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dhama
5th Apr 2006, 06:31
Here is a question for the tech guys at Eidos and CD. or anyone that knows the answers. There is enough conjecture going on in the forum, so NO guesses please. ;)


What exactly is 'Next Gen' on Legend?

What does it achieve?

Is there a video card available now that takes full advantage of it?

dhama
15th Apr 2006, 21:47
I am absolutly pissed at Eidos for not answering a simple question, but i'm not surprised, why should they.... :rolleyes:

Shocky
15th Apr 2006, 22:29
The standard rendering mode is basically last generation with none to very basic shader usage... "Next gen" is just marketing name for Current DX9 level graphics coded poorly because they don't give a ratz ass about PC Gamers..

There is no single card available that can achieve a stable 30FPS in "Next Gen" mode... Perhaps with SLI/Crossfire its playable.. I don't know.

King_dbm
15th Apr 2006, 23:21
I get a stable 40-60 fps using next gen just fine, 7900 GTX

Shocky
15th Apr 2006, 23:25
I get a stable 40-60 fps using next gen just fine, 7900 GTX

Really? Are those the special nvidia only optimisation then or are they King_dbm only ?

King_dbm
15th Apr 2006, 23:34
Using 84.42. I dunno, In outside levels like the first level, i get 40 fps, in some RARE cases it drops to 35. Inside, i get a good 60, but drops to 50 sometimes, and in some really dark places, with little HRD i get 70 (like king aurther tomb.

Shocky
15th Apr 2006, 23:42
Using 84.42. I dunno, In outside levels like the first level, i get 40 fps, in some RARE cases it drops to 35. Inside, i get a good 60, but drops to 50 sometimes, and in some really dark places, with little HRD i get 70 (like king aurther tomb.

Do me a favour, get to the end of the first level, as you turn that last corner looking over the bridge and take a screenshot with framerate showing.. I just don't believe you . . Also on the second bike level would also be interesting that ran at less then 15FPS for me..

King_dbm
15th Apr 2006, 23:53
Sure, where is a good place to upload them, and how to i post them? I haven't posted pics on forums before.

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 00:22
Here are some screenshots, from the start of three levels to make it easy... I think they show how bad the framerate drops are..

Match them, enable next gen and AA, then post.. If AA gives your a performance hit then post 2 for each, oen enabled, one disabled..

Kazakhstan (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/storage/Pics/FPS1.JPG)
Bolovia (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/storage/Pics/FPS2.JPG)
West Africa (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/storage/Pics/FPS3.JPG)

I dunno where you can uplad them, dont you have webspace from your isp ?

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 00:26
*EDIT*

Ok, so i can't be arsed going to the spots that you wanted, but i loaded up some levels, and went to some spots that were demanding, as well as some spots that weren't as bad, and i'll post a few pics for you to see. Granted, Some places i do infact get 34-36 fps, but they are rare cases, and still playable. On the other hand, there are rare cases i get 70 fps. Most of the time, it's around 40-50. This is with AA off ( i don't think it's really needed with next gen) but with it ON, i get a 10 fps hit, in some cases less, but never anything more then 10 fps, so just - 5 - 10 fps on whatever you see, to figure on AA

Foilage shot
[img=http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/9021/trlss6foilage0dt.th.jpg] (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlss6foilage0dt.jpg)
Some HDR lighting, with out AA
[img=http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/3402/trlss25yq.th.jpg] (http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlss25yq.jpg)
Same HDR shot, with AA
[img=http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/1010/trlss2withaa3qk.th.jpg] (http://img240.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlss2withaa3qk.jpg)
Artic Shot
[img=http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/5247/trlarticshot4zu.th.jpg] (http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlarticshot4zu.jpg)
Waterfall
[img=http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/6703/trlss3waterfall4ke.th.jpg] (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlss3waterfall4ke.jpg)
Large View - NO AA
[img=http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/6597/trlmaxview6vm.th.jpg] (http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlmaxview6vm.jpg)
Large View - With AA
[img=http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/9792/trlviewaa2ig.th.jpg] (http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=trlviewaa2ig.jpg)
Lol, this is with King_dbm drivers :-p

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 00:27
There right at the start of the levels, they couldnt be any easier to find.. ;)

How did you manage to mess up the links?, get in the same spots otherwise its pointless comparing. Also try and use the same resolution, 1280*1024.

puppeteer
16th Apr 2006, 00:34
I get a stable 40-60 fps using next gen just fine, 7900 GTX

How is that possibe I use 2 7800 Gts in SLI and the game is completely unplayable in Next Gen mode?
I don't beleive you play that smoothly.

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 00:34
Link work for me, do you really need me to go look at ALL these demanding areas? I have one of your waterfall shots included. We are talking about general game play here, not "lets find the most demanding spots" I said, for the most part, I get 40-50 fps, those screen shots proove it. Even on that waterfall scene it's 41 fps. What more do you need? I included one AA off, and one AA on shot.

EDIT: I'm going to resize the images so they are more viewable.

puppeteer
16th Apr 2006, 00:35
you don't studder at all?
If i'm sitting still my frames are good too.

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 00:37
Link work for me, do you really need me to go look at ALL these demanding areas? I have one of your waterfall shots included. We are talking about general game play here, not "lets find the most demanding spots" I said, for the most part, I get 40-50 fps, those screen shots proove it. Even on that waterfall scene it's 41 fps. What more do you need? I included one AA off, and one AA on shot.

Match the shots or go away and stop wasting my time.

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 00:38
No studdering at all, smooth all the time. When i first bought the game, I had to do a 360 and it studdered the first 10 seconds, after that, smooth.

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 00:42
Match the shots or go away and stop wasting my time.
Don't be sour because I get better FPS then you, you said prove it, i did.
I just Added to new pics of the most demanding area in the game, that i know of. (one of the ones you wanted to make ss of) One is with AA, the other is with out, Scroll up. However i said before, This doesn't really show my NORMAL FPS through out the game, as i said before, running Fraps, my average FPS ends up being about 41 fps.
I'd also like to add, as i said before, I don't play with AA, i don't think it's really needed in this game, and it's not worth the preformence hit, but in most cases the hit isn't that bad, i'd just rather have 40 fps, instead of 35-30

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 00:56
Don't be sour because I get better FPS then you, you said prove it, i did.
I just Added to new pics of the most demanding area in the game, that i know of. (one of the ones you wanted to make ss of) One is with AA, the other is with out, Scroll up. However i said before, This doesn't really show my NORMAL FPS through out the game, as i said before, running Fraps, my average FPS ends up being about 41 fps.

Argh, Grow up.. I want comparision shots I can save and present.. The West Africa shot is close but doesnt look right.. ..

But yes you are getting a higher FPS then I am but please match the shots as there useless to me otherwise.. :(

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 00:58
Argh, Grow up.. I want comparision shots I can save and present.. The West Africa shot is close but doesnt look right.. ..

But yes you are getting a higher FPS then I am but please match the shots as there useless to me otherwise.. :(
Sorry, you just seem hostil, as I am doing this FOR YOU, and it's wasting my time, as I don't have a lot (I work fulltime). Sorry if i came off rude. Anyways, I posted one of the shots, and tried to match it up, hope it helps. I think it might be your ATI card, you know how ATI and Nvidia are picky about different games, as your ATI is much better in oblivion. Could be dual core aswell, not sure.


How is that possibe I use 2 7800 Gts in SLI and the game is completely unplayable in Next Gen mode?
I don't beleive you play that smoothly.
A 7900 GTX gets better FPS in a lot of cases then 2 7800 GT. In almost all cases actaully. (Not by a lot though)
Look at these benchmarks. First look at this one, and scroll all the way down to the bottom, and look at the 7900 GTX, look at the FPS
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/oblivion_high-end_performance/page5.asp
Then Look at your two 7800 GT's In SLI
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/oblivion_high-end_performance/page11.asp
20.2 (7800 GT SLI) vs 20.3 7900 GTX

Remember, Oblivion takes full advantage of SLI, much more then most games, so i doubt TRL takes as much as an advantage (just a guess though). However, since the FPS is still pretty close, TRL should be about the same. So maybe CPU limited? What is your CPU? is it dual core? Thats my best guess anyway. Probably a combination of all 3 ATI + dual core + bad SLI / crossfire support. this is just an assumption, and could be VERY wrong.

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 01:24
Sorry, you just seem hostil, as I am doing this FOR YOU, and it's wasting my time, as I don't have a lot (I work fulltime). Sorry if i came off rude. Anyways, I posted one of the shots, and tried to match it up, hope it helps. I think it might be your ATI card, you know how ATI and Nvidia are picky about different games, as your ATI is much better in oblivion. Could be dual core aswell, not sure.
.

Thanks for the Bolovia shot, I was just annoyed as you pretty much ignored what I asked you to do and did your own thing.. Also whats you having a fulltime job got to do with this? You think I don't also have a fulltime job ? ;)

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 01:33
Thanks for the Bolovia shot, I was just annoyed as you pretty much ignored what I asked you to do and did your own thing.. Also whats you having a fulltime job got to do with this? You think I don't also have a fulltime job ? ;)

A lot of people don't, but nah, my point was i just could be spending my time else where... because you said (stop wasting my time) I was trying to imply that it was also wasting my time :-p Ya, i did my own thing, I just didn't really know what areas you were talking about, your Screen shots helped.

I'm actaully just kind of happy I sold my 7800 GT, because i was going to SLI it, and after reading the previous posts, i'm glad i sold it and bought a 7900 GTX (cost about the same, sold my 7800 GT for 300 dollars which helped pay for it) So in the end, 7900 GTX cost me 300 bucks :-p

Prometeus
16th Apr 2006, 02:45
I get a stable 40-60 fps using next gen just fine, 7900 GTX

Ok, but you are cheating us, you are using the best graphic card available, i could do the same with that card :cool:

Sumpfmolch
16th Apr 2006, 03:12
10fps vs 26fps @Kazakhstan

that's a huge difference...can you 2 plz post you system specs ? :eek:
did you do some additional settings @graphics card options like AF ?

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 03:12
No, not really. People have been saying that in order to get good FPS you have to have crossfire or SLI, and that high end single cards wont do it. I was trying to adress that statement, i wasn't trying to wave in peoples faces the FPS i get. Also, it might help adress the problem which could be: Drivers, Graphics card, CPU limited, SLI not working correctly. I was just tryin to shed some light on what i got. I'd LIKE to see other 7900 GTX comment on the same FPS as me.

marx1848
16th Apr 2006, 03:13
If I knew how to tell what my FPS is in TRL, I'd tell you

Sumpfmolch
16th Apr 2006, 03:28
If I knew how to tell what my FPS is in TRL, I'd tell you

http://www.fraps.com/download.php

marx1848
16th Apr 2006, 04:55
running 1280x1024 at 75 MHz refresh with all graphics settings set to max, I get a constant 30 FPS in England.

dhama
16th Apr 2006, 08:35
Well thanks very much for the chat guys, all very interesting an all, but it doesn't answer my question.

Now if only Eidos would give some customer care for once, I wouldn't get so damned frustrated. I've done a lot of work here to help other members over the years, but I'm the one that gets treated like a spammer. :mad:

To Eidos, if you don't want me here and don't want to answer my questions, why don't you just ban me and get it over with. :rolleyes:

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 12:03
10fps vs 26fps @Kazakhstan

that's a huge difference...can you 2 plz post you system specs ? :eek:
did you do some additional settings @graphics card options like AF ?

Sure..
X2 4400+@2800MHz
2GB G.SKill DDR500@560
X1900XTX 690/800 CAT 6.4
X-Fi Music
etc..

It's a ATI related bug clearly, very dissapointed with them.

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 15:37
Well thanks very much for the chat guys, all very interesting an all, but it doesn't answer my question.

Now if only Eidos would give some customer care for once, I wouldn't get so damned frustrated. I've done a lot of work here to help other members over the years, but I'm the one that gets treated like a spammer. :mad:

To Eidos, if you don't want me here and don't want to answer my questions, why don't you just ban me and get it over with. :rolleyes:

Do you really expect them to list every single DX9 feature there using and how they implemented it ?

Its the difference between no complex shaders and with complex shaders, Next gen uses SM2.0/3.0 where as the (standard rendering) Last gen mode appears not to..

Try this.... they might help you. .

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/partners/shadermodel30_nvidia.mspx
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjA5
http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=4136&head=1&comments=1

Isnt google great..

dhama
16th Apr 2006, 18:26
Do you really expect them to list every single DX9 feature there using and how they implemented it ?



This is an Eidos forum, What I expect is for someone in the know, to explain exactly what Next Gen is, As far as TR Legend is concerned.

Not sure what you are trying to say about DX9 features? What's that got to do with my question?

Shocky
16th Apr 2006, 18:45
This is an Eidos forum, What I expect is for someone in the know, to explain exactly what Next Gen is, As far as TR Legend is concerned.

Not sure what you are trying to say about DX9 features? What's that got to do with my question?

What exactly dont you understand? What are you asking?

Next Gen in very simply terms is DX9 mode ! Is that hard for you understand?

sup2069
16th Apr 2006, 19:07
Sure..
X2 4400+@2800MHz
2GB G.SKill DDR500@560
X1900XTX 690/800 CAT 6.4
X-Fi Music
etc..

It's a ATI related bug clearly, very dissapointed with them.


Drool...

Nice rig dude. :thumbsup:

Hint on the cost?

Piega
16th Apr 2006, 19:44
King DBM, do you have 256 or 512 MB on your card?

I have one asus 7800 gtx 256 MB. Besides frame rate textures are not perfect. Did you have transparent snow textures in Nepal? I find Next Gen also very dark :( I'm still running 81.24 drivers as they are steady. I can see that some of your screens are very dark too.

Dhama, Next Gen is just a graphical improvement option (at least that is how it supposed to be). The card must support shader model 3.0 to enable it. You get bump mapped textures and more shadows from objects in the environment. This is sometimes very cool like the smashing walls in Bolivia. You see the shadows moving on the walls. You dont get any extra's in the game. When you can enable it there are no options what you want enabled. It is on or off. I think Next Gen is not that great. It looks unfinished and I hope there will be a major update to get it better on PC.

King_dbm
16th Apr 2006, 21:23
King DBM, do you have 256 or 512 MB on your card?

I have one asus 7800 gtx 256 MB. Besides frame rate textures are not perfect. Did you have transparent snow textures in Nepal? I find Next Gen also very dark :( I'm still running 81.24 drivers as they are steady. I can see that some of your screens are very dark too.


512 MB, yes i have transparent textures, but only in a few spots, like the bike level. I have other weird things like, weird self shadows, and flickering black textures on some things.

My specs are:
AMD 4000+ OC to a 2.9 Ghz
2 GB OCZ Plat rev2
7900 GTX (512)
74GB raptor Drive

Piega
16th Apr 2006, 22:06
My frame rate is about 15 to 20 with drops to 1. When I dont move it becomes 30 and it stays that way until I play a few seconds. I have the patch installed (it also deletes the naked titty :D) Maybe I'll get a second card in a few months but only to play Legend is a bit sorry for my money. I have dual core but the patch seem to use that. Here some texture bugs.

Screen 1. Blocky waterfall parts on the left.
Screen 2. Fast flashing pillars (ofcourse not on the pic but you can see there is something wrong with them)
Screen 3. Transparent snow textures and not only on that spot.

I'll bet there are many many more but I have not played Legend entirely with next gen because of poor frame rate. The frame rate is not what bothers me but the quality is!

http://home.hetnet.nl/~piega2/nextgen1.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~piega2/nextgen3.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~piega2/nextgen2.jpg

dhama
17th Apr 2006, 10:40
What exactly dont you understand? What are you asking?

Next Gen in very simply terms is DX9 mode ! Is that hard for you understand?

Obviously i'm asking something you can't answer. :rolleyes:



@Piega. Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. :)

Shocky
17th Apr 2006, 11:46
Obviously i'm asking something you can't answer. :rolleyes:



@Piega. Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. :)

He didnt say anything that hasnt already been said..Actually he didnt add anything..

First of all it increases polycounts on many objects in the game. Second it introduces normal mapping on everything - that doesn't sound like much, but realize you're essentially doubling the number of textures in the game. Everything that normally just has a plain old color texture now has that plus a depth map texture. Then of course you need to add in all the complex lighting algorithms that goes with normal mapping.

Of course most of this is done via the shaders thus why it requires a SM3.0 card to run in Next Gen mode..

Maybe you should try reading the links I posted.


__________________

Sumpfmolch
17th Apr 2006, 12:03
Of course most of this is done via the shaders thus why it requires a SM3.0 card to run in Next Gen mode..


hm the "gold versions" which was sent to game magazines for their reviews allowed next gen with shader 2.0.... ;)

Shocky
17th Apr 2006, 12:37
hm the "gold versions" which was sent to game magazines for their reviews allowed next gen with shader 2.0.... ;)

Both are capable of the same visuals, SM3.0 is just easier for developers..

Sumpfmolch
17th Apr 2006, 12:39
Both are capable of the same visuals, SM3.0 is just easier for developers..

right but programming next gen with SM2.0 and then disable it in the release version is :confused:

Shocky
17th Apr 2006, 12:51
right but programming next gen with SM2.0 and then disable it in the release version is :confused:
Well thats their choice, retail requires SM3.0.. that doesnt mean SM2.0 based cards arent capable of the same visuals.. But I agree, if they have a SM2.0 path already then they should let people use it even if it is unplayable.

dhama
17th Apr 2006, 20:23
He didnt say anything that hasnt already been said..Actually he didnt add anything..

First of all it increases polycounts on many objects in the game. Second it introduces normal mapping on everything - that doesn't sound like much, but realize you're essentially doubling the number of textures in the game. Everything that normally just has a plain old color texture now has that plus a depth map texture. Then of course you need to add in all the complex lighting algorithms that goes with normal mapping.

Of course most of this is done via the shaders thus why it requires a SM3.0 card to run in Next Gen mode..

Maybe you should try reading the links I posted.



It was the first I saw of anything.. I havn't the time to trawl all posts. But Thanks for adding some info.

sup2069
18th Apr 2006, 00:52
Well thats their choice, retail requires SM3.0.. that doesnt mean SM2.0 based cards arent capable of the same visuals.. But I agree, if they have a SM2.0 path already then they should let people use it even if it is unplayable.


If they did that, then you have threads on people complaining about the lag on next gen, running Sm2.0 cards. I guess they felt it was better left off since they weren't going to support it on nextgen.

Valentina
31st Dec 2009, 16:49
Is the 'Next Gen' feature compatible with NVIDIA GeForce 8800? With drivers up to date.

I have Windows 7, 64bit (if it matters)

I had the feature enabled from the begining, and it was working ok ( it was 'stucking' from time to time, but it was playable), but then when I got to Kazahstan the gane froze and crashed to desktop.
Now I'm playing the game with 'Next Gen' disabled.. but since I got the taste of it, I want it back! :P and working! :)

Is that possible? If so, how?

Thanks for your answers.


p.s. which DirectX should i choose from this list? http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/resultsForProduct.aspx?displaylang=en&productID=9C954C37-1ED1-4846-8A7D-85FC422D1388

I don't remember exactlly which one I chose, but I did install one of them..... :)