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Jayoel
21st Mar 2006, 09:55
ok angel of darkness was great game people just never saw it.

I play angel of darkness all the time I read that they had plans for a sequel.

they still could have gone back to roots but still e a sequel why start over.

aod the best Tomb radier game so far.
Flame if you will.

GoranAgar
21st Mar 2006, 10:17
Flame if you will.
No, not gonna happen. ;)

carlo
21st Mar 2006, 10:31
ok angel of darkness was great game people just never saw it.

I play angel of darkness all the time I read that they had plans for a sequel.

they still could have gone back to roots but still e a sequel why start over.

aod the best Tomb radier game so far.
Flame if you will.

Hardly the best game ever but id like to know what they had planned for the sequal

gingerspice+tombobsessed
21st Mar 2006, 16:00
I agree. It was the best tomb raider game yet, but then again it's my first and only tomb raider game i've played so...lol!

The storyline was amazing by the way - I would've loved to see what they had planned.

Mangar The Dark
21st Mar 2006, 16:32
I wouldn't say it was the best, by any means, but it wasn't nearly as bad as people claimed. I enjoyed it a lot more than TR2, and it was more interesting (in terms of plot) than Chronicles. It was also less tedious than TR3. It's a shame, though, that a few bad design decisions and bugs hampered it. It would have been interesting to see where the story was going, but you know something? I honestly can't say I'll miss it. As good as it was, I'm kind of glad they're going back to a more traditional tomb raiding experience with this new game.

StarChampagne
21st Mar 2006, 17:44
I would love a sequel too! It would be preferable, of course, to have both Legend AND the sequel. But that probably won't happen. I loved Aod, and when my copy broke I went out and got another one! That didn't work either, but I got one free with my new computer so all was well :)

Joshorty
21st Mar 2006, 20:46
Good story. That's just it and solid voice actin'. For a sequel, it'd be better for it to be a special DVD movie instead - -some kinda fan service mabober:D 'cause CORE stil has the potential in making great cutscenes...and stuff. But gameplay is just way off:mad:

Shehi
21st Mar 2006, 21:36
I wouldn't say it was the best, by any means, but it wasn't nearly as bad as people claimed. I enjoyed it a lot more than TR2, and it was more interesting (in terms of plot) than Chronicles. It was also less tedious than TR3. It's a shame, though, that a few bad design decisions and bugs hampered it. It would have been interesting to see where the story was going, but you know something? I honestly can't say I'll miss it. As good as it was, I'm kind of glad they're going back to a more traditional tomb raiding experience with this new game.

Can't agree more :D Dammit, I want a sequel! :)

XoXSarahXoX
22nd Mar 2006, 01:09
Oh come on! I really REALLY really want a sequal as well! They cant just do this to us AOD fans. It isn't fair. AT least put Kurtis in the next TR game, have him help Lara raid or something, or maybe she can run into him again. ANYTHING. But still, I was really intrigued by the AOD storyline, and I'd literally die to see another story.

You CANNOT just pretend like it never happened. I'm sure if Legend does well Crystal Dynamics should take this under consideration.

brat352
22nd Mar 2006, 03:30
No other words needed. (aplogies to those who actually liked this game).

Apologies again - to all!!!

carlo
22nd Mar 2006, 08:29
Oh come on! I really REALLY really want a sequal as well! They cant just do this to us AOD fans. It isn't fair. AT least put Kurtis in the next TR game, have him help Lara raid or something, or maybe she can run into him again. ANYTHING. But still, I was really intrigued by the AOD storyline, and I'd literally die to see another story.

You CANNOT just pretend like it never happened. I'm sure if Legend does well Crystal Dynamics should take this under consideration.

Kurtis is dead!! Did you pay much attention to the ending

star girl
22nd Mar 2006, 09:09
Kurtis is dead!! Did you pay much attention to the ending

Ohh boy... How many times do I have to repeat this:
HE IS NOT DEAD!

Proof! (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=45798)

Anyway, that said. He could forcefully be dead, but if you take it in realistically, he couldn't be. The spear went straight through the middle of his abdomen (Boaz really does have a target, LOL:D ) missing all the vital parts, then again I could be wrong, I'm not a doctor.

But I'd like to see the sequel too. Firstly, I hate being kept in the dark, Kurtis died, fine. He lives, fine. What's not fine is that he was stabbed by a monster and no one knows what became of him. Secondly, I DID NOT find controlling him difficult, donno why, but I had no problems with him (though hated the jig he and Lara did at the stairs :mad: ).

Overall, the story of AOD was quite good, the serial-killer and everything. A sequel should be made, IMHO, whether it's a DVD whatever or a game, I would certainly buy it.

(PS: I bought AOD 3 times to play it, lost the first copy, second woudn't work)

Joshorty
22nd Mar 2006, 12:57
Meh. I realized that like about 3 months ago:D Like the place wasn't the same as the final boss stage. But WHERE did Kurtis go is the question:D ? And I'm suprised Lara walked/swam ALL THE WAY from where she was fighthing Karel and managed to get to where Kurties was:confused:

GoranAgar
22nd Mar 2006, 13:12
He could have been hit by a car 3 weeks later. :)

mrcube
22nd Mar 2006, 14:04
Yeah, I would love AoD sequel, had a great story, and the PC version was fine after they released the patches. (Tomb Raider was always better on PC anyway) I would have loved to have seen some sequels to AoD, maybe it could happen in the future, we can only hope.:)

melviso
22nd Mar 2006, 14:13
Finished the game, nice storyline:thumbsup: ,definitely there should be a sequel!!!:mad:

Shehi
22nd Mar 2006, 14:32
He could have been hit by a car 3 weeks later. :)


Lol Goran :) I also would like to say that I am totally against such a secondary character as Kurtis and hope he never comes back in any TR game.

EddyBones
22nd Mar 2006, 16:50
Angel of Darkness? What's that? :p

StarChampagne
22nd Mar 2006, 17:10
Angel of Darkness? What's that? :p

It never happened... It's all in your imagination... And besides, that was the Angle of Duckness. ;)

Foundered
22nd Mar 2006, 19:52
I don't know about making an Angel of Darkness 2, but I would love to see the script they had made, and any other story/game ideas they were plaining on using in a future game.

I wonder if they explain where Lara got her magnetic grapple in TRL? Maybe she took Kurtis' chirugaii (throwing disk) and added a rope onto it. His weapon is too cool to throw away.

paulmanta
22nd Mar 2006, 22:40
AoD was a dreadful game.

Not worthy of bearing the Tomb Raider name.

A sequel you say ?? please no.

Joshorty
22nd Mar 2006, 22:52
I wouldn't mind as a movie sequel to the game:) 'cause the story's just darn crazy:D

munchkin
22nd Mar 2006, 22:54
I can see why AOD would have its fans, but there was somethng lacking, not only the controls and so on, but a certain Tomb Raiderness, a heart to it all that just wasn;t there.

The other games i can reply and reply, and reply yet more, but this is just i don;t know just doesn;t work for me.

Which isn;t to say that it didn;t have its excellent points, and compared to many other adventure games, out it was certainly better or equal to in standard, but the Tomb Raider series has always been better than most other adventure games out there, (or if your me any other game ever, period :) ) and AOD simply didn;t quite feel right.

The story was good though :)

beccax

Shehi
23rd Mar 2006, 01:02
Which does not mean it shouldn't have a follow-up :)

munchkin
23rd Mar 2006, 02:14
Which does not mean it shouldn't have a follow-up :)

to true. maybe on PS3? :)

i know i know i'm getitng ahead of things :) but.... imagine

beccax

StarChampagne
23rd Mar 2006, 19:16
It would be nice to know where Aod was going... and there was a good game in there, despite flaws, but I played it on the PC where, I gather, there weren't any problems with the camera.

Faye
24th Mar 2006, 07:54
To everyone saying that perhaps they should make a film, allegedly Angelina Jolie saw the way Lara was in Lara Croft: Tomb Raider: The Angel Of Darkness and then said that she would love to play Lara like that, a darker Lara who's life isn't so great anymore, and who has some personal problems to confront. So, it's an interesting idea...

Sophia Leigh
24th Mar 2006, 09:28
To everyone saying that perhaps they should make a film, allegedly Angelina Jolie saw the way Lara was in Lara Croft: Tomb Raider: The Angel Of Darkness and then said that she would love to play Lara like that, a darker Lara who's life isn't so great anymore, and who has some personal problems to confront. So, it's an interesting idea...

Faye, I like that idead :) . Alot of fans want an AOD follow-up and a third movie, what a great combo.


Ohh boy... How many times do I have to repeat this:
HE IS NOT DEAD!

LOL! :D

star girl
24th Mar 2006, 09:38
LOL! :D

No I mean seriously! I've been telling everyone this fact for about a year and a half! C'mon I need a break to..

Suffice it to say the amount of people who actually believed it :mad:

Sophia Leigh
24th Mar 2006, 09:53
No I mean seriously! I've been telling everyone this fact for about a year and a half! C'mon I need a break to..

Suffice it to say the amount of people who actually believed it :mad:

I know you are serious, I don't mean to laugh at you but the amount of times you have had to actually tell people, well, I'm embarrassed to say that I may have been one of them over a year ago :o but I do find it funny that you have to keep repeating it, heck I've even pointed it out a few times since :D

WraithStar
24th Mar 2006, 16:16
I don't think Kurtis is dead, but I don't think he's alive either. They left it deliberately unclear whether Lara found his body in time to save him (he wasn't there, so he must have moved somewhere, but there's no guarantee Lara found him before he bled to death). It's definitely vague enough that they could go either way with whatever sequel they were planning. I wish they had made the ending movie longer and included that bit of information--just another minute or two where we see Lara find Kurtis, and then a brief dialogue (or monologue) saying that the nephilim won't succeed in their evil plot and the game would have felt much more complete. Leaving it unclear whether or not Kurtis died was even worse than having a pyramid fall on Lara at the end of TR4 because at least then, it's Lara so she can't die:rolleyes: I don't really want to see a game sequel to AOD (unless Crystal wants to write it for some reason), but releasing an outline of how the AOD trilogy would have finished would be nice.

Mangar The Dark
24th Mar 2006, 16:27
I actually never completed AOD, in spite of thinking it was pretty good. But from what I'm reading about what happened to Kurtis, it sounds to me as if the designers were leaving things open. They probably figured if Kurtis turned out to be popular, they'd bring him back for AOD2. If not, they could say he died, and let Lara be solo again.

dragonhunter
24th Mar 2006, 16:28
I find it funny how the only people who love AOD the most are the people who ONLY played AOD and no other TR game.

They made the right decision in abandoning that story line.

Tomb Raider is about exploring, discovering, and adventure.

Not running from the police and solving murder. If you want that, play some other game.

If they ever go back to that story line it would be the biggest mistake they could make.

They should continue with Legend.

WraithStar
24th Mar 2006, 16:35
They should continue with Legend.

I'm hoping that Legend will be a complete, stand-alone game (as in, it ties to the rest of the series and has an acceptable ending instead of a "to be continued..."). As such, after Legend they should be perfectly free to do an unrelated story for TR8. If they wanted to complete the AOD story, I'm sure they'd do a fantastic job. I don't think they will ever touch AOD, but I'm just saying that if they did, it'd probably turn out great:)

ShadowOfOblivion
24th Mar 2006, 17:21
I tried playing Angel of Darkness again the day before and it was absolutely terrible. I hated how much of a pain Lara was to control, and absolutely nothing about that game made me want to proceed past the training level.

Plain and simple, Angel of Darkness wasn't Tomb Raider. It was Lara on a bad day, running from the cops using some (badly implemented) stealth. Yes, I was completely wowed by the game the first time I played it, but I think after seeing how much better Legend is compared to Angel of Darkness, I simply cant stomach AOD anymore.

Sure it would've been nice to know what happened after AOD, and there's evidence that Crystal Dynamics were planning to continue it...but that's in the past now.

Yes, AOD being continued via movie would be a great idea..but like I said, AOD wasn't Tomb Raider.

If anything, the next movie should be based around the events of Legend, along with a new actress to play the part (cause lets face it..Legend Lara doesn't look like Jolie anymore. Least not in anywhere except the cover art).

dragonhunter
24th Mar 2006, 17:31
The only reason they created AOD was because they "screwed up" the TR series and in an effort to regain fans they decided to go off in a new direction.

Look, i liked the game too, it was entertaining.

But the fact of the matter is that its not a TR game. Its a game, that happens to have Lara Croft in it.

The best thing they ever did was hand the series to CD and get back Lara's original creator. And make Legend a classic TR game, the way it should be.

TR games are adventure, exploring, discovery games. The story lines are not the main purpose.

The whole dark, running from the cops in city streets, while sneaking behind someone and killing them is not Tomb Raider. Try playing Splinter Cell. Or somrthing else.

TR is for those who like to explore barren archeoligical areas, and have mythical tie ins, and find artifacts, solve puzzles, ect ect...and battle with supernatural beings.

Second off, i dont want to play with Curtis. Sorry, when i pick up a TR game i want to play as Lara, not Curtis. If they give Curtis a seperate game called: Curtis: the adventures of Curtis...great and that should please you Curtis fans. As a TR fan, i want NOTHING to do with Curtis.

Keep putting out games that deal with anchient civilizations and artifatcs...something INTELLIGENT, like Legend, and thats how it should be. If you dont like TR for TR then dont play it, find another series.

You cant fit a square in a hole made for a triangle.

dragonhunter
24th Mar 2006, 17:34
I tried playing Angel of Darkness again the day before and it was absolutely terrible. I hated how much of a pain Lara was to control, and absolutely nothing about that game made me want to proceed past the training level.

Plain and simple, Angel of Darkness wasn't Tomb Raider. It was Lara on a bad day, running from the cops using some (badly implemented) stealth. Yes, I was completely wowed by the game the first time I played it, but I think after seeing how much better Legend is compared to Angel of Darkness, I simply cant stomach AOD anymore.

Sure it would've been nice to know what happened after AOD, and there's evidence that Crystal Dynamics were planning to continue it...but that's in the past now.

Yes, AOD being continued via movie would be a great idea..but like I said, AOD wasn't Tomb Raider.

If anything, the next movie should be based around the events of Legend, along with a new actress to play the part (cause lets face it..Legend Lara doesn't look like Jolie anymore. Least not in anywhere except the cover art).

i agree

Mangar The Dark
24th Mar 2006, 17:57
The only reason they created AOD was because they "screwed up" the TR series and in an effort to regain fans they decided to go off in a new direction.

Very true. They new it was time to reinvent the series or risk letting it waste away. And I actually liked the fact that they DID try something different. We had five games of essentially doing the same thing, so when I heard AOD would offer a new experience, I was excited. It turned out not to feel all that different anyway, which I suppose is good or bad depending on how you look at it, but at least they made the effort.



But the fact of the matter is that its not a TR game. Its a game, that happens to have Lara Croft in it.


Completely agree. I always felt they should have dropped "Tomb Raider" from the name. They already added "Lara Croft" to the title, so why not just "Lara Croft: Angel of Darkness"? I suggested this a while back and people said it would have cut into sales if they dropped "Tomb Raider" from the title, but I doubt it would have. I think the name "Lara Croft" is just as recognizable these days as "Tomb Raider," especially when you have a picture of her right there on the box.



TR games are adventure, exploring, discovery games. The story lines are not the main purpose.

Ideally, though, they would combine a great story with exploring and discovery. "Last Revelation" is the closest they've come to doing this, and it was a darn good game.



Second off, i dont want to play with Curtis. Sorry, when i pick up a TR game i want to play as Lara, not Curtis. If they give Curtis a seperate game called: Curtis: the adventures of Curtis...great and that should please you Curtis fans. As a TR fan, i want NOTHING to do with Curtis.

I never understood this attitude. He comprised a small portion of the game, and you still spent the bulk of time playing as Lara. If he had been easier to control, I would have had no problem with him at all. I think the idea of having a new character working with Lara was a good one, it just wasn't executed well.

And as for the common complaints about AOD's controls-- I still haven't found anything so drastically different about them from previous TR games. Yes, they varied a bit, but they really weren't difficult. I played on the PC, though, so maybe the complaints are from people who played on the consoles.

WraithStar
24th Mar 2006, 18:35
Well said, Mangar The Dark:)

I also played AOD on PC with both patches and the controls weren't extremely difficult. There were only a few places where the camera was at a weird angle and that made it frustrating to control Lara, but I don't remember that happening too often. AOD could have been a very good game if they hadn't tried to accomplish too much at once and ended up having a bunch of half-finished trinkets instead. It definitely wasn't Tomb Raider, and I didn't care for Lara's attitude because that's not who Lara is. They should have made AOD with a different main character and started a separate series.

ShadowOfOblivion
24th Mar 2006, 19:09
There were only a few places where the camera was at a weird angle and that made it frustrating to control Lara, but I don't remember that happening too often.

That right there was the problem. Although camera based controls are the norm nowadays, AOD's team never had enough time to fully implement it and as a result it suffered. And remember you guys are talking about the PC version which was patchable. I'm referring to the PS2 version which was a big mess.

On the PS2, the time it took for a control command to get to Lara was off by a split second. While that might not seem like such a huge deal, in games like Tomb Raider where precision counts, having Lara not respond immediately to a command for her to jump can be disasterous. It can (and did) lead to Lara not stopping when on a ledge, not jumping at exactly the right time, and falling to her death dozens of times during the Hall of Seasons level.

Like it's been said, AOD was not Tomb Raider. It was a game that coincidentally starred Lara Croft as a character.

Seriously, we only had Tombs for what...1/4th of the game? Pathetic!

Mangar The Dark
24th Mar 2006, 19:43
Seriously, we only had Tombs for what...1/4th of the game? Pathetic!

True, but Chronicles was no better. If anything, I think Chronicles was worse in that regard. At least AOD had a fairly decent sized section of tombs in the Hall of Seasons and the dig site, etc. Chronicles really didn't have ANY tomb-related stuff (I guess the bit in Rome, beneath the colisseum was sort of tomb-like, but that was what? One level?)

ShadowOfOblivion
24th Mar 2006, 20:23
I think Chronicles was the biggest waste ever. Lara Croft was supposed to be dead, why not leave people guessing till AOD was finished?

Mangar The Dark
24th Mar 2006, 20:54
I think Chronicles was the biggest waste ever. Lara Croft was supposed to be dead, why not leave people guessing till AOD was finished?

Exactly.
Chronicles, to me, felt more like a set of expansion levels for TLR. It wasn't bad, but it did not feel like a fully fleshed out sequel, and was quite a let down after TLR. Really, its main selling point was the level editor. As many problems as AOD may have had, at least it felt like a real sequel because they tried to move the franchise forward.

Scott =]!
24th Mar 2006, 23:30
I tried playing Angel of Darkness again the day before and it was absolutely terrible. I hated how much of a pain Lara was to control, and absolutely nothing about that game made me want to proceed past the training level.

Plain and simple, Angel of Darkness wasn't Tomb Raider. It was Lara on a bad day, running from the cops using some (badly implemented) stealth. Yes, I was completely wowed by the game the first time I played it, but I think after seeing how much better Legend is compared to Angel of Darkness, I simply cant stomach AOD anymore.

Sure it would've been nice to know what happened after AOD, and there's evidence that Crystal Dynamics were planning to continue it...but that's in the past now.

Yes, AOD being continued via movie would be a great idea..but like I said, AOD wasn't Tomb Raider.

If anything, the next movie should be based around the events of Legend, along with a new actress to play the part (cause lets face it..Legend Lara doesn't look like Jolie anymore. Least not in anywhere except the cover art).


Lara does look like angie besides shes great for the part anyway nothing you can do about her being in the next TR movie she is alreealy contracted for it




:) bye bye peps im real tired

munchkin
25th Mar 2006, 10:49
The whole point of chronicles as Core and eidos said at the time was to tie up loose ends for the PSone games to move on tidily to the new hardware of PS2. Of course that didn;t work so great in AOD, although it wasn;t a bad adventure game, as a whole,. but in comparison to its predecessors lacked a certia something. Chronicles was a goodbye PS1, no more or less, and was reaoanbly enjoyable, definatly replayable, and good tie off to the series so far as it got.

And given the devleopment of AOD not being so well recieved as eidos would have liked, and moving the franchise to the fresh team at CD, it works very well, as a swan song, farewell, decent game from core also.

beccax

star girl
25th Mar 2006, 14:13
Mum, there is no need to feel embarassed. And well, yeah I was angry at that time and you know when I'm angry, I don;t take a general view of things. I laughed later too (now THAT'S embarassing :o )

Chronicles, (I'm on the last level right now) was worse than AOD. True Lara had her gear and everything but.. HEY! At least we knew where we were going in AOD. In Chronicles, once you are a 16-year old, and then you are same older Lara. Like someone said above, it was just to tie up the loose ends. Completely agreed.

But once fact; another I'll remind you all... AOD was UNFINISHED! That is the EXACT reason why it had so many errors in it. An unfinished game compared to a revised one... obviously the secind choice would be a hit. PLUS, in an old thread (a little while before I joined in) has some Hidden FMV scene and it contains all the stuff that was to put in it. Haven't read the whole thing through, here it is:-

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=42404&highlight=Hidden+FMV+scene+found%21

IN ADDITION TO THAT, Kurtis was to have GREAT MOVES:


How to use Kurtis Blade and farsee abilitys

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thing won't budge. I'll use a psychic boost. 'Phew! That always drains me. Stand next to the door and select my 'psychic Strength' from the inventory. Then press the action button That gap's too far. I need to boost my jump To clear this gap run at the edge and press the jump button. At the apex of the jump press the jump button again. I need to see beyond this door Select my Farsee ability from the inventory. Move my mind's eye forward by holding the jump button. Steer by using the left analogue stick. It's too dark in here. I need to boost my sight. To use my psychic sight select it from the inventory. Let's finish this quickly. Blade! Select the Blade from the inventory. Then Press the combat button. To throw the Blade press the combat button once again For multiple targets hold down the combat button then select each target as it appears. Release the combat button to throw the homing Blade. The strength of my enemies' empowers me. To absorb an enemy's strength press and hold the action button My psychic strength is increased. Then press the action key That gap's too far. I need to boost my jump To clear this gap run at the edge and press the jump key At the apex of the jump press the jump key again. Move my mind's eye forward by holding the jump key Steer by using the cursor keys It's too dark in here. I need to boost my sight. Let's finish this quickly. Blade! Then Press the combat key To throw the Blade press the combat key once again For multiple targets hold down the combat key then select each target as it appears. Release the combat key to throw the homing Blade. To absorb an enemy's strength press and hold the action key The alchemists' Tree of Matter was an early form of the periodic table. Carvier! Another Monstrum victim! Lux Veritatis mecum. Light of truth be with me. Ex hostium vi mea vis maior. The strength of my enemies empowers me. Let's finish this quickly - Chirugai! Chirugai! select the Chirugai from the inventory To throw the Chirugai press the combat button again To throw the Chirugai press the combat key

Now... if AOD was finished, we'd been looking forward to it's sequel...

(Taken from the link)

StarChampagne
25th Mar 2006, 15:08
I agree with star girl. I thought Aod was fantastic, despite it being uninished. And I have played all the games, although I started with TR4 and that captured my heart like no other :) But Aod could have been so much more, and I would love to see the sequel! It's probably too massive a project to undertake without financial motivation, but it would have been great to control Kurtis as he was meant to be controlled, and enjoy all of his abilities. Also, the plot was something special. I suppose you could enjoy it on all sorts of levels - there's the ancient order of evil trying to take over the world, and then there's also Lara's personal struggle, and the detailed history of the Nephilim etc. We can only wonder what might have happened if Aod had been a massive success...

melviso
25th Mar 2006, 15:40
Poor Lara....she is gonna be single for the rest of her life. How old is she now?

U know come to think of it,isn't she gonna have kids,get married,go on vacation or something.

I almost forgot she is a game character!!!:rolleyes:

dragonhunter
25th Mar 2006, 17:08
Poor Lara....she is gonna be single for the rest of her life. How old is she now?

U know come to think of it,isn't she gonna have kids,get married,go on vacation or something.

I almost forgot she is a game character!!!:rolleyes:

LOL the great thing about characters is that they never age.

But also the fact that shes a bachelorett(spelling??) is part of what makes her appealing to us guys too. Would you wanna be running around tombs with a married mother of 3? Or a beautiful rebel lone wolf woman that doesnt take poop from anyone.:cool:

Shehi
25th Mar 2006, 20:39
Mum, there is no need to feel embarassed. And well, yeah I was angry at that time and you know when I'm angry, I don;t take a general view of things. I laughed later too (now THAT'S embarassing :o )

Chronicles, (I'm on the last level right now) was worse than AOD. True Lara had her gear and everything but.. HEY! At least we knew where we were going in AOD. In Chronicles, once you are a 16-year old, and then you are same older Lara. Like someone said above, it was just to tie up the loose ends. Completely agreed.

But once fact; another I'll remind you all... AOD was UNFINISHED! That is the EXACT reason why it had so many errors in it. An unfinished game compared to a revised one... obviously the secind choice would be a hit. PLUS, in an old thread (a little while before I joined in) has some Hidden FMV scene and it contains all the stuff that was to put in it. Haven't read the whole thing through, here it is:-

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=42404&highlight=Hidden+FMV+scene+found%21

IN ADDITION TO THAT, Kurtis was to have GREAT MOVES:



Now... if AOD was finished, we'd been looking forward to it's sequel...

(Taken from the link)


Now I feel much worse :( I never read that topic here... With it unfinished, so much fun was lost!

Raven
26th Mar 2006, 00:35
I find it funny how the only people who love AOD the most are the people who ONLY played AOD and no other TR game.

I don't think that's true, although I've heard it many times. I go on several different TR forums and have made a lot of tomb raiding friends online, and I've found that many of the keenest AoD supporters are actually people who played TR since the start, like myself, and appreciated the stronger storylines of TRs 4-6.


They made the right decision in abandoning that story line.

Tomb Raider is about exploring, discovering, and adventure.

I see AoD as the logical conclusion to what happened to Lara in TR4. I felt that finding out about the Nephilim and the paintings was discovery, and an adventure, but with something more substantial behind it than just "Lara pursues artifact of the week"...she had more personal motivation for what she was doing this time around.

Although to be fair, from what we know of Legend, it looks like her quest is also of a personal nature.

In any case, AoD's sequel, according to Core Design, was to be set almost entirely in ancient temples and tombs, the Nephilim cities in Turkey. So if the storyline had been continued, it would have been more of the classic Raiding that people wanted to see, not more of the same urban levels featured in AoD (which I actually loved)

Joshorty
26th Mar 2006, 01:37
Paris wasn't really that appealing:( Well not to say in real life, it's trash or anythin' of course. I kinda expected urban people walkin' on urban streets...and I felt more like I was trappend in Paris the fact that there were borders and stuff -_-....I wanted to go and explore the streets but it felt more like a jungle gym instead:(

Sophia Leigh
26th Mar 2006, 02:19
I don't think that's true, although I've heard it many times. I go on several different TR forums and have made a lot of tomb raiding friends online, and I've found that many of the keenest AoD supporters are actually people who played TR since the start, like myself, and appreciated the stronger storylines of TRs 4-6.



I see AoD as the logical conclusion to what happened to Lara in TR4. I felt that finding out about the Nephilim and the paintings was discovery, and an adventure, but with something more substantial behind it than just "Lara pursues artifact of the week"...she had more personal motivation for what she was doing this time around.

Although to be fair, from what we know of Legend, it looks like her quest is also of a personal nature.

In any case, AoD's sequel, according to Core Design, was to be set almost entirely in ancient temples and tombs, the Nephilim cities in Turkey. So if the storyline had been continued, it would have been more of the classic Raiding that people wanted to see, not more of the same urban levels featured in AoD (which I actually loved)

I completely agree with all of this, I too had played the first five games before playing AOD and I loved AOD. I know it was unfinished but I enjoyed the story line and I was also really looking forward to the ancient temples, tombs and Nephilim cities in Turkey. I saw AOD as the introduction to more great tomb raiding that it was supposed to be, where as I feel some other people have looked at it as just an individual game.

Shehi
26th Mar 2006, 02:26
First time I see so many positive feedbacks regarding AOD... And thankfully, they look really justified and objective :) Thanks guys! Glad to see I am not the only one who loved AOD.

star girl
26th Mar 2006, 13:51
First time I see so many positive feedbacks regarding AOD... And thankfully, they look really justified and objective Thanks guys! Glad to see I am not the only one who loved AOD.


Yeah.. me too :) . But the chances for a sequel are still down, and that is what disappoints me. :(

StarChampagne
26th Mar 2006, 15:28
It's easy to think, I suppose, that EVERYONE hated Aod. The magazines were full of it, and maybe it just came to be 'accpeted' that it was terrible and an abomination to the series. But I liked it, and I'm not the only one... :)

Raven
26th Mar 2006, 15:43
I was just about to say that, StarChampagne :) AoD has a terrible reputation, is routinely bashed by gaming magazines and, sadly, by the team developing Legend (shame on them) and yet there are many people who thoroughly enjoyed it despite its flaws and unfinished-ness.

Every time someone lays into AoD on a forum like this, some will agree, but just as many will defend it. Criticising it is fashionable, but there are plenty of fans who would like to see the story continued. After all, when they ditched the AoD storyline, they didn't just abandon the Nephilim story, but Lara's story since TR4.
It is a shame to leave all that hanging. I feel certain that the plot of AoD could have been carried on without the flaws that plagued it...all this fuss about Legend "going back to the tombs where Lara's supposed to be", and yet the next game was to have done that anyway. If they'd also sorted out the controls and the bugs and overhauled Lara herself a bit, I think the vast majority of TR fans would have been very satisfied with AoD2.

I'd be surprised if we ever see that sequel though, especially as Crystal have gone and rewritten Lara's bio and background. I suppose all us AoD fans can do is make our feelings known.

owen10
26th Mar 2006, 17:03
I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy AoD at the time but, having just played it for the first time in two years, "rose-tinted specs" more than spring to mind.

The story itself is worthy, the soundtrack is impressive and some of the puzzles are neatly conceived, but the execution is incredibly lacking. The controls are absolutely horrendous, and I was one of their biggest supporters on these forums three years ago. It's a game devoid of identity, not knowing if it's a point and click adventure, Resident Evil clone or, heaven forbid, a Tomb Raider game. Throw in the bugs and unfinished elements which litter every corner of a game countless years in the making sold for £30 and you've got one unhappy Tomb Raider fan.

Even the memory of the pretentious video which preceded its release makes me feel sick to my stomach.

edit: OMG, that video is on the disc - it's worse than I remember! It's possibly the most unintentionally ironic thing I've ever seen.

"I feel stronger" - what the hell is that? Now she can open a biscuit tin - you beauty! :confused: Every facet of the game screams PlayStation 1; this from a title touted as "next generation Lara" - ironically something we've had to wait 6 years for, as PS2 enjoys its twilight years.

knightgames
27th Mar 2006, 10:03
I wonder what the percentage of people liked/hated Aod would be if we were to take a poll.

I'm glad that there were folks who enjoyed it. I'd certainly not want to take away the pleasure of their experience. I myself didn't like the play mechanics or the lack of tomb/ exploration.

Even when there were tombs, it seemed they were small rooms instead of the grand pillared,and cavernous ones we're used to. We'd get into a room (Hall of Seasons is a Classic example) pull a few levers and then another load screen.

I DID like the story of AoD, and would love to see it continued. Instead of a live action movie I'd prefer a CGI animated movie. (Heck I'd like one of the Legacy of Kain, but that's another forum)

Back to my original thought. I'd be willing to wager the percentage of those who liked verses those who didn't would be 30% liked AoD, while 70% didn't. It would be interesting to really know.

For me not liking AoD wasn't a jump on the band wagon....... I was already the driver :P (JK)

Rascalius
27th Mar 2006, 10:49
I'm pretty sure the AoD fans will change their minds once they get their teeth into Legend. :D

Shehi
27th Mar 2006, 15:29
You mean everytime you meet some new and better game, you start disliking previous, older ones? Loving Legend does not require or infer to disliking AOD, I guess. Most probably Legend will be much more sophisticated and powerful game than AOD was - but lets not forget that AOD was not even finished. Comparing finished and unfinished products is not logical thing to do I guess (sorry if it sounds rude, I just could not find better words to express myself).

star girl
27th Mar 2006, 15:31
I'm pretty sure the AoD fans will change their minds once they get their teeth into Legend. :D

Yeah, maybe... let's hope that way.

Mangar The Dark
27th Mar 2006, 16:33
You but lets not forget that AOD was not even finished. Comparing finished and unfinished products is not logical thing to do I guess (sorry if it sounds rude, I just could not find better words to express myself).

Well, you can't really use its unfinished state as an excuse for any shortcomings. It was released that way, and therefore what we bought WAS the finished product in the sense that no more work was ever done on it, and Eidos apparently felt it was finished enough to release it. (and considering how many delays AOD experienced, they game really SHOULD have been in full working order.)

WraithStar
27th Mar 2006, 16:41
Comparing finished and unfinished products is not logical thing to do I guess (sorry if it sounds rude, I just could not find better words to express myself).

Well, realistically, if you paid the same price for them, then they are comparable. I think that most of the people who hate AOD hate it because they paid full-price for a half-finished game. I got it for $5 and I enjoyed it, but I know for a fact that if I had paid much more for it, I would have felt ripped off.

Mangar The Dark
27th Mar 2006, 17:39
Well, realistically, if you paid the same price for them, then they are comparable. I think that most of the people who hate AOD hate it because they paid full-price for a half-finished game. I got it for $5 and I enjoyed it, but I know for a fact that if I had paid much more for it, I would have felt ripped off.

Completely agree.
The bad reviews actually helped me enjoy AOD more because I refused to buy a buggy game at full price, so I waited until I found it for $5. Then, I was pleasantly surprised when it turned out to be better than expected, but I really think my extremely low expectations and the cheap price helped a lot. I didn't have a terrible time with the game like some of you did, and I actually got a fair amount of enjoyment out of it, but for $5, it was a no lose situation. I'd have been a lot more critical of it if I had spent $40.

Joshorty
27th Mar 2006, 18:00
For sure, AOD isn't the best example for adventure genre gameplay...

ShadowOfOblivion
27th Mar 2006, 18:20
For sure, AOD isn't the best example for adventure genre gameplay...

Exactly.

Stick up for it how much you want, but for a game to be an classic game it must stand the test of time and be as exciting as the first time you got to play it.

That's why the first two Tomb Raider's are referred to as classics, because no matter how many times you play them, you still get as much enjoyment out of them as the first time you completed the game.

With AOD it wasn't like that. It had a decent story and nice music like owen said, but everything else about it was completely lacking.

It was just an overly, unfinished game..and that's a shame because the earlier videos suggested so much more for it than what we saw.

Mangar The Dark
27th Mar 2006, 18:46
That's why the first two Tomb Raider's are referred to as classics

Well, I don't know about TR2... I hated that one. I'd rather play AOD. But I know what you mean about a game needing to stand the test of time. For me, the original and Last Revelation are in that category.

owen10
27th Mar 2006, 19:20
Well, you can't really use its unfinished state as an excuse for any shortcomings. It was released that way, and therefore what we bought WAS the finished product in the sense that no more work was ever done on it, and Eidos apparently felt it was finished enough to release it. (and considering how many delays AOD experienced, they game really SHOULD have been in full working order.)
Totally agree.

Joshorty
28th Mar 2006, 02:48
O that's sad...hope of high anticipation...even on the first day it was relelased, I wanted to geddit for Ps2 so bad but then in the end, I just get it cheap for PC...

knightgames
28th Mar 2006, 06:55
Well, I don't know about TR2... I hated that one. I'd rather play AOD. But I know what you mean about a game needing to stand the test of time. For me, the original and Last Revelation are in that category.


When I first played TR2 I wasn't enamoured by it. There were moments of brilliance in it, but it didn't click with me. A few months to a year later I played it again. I ended up liking TR2 just as much as TR1. The only thing I hated about TR2 was the spring action trampolines. There was a level where you had to manage a series of 4 0r 5 of them in a row non stop. If you didn't hit the first one just right you were catapolted straight up and SPLAT!
If you managed to hit the first one off just a fraction you'd get to the last spring boards and smash into the wall. By far the most frustrating section in all of TR2..... Almost as much as the Red Ghost in AoD.
Thankfully there was a save where you wanted to implimented in the game.

The level design was devious, and quite imaginative. If I had a PS 2 I'd play it again.

WraithStar
28th Mar 2006, 16:47
O that's sad...hope of high anticipation...even on the first day it was relelased, I wanted to geddit for Ps2 so bad but then in the end, I just get it cheap for PC...

That probably worked out for the best. With the patches, the PC version is not that bad.

About TR2, I liked it but it's not my favorite game. I've replayed the first 5 games recently (my brother has my copy of AOD so I won't get to replay that before Legend comes out). Pretty much everything that I remembered from the first time I played it is still memorable, but not much more sticks out in my mind even though I've played it recently. I had actually forgotten about the trampoline thing until just now. I don't remember having *that* much difficulty with it, but maybe that's just because I've played some games that were a lot more frustrating in certain areas so the trampolines were nice in comparison:rolleyes:

Mangar The Dark
28th Mar 2006, 18:47
My main problem with TR2 was that they forgot TR was supposed to be about exploration and puzzles, and they turned it into a shooter. There was so much more fighting in TR2 and it got tedious (also, it seemed like every enemy required a lot of hits to be killed.)

StarChampagne
28th Mar 2006, 19:07
My main problem with TR2 was that they forgot TR was supposed to be about exploration and puzzles, and they turned it into a shooter. There was so much more fighting in TR2 and it got tedious (also, it seemed like every enemy required a lot of hits to be killed.)

TR2 is one of my favourites, but I have to agree. Every few minutes there were platoons of thugs to be taken out... Maybe the reason I liked Aod was because I didn't have control problems. I was on the PC, so maybe it was more of a problem on the PlayStations? Although jumping across those small platforms in the Hall of Seasons was quite difficult... but I now know, thanks to someone here, that when Lara hops she leans in the direction of the last directional key you pressed... so that could have saved a lot of the pain.

Mangar The Dark
28th Mar 2006, 19:56
Maybe the reason I liked Aod was because I didn't have control problems. I was on the PC, so maybe it was more of a problem on the PlayStations?

Yeah, I think the control problems were a PS2 thing. I played on the PC and had no trouble controlling Lara. The jumping portion you mentioned was a bit tricky, but it was supposed to be-- wind was blowing, the pillars were leaning, etc. It took me a few tries. The only other control difficulty I had was when trying to go up/down stairs. Sometimes she'd decide to stand there and perform a Irish jig instead.

knightgames
29th Mar 2006, 07:41
My main problem with TR2 was that they forgot TR was supposed to be about exploration and puzzles, and they turned it into a shooter. There was so much more fighting in TR2 and it got tedious (also, it seemed like every enemy required a lot of hits to be killed.)


That's really my only knock on the TR series in general. (from 2 onward) TR4 had a lot of human enemies too. The sword carrying guys who would spin their swords to block your bullits...

I'd rather face a bunch of bacony mummies and creatures than humans.

That being said I still think TR2 was darn good. TR1 was such a milestone in gameplay it would be hard to beat it. I still think TR1 had the best atmosphere of all of them. I really felt alone in those tombs. I felt I was treading where no human had been for centuries. That to me was a big attraction to the TR atmosphere.

Mangar The Dark
29th Mar 2006, 14:13
That's really my only knock on the TR series in general. (from 2 onward) TR4 had a lot of human enemies too. The sword carrying guys who would spin their swords to block your bullits...

I'd rather face a bunch of bacony mummies and creatures than humans.

That being said I still think TR2 was darn good. TR1 was such a milestone in gameplay it would be hard to beat it. I still think TR1 had the best atmosphere of all of them. I really felt alone in those tombs. I felt I was treading where no human had been for centuries. That to me was a big attraction to the TR atmosphere.

Yeah, TR1 had great atmosphere-- the Lost Valley really did feel like it was deep underground and untouched for hundreds of years. As primitive as the graphics were, it was great for its time, and the lack of human enemies really helped. TR4 was the second best for atmosphere, in my opinion. The return to tomb-like environments really helped, and although there were plenty of human enemies, there didn't seem to be quite as many as in TR2. I remember when TR2 came out, one of the exciting features was that it included outdoor environments, but I quickly realized that the big appeal in TR was the fact that we got to explore cavernous INDOOR environments. Running around the streets of Venice, Rome, Paris, etc, just didn't work for me. Some outdoor levels were cool, but overall, I preferred the cavernous indoor ones.

By the way, Knightgames, did you name yourself after that old Commodore 64 game? I used to play Knight Games quite a lot back when I had that computer!

CatSuit&Ponytail
29th Mar 2006, 14:24
... I liked it, and I'm not the only one... :)

You are right. :)

malaikat
1st Apr 2006, 19:33
I actually kinda liked AOD, to finally have a storyline...
:o Storyline
:o New playable character
:o Choosing where conversations go

:( graphics
:( controls
:( no mansion booooo

There are good points and bad points about all of the games in the series

Joshorty
1st Apr 2006, 19:49
the conversations can get pretty boring...just two camera angles and very little movement....it has the emotion but no motion!! (well there is, but not the kind where a movie would fit in...)...for those who played the game FAHRENHEIT / INDIGO PROPHECY would know what I mean.

owen10
1st Apr 2006, 20:20
But that's just it - this game shares more in common with Fahrenheit than any of the original Tomb Raiders. With AoD, the series lost its identity in trying to create a new one.

Piega
1st Apr 2006, 20:26
The start of the story was bad. Killing Von Croy was a bad idea. I liked Von Croy in the series and killing him was leaving Lara without a bad guy. The cheap WMVideo's instead of bink was dissapointing. Those are incorrect too did you know?

In the first video you hear the gunshot and Von Croy falls to the floor. In the final video Von Croy falls first, Lara gets knocked out and then you hear the gunshot. You can watch them seperately. Look how you are taken into a fake story!

If the controls were better then I would liked the game more but the story was not interesting for me. The converstions were stupid and "my legs feel stronger now" was even more stupid.

I did like the Tomb of Ancients as that was real tomb raider and also the music was great. Eckard's voice was also very deep and a good character but the rest could not entertain me. Lara in a disco? Come on!

Joshorty
1st Apr 2006, 21:59
Okay this is odd...after playin' the GREAT DEMO:D , AOD feels completely different to me now...as in...I don't like it anymore:eek: it's weird.....maybe I'll have my uncle to play and record the game and put it on DVD so it'll be like watchin' a movie rather then playing it...

Shehi
2nd Apr 2006, 00:13
The start of the story was bad. Killing Von Croy was a bad idea. I liked Von Croy in the series and killing him was leaving Lara without a bad guy. The cheap WMVideo's instead of bink was dissapointing. Those are incorrect too did you know?

In the first video you hear the gunshot and Von Croy falls to the floor. In the final video Von Croy falls first, Lara gets knocked out and then you hear the gunshot. You can watch them seperately. Look how you are taken into a fake story!

If the controls were better then I would liked the game more but the story was not interesting for me. The converstions were stupid and "my legs feel stronger now" was even more stupid.

I did like the Tomb of Ancients as that was real tomb raider and also the music was great. Eckard's voice was also very deep and a good character but the rest could not entertain me. Lara in a disco? Come on!


For notice: FMV's were MPEG's not WMV's. And WMV is not a cheap format either, it is as powerful as AVI is, can even feature multilayered audio as AVI does.

I played Fahrenheit, and it has NOTHING to do with AOD. Fahrenheit is cinematic game, full of pure joy. You don't push yourself that hard to play it, instead you just love it. All required there is a bit inpulsive response, that is all. AOD in contrast is adventure game, with little action and stealth elements (yea latter was too much, I agree).

Regarding stupidity part: For God's sake, its a GAME. It does not require to be either real, or something clever. "I feel stronger" was not Tomb Raider'ish, but it is more than acceptable for any decent game. Yes TR is not RPG which means improving your character's skills should not be in it, but I am sure noone can judge necessity of these new features coz:

1. we never saw final product
2. we never know complete story
3. we never know what core really had in mind.

Unless we know these, whatever we say, can't be objective. So, in short, I don't think anyone actually claim the game was bad, coz to prove something negative, you must have all facts available regarding the positive side of it (e.g., to prove something does not exist you must search every corner of universe, however with slight sign of it, you can say it exists, thus proving existense or positive statement is easier than otherwise). We don't have those facts available here. So I really don't understand why we are arguing about this. What we can talk here is we can express our desire to have the sequel (it is the topic, isn't it?), not justify our thoughts and try to make a debate. Of course, these are all my thoughts, you may agree or disagree.

Piega
2nd Apr 2006, 05:40
You are right. I mixed up WMV and MPEG. It's the MPEG that is cheap. And I just mentioned why I dont want a sequel, not trying to get a debate. I judge the final product we got and not wondering what it would be like if they got the whole game finished cause that is simply not fair as you could do that with any game to talk it right. Even if it is a game "my legs feel stronger" belongs in the kid education department. I also have given positive points of AOD, no need to get upset with me :)

Shehi
2nd Apr 2006, 13:34
You are right. I mixed up WMV and MPEG. It's the MPEG that is cheap. And I just mentioned why I dont want a sequel, not trying to get a debate. I judge the final product we got and not wondering what it would be like if they got the whole game finished cause that is simply not fair as you could do that with any game to talk it right. Even if it is a game "my legs feel stronger" belongs in the kid education department. I also have given positive points of AOD, no need to get upset with me :)

Hell no Piega :) I never get upset with anyone, unless its something personal :P Your thoughts are quite valuable and thank you for sharing with us!

bigesttombfan09
2nd Apr 2006, 18:10
Angel of darkness was good but i sure missed going to he jungle in what not in angel of darkness she was always in the street

StarChampagne
2nd Apr 2006, 18:22
Angel of darkness was good but i sure missed going to he jungle in what not in angel of darkness she was always in the street

The gameplay took a new direction I guess, but Legend's back to jungles :)

She also spent a good deal of time in tombs, but it annoyed me when media reviews described the whole game being spent 'chatting to Parisian prostitutes'.

So, we have plenty of TR3 India-type levels in Legend (well, sort of), and I can't wait! Aod and Legend are two different TR experiences I guess. I would still love to see the sequel to Aod.

TRBeth
2nd Apr 2006, 18:52
I believe I read a long time ago when AOD first came out that the 2nd sequel actually was going to be "going back to the tombs". I believe the setting was going to be in Turkey with some exploration of catacombs, underground ancient city, etc. I agree that AOD was a good game, despite the bad press. With the "trilogy" concept in mind, my thinking was that AOD was just "the beginning" and that we would get to tombs and cobwebs as the trilogy progressed. The moodiness of the game was awesome, I thought, and it really had a plot, which, admittedly was a tad lacking in the older versions of the game. Bottom line, the "fans" are the ones that killed AOD...and now we sit here lamenting about it.

I find it interesting that this particular thread is running with pages of posts, the largest thread going, and we are actually in a LEGEND forum. Does that say anything, I wonder? :rolleyes:

Scriptoe
2nd Apr 2006, 19:28
I for one hated AOD to no end. The controls and camera were horrible. I played it for 2 days and put it away. I wish there was a way to get my money back on it. It was so slow that it felt like trying to drive the rover on mars because of the time delay between when you pushed a button and lara actually did something.

None of the games compare to TR1 and never will. I just can't believe that Legend is on DVD and is so much shorter than the CD driven TR1. I finished Legend in 12 hours and I distinctly remember taking weeks to finish TR1.

I also remember that a human foe was a strange thing to encounter in TR1. Well, don't get excited about there not being any human foes in Legend. Because I only counted 2 snow leopards, 3 jaguars and about half a dozen guard dogs. The rest were all human.

I'm going to break out TR1 again. I'll see you guys in a couple weeks.

Raven
2nd Apr 2006, 19:55
The gameplay took a new direction I guess, but Legend's back to jungles :)

She also spent a good deal of time in tombs, but it annoyed me when media reviews described the whole game being spent 'chatting to Parisian prostitutes'.



That's a common element in every single review or article on AoD in any gaming magazine. The phrase "running around the streets of Paris", or very close variants, appears so often that I'm sick and tired of reading it. In fact those are only the opening levels, and you spent much more time in the tomb environments under the Louvre, and later in the Lost Domain. But in the minds of people who dislike AoD, the Paris ghetto section seems to represent the whole game.

I can't help but suspect that many people who talk like that didn't progress much beyond the first few levels, or they'd know better. In any case, I feel that AoD was trying to do something that Core had been moving towards with Last Revelation, i.e. create a TR game with a substantial, in-depth storyline that had direct relevance to the gameplay, and more personal meaning for Lara. I feel that one of AoD's strengths was that you had to persevere a bit and basically earn getting into the tombs, instead of charging in there straight away. It also made total sense from a story POV that Lara would be out of shape and reluctant to go tomb raiding again after her experiences in Egypt.

It is hard to know how to judge a game that was so obviously unfinished. If you investigate and look at what Core's original vision was, the released game is enormously truncated, with entire characters, scenes, areas missing. Kurtis, for example, was supposed to have a training are where you learned to use his Chirugai and psychic powers. The strength upgrades were supposed to have allowed you to reach new areas, but in the end, due to one of the programmers leaving, the role-playing aspect of the game was left half-finished, which is why it appears so poorly implemented.

Some people have already said that we can only evaluate the game for how it stands as it was released, so I'll say that I loved the game as it was, even with all the flaws. I personally didn't have bug problems once I'd sorted out a graphics glitch, and I loved the moody atmosphere, environments, graphics and the ominous brooding feel to it all, even while I'm aware that it could have been so much more.

I was really looking forward to seeing the next installment in Turkey, seeing Lara in the Cappadocian landscape and underground temples; "classic Tomb Raiding" if you like, but the with the added bonus of fitting into a larger storyline and with ongoing characters.

I've now played the Legend demo, and it makes me pine for AoD2 even more. It just felt OK to me....I think it will be quite fun, but on a trivial level. Sadly it looks like more gamers these days are interested more in superficial fun than with a game where you really have to think, engage with the plot and so on. I feel sad that with the deliberate distancing from the AoD plot, the whole epic of Lara's downfall in Egypt and the interim period will never be resolved.

PS...I had no problem with AoDs controls or camera, but the ones in Legend suck :p

TRBeth
2nd Apr 2006, 20:31
Sad to say, my sentiments exactly Raven. I hope I am seriously wrong, but alas, this demo seems to have reinforced my fears after seeing months of trailers.

It just feels and looks like a game. Not an adventure. :(

Shehi
2nd Apr 2006, 23:15
That's a common element in every single review or article on AoD in any gaming magazine. The phrase "running around the streets of Paris", or very close variants, appears so often that I'm sick and tired of reading it. In fact those are only the opening levels, and you spent much more time in the tomb environments under the Louvre, and later in the Lost Domain. But for the people who dislike AoD, the Paris ghetto section seems to represent the whole thing in their minds.

I can't help but suspect that many people who talk like that didn't progress much beyond the first few levels, or they'd know better. In any case, I feel that AoD was trying to so something that Core had been moving towards with Last Revelation, i.e. creat a TR game with a substantial, in-depth storyline that had direct relevance to the gameplay, and more personal meaning for Lara. I feel that one of AoD's strengths was that you had to persevere a bit and basically earn getting into the tombs, instead of charging in there straight away. It also made total sense from a story POV that Lara would be out of shape and reluctant to go tomb raiding again after her experiences in Egypt.

It is hard to know how to judge a game that was so obviously unfinished. If you investigate and look at what Core's original vision was, the released game is enormously truncated, with entire characters, scenes, areas missing. Kurtis, for example, was supposed to have a training are where you learned to use his Chirugai and psychic powers. The strength upgrades were supposed to have allowed you to reach new areas, but in the end, due to one of the programmers leaving, the role-playing aspect of the game was left half-finished, which is why it appears so poorly implemented.

Some people have already said that we can only evaluate the game for how it stands as it was released, so I'll say that I loved the game as it was, even with all the flaws. I personally didn't have bug problems once I'd sorted out a graphics glitch, and I loved the moody atmosphere, environments, graphics and the ominous brooding feel to it all, even while I'm aware that it could have been so much more.

I was really looking forward to seeing the next installment in Turkey, seeing Lara in the Cappadocian landscape and underground temples; "classic Toomb Raiding" if you like, but the with the added bonus of fitting into a larger storyline and with ongoing characters.

I've now played the Legend demo, and it makes me pine for AoD2 even more. It just felt OK to me....I think it will be quite fun but on a trivial level. Sadly it looks like more gamers these days are interested more in superficial fun than with a game where you really have to think, engage with the plot and so on. I feel sad that with the deliberate distancing from the AoD plot, the whole epic of Lara's downfall in Egypt and the interim period will never be resolved.

PS...I had no problem with AoDs controls or camera, but the ones in Legend suck :p

Raven, can I include this as a review to AOD in my website? I really loved your observations and I am sure many people would be glad to read them. If yes, any special name you would like to have as a credit, or just Raven?

Raven
2nd Apr 2006, 23:51
Course you can, Shehi! I'm flattered you think my opinions are worth reproducing...have edited the post for a few typos.

I go by the name "Jordy" on other TR forums and on fanfiction.net (I registered here ages ago before I gained that nickname) so you could put that down as my name. :)

Katie_Fleming
3rd Apr 2006, 00:27
Eidos said they weren't continuing the AOD storyline, which I think is stupid. If you are playing the games in order, there's suddenly a hole between AOD and Legend.

You can't start a story and just cut it off. AOD had a great storyline. Core had a novel written, and AOD was only the first few chapters. I thought it was fantastic.

Mangar The Dark
3rd Apr 2006, 01:25
but I am sure noone can judge necessity of these new features coz:

1. we never saw final product
2. we never know complete story
3. we never know what core really had in mind.

Unless we know these, whatever we say, can't be objective. So, in short, I don't think anyone actually claim the game was bad, coz to prove something negative, you must have all facts available regarding the positive side of it (e.g., to prove something does not exist you must search every corner of universe, however with slight sign of it, you can say it exists, thus proving existense or positive statement is easier than otherwise). We don't have those facts available here. So I really don't understand why we are arguing about this. What we can talk here is we can express our desire to have the sequel (it is the topic, isn't it?), not justify our thoughts and try to make a debate. Of course, these are all my thoughts, you may agree or disagree.

How could you say we didn't see the final product? We absolutely DID see the final product... that's what we bought. If I sold you a car that had no wheels and no engine, and you complained about it, I could follow your logic and say, "Hey, what are you complaining about, it's actually a very good car! It's just not finished." And then if you asked me when it would be finished, I could say, "Never. Sorry. That's it. You got a car with no wheels, and no engine, but you can't say it's a bad car because, hey, it MIGHT have been great if it were finished. Thanks for your money."

miss_L
3rd Apr 2006, 01:55
I bought it, it was horrible, took it back for a refund. Almost a year later I began feeling some nostalgia for TR and as I've played the other games several times, maybe AOD wasn't so bad after all. So I bought it again for the PS2 in the bargain bin. But I was right the first time, it was horrible/ unplayable. Sorry but excuses, arguments, explanations about delays or unfinished segments etc cannot make a bad game good.
It does provide insight into why the game was so unbelievably awful, however! ;) Like the push a block "I feel stronger now" stuff?? Its on a par with "Survivor: The Interactive Game" or "Luigi's Mansion" as an insanely awful idea that you cannot believe is actually in a finished product. An allegedly "unfinished" feature, which makes is understandable, if questionable to sell a game like that at full price. On the other hand, having a prostitute give Lara "clues" is just... I have no words.

hierogrammate
3rd Apr 2006, 03:46
I liked AoD plenty, but I am not so gung-ho about a sequel. I looked forward to the "thrillogy," but have learned to let go of the idea.

TRL is technically starting from scratch, and I know it is for the best. I mean, I've played the demo.. I just *know* :).

Speaking of controls... The "controls" in AoD for the PC? Hideous. They ruined my enjoyment of the game, and it's the reason it took me a year to finish it (I got so po'd with the "controls" that I just abandoned the game and didn't return to it for months).

The controls in TRL for the PC? Heavenly smooth, so much it almost brings tears of joy to my eyes (mouselook at long last!!). And that was just a demo. It's what they should've been in AoD, but wasn't. Giving the Atlas-like burden that is the TR franchise to CD was a smart move on part of EIDOS. Hats off to them.

Shehi
3rd Apr 2006, 09:07
How could you say we didn't see the final product? We absolutely DID see the final product... that's what we bought. If I sold you a car that had no wheels and no engine, and you complained about it, I could follow your logic and say, "Hey, what are you complaining about, it's actually a very good car! It's just not finished." And then if you asked me when it would be finished, I could say, "Never. Sorry. That's it. You got a car with no wheels, and no engine, but you can't say it's a bad car because, hey, it MIGHT have been great if it were finished. Thanks for your money."

Lol you must be a good dealer! I will accept this as a joke :)



On the other hand, having a prostitute give Lara "clues" is just...

Ask that to field cops, detectives what they think about the topic. Prostitutes are low-life people, yes, but don't forget that when it concerns information, and especially information on streets, they are the best source of it. Everyone wants realism in games, that is one bit of it...

linden
3rd Apr 2006, 09:40
I actually kinda liked AOD, to finally have a storyline...

:( graphics

:( no mansion booooo


Hey, i think AoD graphics were good.
There was no mansion in TR 4 or TR5 either. Why this is in your negative points? :confused:

Im playing AoD second time at the moment with better graphics card than i had on the first round, and i have to say, the effects that you get with higher quality settings are pretty amazing. I mean the ones that make the game look like there is actually HOT or WINDY in the game. :D

Treeble
3rd Apr 2006, 15:34
None of the games compare to TR1 and never will. I just can't believe that Legend is on DVD and is so much shorter than the CD driven TR1. I finished Legend in 12 hours and I distinctly remember taking weeks to finish TR1.

I'm going to break out TR1 again. I'll see you guys in a couple weeks.

I'd be surprised if you take more than 9 hours to finish Tomb Raider 1. Yes, the original one, it isn't that long. It all depends on the way you play, the first one was pretty straightforward, the non-linearity in Tomb Raider only got complicated in TR3 and TR4, the other games in the series are as long as Legend is. Not so sure about AOD though, what with the long loading screens and the constant die and reload because the controls didn't work properly, but I suppose play time would actually be around 10 hours, too.

Mangar The Dark
3rd Apr 2006, 15:40
I'd be surprised if you take more than 9 hours to finish Tomb Raider 1. Yes, the original one, it isn't that long.

True. I remember it took me quite a long time, but that was largely because everything was new. The idea, for example, of pushing a crate against a wall to make a stepping stone for myself was completely new to me, so it took time to figure out. It also took time to learn certain techniques like the "hop back, run & jump" for leaping over larger gaps. So TR1 took quite a lot of time on my first play through because I was learning as I went.

I remember everyone complaining about how short Chronicles was, but didn't it have roughly the same number of levels as TR1? It's just that by the time we got to Chronicles, we had seen it all before and could recognize puzzles and their solutions almost immediately.

linden
3rd Apr 2006, 15:49
Not so sure about AOD though, what with the long loading screens and the constant die and reload because the controls didn't work properly, but I suppose play time would actually be around 10 hours, too.

Sorry but AOD didnt have long loading screens, not longer than any other games tho.
After playing, sorry, ... TRYING to play the Legend demo, i have to say the endless running around wondering where the hell the horrible control system will take me now makes the game last FOREVER!!! cause after 1 hour trying you get so annoyed trying to perform a simpliest jump from a ledge to another you throw you keyboard to the wall and you quit the game.
AoD is the last original Tomb Raider- :D

GoranAgar
3rd Apr 2006, 15:57
Sorry but AOD didnt have long loading screens, not longer than any other games tho.
I do not remember how long they were. I just remember that there was a lot of them. :D

Isaac
3rd Apr 2006, 16:03
Sorry but AOD didnt have long loading screens, not longer than any other games tho.
After playing, sorry, ... TRYING to play the Legend demo, i have to say the endless running around wondering where the hell the horrible control system will take me now makes the game last FOREVER!!! cause after 1 hour trying you get so annoyed trying to perform a simpliest jump from a ledge to another you throw you keyboard to the wall and you quit the game.
AoD is the last original Tomb Raider- :D

Please, stop saying that the controls are horrible ! YOU CAN CHANGE IT AS YOU WANT ! So crying about it is useless...

Me by example, the controls are not the best but I don't get any difficulties about them...

linden
3rd Apr 2006, 16:14
Please, stop saying that the controls are horrible ! YOU CAN CHANGE IT AS YOU WANT ! So crying about it is useless...


Erm ... can i? Yes i can remap the keyboard but i cant change the way Lara reacts, now can i? No matter where i put the direction keys, they still all work stupid. Backward button doesnt take me backwards EXCEPT if Lara is holding guns. The same goes with sideways buttons, she doesnt go sideways, she just goes forward to that direction.
No matter how i map the other keys, there is always a key that conflicts with the some key.

Why do i have to stop saying they are horrible if they are? I cant say my opinion?
Well, everybody said their opinions about AoD's controls, did they? What makes this game different?

FrozenFire
3rd Apr 2006, 17:06
Even if Legend got horrible controls, it can't be as hard to get used to as AoD... I remember I gave up on AoD two times because of the frustrating 'accidents' thanks to the controls...

Even if Legend has controls like the Legacy of Kain games (which weren't all that great), it should still be better than AoD.

WraithStar
3rd Apr 2006, 17:21
Even if Legend has controls like the Legacy of Kain games (which weren't all that great), it should still be better than AoD.

Be careful about throwing all of the LoK games' controls into the same category... Blood Omen 1 was a side scrolling RPG, so the control system isn't comparable. Soul Reaver 1's control system was lacking (both on PlayStation and PC). Soul Reaver 2 was very nice, with controls based on the camera. Blood Omen 2 was very nice, with controls based on Kain's perspective. Defiance was an absolute nightmare. I've never played a PC game with controls that bad, including AOD (I actually think AOD was alright, but a lot of people seem to think the controls were horrible).

Having said that, Legend feels like a combination of the SR1 and SR2 control systems. I can't quite explain it, but with SR1 and with Legend, I lack the sense of control that I feel in SR2. In SR2, I am confident that Raziel will go exactly where I meant for him to go when I pressed the keys. With SR1 and with Legend, I feel more like I'm pressing the keys and hoping it works out, which isn't a nice feeling to have. I'm going to try remapping the Legend keys again and see if I can get rid of that feeling, but I doubt it.

linden
3rd Apr 2006, 17:23
Even if Legend got horrible controls, it can't be as hard to get used to as AoD...


Well to me it is, cause AoD's controls are far more close to ALL other Tomb Raiders before that, as in "forward is always forward, backward is always backward etc.


Even if Legend has controls like the Legacy of Kain games (which weren't all that great), it should still be better than AoD.

Should be? I dont see what do you mean.:confused:

Maybe people like you played games like LOK, PoP and such "semi automatic" games first, and then found AoD and it was horrible.
I played ALL the Tomb Raiders before AoD released, and maybe played a few games in the between, but after AoD, i have only played TR custom Levels, ... hundreds of them and thats why i can say; AoD's controls better than Legend's, cause they are Tomb Raider controls.

WraithStar
3rd Apr 2006, 17:30
Maybe people like you played games like LOK, PoP and such "semi automatic" games first, and then found AoD and it was horrible.
I played ALL the Tomb Raiders before AoD released, and maybe played a few games in the between, but after AoD, i have only played TR custom Levels, ... hundreds of them and thats why i can say; AoD's controls better than Legend's, cause they are Tomb Raider controls.

I've played all of those (LoK, PoP, and the previous TR games) before I played AoD. AoD took a bit of getting used to, but after winning the PC version of Defiance with a keyboard and mouse, AoD was a piece of cake:rolleyes: AoD's controls were a bit lacking, and Legend's controls are a bit lacking, but in a different way. I think that the problem with the Legend controls is that Lara moves too quickly. Soul Reaver 2 had essentially the same controls, but it was much easier to control because Raziel moved at exactly the right speed (not slow enough to be annoying and not fast enough to make it hard to change direction). I'm not sure if the actual characters move at different speeds or if it's just the way that the game engine reacts to the controls, but that's my impression so far.

linden
3rd Apr 2006, 17:47
With SR1 and with Legend, I feel more like I'm pressing the keys and hoping it works out, which isn't a nice feeling to have.


Looks like we share experiences :D I have the SR1 there on the shelf and played Defiance about 3 times 30 minutes, and i couldnt agree with you more.
"let's see if i press this key, where will she end up" Thats how i felt playing Legend demo.


I'm going to try remapping the Legend keys again and see if I can get rid of that feeling, but I doubt it.

I tired ... and i tried. No luck. :(

Mangar The Dark
3rd Apr 2006, 18:49
I haven't played any of Legend yet, but now you guys are making me nervous! I hope there's an Xbox demo soon so I can check it out and see if the controls will be a deal breaker for me.

When I first played Indiana Jones and The Emperor's Tomb, I thought the control scheme was terrible, but after a short while, it soon felt very comfortable, so maybe that will happen with Legend? (speaking of which, how does Legend's control scheme compare to Indy's?)

linden
3rd Apr 2006, 20:06
Dont worry Mangar The Dark, this is only PC im talking about. Im sure XBOX works fine, cause well, they made this game for console.

I have also the Jones and The Emperor's Tomb and its same like Legend on PC. Indiana Jones and The Infernal Machine then again was like playing original Tomb Raider, except Indy was a bit stiff compared to Lara :p

FrozenFire
3rd Apr 2006, 20:27
Maybe people like you played games like LOK, PoP and such "semi automatic" games first, and then found AoD and it was horrible.

Not at all, my first computer game was Tomb Raider 1 and I played the whole series including Angel of Darkness when it came out.
I just couldn't get used to the AoD controls at first - because they were so much worse than the previous Tomb Raiders.
Like I said it took me 3 times of attempting to get used to the controls until I actually did get used to them and finished the game. After a while they aren't that bad anymore and in the end they felt even good.

I also agree with you WraithStar, the Legacy of Kain games were not all equally bad in controls. Soul Reaver 2 is my favorite game of the series and I think it got the second best controls, only beaten by Blood Omen 2 which I found even better.
Defiance was a big disappointment for me because it was almost impossible to play. I even ended up using cheat codes because I would've died so many times thanks to the controls...
God, I remember that level where you had to jump from one stone column to the next in the yard of that haunted villa... I think I fell down over a dozen times and had to go the whole way there again.
The only reason i didn't give up on that game was that I'm a big fan of the LoK series.

Prince of Persia had some of these odd controls as well. I hate it when the directional keys change with the camera. There was one scene with a time limit in Warrior Within where the camera would always change in a certain spot and the keyboard controls responded too slow to get it right while running. Had to play that single scene a dozen times too. In the end I just gave a damn about the time running out and walked there slowly to make it through...

As long as Legend doesn't have such parts, it is fine with me.

And with Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb (a very nice game in my opinion, I might add!) I had only one control problem that was fixed later in a patch. Something about climbing up and down on ropes didn't work...

hierogrammate
4th Apr 2006, 01:49
Maybe I am getting OOT, but speaking of controls again...

I can only speak as a PC gamer, since that is my main "platform." Being used to FPS-type keyboard/mouse controls (Unreal, Doom3, Half-Life, Bloodrayne 2, City of Heroes), it was not hard for me to fit Legend's controls into my style of play (which is why personally I enjoy the new controls so much). One of the few things that I have to get used to is having Lara turn around and walk towards me when I press the back button ("S" or the "down arrow" key)... I normally expect the character to backpedal and keep looking forward when I do that. Bloodrayne 2 did that too and it bothered me at the beginning. No biggie tough.

I'm sure many coming primarily from a console gaming environment would find Legend's PC controls arcane at the very least (the same way I initially feel all thumbs when I try to play in a console, so I do feel their pain and don't look down on them for smashing their faces into walls every 30 seconds :) ).

Raven
4th Apr 2006, 01:56
AoD's controls are one of the most complained-about aspects of the game, and yet on PC, the controls were practically the same as they had always been for Tomb Raider. So I'm puzzled as to why so many people say they couldn't get used to them.

I'll happily admit that Lara's response to the controls left a lot to be desired. There was a noticeable time lag, she was slow and stiff. That needed to be improved, but at least the directions remained constant and didn't suddenly switch round every time the camera changed. I've never understood why any game would use this system; it makes things really awkward and frustrating. It happened so many times in Prince of Persia, you'd be running merrily into a room and hey presto, the camera would yoink itself to a front view, you'd have a moment's disorientation and then find yourself running back out again without meaning to. You get used to it in the end, but why should you have to? It's totally counter-intuitive.

Someone mentioned Indy and the Emperor's Tomb. I've got that game, and when I played the Legend demo my first thought was how similar the controls and character movements were.

I may be reaching here, but I've noticed over years of being a TR fan that male gamers complain frequently about TR controls (in all games) whereas females generally seem very happy with them. Is there a gender issue here?

(Btw, why is having Lara get info. from a prostitute in AoD such a ridiculous idea? Janice worked the area, was familiar with the underworld scene, and in her own words, "everyone knows me around here" (probably in the Biblical sense :D ) She's the ideal person to put Lara on the right track. I think things like that illustrated Lara's situation perfectly...she was desperate, on the run and had to resort to dealing with people outside the law to help herself.

FrozenFire
4th Apr 2006, 06:11
I really liked the AoD game. Maybe even better than Tomb Raider 3,4,5...
Even with the bad controls the storyline sucked me into the game. I also particularly loved the more tombraiderish levels once you got out of the whole sewers/rooftops/museum areas. A little less of that stuff and AoD would've been awesome!
Anyone else liked Tomb Raider 2 better than Tomb Raider 1 btw?

linden
4th Apr 2006, 06:44
Raven, finally i find someone you agrees with me in everything. :hug: :D
Only thing i have to say is that not all men tho, cause i am, ... and i never, and never will complain about the original Tomb Raider controls. ;)

I am still waiting for that day when someone nice game coder person fixes the AoD's slow response to the controls.
Eidos/Core Design should hand out the code of AoD to people who LOVE Tomb Raider, cause i'm sure there are fans out there who could do that. ... just like they gave the Level Editor ... and look how many and beautiful custom Level there are out there. (i especially would like to thank Richard "****" Lawther for his levels)

I SO would love to play AoD with a patch that makes it run like TR1-5 :D

Sorry Richard but your name is too rude for Eidos forums :p



@ FrozenFire, I like TR3 more than any other TR :D but AoD was good game, and it had story line. It was also natural continuing from TR4-TR5 with VonCroy and everything.

Mangar The Dark
4th Apr 2006, 13:03
AoD's controls are one of the most complained-about aspects of the game, and yet on PC, the controls were practically the same as they had always been for Tomb Raider. So I'm puzzled as to why so many people say they couldn't get used to them.

I've always wondered the same thing. I bought AOD a LONG time after its release because I kept hearing how horrific the controls were and I didn't want to pay more than $10 for an uncontrollable game. Then I started playing it and my first thought was, "It's exactly like every other TR game? What's the problem?" True, she was a bit stiffer at times, but overall, it felt pretty much the same as it always did. I was expecting drastic changes, and they weren't there. What I found slighlty more problematic was the camera, which sometimes didn't cooperate, particularly in small rooms.

When I bought Emperor's Tomb (on the PC), I couldn't figure out the controls at first. It took me a while to get used to spinning the camera around and whatnot (primarily because I had gotten so used to Lara's control scheme), but it soon became second nature.

I played POP on the Xbox, and had no trouble with the controls (I got sick of the game because the fights became insanely difficult, but the controls were not a problem.)

The one thing I still can't get used to controlling are FPSs on the Xbox-- I hate using the analogue stick to control the camera as I'm wandering around (the mouse is so much more natural to me.) But I'm sure if I invested any time into it, I'd get the hang of it... I just don't really like that genre, so I rarely play those types of games.

CatSuit&Ponytail
4th Apr 2006, 13:32
I hate it when the directional keys change with the camera.
I also don't think it's a good idea.

I thought Galleon had excellent controls. :)

movieman
4th Apr 2006, 14:11
I only just noticed last night that the controls do change with the camera position :). I still find them easier to use than AoD though, I can make her do what I want except when climbing chains where the turn keys just make her rotate around the chains forever. Lack of control is what always frustrated me about the earlier games and why I never bought one after playing the demos.

However, I also just noticed that play.com had an offer selling the first five Tomb Raider games together for 9.99, so I've ordered them and will see if the old controls do suck as bad as I remember from the demos. Certainly I found AoD pretty much unplayable and never got past the fourth or fifth area, but at two pounds a game it's worth trying the rest :).

linden
4th Apr 2006, 16:12
Lack of control is what always frustrated me about the earlier games and why I never bought one after playing the demos.

:eek: betrayer.
Lack of control??? Legend demo is nothing but lack of control. You cant even shoot and jump at the same time. Actually, you cant do anything if "they" didnt think its necessary to do.
Go and order the 5 games and play them thru and then come back, but please dont compare them to these nowadays semi automatic children's games. :mad:

movieman
4th Apr 2006, 16:16
Legend demo is nothing but lack of control.

Maybe for you, but not for me. In AoD I'd press keys and she'd usually do something that seemed completely random, whereas that's rare in the Legend demo.


You cant even shoot and jump at the same time.

I'm pretty sure I was doing that in the demo last night. Certainly she was jumping in the middle of a gunfight, but I'm not sure whether she was shooting while jumping :).

linden
4th Apr 2006, 16:46
Maybe for you, but not for me. In AoD I'd press keys and she'd usually do something that seemed completely random, whereas that's rare in the Legend demo.


But thats exactly how Legend's controls do act completely random.




I'm pretty sure I was doing that in the demo last night. Certainly she was jumping in the middle of a gunfight, but I'm not sure whether she was shooting while jumping :).

Well, i guess i just have to show you then. Here, there's your Legend Lara shooting, but only when on the ground. After that, there is TR4 custom level Lara, doing what ever she likes when ever i like :P
http://www.zippyvideos.com/8670966614664556/jumpshoot/


But because Legend is semi automatic game, Lara there first needs the target before she can shoot it. I can also say that the targeting sucks in Legend demo. Worked really much better in TR1-5 . In AoD they ruined it.