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tomb_raider_obssesed
8th Apr 2006, 22:04
SO THIS SHOULD BE A MESSAGE FROM ALL TR FANS TO EIDOS CD AND CRYSTAL DYNAMICS. Just redirect your thoughts to this thread

If there's any chance than let's try it. It's clearly that beside the graphics, the storyline and the fact that we have more nature in some levels and a short ice level the game is a total failure :( .

So maybe EIDOS, CORE DESIGN and CRYSTAL DYNAMICS will visit this thread [-o< ...

Now it's time to say beside what you hate about Tomb Raider Legned, what you liked and what it didn't had so it could be the best TR.

For me I can say:
What I liked:
-The graphics are almost perfect. I really apreaciate your work. It couldn't be better.
-The slow-motion parts in the fight or when you throw them forward with the crouch\roll button is very cool:D.
-The changes that have been made to Lara. Nice!;)
-The checkpoint sistem.
-The storyline is interesting. It could be a little better but is very nice.
-The ambiance (birds, waterfals, sightseeing, temples, climbing walls, interacting with objects, and all what is related to nature) makes this game come back to the real TR atmosphere.
-The interactive cutscenes. That is something original. Nice I can say. But I think it would had been more fun if it just changed the game path if u missed or chose another way than showed. Like if you didn't caught the Ghaly Key and U had to go after it.
-It had very few bugs
-As I said before, the nature and the ice levels are great. Just like the temlples. It was great to see all that again BUT

What I didn't liked:
-There was very few creativity :mad:. No puzzles. Or very simple ones. The hardest one was the one from the mansion, and it was easy.
-Speaking about the mansion, it was really boring just wasting time inside it. Untill now all the fun was outside with the obstacle curse, the maze and so on. And when you enter some rooms it should just enter normaly, the "cutscene" of opening and closing the door makes it look like the Harry Potter game :-&
-On the hardest dificulty it was very easy. The "mercenarys" are very easy to kill and the bosses to. Exept for Amanda in the last level I had no problems. They just stare at me and are waiting to be shooted. Only the greandes and the dogs are a little more efective but not enough. I mean, when they shoot and they hit me is like a miracle, the did this just a few times 9 or 10 time in the whole game. When they are 10 or 11 around me how come that they all miss me?:mad:
-To many tight paths that go directly to an end. No chosing witch way to go, no action, just running forward, killing some "mercenarys" and there goes all the action.
-The temples are very nice but the same. On the inside they have nothing interesting. The one from Nepal was the nicest and it just had a BIG Budah. Anyway it was almost identical to the one for TR 2. The one with the monks. Tha main hall looked exactly like the one from Nepal. And the Temple from ghana could be compared to the underwater pyramid from TR 4. So even if they looked great a little more creativty would make them the best.They all should have hard puzzles inside.
-As you got used because everybody said it already, the game is too short. And it doesn't finish with a real end :rolleyes::confused:.
-Some nice parts that I saw in the first trailers werent in the game. What happend to that ones? I mean there were a lot. And they looked nice. Why did you gave them up?
-And it was very nice in the TR4 when you got served with a beautifull cutscene after hard work . I know that the graphics are almost perfect but maybe the real cutscenes should be like some movies :rolleyes: and bigger just like in TR 2 and TR 4. Then it was a big pleasure watching a cutscene.
-And the thing that bothers me the MOST is that: first enemys disapear afther they die =(( is very unrealistic and second beside the fact that there are hints everywhere all the interactive things are as shiny as possible, U can see them from a mile. It makes it too easy. I stayed about 15 minutes at the underground church (england) to fiugre out that i had to use the grapple to jump from a pole to another one because there was no hint. And i liked that, it was better.

I think that this is all what I have to say. So it's your turn. Let's hope (beg) that Eidos, CD and Crystal Dynamics will visit this thread so tell them all what you think that could help them make a fantastic Expansion Pack for this game. Or at least for a great GREAT TR 8.

Core Fan
8th Apr 2006, 22:10
i just want a challenge
nothing more
nothing less


and by a challenge I dont mean more bad guys with heavy armory
.... I mean PUZZLES, tricky jumps and all that jazz

EviLSidE
8th Apr 2006, 22:28
I hardly doubt that someone form "EIDOS CD AND CRYSTAL DYNAMICS" will visit this thread or do something about us fans...
But after all, hope dies last...
I'm not going into details.I just want to say that I waited more than 1 year for this game, spent a lot of money bying it and what do I get in return???Finishing the game for less than 9 hours...
I agree that the graphics are more than perfect but sometimes not the graphics make the game a "Legend"...

Core Fan
8th Apr 2006, 22:37
I hardly doubt that someone form "EIDOS CD AND CRYSTAL DYNAMICS" will visit this thread or do something about us fans...
But after all, hope dies last...
I'm not going into details.I just want to say that I waited more than 1 year for this game, spent a lot of money bying it and what do I get in return???Finishing the game for less than 9 hours...
I agree that the graphics are more than perfect but sometimes not the graphics make the game a "Legend"...

They do check these boards
I think now more than ever!

so lets throw the criticism in their face! :D

FrozenFire
8th Apr 2006, 22:41
I absolutely disagree with you on that "the game was a total failure", but this thread is a good idea - if people can keep mindless ranting or spam at a minimum - and I will gladly contribute to it.

So here is what I liked about Tomb Raider Legend:

+ nice controls on gamepad and keyboard with more fluent movement
+ slow-motion and special moves in combat
+ more intelligent enemies (throwing grenades and stuff)
+ absolutely beautiful graphics even without next generation...
+ ...that run smooth on max. details on older cards like my GeForce 4 ^_^
+ a bigger Croft Manor to explore
+ great variety in gameplay, not too much of the same thing at a time
+ good and spectacular level design
+ insane amount of unlockable outfits
+ breathtaking music score
+ passionate voice acting
+ ability to pick up any weapon
+ added realism in how much Lara can carry
+ fair checkpoint system that makes saving unnecessary
+ Lara's characteristical humor and attitude remained untouched
+ innovative ideas like the interactive cutscenes
+ the magnetic grappling hook as multi-functional tool
+ the personal light source as replacement for the torches
+ easy to use interface and comfortable to control
+ well-hidden secrets
+ nice boss fights that actually can be done without trying many times
+ interesting storyline
+ high amount of unlockable content
+ physics-based puzzles
+ little details like moskitos in the air, wet clothes that dry, birds that fly away
+ beautiful DVD cover artwork!

And what I disliked about Tomb Raider Legend:

- much too short as a whole
- Lara looks like a slut in that skimpy Tokyo dress
- health going back to full after death and no consequence when you die
- not enough different (animal) enemies!
- riddles too easy, even without help of the binoculars and Zip
- next generation mode not optimised for the majority of PC hardware
- next generation effects not customisable individually
- the direct move from a location to the next without a longer introductory or closing cutscene
- no shooting range or motorbike track in Croft Manor
- a few graphical glitches with missing textures or visible transitions of textures

My verdict:

An awesome Tomb Raider and entertaining game that was over too soon. But I appreciate the "quality over quantity" philosophy of the developer.
Looking forward to the next game! :thumbsup:

wgell
8th Apr 2006, 22:42
Yes a thread that Eidos and CD might just read like this is required.

I liked...

The new look Lara
The Controls
The graphics

I disliked...

Stupid end of level bosses that belong in games back in the 1980s. (Please stop putting these boring, repetitive , idiotic, unimaginative, abominations into games! PLEASE!)
The total lack of necessary exploration.
The total lack of puzzle pieces that necessitated that exploration.
The stupid interactive cutscenes. (cutscenes are when I drink my tea and eat my biscuits man!!)
The infuriatingly annoying and out of place radio communications with the two stooges.
Far too much combat in one place and very predictable. In the old games you never knew when something would come at you. With this game you see the bad guys and you know it's guns time. Yawn.
No puzzles to speak of.
The complete lack of anything even remotely scary.
The complete lack of any kind of sense of trepidation or suspense.
The complete lack of any kind of surrealism.
The persistant inclusion of control tips and instructions all the way through the game? Made even more annoying when in some sections there were undocumented controls (forklift etc) that got no on screen prompts when they would actually have been helpful. Duh! Doh! AAARGH!
Guns with the effective range of pea shooters and big red targets to shoot at.
Linear levels that might as well have had big signs saying THIS WAY LARA all the way through and others saying SHOOT THIS and PULL THIS.
Trying to turn her own home into some sort of level instead of a free and open training area. Erm..hello..this is her home? What kind of stupid sense does it make to have some of it locked off from her until she collects some thingies.
The inclusion of costumes that can be "unlocked". I mean come on is this a doll we're having to play with? This will just encourage the teenage girles even more fur gawdsakes!
I could go on.....

susan
8th Apr 2006, 22:55
What I'd like most of all is a Tomb Raider game. Please stop focusing on Lara Croft.

Intelligent gameplay
Design the gameplay to be intelligent. Make the environments look intriguing and then reward that intrigue by giving them different depths of discovery.

The way that TR1 (in particular) is crafted is sublime. Like Palace Midas which opens in a pool. You climb out and then have numerous pathways to choose. There's no arrow or shiny bit saying "Oi you, over here". Not all ways are open yet, but you glimpse a walkway above you, doors and locked gates leading to tempting gardens, hidden halls, rocky outcrops, climbable ceilings and blocks, spread out over a vast and multi-level environment.

Gradually you find your way through, discovering hidden rooms, deep green pools and artifacts that lead through to...Ah, that bit!...the bit you've being trying to get to from another way for the past two hours. It's beyond a simple maze in structure, or linear route of activity, it's a rewarding puzzle in 3D and each new bit revealed is unexpected and feels original. A pool here!, eek lions!.

Striking, thrilling and unexpected gameplay
Striking set pieces and just more of the unexpected please. Like in the old games - a dinosaur, a centaur, a sunken shipwreck, an underground station, and so on. Don't copy these, they've been done now, but something similarly thrilling.

Length over 20 hours
A length similar to the previous games (except 5 & 6). But filled with puzzles and exploration, not waves upon waves of bad guys to shoot at. Don't make it a 3rd person shooter.

Surprise, suspense, puzzle, explore
Basically, it should be a continous feeling of not knowing what is to come next. Whether that's kill something, puzzle it out, environment type, whatever. There ought to be continuous surprise and suspense.

The previous TR's were very good at providing the unexpected time after time, that's what made them so good. I used to fear moving on in the game sometimes because who knew what was coming next.

lllll
8th Apr 2006, 23:00
Fully agree with Susan, very well worded *applauds*. You described EXACTLY what the real TR is about.

movieman
8th Apr 2006, 23:01
The inclusion of costumes that can be "unlocked". I mean come on is this a doll we're having to play with? This will just encourage the teenage girles even more fur gawdsakes!

I doubt it's teenage girls who are trying to find the secret secrets that will unlock Lara Croft's lingerie collection :).

jules
8th Apr 2006, 23:06
I have to agree with Susan too.
Plus one more thing ....Give us back the old control system, why fix what aint broke!!!!! It was a good original system that worked fine for us hard core Tomb Raider players.

tomb_raider_obssesed
8th Apr 2006, 23:16
I don't totaly agree with jules but he is right about some parts.
With the old system you had all the buttons near your hand you shouldn't use your feet too :p and you couldn't look in all parts at the same time so there was more suspans.
But the new controls are great anyway. I don't know what to say about this but if u already made this change I don't think that it's wise going back.
You shouldn't go back with anything, just improve. Make it longer and much much better. Because from all what I saw until now there is nothing to change, just add-on.

jules
8th Apr 2006, 23:23
I don't totaly agree with jules but he is right about some parts.
With the old system you had all the buttons near your hand you shouldn't use your feet too :p and you couldn't look in all parts at the same time so there was more suspans.
But the new controls are great anyway. I don't know what to say about this but if u already made this change I don't think that it's wise going back.
You shouldn't go back with anything, just improve. Make it longer and much much better. Because from all what I saw until now there is nothing to change, just add-on.

Hehe i'm a 41 year old lady not a man!!! NVM:p

FrozenFire
8th Apr 2006, 23:23
I also think that the old controls are kinda based on the squares all older TR levels were built of.
If you work with the TR Level Editor you know what I mean. When Lara runs one step forward it is exactly one square in the editor and so on...

Now with modern graphics and many rounded objects you can actually climb, this square system isn't compatible, so probably that's the reason the old controls wouldn't work anymore either.

I also prefer games where I have some control over the camera and can look at your character from different angles.

wgell
8th Apr 2006, 23:50
I doubt it's teenage girls who are trying to find the secret secrets that will unlock Lara Croft's lingerie collection :).

I wouldn't be so sure! :)

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 00:17
I have to agree with Susan too.
Plus one more thing ....Give us back the old control system, why fix what aint broke!!!!! It was a good original system that worked fine for us hard core Tomb Raider players.

You have got to be kidding! If Crystal Dynamics should be sure of one thing and one thing alone, its that the old control system was just that, old.

Move on mate, we don't wash our clothes in the stream anymore because we have washing machines. Washing machines are alot better than the stream. The new control system is 21st century, its infinitely better than the previous Lara who, despite being an athlete could not turn around unless she rolled over first or turned veeerrry slowly by pigeon-steps on the spot. It was archaic and geriatric. We live in a far better gaming world now. I implore CD to not, ever, under ANY circumstances take a step backward like that (pun intended)

If anything is going to kill the franchise, its returning to the awkward 32bit era control system.

konichi-wa
9th Apr 2006, 00:33
+controls
+unlockables
+re-playability
+the mansion
+the interactivity with zip and allister
+lara's new look
+she get wet and dirty
+the puzzles
+the camera(it could have been better but it did a pretty good job)
i don't really have any negatives, but i might come up with some, although i do here the timetrials are hard

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 00:49
SO THIS SHOULD BE A MESSAGE FROM ALL TR FANS TO EIDOS CD AND CRYSTAL DYNAMICS. Just redirect your thoughts to this thread

If there's any chance than let's try it. It's clearly that beside the graphics, the storyline and the fact that we have more nature in some levels and a short ice level the game is a total failure :( .


Nice objective opinion there:thumbsup: You certainly can't be accused of trying desperately to steer this thread in the direction of your own personal problems with the game can you?

To say its a total failure, is just a teensy weensy bit over the top don't you think? especially when you're trying to give us the impression you want to create a balanced objective thread for the better of future games in the series.

My message to Crystal Dynamics would be to ignore this thread. They've done a magnificent job with the TR franchise, which.. as it is possibly the biggest and most popular franchise in gaming history, can not exactly have been an easy task to take on.

Well done CD, please move on to the next thread.

movieman
9th Apr 2006, 00:49
Stupid end of level bosses that belong in games back in the 1980s. (Please stop putting these boring, repetitive , idiotic, unimaginative, abominations into games! PLEASE!)

Yes, agreed: boss fights have become so lame... in fact, the whole third-person view system is really not conducive to gun-fights in the first place. I'm only about half-way through the game and the overuse of shooting is getting a bit annoying: if you're going to turn the game into an FPS, then you should give us a usable first person shooting view!

Also, please don't make her put her gun away after a few seconds without shooting. I pull a gun out, hide behind something, wait for a guy to move into position where I can shoot him, then press fire and she's just put the gun away! You really shouldn't do things like that unless the player tells you to.


Linear levels that might as well have had big signs saying THIS WAY LARA all the way through and others saying SHOOT THIS and PULL THIS.

Yeah, it would be nice if there were more ways to get through the levels than following a linear path. Also the flashing lights should probably be restricted to easy mode, or the binoculars.

That kind of links into the 'interactive cutscenes'. It's not a bad idea -- I mean it's better than just sitting there and watching your characters do things when you're not controlling them -- but the way it's implemented with seemingly random key-presses is a bit naff. Would be nice if it could be brought more into the normal gameplay.

Also could 'escape' actually skip non-interactive cut-scenes? The way the game is set up if I die and have to go back to a checkpoint before a cut-scene, I have to go back to the cinematic, press escape, press down-arrow half a dozen times and then press enter. That's a pain.

The checkpoint saving is a bit annoying: for one thing, it means that if I get half-way through a puzzle that will take a while to complete, I can't then quit and go have dinner or whatever. Also, I can't try out different things to see what works and what doesn't, because if I fall off a wall and die I'll be sent right back to the last checkpoint, which may mean five minutes wasted getting back to where I was.

For that matter, could we also have a save system that actually works? When I go to the menu and select 'Save' it says 'Enter to select', I press 'Enter' and all I get is a clicking from the speakers. There's simply no way to save in the game on my system, all I can do after the clicking starts is press 'escape' and go back to the menu.

The camera is still screwy at times. In one part of the Japan level I needed to do a backwards jump onto a pipe that was probably behind me, but it was impossible to actually turn the camera around far enough to see whether I'd moved along far enough to reach the pipe or whether I still had further to go. First time tried the jump I fell off and died because I hadn't gone far enough, so back to the last checkpoint again simply because the camera wouldn't show me what Lara could see.


The persistant inclusion of control tips and instructions all the way through the game?

Yes, it's odd to get the same tips two hours into the game that I was getting two minutes into the game :).

That's probably all sounding a bit negative about the game, but that's mostly because I'm just listing the things I didn't like :). Graphically it's good, the controls are generally much better than the previous games, I think the costume idea is quite a good one even if others don't, and there are some interesting puzzles, if not terribly hard ones so far. I think the new engine has probably set up the basis for another six games to follow this one, but aside from rethinking some of the level designs the next game should probably have some more complex puzzles and more levels.

Personally I thought 'Tomb Raider' had been killed by 'Angel of Darkness', but I think you're successfully revived it :).

laraflames
9th Apr 2006, 01:11
i loved everything!

lllll
9th Apr 2006, 01:25
There seems to be only a minority here who liked TRL....majority is disappointed and CD should take notice if they want to keep on making TR games in the future.

Just read around on the many TR forums and see what I mean.....on this forum people are actually being nice about it compared to those other forums....

dyanburrell
9th Apr 2006, 01:25
Well, finaly that long awaited time arrived. Since the first TR was released, it has been our family tradition to clean up the house, fill the fridge with goodies and drink in preparation for playing the only game that we can all sit down and take part in and enjoy as a family (young and old) - not leaving the house nor stopping, only to sleep for a few hours, till the game was complete.

The whole point of TR to us, was to roam around vast landscapes of magical mystery, working out puzzles, and killing occaisional enemys - with the addition of wonderful inspiring sound to add to the adventure. The shortest amount of time a game ever lasted was 2 weeks.

I got my copy of the game yesterday, and am so dissapointed (along with everyone else in the family), that we havent even finished the jaffa cakes and our first bottle of pop, before the game was over. 10 hours? Whats happend?

Graphics are great, no doupt. But after the first few levels I began to get very board, it did pick up though and began to be more akin to what we expect as TR fans, in appearance at least. Puzzles were more than easy, and virtually non exsitant. The game was very linear, and there was no real need to explore as the route through the game was obvious, it also seemed very disjointed. It just didnt feel like a TR game :-( It seems to me that the game is now trying to be like the film, instead of the other way round.

We all go to bed now... Wondering if what we saw was the end... And after searching the net in hope that there must have been something we havent done, we now know we have done it all. We are not filled with a feeling of elation, as we normally are on compleation of the games, but a feeling of grave dissapointment :-( infact it feels like we havent really played anything.

Tombraider isnt just a game to us... It was something special with a formula that isnt seen in any other title... And I have looked beleive me! Now its like a mix and match of everyother game out there, and I feel its winning formula has been lost. I was dissapointed a little with the last one, as it seemed to be based on games like metal gear solid, but at least there was good game play and some of the original formula in it. This one seems like its been thrown together in the last minute to make a deadline - probably cutting out more than was left in... I would rather wait ten years for a good game, than 3 years for a (very) quick fix.

Taking it back to the shop tomorrow... If you need someone to help out with ideas for making a game with the original formula TALK TO US! THE ONES WHO PLAY IT This one is more of a shoot um up to us, not what TR is about at all.

Dissapointed and depressed
Dyan 43, Darren 21, Chris 18, Peter 56, Wesley 16

lllll
9th Apr 2006, 01:46
Dyan, sorry to hear that, I had the same thing. Me and 2 friends would always play the TRs for weeks and weeks, it was a cool happening and get-together where we would intensly experience mystical adventures, like they were real. In fact we now sometimes talk about those levels of years ago like we actually lived it, lol!

TRL was over before the 3rd pizza arrived and not memorable at all. We first tried to pretend like we really liked it (like some here now do too) but then we all looked at each other and already knew it was not the same....who were we fooling? :(

Legendary Lara Croft
9th Apr 2006, 02:43
what I want? oh well... I just want to tell them how much I am grateful for them making Tomb Raider Legend and for everything they are doing for the fans. Lara looks absolutely amazing, I don't know how much better it can be, but please don't stop making TR games:) Well done boys :D

PS: next time release game in the usa first :p

hierogrammate
9th Apr 2006, 05:00
You have got to be kidding! If Crystal Dynamics should be sure of one thing and one thing alone, its that the old control system was just that, old.
(snip)
We live in a far better gaming world now. I implore CD to not, ever, under ANY circumstances take a step backward like that (pun intended)

If anything is going to kill the franchise, its returning to the awkward 32bit era control system.

Hear, hear! I agree wholeheartedly. The new controls are fine, and far more fluid than the old ones (at least from a PC gamer perspective). At most once could say that there *may* be room for improvement... but a return to the old system? Uh-uh. New game, new story, new bouncy Lara, new smooth controls. Next thing I'll see posted here is someone arguing for a return to text-based games :-P (in my cellphone, maybe :) ).

I, too, believe in quality over quantity, but also expect the next game to be much, MUCH longer. There may be other "flaws" here and there (and I agree with some of the possible improvements listed by others in this thread) but, all in all, it's not a bad start for the new, revamped franchise. Not a bad start at all.

E.

TRfan
9th Apr 2006, 06:02
I havent played the game yet [SPOILERS!!!!!!]:mad:

THere's not much to say really. The fact that people now only want a longer game should be taking as a positive. Now all they have to do is figure out how to stretch the game's length by adding extra puzzles and mazes for the next TR. Easiest way to do that is to make it more difficult to get key items that unlock or help solve big puzzles. Make the human bosses much harder to take down. TR1's storyline wasn't that complexed or anything. It was the puzzles and mazes that mad the game fun, seeing as you hardly ever ran into that many human bosses and when you did, it was like "WOAH who's shooting at me?!?!!?!?" lol

oh and that whole feature that allow you to see what things are active for you or something that basically tells you how to solve the puzzles. See... we dont need that. Had that not been part of the game, it probably would have taken longer to figure these puzzles out. Hints like cutscenes that basically explain what you'll have to do makes the gamer fill a little stupid. I dont know. Ive never liked that feature to begin with.

Take the "second chance" action button thing off. That probably would have helped extend the gameplay had people just died when they messed up.

And the Action cutscene Ive seen in previews just doesnt look like much fun at all. It takes away from that excitement of having a near death experience. That alone would have stretched out the game even more.

And the mansion... is it the same exact mansion?! Anyways... HEY, it seemed like a last minute project. Dissapointed or not, people will still buy the next installment just to see what's new with Lara's house:p People may disagree with me on this one but her mansion was starting to get ridiculous. It's her home, not a bootcamp. I think they should just give her a lovely basement with a shooting range, endurance games for time or whatever.. blah blah blah. Did TR1 even allow you outside? Didnt allow you to do much, either.

I mean... they're back on track with the series from the reviews Ive read. Im sure once they game started become more of a demand, they kinda did what they could to get it out glitch-free. Imagine this game if it had a lot more of roaming time and lots and lots more puzzles and pull a lever, find a key, hop over spikes, unlock a trap door, find another key, push the button, find the door the lever opened, use the key, figure out a puzzle, find a bunch of artifacts to put together to open a door, fight a few animals, use the main key to open a door... da da da... end of level. FUN FUN FOR EVERYONE!:thumbsup:

WaLLy3K
9th Apr 2006, 06:18
The Good!
No pre-rendered cut scenes, everything is done with the same engine that you play on, which is quite different to other games.
Controls where fluent, even if I did have to change around a few keys in options.
Animations where nicely done, everything flows very smoothly.
Performance on the PC without Next-Gen content was superb, to say the least.
Detail in the worlds, models and architecture of the levels was beautiful.
The introduction was very unique, it hit me as a kind of bond film intro but with it's unique feel to it.
The music! VERY nicely done, something I enjoyed a REAL lot!
Motorbike.. the first time we actually get to ride one! :D
Unlockable extras. I feel it was added in to make up for the short storyline, but this is still a very nice addition that would be welcome in pretty much all the TR games.
Interactive cut scenes. This aspect was played out quite well, but left out A LOT of potential, where you could have multiple endings to a level and possibly dictate the end storyline of the game itself!
The slow motion was played out well. None of that spinning around abused matrix crap, just simple barrel roll, smash em and blast em. Just love that.
The manor from the movie. Although I miss the last manor, I like what's been done here. Quite a bit of missed potential here though.
The checkpoint system, saves getting killed in some strange way and not having lost nearly all your progress, just because you forget to save.
Although this should fall under detail, I really liked how clothes actually got wet - this is something that makes this game quite different which is a nice touch.
The PDA was also a nice touch, the information that came on it was quite handy at times.
Although this would fall under unlockables, I liked how you needed to 'unlock' cheats before you could use them, they added to the 'fairness' of the game.


The Bad!
First and foremost, the game was unacceptably short as a tomb raider game, in my highly honest opinion which I will elaborate in the next few points.
I wanted to see LARGER, NON linear worlds which can play out differently due to the interactive cut scenes! Tomb Raider 3 had it right, worlds like Nevada Desert had me stumped for AGES. This is what I want to see!
The puzzles where (TBQH) horse$%@^. They where too easy, WAY too easy, for physics based puzzles. The first three games puzzles where very challenging, which is what I loved.
The AI of the enemys (It looked more like scripted sequences actually) was appauling, it's the same thing over and over. They need to think, assess and hell, even takes risks to make this game less repetitive. Nothing ticks me off more than knowing exactly what to do to take out the bunch of bad guys in a room.
The types of characters you fight (Excluding bosses) was very limited. Hired goon, tiger, hired goon in a different suit, another tiger, hired goon with a different model, tiger, Blah blah blah. More animals I say! What happened to the monkeys of TR3? What about the lions of TR1? All of this just seems non existant, not even getting started on the human type enemys that should be there!
Laras mansion, while neat was very limited. I know she was 'given seperate estates' in the storyline, but there needs to be an outside area. TR3, you had a maze, an assault course, an ATV track (I loved this to no end!), heck even a really cool basement that you could swim in! This was the stuff that MADE her house awesome, not to mention the TR2 scene where you had a shotgun and you needed to defend it, that was awesome.
The interactive cut scenes are a massive lost potential, it's basically "PRESS THE WRONG BUTTON AND JOO DIE NOW!#$%", when it could have been that pressing the wrong button (While you could get killed), can also alter the way you play out the rest of the mission. She goes diving for an edge, you miss, she could fall down to somewhere else and you play a completly different path to the levels finish, how awesome would that be? (Just an example, *hint hint*)
You ditched the inventory!? Although it's much more realistic without this, it's still sad to see stuff like this go. Not to mention how there where no keys to unlock stuff, like previous games. This is the sort of stuff that makes games challenging!
The bosses, too darn vocally repetitive! "HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT, LARA!?". One liners are very annoying, especially when that's all they ever say, mixed with two other lines or whatever.
On the same note, some bosses need good puzzles to beat them, like that chick in TR3 with the staff of green energy (I forget her name), you needed to turn on the power to kill her. This had me stumped for a fair while too!
When on the hard difficulty, we do not need mini cut scenes showing us where to go, this is hard mode, not normal or EASY for god sakes, we're playing it on hard for a reason, for a CHALLENGE!!! This is very important, REMEMBER THIS ONE! :)
Lost potential with the loading screens. It has a quote from what is said ingame, whereas it would have been very neat to have something random for each level (Out of a pool of around 20 or so lines) to be displayed.
What is said over the headset is too repetitive, I don't need to hear the same WOOOHOOOO each time Zip decides to scream when I do a jump on the bike. "I'm glad we have that one on tape!@&^!!1"
I was sad to see that the grapple cord didn't "shock" the enemys. It has an 'electrical sprite' come out of it on inpact, but it doesn't hurt them? :(
Although it was good to see you could shoot out parts of the world, I think there needed to be a bit more of this, more than just "Shoot out some predefined parts of rocks, find the secret/kill the bad guy, move on"
I found it quite 'inefficient' that the game required a little bit over seven gigs of hard drive space, that could have been eased up a bit by having installer options, such as running NextGen content / Music / Whatever from the CD instead of dumping it all on the hard drive.


Overall / Final Notes!

All in all, I really did love the game and the features that I have mentioned already plus more. It wasn't a flop like AOD was, although it simply was too easy, the storyline just wasn't enough for my liking. I certainly missed the whole "Being captured and getting stripped of your weapons" scene, which was a downside. If this had been put in development for at least another half year, I really think this could have been very very good.

I can only hope that these ideas do get across to the right people, as I really have enjoyed the Tomb Raider series, since the beginning. On that thought, it did need some more vehicles, but what's done is done. While still making some notes, I'll add that I haven't added any performance issue bad side things as these can be fixed up in driver updates and game patches.

To put it simply, it's a very nice game but should have been put in development just a tad longer. Since it is so short, it's easier to just rent this than it is to buy it, which is something the developers need to combat by making the worlds larger, more interative puzzles and all that sort of stuff to make the first play-through time at least 25 hours+.

So in conclusion, good game and I hope you guys can really improve next time, so we can be swept off our feet the next time we visit the world of Tomb Raider! http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

-WaLLy3K

RAZMAT
9th Apr 2006, 06:35
agree with susan; though i only played the demo.from what i've seen crystal dynamics does'nt have the TR formula down at all.

sup2069
9th Apr 2006, 06:59
Im still playing the game and so far its alright. Dont flame me if I say something about a part thats latter changed, added in the game.

Liked

-Grahpics are nice. Lara looks more alive with the details to wetness and sweatyness of the hot jungle atmosphere.

-Voice acting is awesome, if only they used the lipsync tech from Valve!

-Animations for the cinematics is nicely done

-Backflips and action moves are alright

Hated

- The guns were absolutly horrid right now, they dont feel very powerful

- Lara can only melee when she has her weapon out. She should know self defense for crying out loud.

- So far I havent found a use for that PDA

-Puzzles so far are truly bad. The only hard thing about the hard diff. is the bad guys at times but even they are cake.

- No whip! All we get is a magnetic tether that only works on metal, bah. Give me a whip like indiana jones baby!

-Shooting lepards in the temple are like God cats. It takes like 20 darn rounds to kill them.

-No choices. TOO linear, would be nice to actually feel like your calling the shots than; go here, follow hall, turn, jump run and fight. Give me freedom!

-Driving the motorbike was a little cheesy. No physics to it, no pitch and roll. Just gun it, dodge rocks and shoot.


So far thats it, ill edit this the further I get in the game.




The types of characters you fight (Excluding bosses) was very limited. Hired goon, tiger, hired goon in a different suit, another tiger, hired goon with a different model, tiger, Blah blah blah

LOL dam! And I thought I would be seeing sharks or bears or something :eek:





oh and that whole feature that allow you to see what things are active for you or something that basically tells you how to solve the puzzles. See... we dont need that. Had that not been part of the game, it probably would have taken longer to figure these puzzles out. Hints like cutscenes that basically explain what you'll have to do makes the gamer fill a little stupid. I dont know. Ive never liked that feature to begin with.


I would agree, kind of reminds mme of POP:sand of time. All of the visions pretty much solved that perticular puzzle, why even play? I remember closing my eyes and spamming the "X" button to skip the visions. It actually worked.
That R.A.D vision i believe your talking about is bad. IT should only be availble for easy in normal and hard it should be removed. I remember RAD vision ruined the demo for me once I figured out what it did.




Take the "second chance" action button thing off. That probably would have helped extend the gameplay had people just died when they messed up.

Or a fix, how about depending on how far ingame and difficult that manuver was, you have to be super quick at hitting the "second chance" button. A fraction of a second off, your dead, quick enough you live.


Fix

The game has much potential. Possibly add an expansion wich fixes up all the problems people hate, but take into consideration the stuff people want to keep!

Rascalius
9th Apr 2006, 07:00
Liked:
Looked GgggrrRRRreat!

Disliked:
Tooooooo many boss levels. zzzzzzzzzz

RAZMAT
9th Apr 2006, 07:04
in AOD lara could punch and kick without a weapon , like a streetfighter game.

-Dizzy-
9th Apr 2006, 08:31
I like it. I think it was a good game and a great new start for the series, but there is some obvious room for improvement.

1) As everyone has already said it was far too short. Seems to take most people around 6 hours to finish the game (without collecting everything).

2) The thing I loved about Tomb Raider was jumping & climbing. I love those sort of games, from Super Mario 64 to Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. I like those games where you just walk into a huge room, and you see where you have to go but the hard part is getting there, which usually involves a lot of jumping and a feeling of danger since you could fall at any moment. A problem with Legend is that these parts seemed far too quick. Some parts seemed as big as previous games, but rather than taking 5 minutes to get through an area it took 1.

3) It was easy. The climbing parts were easy and there wasn't really a feeling of danger like there was in previous games.

4) Boss fights. All seemed quite similar, I'm sure they could easily be improved though, I presume that even the developers have some better ideas for the next game.

5) The sound. Sometimes it was really hard to hear what the characters were saying. I turned down the music & sfx volume, turned my tv way up yet the voices were still pretty quiet at parts.

6) Vehicles. These parts were playable, but nothing special. The handling felt a bit iffy. There was no skill involved either, you just held the A button to go and then pressed R to shoot.

7) The fact that you couldn't skip cutscenes on the first playthrough. Whenever I died it was righ after a cutscene, meaning I had to watch the whole thing again. They should have been skippable after the had been watched for the first time. Luckily it was possible to skip them when replaying a level.

I don't want people to think I dislike the game, I do like it but I'm just simply listing what I feel could be improved. My advice is for the developers to play through the original Tomb Raider, play through Angel of Darkness, play PoP: The Sands of Time. Just capture the same feeling that they give and the TR franchise will defintely get back to the top.

Also, I have to point out. The new puzzles were good, I like the more physical approach. Where you were pushing, pulling and knocking rather than finding switches. There needs to be more next time though.

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 08:56
My advice is for the developers to play through the original Tomb Raider, play through Angel of Darkness, play PoP: The Sands of Time.

Call it just a hunch, or maybe just a wild stab in the dark, but I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe, just perhaps, it might well be the case, that the developers have played TR1.

Of course, its a ludicrous idea really. You know, there you are one day, you get a phone call from Eidos asking you to take over development of the biggest most successful franchise in gaming history, a game that countless millions across the world have loved, and you're asked to put in a year of research first. Its absolutely ridiculous to think they would play through any of the older games or indeed any recently successful third person adventure games.

Its also ridiculous to speculate that maybe an already established developer of third person action adventure games might have already played a paltry little game like TR. After all it only started the genre and was merely played by about 12 million people across the globe.

Good advice mate, good advice!

tomb_raider_obssesed
9th Apr 2006, 08:59
Well ,., FIRST: RAZMAT: she still can kick ;):p you just have to have the weapond withdrawn and press E while near the enemy.

SECOND: Straw Dog this is just a thread for the ones that think that the game is good on one hand but VERY bad on the others, you should do another thread if U disagree ;)

Thanks for posting guys :) , if the thread gets more pages than there are more chances for EIDOS, CD and CRYSTAL DYNAMICS to look after this.

And tha part with "toal failure", k, it was a bit exagerated but it needed to sound disastrous to make U and THEM look at it.

-Dizzy-
9th Apr 2006, 09:03
Call it just a hunch, or maybe just a wild stab in the dark, but I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe, just perhaps, it might well be the case, that the developers have played TR1.

Of course, its a ludicrous idea really. You know, there you are one day, you get a phone call from Eidos asking you to take over development of the biggest most successful franchise in gaming history, a game that countless millions across the world have loved, and you're asked to put in a year of research first. Its absolutely ridiculous to think they would play through any of the older games or indeed any recently successful third person adventure games.

Its also ridiculous to speculate that maybe an already established developer of third person action adventure games might have already played a paltry little game like TR. After all it only started the genre and was merely played by about 12 million people across the globe.

Good advice mate, good advice!
Sarcasm = fun :thumbsup:

I didn't mean just play it. Obviously I think some of the developers would have played it, surely you must have at least thought of that at some point during the fun you had typing out a lame sarcastic reply?

I simply meant find out exactly what it was that made the fans love it. Perhaps they already know but Tomb Raider Legend certainly didn't feel the same.

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 09:05
And tha part with "toal failure", k, it was a bit exagerated but it needed to sound disastrous to make U and THEM look at it.

But it shouldn't be there at all. If you wish to create a balanced discussion (which is the impression you're still trying to give), you need to start it on an unbiased footing. Without loading your intro with lines you hope will influence people. You haven't done that. You are trying to start something you hope will move in the direction of your own gripes.

If you truly want this to be a balanced debate for the possible improvements for future games in the series, then re-write your intro post.

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 09:15
I simply meant find out exactly what it was that made the fans love it. Perhaps they already know but Tomb Raider Legend certainly didn't feel the same.

Do you really think anyone will ever be able to capture that though? really? The gaming atmosphere we all loved that you're talking about capturing is a memory. TR began a revolution in 3d adventure gaming. We'd never experienced anything quite like it. That why its so special in our memories. But the truth of it is that TR is a very dated game now. We've been saturated with 3d adventure games since then. We are very used to the genre. I believe TRL is an incredible effort at recapturing the magic given the current gaming world. I don't believe any developer could have done a better job.

-Dizzy-
9th Apr 2006, 09:23
Do you really think anyone will ever be able to capture that though? really? The gaming atmosphere we all loved that you're talking about capturing is a memory. TR began a revolution in 3d adventure gaming. We'd never experienced anything quite like it. That why its so special in our memories. But the truth of it is that TR is a very dated game now. We've been saturated with 3d adventure games since then. We are very used to the genre. I believe TRL is an incredible effort at recapturing the magic given the current gaming world. I don't believe any developer could have done a better job.
Maybe it's just me, but I think TR 1 is a really great game even today.

I played it back on the Saturn when it first came out, I liked it but didn't think it was that great. I think it's harder for kids to appriciate because of the slow pace.

I sold my Saturn at some point....not sure when, but the last time I played the original Tomb Raider must have been at some point duirng the late 90's.

I bought the game last year and that's what converted me. It was dated, yet I still had a lot of fun with it. I went out and bought all of the TR games after that. So to me even by todays standards it is a lot of fun, it's not just the memories for me since I like it now more than I ever did as a child.

I too think CD did a good job, no disrespect to them but I've played some of their previous games and I think that TR: Legend is by far their best game yet....at least from the games that I have played. All they need to do is make the areas bigger and harder....like PoP: SOT as I said before. I'm not asking for a PoP clone, but just a game that makes your palms sweaty....that's all. I think they should be able to accomplish this with a sequel, I just hope that Eidos doesn't release a sequel every year again as that may have an effect on the quality.

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 09:32
I just hope that Eidos doesn't release a sequel every year again as that may have an effect on the quality.

Now thats a very valid point. That had a great deal to do with the decline in the quality coming from Core, culminating in AOD which though still a good game, clearly showed how Core had lost their momentum with the series and weren't handling the possibilities of next generation gaming very well.

It could work both ways though. Pressuring CD to provide five week long gaming experiences could mean that the quality of content would suffer given how difficult and time consuming it is to produce beautiful interesting games on todays hardware.

I wouldn't disagree that large areas and expansive devious environmental puzzles are a trademark of the TR series. But I still feel CD nailed it with Legend given the lofty expectations of taking on the most loved gaming series of all time.

Straw Dog
9th Apr 2006, 09:43
I'm not asking for a PoP clone, but just a game that makes your palms sweaty....

And thats well put. I won't debate here with people who write stuff like 'OMG ITS SO NOT 733T' But points like this one show that you've put a bit of thought into it.

I agree, the puzzles weren't as pant wettingly tense as some have been in past instalments. Some of that tenseness though can be attributed to knowing that you have to steer a three wheeled truck that can't turn round on the spot without rolling over first through a multi part timed puzzle. And thats not a good thing, its a sign of a dated control system. Perhaps puzzles haven't changed enough yet to take advantage of modern day character control.

movieman
9th Apr 2006, 10:49
Take the "second chance" action button thing off. That probably would have helped extend the gameplay had people just died when they messed up.

Please don't. There was a time for 'extending' games by forcing you to redo the same jump a hundred times before you hit jump on precisely the right pixel and don't die... and that time was the 1980s.

Extend it by adding harder puzzles or more of them, not by killing the player repeatedly until they get it right purely by chance. I should be able to get through the entire game without dying once unless I do something stupid: after all, Lara does.

Another thing I ran into late last night was cutscenes which put me into a situation which I wouldn't have got into myself: something coming towards me which is going to kill me if it reaches me, yet Lara stands there in the cut-scene until it's only half a second behind, rather than run away as soon as she sees it. I really dislike games where the character does something stupid that I wouldn't have done in that situation.

Also, I find the underwater controls a bit clunky. I can see a secret item on the bottom of a lake, know where I want to go to get it, but trying to figure out which of the six different keys to press to actually get close enough to pick it up is a chore: in a more traditional game I'd just face the item and press 'forward', here I pretty much have to move on a grid... forward a bit, down a bit, turn left, forward a bit, turn right, down a bit, forward a bit, oh I overshot by six inches now I have to turn right around, forward again, finally get there.

Cat Valentine
9th Apr 2006, 11:43
I'll start by saying that I LOVED TRL on the whole, it was beautiful, fun, compelling. But was it really a TR game?....maybe it was Lara Croft: Princess of Persia???

And thats my main criticism, alot of work went into TRL and it shows, it looks astounding, sounds brilliant, and plays fluid, but its over before it really even begins :( We never get to explore or feel alone, getting across a room is just that, getting across a room (albeit a pretty one), enter another room, get across it, enter another one etc etc. Its not that gameplay was repetative, its just that it was simple. I really missed collected keys/statues/icons etc then putting them together to open a door and moving forward. The puzzles that were in place were very simple really and didnt take too long to work out. It would of been nicer to have had 4 smaller puzzles that lead to a larger one, just something a bit more Tomb Raider-y and less Prince of Persia-y.

Whilst I loved the motorbike sequences and thought they really fitted in well with the TR universe the gunfights were a bit too often for my tastes. TR isnt an all out action game, its not a shoot em up, and when ur taking down 10 mercs at a time it kinda feels a bit much, and a bit scripted. I do like the idea of all the action in one spot but perhaps that should of only happened twice, not every level. There was almost too much of a pattern and it felt like you knew what was going to come next...which is definitely not what TR is about.

*shrugs* I wont spend any more time writing this as there is alot of other people who have given their experiences and alot for any influential readers to take in. But I'll say I have played every TR game to the end (not a hardcore completionist but enjoy extras and secrets) and TRL is great, it just feels a bit like Part One of Five in a way. But it shows what CD are capable of, it proves that Lara isnt dead and that she's in very safe hands. I'm confident that the next TR game will be a mind blower. CD will suck in all the criticisms and praise and come back with something that is BIGGER and better, but pls pls pls dont take 3 yrs to do it! I would be happier with several shorter TR games (episodes if u will) in a short space of time than a long wait for a big one. But having said that...if you want to remake TR1 in the new engine with a few tweaks and changes here and there feel free :D:D:D:D

Cat 23/female/Englad

AlphaFist
9th Apr 2006, 11:57
I really enjoyed the game, but i can see it being so much better with some minor changes.

Here are the positive and negative points i think about Tomb Raider Legend.

Positive

Excellent graphics and gameplay engine, perfect for this type of game.

Good story and characters. Really liked the flashback level and the details of the plane crash.

Music. Shame the original Tomb Raider theme wasnt played at any point at the game, but at least the experience wasnt ruined by rubbish music.

Laras mansion. Reminded me more of the mansion from the movie, more modern and more puzzles to do.

Unlockable content. Although the actual adventure is fairly short, im happy that there is some replay value in collecting the secrets and doing the time trials. Im actually finding the time trials very challenging so good job!

I really liked the return to exploring remote locations. Peru and Ghana were probably my faveriote levels.

Negative

Lack of variety amongst enemies. The first level in Tomb Raider 1 had 3 different animals to fight, and the third level had frickin' dinosaurs! In Legend i was anxious to see what wildlife there would be. I was disapointed to find only a few Jaguars, Bulldogs and Snow Lepoards. I dont want to sound like a nut-job but i enjoyed seeing all the different animials and mythical creatures in previous Tomb Raider games. The lack of wildlife also made the locations look like they werent that remote, with hired goons everywhere. I liked how Lara climbed up that rock face in Bolivia and gets to the top to find the merc's had driven up in a Landrover!

Puzzles. I thought the puzzles were good, took me a while to solve some of them. I wanted to see more puzzles that took the entire level to solve, like collecting the gears to stop the waterfall in the Lost Valley level.

Too easy, Despite some of the puzzles getting around the levels was easy. It was always obvious which way to go because of the shinny objects and the jumps auto-correcting themselves. Its ok on easy mode, but turn off these guides on harder difficultys.

Zip and Alister. Really added depth to Laras exploring, but i thought it was corny how they were talking when Lara would do an insane move. The reception was a bit too clear for those remote locations eh? ;) I'd really like it in the next game if she fell down a slope and lost her headset so she had to enter a MASSIVE level without any radio chatter.

Waaaay too short. I completed the main adventure in a little over 5 hours. I wasnt looking for the secrets as i was saving them to add to the replay the second time through. I really liked in previous Tomb Raiders where Lara would travel to a certain destination but there would be 4 or 5 sublevels to complete.

Weapons. I know its not a big part about Tomb Raider but the weapons were a bit lame. The range on the rifles and the damage were the worst bits. And know classic weapons such as the Desert Eagle or Uzi's.

I think if CD could implement these improvements the game would be perfect...

- Bigger levels. Much like original Tomb Raiders with one location, several levels.
- More wildlife and mythical creatures.
- Some more weapons
- Maybe add a Quad bike or a Jeep.
- Cutscenes that show how Lara gets to a location, Like a previous post mentioned.
-Make it harder.

Thanks! :D

lllll
9th Apr 2006, 14:20
Call it just a hunch, or maybe just a wild stab in the dark, but I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe, just perhaps, it might well be the case, that the developers have played TR1.


You sure? They seem to have played PoP, Indiana Jones, Never Say Die, some TRChronicles and ended up with TRL :rolleyes:

Cat Valentine
9th Apr 2006, 14:26
Not to add fuel to the fire but the designers did actually produce "a good two dozen" different animals but they werent implemented into the game,

This is from the guide published by Piggybank Interactive, they have interviews at the back with designers etc and a part talking about things that were going to be in the game but taken out during production for a number of reasons :) A shame about the animals I think but the other things they mention (firing guns on ladders/ropes/poles and a wall jump move) arent missed I dont think :)

AlphaFist
9th Apr 2006, 14:33
I hope they didnt take out the other animals because there wasnt space on the disk :( I might have to get the Piggybank guide, sounds like its got a bit of Tomb Raider history in there, and Piggybank are really good for doing extra stuff for guides.

lllll
9th Apr 2006, 14:41
I hope they didnt take out the other animals because there wasnt space on the disk :(

I think that is exactly what caused this all.

They made too much room for the superdooper 25th century graphics so needed to get rid of the stuff we actually wanted in the game :(

Cat Valentine
9th Apr 2006, 14:45
I hope they didnt take out the other animals because there wasnt space on the disk :( I might have to get the Piggybank guide, sounds like its got a bit of Tomb Raider history in there, and Piggybank are really good for doing extra stuff for guides.

Yeah its cool :) there is an overview of Lara's History (as in previous TR games) over 7 pages, then 12 pages of behind the scenes stuff which is mainly text but some big pics too, its cute and interesting to read, there was gonna be a motorway chase scene/part after the King Arthur's Tomb level too but that was dropped due to scheduling concerns. And "memory concerns" were sited as the reason for not having more animals present.

Here's to hoping the next installment wont have these concerns :P

Creativeflea
9th Apr 2006, 14:57
I agree with the general consensus - very pretty, not large enough in scale and not challenging enough for your seasoned player![/B]I understand the need to introduce a whole new generation to the game/franchise of Lara Croft, this game has obviously been geared toward the younger market - hence the ease of game play and levels. However, if I were to get my daughter to play the game for the first time, this one would not be the one I'd chose for her to play.
TR1 was amazing! It was a new era in game play, you will never be able to re-visit that, no matter what you do, however, TR Revelations was, for me, the best one overall - it was huge! I spent hours and hours on it, I got lost in the levels which had levels within them! It was a fantastic game, very much on a par with the first one in that you truly felt like you were taking part in an adventure!
If you could learn anything from whats gone before, then you should review those two. PS3 is just around the corner, if your going to go for it, then go for it on an enormous scale and give us what we want, or just leave it alone! No more substandard Lara thanks - give us the whole package, levels upon levels upon puzzles upon puzzles! That's what Tomb Raider is all about. If you haven't got that yet, you shouldn't be making the game in the first place.