PDA

View Full Version : Lara's New Origin and other revision.



meznu
30th Mar 2006, 02:41
Here's my two cents (actually more like $.50 ^_^), and I wonder what others think.

I loved the original story: "Lara's interest in archeology was sparked at an early age, but her confinement to the upper society to which her parents belonged prevented her from actively taking up the profession. (I don't remember any early interest in archaeology from the original game. I think this bio has already been altered for Von Croy.) All this changed when, after a skiing trip in the Himalayas, her plane crashed and Lara was left to fend for herself as the sole survivor. The experience altered her life completely and she began to travel the world, learning about the ancient civilizations of the past. As a result, she was disowned by her father, Lord Hensingley Croft, and she began to work as an archeologist for hire, acquiring artifacts and rare treasure for some of the most wealthy collectors in the world." (from Wikipedia, sic). I liked that she was this posh little deb who had a life-changing experience that kind of "woke her up."

I *hated* the Werner Von Croy crap. I didn't like the idea of Lara having a mentor. I really believe in Lara as a loner, but I've warmed up to the idea of her having friends and a staff. Despite the movies' flaws, I really liked the character interaction with Jolie and crew in the films. It gave Lara another dimension without giving too much away. I've seen some people complaining in other threads that the Legend team are un-making her story and they are angry that the team is throwing out her "authentic" bio. On this I have two points: (1) The plane crash origin still happens, albeit at a much earlier age. I've come to terms with this and actually think it's kind of progressive. Now instead of thinking of Lara as having a "Bruce Wayne epiphany" in her early adulthood, I see her as having a "Bruce Wayne trauma" in her childhood. I've always seen her as a female Bruce Wayne - priveleged, but deeply traumatized, with a need for her life to be about more than the wealth she was born into. And very, very self-involved. (2) The Von Croy character really usurped the original plane crash story for me. I suppose that technically the crash was not erased by Von Croy, but giving Lara this interest in archaeology earlier in life took away from the impact of the crash as the "spark" that ignited her. (Adding the death of her mother at this point is even more powerful...& Bruce Wayne! *but not in an unoriginal way*) Also, with subsequent games and especially AoD, Von Croy became far too central to the TR mythos for me. If she's going to have a mentor, I'm glad it's her own dad. It keeps it closer to her. Though I miss the "estranged father" thing. This sounds a bit crass, but I'm glad he dies when she's eighteen; it keeps that sense of isolation that I think is the deepest essence of TR. And maybe their relationship was troubled dealing with the loss of her mother in their own ways...I digress. Even with an earpiece, Lara will always be alone. In some ways, the early loss of her mother, the earlier (& more miraculous survival in the wilderness), and the early death of her father (as an alternative but similarly effective separation), leads to an even more alone Lara. And because everything happens when she's so young, it leads to a Lara that might have learned to deal with these traumas in different ways. Yet the spirit is much more in sync with the original storyline than the Von Croy nonsense. Having these things happen earlier in life, she might be, as she seems, less angry (though more troubled?). But she's still very much a self-reliant survivor. Just, now she can deal with working with others and even respect them, as long as they give her space to go spelunking in tombs by herself. I don't imagine any of them really know Lara and her personal demons except maybe the butler. I don't imagine they're her "friends," but rather the whole team is there because of the work they get to do and Lara's ability to fund it. They are all probably friendly and share a certain bond, but it's not TR FRIENDS 90210. That's a maturation indeed from gassy butler antics. I hope I'm not alone in thinking that was moronic, not funny. Even with the Mansion team, I trust that Crystal Dynamics knows that Lara's privacy makes mystery and mystery makes rabid fans. Lara has a darkness we should glimpse, but no one should fully comprehend. I read once that Toby Gard's original concept was a totally crazed psychokiller, but he modified that quickly. Well, Core took her there and killed her, literally and figuratively. It didn't work. How nice that Toby came back to correct the error. There's a pain and rage inside her, but Lara's designers must always remember that she is literally a Lady.

The new bio does much to bring me back to the one I originally loved with the added surprise of making Lara more traumatized, more incredible, and even more likable. I am hopeful that despite some fan pressure, Von Croy and Kurtis Trent have been completely removed from the mythos. Some fans criticize the new team for "badmouthing" the old games. I find that a little unfair. What I've seen from the Legend team only acknowledges what lots of reviewers and fans have observed for years. The creative fire had gone out at Core and Lara's image was being prostituted through mediocre ideas at best. There now, nothing anyone from the Legend team has said has been as bold as that. They're doing the hard work of cleaning up a mess they didn't make for a character they - and all of gaming at one time & soon again, I think - really love. They have every right to be proud and confident. If the game doesn't deliver (which I surprisingly cannot imagine), they'll pay their dues, just like the previous team. Don't get me wrong, either. I know I'm not a game designer. I appreciate the long hours the Core team spent doing what they did, but the products look like "work." Just play them and you feel it. The "soul" just wasn't there for me in the Von Croy stuff. There wasn't that striving for perfection that only comes from truly loving something, which I already see in Legend. It was like, "We wanna make TR INFINITY so we never have to think of another new concept. We're gonna need some kind of interlocking story to justify rehashing. And if we have recurring characters, that means we never have to think of new ones again!" The personality in AoD was an at-the-time-trendy-but-already-dated "grit-grrl." It was not even Lara Croft. None of the choices made for that game seemed to be about developing Lara Croft. They were all about capitalizing the franchise, especially after the second movie. My impression was that they used what they saw in the market, not what they felt as creators. This includes Kurtis Trent, whom Eidos had hoped would develop his own franchise, appealling to men who wanted to be a more macho TR character and women who might like a poster boy like some guys like Lara. This is the biggest reason I don't like him. He was invented *primarily* (if not solely) to make money, not to genuinely propel story, at a time when story and solid game design were sorely needed. I'm not a fool; I know Eidos is a business in an industry. But these money-grubbing choices nearly killed a franchise and an icon that I love. Legend is erasing the past to restore the truth. They enlisted Lara's creator who had stopped being credited by Smith and Heath-Smith who once remarked, "We always mention Toby." Before the films, mind you. To me it's clear that the Legend team's changes come from the heart, as fans as much as producers (& lest we forget - the original creator). And when you do that, you can genuinely smile rather than laugh...all the way to the bank.

I imagine that making the plane crash occur at nine also has a lot to do with responding to Von Croy, getting the *original* crash story *before* him. And I imagine that Lord Croft becoming Lara's mentor also comes not so much from the films, but was only in the films because of Von Croy. I hate Werner Von Croy. But it's nice that Crystal Dynamics respected Core enough to move around what they did. And it's impressive that they're smart enough to not feel trapped or bound by old missteps and went all the way back to the true source in Toby Gard.

On a related but tangential note, I'd like to also add that I'm glad they're referencing the house (hope they got Jolie's electric chair in there! What if you could *do* "bungee ballet?!") and team from the films. (And I think it's cool Zip is black. I appreciate smart black characters, especially Brit, especially in games.) Angelina Jolie, despite pretty bad scripts and overall vision, gave incredible life to the character of Lara Croft. And it seems that the experience of being Lara had a big impact on her as well. I appreciate that they are using what worked and I'm hopeful there will be a third film. Along these lines, before someone else says it, maybe someday Werner Von Croy or Kurtis Trent will be referenced in a TR, but remember I said that I appreciate what *worked*. So maybe not.

CatSuit&Ponytail
30th Mar 2006, 08:19
Welcome to the forum, meznu. :)

I have been enjoying your posts. They are smart, well thought out and a pleasure to read. :thumbsup:

But it's too early in the morning for me to respond in kind. ;) :D Maybe after I've had a pot of tea. :D

munchkin
30th Mar 2006, 09:22
hi, meznu :) good post

beccax

StarChampagne
30th Mar 2006, 16:48
Very interesting :thumbsup: I suppose what people disliked about the changing of the backstory was that Lara perhaps stopped being a rebel and instead had her father there guiding her. Although I never went in for Von Croy in a big way, he was an interesting part of the story. And Lara was a bit gritty in Aod, but that was an attempt to make her more realistic, maybe. I'm not saying that it worked, but I enjoyed the game very much. It does appear to have been a bit of a laboured effort, though, but it was rushed and I think it would have been much better received had it been completed how it was intended. But I digress... Again, great post and food for thought. We all have high expectations for this new game, and I'm sure it will deliver. And I suppose that was some of my thoughts about what you said - but over here it would be about 1.15p I guess :) Anyway, I've said enough. Legend all the way.

meznu
31st Mar 2006, 12:14
Yeah, the fact that Lara's not estranged from her father bugged me a lot at first, too. But now I guess I see her more as rebelling against her own potential complacency in a life of luxury. That's certainly not a new element to Lara Croft, but I suspect (& hope!) that for our seemingly more "well-adjusted" heroine, being in the underground fringe and yet a member of high society is going to become a more interesting and complex highlight of her character. I hope the "new" Lara is as I've always imagined her: deeply personally motivated by environmental issues and significant cultural issues, as well as understanding the true history and nature of our world. Yet, she also enjoys the finest material things, creature comforts, and would destroy anything that stands in the way of what she wants. She has high values, but what she values most is always her own agenda and she makes no sacrifices and rare apologies. This might at times put her at odds with politicians/governments, corporations, and people with power. I see her as a rebel in this way.

I have intentionally avoided reading ANYTHING about the plot of Legend, but it's my guess that Lara is more of a hero than she used to be, although still, I imagine, very self-interested and -motivated. I can't wait to see how the game really plays out. The "darkness" in AoD was over-the-top for me. Lara felt like an on-the-run criminal with rough talk and high school goth makeup and I just couldn't buy it. It seemed like a bad guess at an attempt to pander to what they thought fans might like. (HINT: Fans like it when creators do the work to "down-in-it" deeply understand the truth of a character/license/whatever and then allow themselves to be creative and trust their vision!) Trying to give her an "edgy makeover," they got shaky with the scalpel and cut out her soul. However, if our fresh-faced Legend Lara's not still an underground rebel against conformity and the authorities of domination who does things her own way and has her own demons, I'll be very surprised...and extremely disappointed. What has always made Lara my hero was that she has the means (money, prowess, charisma, intelligence, connections, etc...) to not just talk about truth, but hunt it down. And that's exactly what she feels motivated to do. The problem in AoD (besides hyping up one of the most devoted fanbases in history to pay full price for an almost-finished product) is that Lara was backed into a corner and *forced* to solve problems. What has always really connected with me about Lara is that she already has everything. She could just sit in Croft Manor contemplating her beauty, hosting parties, or shopping online. I like to think she does those things, too, from time to time, but she all-by-herself just wants her life to be about more than that. In our world where it often seems like everything's been discovered and done (& there's nothing left for us to do to fill the emptiness except wait to be entertained), Lara's imagination and motivation are *very* rebellious, and inspiring.

And just to stay on topic...wouldn't it be SO cool if there's a secret playable level (or even not secret) where you get to play as the nine-year-old Lara? I mean, is there ANY other "elementary school aircrash survival" game? She would have to do *everything* differently: no flips, no guns, no fighting, badly wounded... It couldn't just be a skin. But I wonder, too, if playing it would ruin the mystery... I don't think so, if it was done well. Well, no, "well" probably wouldn't be good enough. It would need to be perfect. :p

WraithStar
31st Mar 2006, 19:07
I don't like calling Lara a rebel. I think of her as someone who just does what she likes and deals with the consequences of her actions (which usually involves having to save the world:p). Calling her a rebel seems to imply that she's actively fighting against convention. She does not fight against convention. She is *above* convention and doesn't concern herself with it in the slightest. It's conventional for rich people to have mansions. Lara likes a mansion, so she has one, but not because it's conventional. It's not conventional for a Lady to go tomb raiding. Lara likes to raid tombs, so she does, but not because it's unconventional.

I agree that "Lara" in AOD wasn't Lara. The game is pretty good if you pretend it's someone else who happens to have the same name;) Seriously, I did enjoy AOD (with both patches applied), but I am *very* glad that Legend does not carry over the AOD version of Lara.

What I've seen so far of Legend's portrayal of Lara gives me mixed feelings. In some respects, she seems just like her old self from the first game. In other respects, well, I'm going to have to play the game before I can really comment.


I hope the "new" Lara is as I've always imagined her: deeply personally motivated by environmental issues and significant cultural issues, as well as understanding the true history and nature of our world.

I have a short comment about this. I'll put it in spoiler tags, but it doesn't reference the story. It just says something about Lara's new opinions.

I think that Crystal has made Lara environmentally conscious because she doesn't like killing animals now. They said she expresses regret whenever she does kill an animal in the game, and I don't think there are many animal enemies.

enoch
31st Mar 2006, 19:52
"I hope the "new" Lara is as I've always imagined her: deeply personally motivated by environmental issues and significant cultural issues, as well as understanding the true history and nature of our world."

Meznu, I don't want to sound patronizing and I really think your posts are remarkable but that part just sounds pathetic to me. Thats just to much 'give peace a chance'. Personally I've always wanted to see her as an outsider capable of fitting in when needed or even wanted. I don't quite feel that Core or Crystal (for what little I know) has managed that but I don't think they are trying to hard either:(

I believe that AOD wen't a little bit in that direction and I liked it. She is to perfect and to arrogant (her aristocratic background, I guess...) for my taste and I don't think she appears like someone who has lost and is influenced by that.

However I am still looking forward to game as no other game out there - TR has a special place in my heart and is the reason for my vast interest in the gaming industry. And again - large and well written posts are good for this forum. Keep it up meznu:thumbsup:

meznu
1st Apr 2006, 03:22
I don't like calling Lara a rebel. I think of her as someone who just does what she likes and deals with the consequences of her actions (which usually involves having to save the world:p). ...

What I've seen so far of Legend's portrayal of Lara gives me mixed feelings. In some respects, she seems just like her old self from the first game. In other respects, well, I'm going to have to play the game before I can really comment.

I agree with you 200% WraithStar! Lara is only a "rebel" from outsiders' perspectives. I cannot imagine that she would ever bother to care what other people think about herself. In truth, she's just a self-aware individual. I don't see her as rebelling intentionally. She just does what she wants and takes responsibility. I was just attempting to express empathy with StarChampagne's regret about the lack of familial estrangement in the new bio and chose to use Star's language, which I think is fine in context. Thanks for the "spoiler," too. I know some won't like it, but I think it's great news (and about time)! It has always been my biggest challenge with whole-heartedly embracing the character (:p not that it stopped me!;) ).

Also, I can't be certain our feelings are the same, but the mixed feelings I have are on the one hand, the feeling that I'm seeing the original and true TR Lara again, like you said... Then on the other hand, I see a Lara that seems to have more sensitivity and more of a soul than she used to. She seems to be able to smile and laugh and know people. She's *grown*. I love the original TR character, but she was a bit of a caricature. It was perfect, original, and fresh back in 1996 (remember when "girls with guns" felt like a new idea?:p ), but game characters - and specifically Lara - have evolved since then. As long as it doesn't take away her mystery or hard personal determination, I like that she's more likable. Lara has always had timeless hero potential; not just game star potential, and I think making her care about the world she knows so well takes steps in that direction.

This brings me to enoch's post. You certainly don't sound patronizing, and I expect lots of people would agree with you. There are many who see being environmentally-conscious and socially aware as "pathetic" treehugging malarky. I am not inclined to agree with this position. And it is my opinion that a character with Lara's kind of *huge* appeal (real world), endless resources and more than a modicum of intelligence (fiction) who could go out into our troubled world slaughtering wildlife and stealing human history with no remorse or purpose would be the worst kind of creative irresponsibility. Lara has for a long time been more than a game character; she is an icon. I think that should carry some responsibility, both to the audience and to the character's own integrity. She can't keep being re-re-re-reinvented. Personally, I never thought Lara was *that* callous anyway. From what I've seen, I think Crystal Dynamics have found a balance and a "keeper." There's no truth in a little Green hippie Lara, but when the icecaps are melting (see TheBigAsk.com or the cover of this month's TIME or simply walk outside & notice the weather) and countries with power are stomping on cultures in places they don't understand just because no one can (will?) stop them, I don't think it's "give peace a chance" (Although, truly, what's wrong with peace?) to take action. I cannot see the truth in a person who knows what she knows massacring endangered species and I cannot imagine her sitting idle in her Manor as the world melts away; I see Lara going to war. I think she is the fiercest kind of person imaginable - the person who *makes* it her problem. For her, it is *entirely* selfish. It is only me, the outsider, who sees her as a hero. She doesn't do anything because she feels she must, but because she's not stupid. She understands how life is fundamentally connected and that problems left to fester will find a way into her lovely home. For someone of Lara's intelligence, who has known personal loss and seen the things that she's seen, this is a natural, inevitable progression of character. Lara is a *warrior* who understands more about the true history and nature of our world than most of us. She will kill ignorant people who perpetuate apocalypse or stand in her way. She sees the signs of Earth's destruction. ("This is really happening. We're not scaremongering." Please read the TIME article or check out TheBigAsk!) Like I've said, what makes Lara "my" hero is that she takes it upon herself to *do* something about whatever it's decided she cares about. It's true, she could *just* care about collecting ancient artifacts and being a bad***. But I personally think she's a far more interesting (and authentic) character if the creators choose that what she *also* cares about is preserving *her* planet (not "ours" - HERS), a planet that she has seen more of than most of us ever will - for Lara, it is only ever personal. She does not set out to "do the right thing." And her character's Achilles' heel - absolute self-righteousness and a tendency to solve problems with violence - guarantees that she will always be more complex than a do-gooder poster child. Especially since so many of us think such pursuits are a silly waste of time or that we are powerless to make change, which I find truly pathetic and frightening; I think we need a hero like Lara. And I think it's who she's always been.

meznu
1st Apr 2006, 04:29
...Personally I've always wanted to see her as an outsider capable of fitting in when needed or even wanted. I don't quite feel that Core or Crystal (for what little I know) has managed that but I don't think they are trying to hard either:(

I believe that AOD wen't a little bit in that direction and I liked it. She is to perfect and to arrogant (her aristocratic background, I guess...) for my taste and I don't think she appears like someone who has lost and is influenced by that.

However I am still looking forward to game as no other game out there - TR has a special place in my heart and is the reason for my vast interest in the gaming industry....

Wanted to reply to this separately. I could not agree with you more, enoch! :D :thumbsup: As I said in an earlier post, Lara's dynamic between underground and "beau monde" has always made her fascinating. I also agree that so far, her flawless ability to move seamlessly between the two worlds has not been explored to its full potential. She is brilliantly able to not only fit in, but dominate with grace and style in any and every situation. I am eagerly hopeful that the new game moves closer to highlighting this aspect of her character.

I think it is *essential* that Lara be both perfect and arrogant, though. And I think it is *part* of her loss, not in spite of it. She is, literally, flawless. And also deeply traumatized. Except for her aforementioned tendencies toward self-righteousness and violence, Lara has no weakness. Except the self-imposed solitude born from her perfection. Also, her personal feeling of total isolation can now be even more highlighted precisely because she has people around her to be isolated from - to be acquainted with but not really let in. She's friendly with them and respects them, probably even appreciates them, but somewhere inside she always knows the truth. I suppose it's her other weakness, if you would call it that: She *knows* she's smarter, harder, better, faster, stronger, fitter, happier, more productive... than anyone else. They can never know what she knows. They never see what she sees. She only works with the best, I'm sure. But I'm also sure that she only works with *anyone* because she realizes that she is only one person who can't do everything at once. She knows that she has no equal, and she trusts that the people around her know it too. Yet she's not foolish or heartless enough to pretend entirely that she doesn't need other people. Still, no matter who is there, she is alone in her Manor (& the new one looks more like a castle than just a "posh house" - GREAT!!!). She is alone in her abilities. She is alone in her thoughts. She is alone in her pain. She is alone in the tombs. She is alone in her quest. She is alone in the world. We (meaning all other than her, including her fictional co-stars) are merely audience to her grace. We can never truly understand her. The arrogance is more than a mask - it is the truth - but it is the outer truth that represents her private understanding of her own isolation. She is, in a very profound way, *too* perfect. Untouchable. And what if she did "meet her match?" Would she fall in love or become best friends forever? I doubt it, even if she wanted to. She would *need* to destroy them to prove to herself that she has no equal. She is viciously proud. More than her loneliness haunts her, her confidence that she alone is perfect is a great source of private joy. This has always been one of my greatest draws to the character. It is the true fuel for her darkness. And also her inspiration. She is always suffering. And always dauntless. It is not just her experience of loss; but also due to her own perfection, there is nothing external to gain. And yet she seeks. She searches. She cherishes anyway. She thinks of the whole world as her own, and hers alone.

enoch
1st Apr 2006, 16:19
I have to say; the solitude element is the part I think draws people the most, even if we don't know it. In other words, I think your are right about your point about her absence from her crew.

As for the rest of the post, I think it is an interesting idea that Eidos/Crystal has yet to display its full potential and background of. I don't like if she is being what you think she is. What we know of her prehistory doesn't "justify" her behaviour or attitude. I guess I like to observe a character/figure as someone to interact it with in some way, if you met them in real life. So that they would fit in to the idea as stories as realm big enough for one to take a place in. And I don't think the elements you presented in the post fulfills that but thats just my opinion.

StarChampagne
1st Apr 2006, 16:35
I'm sorry if rebel was the wrong word - I was trying to highlight the fact that Lara was going against her parents' wishes, not for the sake of it, but because it seemed an appropriate word - sometimes people read too deeply into what I say and it blows up in my face :) Moving on... Very intelligent discussion and some great points I had never considered. I can't wait to play the full game.

WraithStar
1st Apr 2006, 18:15
I'm sorry if rebel was the wrong word - I was trying to highlight the fact that Lara was going against her parents' wishes, not for the sake of it, but because it seemed an appropriate word - sometimes people read too deeply into what I say and it blows up in my face :) Moving on... Very intelligent discussion and some great points I had never considered. I can't wait to play the full game.

No problem. Considering how often I mix up words, I'm not criticizing:) (Seriously, my vocabulary is huge but at any given time I can only remember one word for a given concept:p).

@meznu, I think that your description of Lara being isolated due to her perfection is very interesting. I never really sat down to put it into words, but that's the impression I've gotten too. I don't know if it'll be the same in Legend since she's essentially been remade, but it's a definite possibility:)

meznu
1st Apr 2006, 23:08
I'm sorry if rebel was the wrong word - I was trying to highlight the fact that Lara was going against her parents' wishes, not for the sake of it, but because it seemed an appropriate word - sometimes people read too deeply into what I say and it blows up in my face :)

:confused: No need to apologize, StarChampagne. I have the uncomfortable feeling that you feel you've been criticized, which I know is also a very uncomfortable feeling. I'd like to apologize if I made you feel uncomfortable and I'd like to assure you that it was elaboration, not criticism, that occurred. There was nothing wrong with your word choice, as I said in my post. I'm sure that we all understood your point clearly and exactly. Speaking for myself, if I hadn't, I could not have replied. And if there was something "wrong" with your language, I wouldn't have chosen to use it. Just, semantically, WraithStar had a valid point:


Calling her a rebel seems to imply that she's actively fighting against convention. She does not fight against convention. She is *above* convention and doesn't concern herself with it in the slightest. It's conventional for rich people to have mansions. Lara likes a mansion, so she has one, but not because it's conventional. It's not conventional for a Lady to go tomb raiding. Lara likes to raid tombs, so she does, but not because it's unconventional.

This is an important part, evidently, of how WraithStar sees Lara. Hence, she saw it as worth mentioning. And it was worth mentioning, I think, because it reminded me that I see her that way, too. This elaboration added to my clearer, more solid vision of Lara (which is what it seems Legend is all about, thank the stars!;) ). Perhaps it did the same for other readers. You might not see Lara that way; you might see her as a true rebel. I don't, but I think there's room for that (especially the AoD Lara). But even if you do believe that Lara is unconventional by nature rather than by intent, you might use the word "rebel" because it's very easy to make your point quickly understood with that word. It instantly resonates. What both of you said helped me see Lara more clearly and for that I thank you both.:thumbsup: It's a great gift for one's most beloved character of all time, all media, and all genres to become more real (which is why I'm so grateful for the Legend team!) For me, it is significant that Lara indeed looks like a rebel, but in fact is not concerned with what others think and she's not making an effort to be different. She doesn't have to; she's singularly special. We're all essentially getting at that same truth. Or if we're not, we're all definitely talking about the same character whom we all love and are all entitled to see in different ways (especially since she's been reinvinted regularly & we've had to patch lots of holes with our own imaginations up to this point:p ). All of our ideas are worth talking about and none of them are "wrong," right?:D

meznu
1st Apr 2006, 23:38
I have to say; the solitude element is the part I think draws people the most, even if we don't know it. In other words, I think your are right about your point about her absence from her crew.

As for the rest of the post, I think it is an interesting idea that Eidos/Crystal has yet to display its full potential and background of. I don't like if she is being what you think she is. What we know of her prehistory doesn't "justify" her behaviour or attitude. I guess I like to observe a character/figure as someone to interact it with in some way, if you met them in real life. So that they would fit in to the idea as stories as realm big enough for one to take a place in. And I don't think the elements you presented in the post fulfills that but thats just my opinion.

Hi, enoch.:) Yeah, I think her solitude is the thing fans talk about most and connect with the most. I also agree with you that everyone doesn't notice it, even when it connects.

I was a bit confused by the rest of your post, though. What is it that I said that you don't think is "justified?" Her isolation? Her perfection? Her arrogance? Her relationship with the planet? And what in her prehistory (biography?) does not justify these things?

I, like you, try to imagine my favorite characters and my own characters with as much integrity and genuine life as possible. For Lara, that's admittedly difficult since, as I've said, I see being essentially "perfect" as a fundamental part of her character. She is inherently impossibly fantastic. But that's just my opinion, I know. I attempted to give examples to explain that it's because of this conceptualization of Lara that I see her as interacting with others the way she does and being who she is. Likewise, it's due to observing her interactions that I originally constructed her "Ivory Tower" syndrome of perfection/isolation in my imagination. What elements did I not address in explaining this that you would be interested in?

At this point I find I'm very aware that I'm asking you to continue talking about my ideas, which I know and respect that you don't share or like. So, if you're not interested in thinking about them anymore, please don't.:D I thought about not replying to avoid making you feel that you had to think about my ideas, but I was equally concerned that you might then think that I didn't appreciate your feedback or voice. I feared that you might presume that my disinterest was related to you disagreeing with me. I did not want us to get into making presumptions about each other, as I have seen happen in many forums and in many conversations. Suffice to say, I am interested in your response to my questions, but if you are not, there is no pressure to answer any of them. ;)

enoch
2nd Apr 2006, 09:47
Hi, enoch.:) I was a bit confused by the rest of your post, though. What is it that I said that you don't think is "justified?" Her isolation? Her perfection? Her arrogance? Her relationship with the planet? And what in her prehistory (biography?) does not justify these things?
;)


Hi, enoch.:)
Likewise, it's due to observing her interactions that I originally constructed her "Ivory Tower" syndrome of perfection/isolation in my imagination. What elements did I not address in explaining this that you would be interested in?

;)



I guess I mean her arrogance is what I mean. I don't see why her aristocratic history should be that obvious given the loss of her parents at early ages. It looks like she has chosen to live fully being an explorer in spite of her messy family history. Then I would expect her to be more grateful for life and more open towards other people. Less "Ivory" and more..shall we say, oak? To me she seems more like a pop queen with unlimited options (and I do mean unlimited) and not a larger-than-life explorer, and I think thats what I like her to be.:)

Cosy conversing

StarChampagne
2nd Apr 2006, 14:40
:confused: No need to apologize, StarChampagne. I have the uncomfortable feeling that you feel you've been criticized, which I know is also a very uncomfortable feeling. I'd like to apologize if I made you feel uncomfortable and I'd like to assure you that it was elaboration, not criticism, that occurred. There was nothing wrong with your word choice, as I said in my post. I'm sure that we all understood your point clearly and exactly. Speaking for myself, if I hadn't, I could not have replied. And if there was something "wrong" with your language, I wouldn't have chosen to use it. Just, semantically, WraithStar had a valid point:

Hehe no worries. I just didn't want anyone to feel I was making some kind of statement with a word that came off the top of my head. And... well... very interesting points. I agree that Lara should be 'good' without being a tree-hugger; however, I suppose you could argue that Crystal may just have plonked morality in the game for morality's sake. I don't know, but it's good to see Lara's conscience, despite the fact she always seems to be running around taking artefacts (although I think it's for the good of mankind). However, someone once said that she was a little bit dark and evil, shooting people without a care in the world. I wouldn't like Lara if she was completely perfect and 100% sweetness and light. She has to have attitude, without being obnoxious or anything. And I'd love to see how she interacts with both Amanda and Rutland as rivals.

meznu
4th Apr 2006, 02:45
I guess I mean her arrogance is what I mean. I don't see why her aristocratic history should be that obvious given the loss of her parents at early ages. It looks like she has chosen to live fully being an explorer in spite of her messy family history. Then I would expect her to be more grateful for life and more open towards other people. Less "Ivory" and more..shall we say, oak? To me she seems more like a pop queen with unlimited options (and I do mean unlimited) and not a larger-than-life explorer, and I think thats what I like her to be.:)

Cosy conversing


I agree that Lara should be 'good' without being a tree-hugger; however, I suppose you could argue that Crystal may just have plonked morality in the game for morality's sake. I don't know, but it's good to see Lara's conscience, despite the fact she always seems to be running around taking artefacts (although I think it's for the good of mankind). However, someone once said that she was a little bit dark and evil, shooting people without a care in the world. I wouldn't like Lara if she was completely perfect and 100% sweetness and light. She has to have attitude, without being obnoxious or anything. And I'd love to see how she interacts with both Amanda and Rutland as rivals.

Now that I see where you're coming from, enoch, I agree with you about her growth. I can't be certain because I haven't played it; but from what I have seen, I think that gratitude and openness are exactly what Crystal Dynamics have breathed into Lara to bring her new heroic life. I don't think, though, that this means fans (like me) who have always liked Lara as a dark outsider should be concerned that she's somehow turned into a squeaky clean superhero. Again, I don't feel her darkside stems just from the loss of her parents, but more from her own accurate awareness of being smarter and stronger than the rest of the world - from being set-apart. It's not really arrogance when it's true.;) Like her darkness, I think Lara's aristocratic aura comes not primarily from her parents, but from herself. She does fancy herself as a bit of a "pop queen," but she also takes herself and her work seriously as an explorer. I don't think she has to be just one or the other. I also suspect that through Crystal Dynamics (& Angelina Jolie, IMHO), Lara is intelligent enough to appreciate (if not be grateful for) what she has and human enough to need other people. This makes her likable and the conflict makes her interesting, for me at least. I hope I'm right. I hope we all are. I hope we can all finally see again in Legend whomever Lara was for us when we first fell in love with her. I think that's what's so special about Tomb Raider. I love other games, like the Final Fantasy series for example. But I don't love any other character the way I love Lara Croft. I think it's like that for a lot of people. It's a big deal if we really get her back. :) And, yeah, StarChampagne, I'm pretty excited about the new villains, too. I haven't really thought the TR villains had charisma since TR1, to be honest. I know nothing about Rutland (yay!), but that Amanda...she's a foxie with moxie!:cool: CAN'T WAIT TO PLAY!!!:eek: :confused: :D