alienated most people. You seem to be in a minority. TRL reached 2.6M units sold in its first five weeks, topping the UK charts. According to Eidos, it is the fastest selling Tomb Raider title, ever. You may not like it, but companies often focus on attracting new customers while not giving so much attention to current customers. I don't know if nearly 10 times the sales is that pathetic, though.
But I digress, the old controls did everything that you needed; that is, gave you "control".
I didn't disagree with that. As I mentioned, it was like controlling a remote-controlled robot -- and she sorta moved like one too. Each step exactly the same, every movement exactly predictable -- that's not realistic. Neither is it realistic to have to "change direction" (waddling like a penguin), first, then start walking forward. In real life, if you are standing, you can walk in any direction. It's not a separate function.

At the same time, the game has brought Lara's movement into the user: instead of remotely directing her actions in the 3rd person, movement is directed from your own perspective (the user's) -- in 1st person. It is the difference between "she turns right" and "I turn right". I can imagine that some males, in particular, might be less comfortable with this shift and might prefer the distancing of the previous 3rd-person movement. I can also understand how some might feel uncomfortable if they didn't have as much fine-tuned control over her. Perhaps these factors affect your opinion?

I'm sorry I'm not better at saying what I am saying -- too often I don't know how to say things without people getting peeved at me. It isn't meant personally.

A*a

portland bill
4th Jan 2007, 09:47
[QUOTE=floydthebarber;605992]
I'm not sure what you mean by the control system changes depending on whether or not she has guns in both her hands. What do you mean? Movement is same, jump and duck are same, what are you referring to?

Unfortunately, I wouldn't bother asking for a patch at this point -- they are heavily into TRA development, and the type of change you want isn't even a bug -- it's a request for a new feature. That would be alot of work. Do you think they would be able to resell the "upgrade" or fix to anyone who wanted it? Or, do you think that such a fix would allow them to charge more for a game that's already been out for nearly a year? If the answers to those questions are 'no', how can they afford to hire someone to fix it? People want to put food on their table and can't work for free so well.

A*a

What I'm refering to is that, without guns, she moves in the direction that the CAMERA is facing whereas, with guns out, she moves in the direction that SHE is facing. That is weird and not logical at all. Either she should move in the direction the camera is facing, or in the dirction she is facing, ALL THE TIME, this shouldn't be dependant on whether she has her guns out or not. This is especially illogical when she's on the move, guns out, and then she puts her guns away automatically (why does she do that?) and consequently veers off in a completley different direction. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself clearly; I'll try again. Example:- Lara is moving towards you, guns out, and you're pressing the down key. She then automatically puts her guns away and instantly swings round by 180 degree. Nothing else has changed, the camera is still in the same position and yet pressing the same key now means that she moves in the opposite direction. This is my main beef with the controls; either keep consistent diretion controls OR keep the camera position consistent, it's illogcal to mix them.

My 2nd point was refering to an earlier message from Vampmaster in which he/she said "I can look into patching it to lock the camera behind her automatically, so it always faces the same way Lara is. I suppose that would make the controls closer to what you want." I was hoping that a patch would have been available now

floydthebarber
4th Jan 2007, 15:35
Astara, you write very well (albeit a bit long-winded :) ). A discussion in print should be construed as just that. I don't read anything into it, just read it. So I don't try and find hostility or anger where it isn't expressly intended. I do however think that using too many quotes can make one appear to be hostile to some. I don't normally read it that way. You are a thorough and precise writer.

However, no matter how you look at it the series was successful. In today's corporate landscape it may not be what a bean-counter considers successful, but I mean over 1.3 million sales in the US for each of the first 3 is darn great. And I should mention that in #4 the controls changed slightly; I could not remap some the way I had before. And as I recall, there was an unusual key that you had to press to end the game (I remember my push every button routine). So this could explain the large drop off after #4 (as much as any other reason). I stopped buying after #4 partly because of this (in fact, I never completed it). Explaining the sales of TRL is easy; it is on many platforms and the graphics are first rate. Kids love that. I'll bet that the majority of those who love the controls did not master the original ones.

We should stop talking about controls being "realistic". No controls will ever be that (until as I said they come right from our brains into the character). In fact her true movements certainly are not realistic at all! So in reality the controls simply need to be "controls". And IMO the more control the better. You are exactly right, I need fine control of the character. And truth be told Lara is a remote-controlled robot. And you hold the remote control. I truly hate and despise the interactive cut-scenes. They take away any character control and timing that you should have in a game (particularly when they tell you what to do!). Cut-scenes are fine, interactive ones suck.

And Portland Bill, you mention the reason I was most upset at the game. In the original game, the camera always was behind Lara unless you looked around with the look key. The camera in TRL sucks (the best way to describe it). If the coordination with movement is not consistent (regardless of whether she has her guns out, direction she is facing), then one has a heck of time controlling the character. I also hate that when you press the side buttons she goes whisking rapidly at a right angle to whatever direction the camera is facing, not in relation to her relative position. Having the camera operate independent of movement (or dependent, depending on circumstances) is confusing and idiotic.

I don't know what to make of your "some males" comment. I never thought that males and females were different in how they wanted to control a character.

One other point: It appears to me that the gamers who use consoles are more satisfied (as a whole) with the controls then the pc gamers. I just went around the internet to different forums and this argument about the TRL controls is common all over. Perhaps the controls were developed for consoles/gamepads first, then mapped to the pc controls. I don't know or follow these things, I just play the games.

I want to thank you Astara for being there to take my punches, and jar me with your own in return! I am sitting in my corner now, my trainer holding an icebag to my swollen eye. :nut:

portland bill
5th Jan 2007, 14:32
And Portland Bill, you mention the reason I was most upset at the game. In the original game, the camera always was behind Lara unless you looked around with the look key. The camera in TRL sucks (the best way to describe it). If the coordination with movement is not consistent (regardless of whether she has her guns out, direction she is facing), then one has a heck of time controlling the character. I also hate that when you press the side buttons she goes whisking rapidly at a right angle to whatever direction the camera is facing, not in relation to her relative position. Having the camera operate independent of movement (or dependent, depending on circumstances) is confusing and idiotic.



Once again, i have been out classed by someone more eloquent in the English language than me. Your comments says what i have been trying, but failing, to say.

Soemone PLEASE COME UP WITH A PATCH TO KEEP THE CAMERA IN A CONSISTENT POSITION

floydthebarber
5th Jan 2007, 15:03
More eloquent, nahhhhh. Heck, I think and type rapidly, and only after editing does it vaguely appear to be English. :scratch:

I am presently just entering Natla's Mines in the original Tomb Raider. I can't tell you how much pleasure it is to play it after 10 years, and after finishing the control-deficient TRL. The original game's area is so vast compared to TRL, I had forgotten how much larger it was. And you know, that even though graphically it shows that it was created over 10 years ago, it still looks pretty good at the higher resolutions using Glidos. When I enter a level, the memories come back and slowly I start to recall where to go. Sometimes I forget completely, and I am thankful for those moments.

And concerning a patch for TRL:
I don't think a patch would suffice, it would seem to me that it would require a lot more than that to correct the camera. It would probably need a complete reworking of the game and I don't think that's going to happen. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

rekrul
27th Jun 2007, 03:43
They are difficult to use and non-intuitive.

I disagree.


For one reason -- I don't think it is as realistic. People don't usually walk backwards

You hang a picture on the wall and want to see if it's straight, or how it looks. Do you; A. back up a few steps? Or B. turn 180 degrees, walk away from the wall, then turn 180 degrees again so that you're facing the wall?


The old controls were (are) very non-intuitive. People don't move like that.

I beg to differ. If you're looking forward and you want to walk to your right, do you instantly start moving right at a 90 degree angle, or do you turn right and then start walking forward?



Another way to look at it: the movement in the game is the same as the directions the arrow keys point on the keyboard. In the 3rd person perspective, you have to filter all direction keys through a level of indirection. If lara is facing you, then right becomes left and left becomes right. If she is facing to the side, then right and left arrows become forwards OR backwards depending on how she is facing.

Which is why fixed camera angles SUCK!

When the camera stays behind her, up will always make her move forward, which will be away from you. Yes, the earlier games had camera problems that often placed the camera side of her, or even in front of her at odd times, but they should have fixed the camera problems, not completely changed the controls.

Look at the Max Payne games. You steer and aim with the mouse, but movement is through the keyboard. Yes, pressing left and right makes him move left and right, but Max is always facing away from the screen and pressing up will always make him run forward. This is because the camera is fixed behind him so you can always see where you're going.


It's not intuitive to press forward and have the character on the screen move in a random direction based on "her" perspective

And how is it intuitive to have all of the directions change based on the camera angle? Let's say that I'm standing in the middle of a room and I want to examine something on the right wall. I press right and Lara runs right. Ok, now if the camera is positioned behind her, the right wall is now forward. Let's say that I want to check something on the left wall for a second, so I press down. Now with the camera behind her again, I'll need to press down to get her to face the camera and run back in the direction of the right wall. Wait a minute, a second ago I pressed down to make her run to the left wall, but now I need to press down again to make her go back to the right wall? How is that more intuitive than turning until where you want to go is directly ahead and then pressing forward? Try it in real life. You'll find that the turn and then go forward method is the realistic.



With the old controls, I have to first -- look at the direction Lara is facing, then add my movement direction (the keys) to her current 'location' as adjusted by her current direction. If she is faced off to one side or the other, forward movement becomes less precise, as we can't see exactly what she is looking at.

Which is why third person action games should NEVER have fixed camera angles. Also, the camera should account for things like walls and small enclosed spaces, always remaining behind the character. The only exception to this would be in situations where putting the camera behind the character wouldn't give you a proper view of the surrounding area, such as if you're crawling along the ceiling. Try playing Heavy Meta FAKK2. In many ways it's similar to the Tomb Raider games, but it doesn't have TR's camera problems.



Imagine if you had to jump to 1 of two targets -- one lying at 85 degrees from vertical, the other lying at 95 degrees. If she is faced to the side, can you tell if she is facing at 90, 85 or 95? From the side that's nearly impossible for most people to see -- but move the player in right behind her -- they can instantly see where she is headed. Then pressing forward takes them there. :)

That's a camera problem, not a control problem. If the camera remains directly behind her, you'll always be able to see exactly what she's looking at and which way she's headed.


TRL was my first TR. I've gotten TR5 &4, but they are difficult and tedious to use/play. Besides the feeling that I'm controlling a robot, the program crashes are disheartening. I'm glad TRL is the way it is -- if it had been like it was, I probably would have quickly shelved it as "too much work, not enough fun". :(

I've played through the first six Tomb Raider games, plus all the add-ons, like the Gold editions, and apart from the stupid fixed camera angles in the last three, I never had any problem controlling Lara. I often wished for better camera control, so that it didn't end up side of her, or in front of her in small spaces, but the turning and movement was fine. I didn't even mind the differences that were made to her movements in Angel of Darkness, with the exception of her combat moves. Hand to hand fighting was just a random, button mashing afair and trying to get her (or Kurtis) to move reliably with guns drawn and an enemy visible was a nightmare!

I played the demo for Legend on an Xbox 360 when the game first came out and I couldn't deal with the controls at all.

You might say that I just need time to get used to them. Well, I recently played through the old Spider-Man game that uses camera-relative controls, and I can't tell you how many times I ended up dying (and having to replay levels thanks to the idiotic checkpoint save system!) because of those stupid controls. I want to run left, so I press left, stop for a second, the camera swings around behind him and now I need to press up to keep going in the same direction that I was going just a few seconds ago. Wait a minute, what direction was the door in again? I'm on the wall, so pressing up makes me climb up, but now I'm on the ceiling and pressing up makes me move away from the camera and he goes back to the wall. Once there, up goes up, so he goes back to the ceiling!!! ARGH!!! I ended up playing the entire game by pressing left/right then waiting for the camera to line up behind him so that forward would make him run in the direction he was facing. What a pain in the a$$!