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The Reaver Blade
2nd Mar 2006, 18:52
Who thinks that it would be interesting if in the next LOK game you could play as Kain and the hylden lord in different chapters (like on defiance)? I think it would be cool to play as the good guy and the bad guy (although the hylden lord is maybe not as bad as the EG).

P.S Do ya think i should turn this into a poll?

TheWatcher
2nd Mar 2006, 21:48
Chances are we will be playing as Kain and possibly go through chapters as in Defiance, although I personally prefer the open worlds of BO1 and SR1.

The hylden lord? Why would we want to play as an enemy that was defeated two games ago? His history is full circle now - we know what happens to him after Defiance. It will be interesting to see if we're to take control of any other characters, but I think what will make the best LOK6 is Kain-only.

BigKevSexyMan
2nd Mar 2006, 21:50
Yeah, Kain only all the way.

FearGhoul
3rd Mar 2006, 01:21
If we were to play as the Hylden Lord at some point, I'd prefer it take place during the old war.

BigKevSexyMan
3rd Mar 2006, 02:49
I think everyone's forgetting that the Hylden Lord is dead.

If you're talking about the possesed Janos Hylden lord, why would anyone want to or even think to care what happens. Especially since we already know what happens.

FearGhoul
3rd Mar 2006, 04:09
Though for the next game, I'd want to play as Kain again, and have Kain take on enemies fit for him. Since he's practically an unstoppable god now, he'd have to take on bizzare demons, mutants and other stuff, and hell, for Human enemies, let's throw in tons of enemies of that form. Make it like Dynasty Warriors with the amount of Humans. That would rule!

BigKevSexyMan
3rd Mar 2006, 04:45
Lol, dynasty warriors has been ripped off enough thank you. I'm tired of people fearing Kain being to powerful. I say embrace his power. Let him treat his victims like weak ragdolls. Tossing and dismembering them. Y'know, make the player WANT to fight. The challenge should come from bosses that you have to think about to beat.

FearGhoul
3rd Mar 2006, 05:04
Well what I meant was that Kain's so damn powerful that you'd be killing all those people with one hit, so that number would make it actually a bit even. Though I'd be more interested in huge monstrosities to fight.

BigKevSexyMan
3rd Mar 2006, 05:37
Huge monsters are nice and all, but one hit kills dynasty warrior style is no fun. You gotta enjoy maiming your enemies. Really focus on each victim, destroying them, then draining thier blood and souls.

Binky24
3rd Mar 2006, 07:03
No, no playing Hylden Lord. What's the sense of getting power-ups if at the end Kain comes and kills you anyway? :p

And no one-hit-kills. That's... well, I played Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal... one-hit-kills were fun... for oh, about five minutes.
Having a dragon killed in one hit was even more - exasperating. No challenge.

But there's an easy way around it. Remember those Glyph shields around the sorceresses in Defiance? BO2 Hylden warrior + Defiance Glyph shield around it = fun!

Umah Bloodomen
3rd Mar 2006, 07:50
P.S Do ya think i should turn this into a poll?

You can't turn it into a poll without starting a new thread.

But I can on your behalf... :D

Vampmaster
3rd Mar 2006, 17:44
And no one-hit-kills.

Unless they take up a huge chunck (if not all. depending on how tough the enemy is) of energy like in BO1.

Also, if Kain goes back to the ancient vampire/hylden war some enemies should behave like the humans in SR1. Like if he attacks ancient vampires they turn on him, but if he leaves them alone, they kneel and say "hail scion of balance" or something like that.

He should spend some more time in the demon dimension as well. There'd be some damn tough enemies there. Maybe he'd be strong enough to take on one (or several) of those invincible purple things from BO2 this time.

The Reaver Blade
3rd Mar 2006, 20:59
You can't turn it into a poll without starting a new thread.

But I can on your behalf... :D

Thanks Umah.:)

I like that idea of one hit kills only if you have an energy bar for it. I think it would be cool if you could briefly play as Vorador in the nxt game as well ( if he gets ressurected of course).

BigKevSexyMan
4th Mar 2006, 02:51
I think it would be cool if you could briefly play as Vorador in the nxt game as well ( if he gets ressurected of course).

Why don't you people have some faith in Kain for once?


He should spend some more time in the demon dimension as well. There'd be some damn tough enemies there. Maybe he'd be strong enough to take on one (or several) of those invincible purple things from BO2 this time.

The only reason I can see for Kain to go into the demon dimension is if the dimension guardian accidentally or purposefully sends him there. It really shouldn't be thought of a "Kain's spectral realm." Maybe, just maybe when you meet the dimension guardian and gain his/her powers there could be special portals that can be quick action-based passageways that Kain can take from place to place. But don't make it a "Kain's spectral realm"

One hit kills should only be allowed at the end of the game, when Kain is powerful enough. And should only happen on weak enemies.

FearGhoul
4th Mar 2006, 05:40
Yeah, as I think about it, it wouldn't really be that fun like that. But it would be more realistic with how powerful that thing is. I still like the idea of being swamped in Human or Human-like enemies though, and it would be cool having a spell where a bunch fly up in the air and grate against eachother and fall in a rain of blood and gore. That would be cool.

BigKevSexyMan
4th Mar 2006, 06:42
Y'know, I doubt there'd be enough humans SR1 era anyways.

Binky24
4th Mar 2006, 07:07
There's a whole citadel of them, isn't it?
And the next game doesn't have to take place in the SR1 era... Though I'd like it to.

And demon dimension... if some important enough reason forced Kain to go there, OK. If not, I don't care that much... (that "important enough reason": "kill a Hylden leader before s/he returns to Nosgoth"... "find an artefact"...)

BigKevSexyMan
4th Mar 2006, 07:17
There's enough humans for regular occurance true, but enough for a dynasty warriors themed game? No.....there's definately not.

The demon dimension really has no point.

And yes, it does have to take place in SR1 era. To go anytime else wouldn't really make any sense.

Binky24
4th Mar 2006, 08:03
LOL. Kev, I'd invite you to read my fic, if I didn't know what your opinion on reading was. :) I've actually thought a bit about this very thing - enemies - before starting to write it. I decided just that what you've just written - that humans were too few to be that kind of quickly dying enemies...
So I substituted generic Hylden instead. There's supposed to be a whole army of them waiting out there, after all. :)

But demon dimension does not have to have no point. At least it'd expand the grey/brow SR1 palette a bit... with sickly yellow and red.

goblin981
4th Mar 2006, 15:10
sr1 was a very large area with teleporters for quick travel. Maybe the Demon Demension could have a similar funtion to the teleporters. kinda like the hallway in the matrix, though not exactly.

Anyone know what I mean?

BigKevSexyMan
4th Mar 2006, 17:58
I don't think that's how the demon dimension works. It's a prison, now a way of transportation.

And Binky, no offense, but a fan fic isn't exactly a reliable source for LoK lore.

The Reaver Blade
4th Mar 2006, 18:35
Why don't you people have some faith in Kain for once?

I only said that it would be cool to play as Vorador briefly. Kain is my favourite character from the LOK series anyway and i have lots of faith in him.:)

FearGhoul
6th Mar 2006, 00:34
You know, if there aren't many Humans left in Soul Reaver time, how would Vampires live? Did you see how often Kain had to feed in Blood Omen?!

BigKevSexyMan
6th Mar 2006, 04:42
It's a little different when you're running all around Nosgoth fighting and killing everyone.

Vampmaster
7th Mar 2006, 13:49
The only reason I can see for Kain to go into the demon dimension is if the dimension guardian accidentally or purposefully sends him there. It really shouldn't be thought of a "Kain's spectral realm." Maybe, just maybe when you meet the dimension guardian and gain his/her powers there could be special portals that can be quick action-based passageways that Kain can take from place to place. But don't make it a "Kain's spectral realm"

Yeah, I don't mean it should be like the spectral realm where you shift there when ever you want. I mean it should be like one chaper where he visits a hylden base/temple/citadel or something like that which isn't present in the normal world. He'd be seaching for someone like Janos or a hylden leader or some important item etc. Maybe he has to go there to rally them against the EG or something. Maybe there could there'd be a boss and some secret area there as well.

goblin981
8th Mar 2006, 06:16
Something like the werewolf city, but on a larger scale?

BigKevSexyMan
8th Mar 2006, 06:29
I just don't see why Kain would wanna go there on purpose. With the balance pillar healed the binding is probably strong again, so the hylden won't be able to enter the real world, so Kain won't wanna concern himself with them. The ONLY plausable reason for Kain getting tossed into the demon dimension is if there is a mishap with the dimension guardian.

Binky24
8th Mar 2006, 09:50
But that's the point, we don't know if the Balance Pillar is healed and the Binding is more or less complete.
In fact, I don't think it is. Because if it were, what sense would there be in another game? Kain returns to the post-Soul Reaver era, the Pillars are already healed, Janos and the Hylden are imprisoned for ever (and the demons probably as well, seeing how they only could enter Nosgoth once Janos was - well, not quite dead, but at least comatose), humans are few and so easily tamed, the beast-vampires were nearly all killed by Raziel (OK, perhaps apart from the Turelim)... so what does it make? A game of fighting tentacles?

On the other hand, if healing Kain does not automatically complete the Binding, then:
- demons and Hylden can enter Nosgoth, so there'd be mundane enemies and perhaps boss enemies as well, some Hylden commanders;
- Kain could speak with Janos again, so whatever backplot on the creation of the Reaver there is still to explain can be explained (I don't say there is any, but if there is...);
- Kain would have to do something to heal the Pillars, possibly getting those Pillar glyphs that The Lost Worlds say could possibly have been intended for SR2 - for example, giving powers similar to those the dead Guardians had in Defiance: nothing that much more deadly than a Reaver, but - variety in weapons is always nice, (I'd like the Energy Guardian's Repel spell, myself, it's not really effective, but I like the idea of it);
- we could see a bit more of the demon realm, the way Vampmaster says. Or perhaps a place which is a conflux of the two realms. You enter one room, and it's Ancients' Gothic - then another, and it's Hylden post-Modern.

Just a random five minutes' bunch of ideas.

BigKevSexyMan
8th Mar 2006, 12:47
But that's the point, we don't know if the Balance Pillar is healed and the Binding is more or less complete.

The balance guardian is healed so the pillar is healed.


Because if it were, what sense would there be in another game? Kain returns to the post-Soul Reaver era, the Pillars are already healed, Janos and the Hylden are imprisoned for ever (and the demons probably as well, seeing how they only could enter Nosgoth once Janos was - well, not quite dead, but at least comatose), humans are few and so easily tamed, the beast-vampires were nearly all killed by Raziel (OK, perhaps apart from the Turelim)... so what does it make? A game of fighting tentacles?

Actually, I think the next LoK game should have Kain turning the other newly born guardians into vampires. After all, that's what the scion's destiny is. And there are plenty of other enemies. There's the remaining mutant vampires, squiddy, squiddy's agents(I bet he could send those flying things in Defiance through the material conducts), the humans, THE RAZIELIM!, and maybe vampires of Vorador's "loins."


- demons and Hylden can enter Nosgoth, so there'd be mundane enemies and perhaps boss enemies as well, some Hylden commanders;

If there are no hylden in SR1, then why would there be any now? The events in SR1 still happened to the letter, otherwise Raziel woulda gotten those flashback memories or something like Kain did at the end of SR2. That's true whether the pillars are healed or not.


- Kain could speak with Janos again, so whatever backplot on the creation of the Reaver there is still to explain can be explained (I don't say there is any, but if there is...);

I don't think there's any more use for the reaver other than being Kain's kickass weapon. If Kain were to talk to Janos then it would be about the pillars. Kain = pillars Raziel = The Reaver.


- Kain would have to do something to heal the Pillars, possibly getting those Pillar glyphs that The Lost Worlds say could possibly have been intended for SR2 - for example, giving powers similar to those the dead Guardians had in Defiance: nothing that much more deadly than a Reaver, but - variety in weapons is always nice, (I'd like the Energy Guardian's Repel spell, myself, it's not really effective, but I like the idea of it);

I agree with gaining powers aligned with the guardians power, but as I said before he should get these powers when he turns the human guardians into vampiric.


- we could see a bit more of the demon realm, the way Vampmaster says. Or perhaps a place which is a conflux of the two realms. You enter one room, and it's Ancients' Gothic - then another, and it's Hylden post-Modern.

That's not reliant on the pillars being healed, if it were to be done.

Binky24
8th Mar 2006, 17:56
The balance guardian is healed so the pillar is healed.
But even if it's true - even if all Pillars are healed (which I don't think they are, I think it would take some conscious act on Kain's part - but that's just me, of course) - this still doesn't mean that the Binding is complete. Until it is, the Hylden may still enter Nosgoth.

There's the remaining mutant vampires, squiddy, squiddy's agents(I bet he could send those flying things in Defiance through the material conducts), the humans, THE RAZIELIM!, and maybe vampires of Vorador's "loins."
Except that humans and the mutant vampires are pitifully weak. Unless you give them (humans, that is) some time to get stronger before Kain leaves SR1 Nosgoth and returns - the time in which the Hylden can return to Nosgoth. :)
I also don't think that Kain let either Vorador's or Raziel's spawn survive. But that's just me, again. :)

If there are no hylden in SR1, then why would there be any now?
Well - Kain said he would be waiting for them - so, once he's gone off to the past to meet his destiny, they may well try their luck again. Unless he enters SR1 Nosgoth the very moment he left it. Always possible, of course.

I don't think there's any more use for the reaver other than being Kain's kickass weapon.
Um, the Binding? I'd like to witness it at last after all that talk.

That's not reliant on the pillars being healed, if it were to be done.
No, it isn't, and I did not say so. But unless/until the Binding is complete, we could still see the demon realm. After that - not quite.

BigKevSexyMan
8th Mar 2006, 22:55
But even if it's true - even if all Pillars are healed (which I don't think they are, I think it would take some conscious act on Kain's part - but that's just me, of course) - this still doesn't mean that the Binding is complete. Until it is, the Hylden may still enter Nosgoth.

How would the binding not be complete if the pillars are healed and restored?


Except that humans and the mutant vampires are pitifully weak. Unless you give them (humans, that is) some time to get stronger before Kain leaves SR1 Nosgoth and returns - the time in which the Hylden can return to Nosgoth.
I also don't think that Kain let either Vorador's or Raziel's spawn survive. But that's just me, again.

There is no in game reference that Vorador's or Raziel's spawn were totally wiped out. Probably only mostly wiped out. And hylden possessing wouldn't make any of them stronger. Probably the opposite. And weak is great for torturing fun.


Well - Kain said he would be waiting for them - so, once he's gone off to the past to meet his destiny, they may well try their luck again. Unless he enters SR1 Nosgoth the very moment he left it. Always possible, of course.

The only thing the hylden can possess are humans. Which is exactly why Kain must turn them into vampires.


Um, the Binding? I'd like to witness it at last after all that talk.

You do know that all that "The reaver is the key" metaphors and stuff was about healing the scion of balance, right?


No, it isn't, and I did not say so. But unless/until the Binding is complete, we could still see the demon realm. After that - not quite.

I told you. The demon dimension would be playable via the dimension guardian.

FearGhoul
9th Mar 2006, 02:56
Why would the devolved Vampires want to kill Kain though? They all serve and worship him. Well, maybe they would all miss their masters and be looking for someone to blame, and so lash out at Kain for some reason. And I think it was pretty strongly implied that all of Raziel's children are dead. Kain had them all killed to make sure that Raziel had no allies when he came back and would really want to kill Kain, though I suppose there could be a few hiding somewhere out there. As for the Vorador types, it's possible there's more I guess. Hard to say really, though I'd believe it if some survived somehow.

BigKevSexyMan
9th Mar 2006, 06:19
I don't think that the mutant vampires are capable of rational thought anymore. I only hear them with grunts.

Binky24
9th Mar 2006, 06:40
How would the binding not be complete if the pillars are healed and restored?
Well - the Pillars before, let's say, the death of the first vampire Guardian, were all "healthy" - but even then, the Binding was not complete.


You do know that all that "The reaver is the key" metaphors and stuff was about healing the scion of balance, right?
No - do you have a quote to support this?

The Reaver Blade
9th Mar 2006, 23:03
The EG is going to get in the way of Kain returning the pillars to vampire rule big time which makes me wonder. How could Kain possibly kill the EG!?. Maybe the soul reaver is the only thing that can kill the EG since it hurt him quite badly in Defiance. Maybe Raziel will get the pleasure of devouring his soul (via his soul in the reaver). Lets face it, Raziel deserves to finish off the EG more than Kain does because of everthing he has been through with EG.

FearGhoul
10th Mar 2006, 02:04
Something I've wondered though, doesn't Raziel feed the souls he devours to the Elder God? So where would the Elder God's soul go if the Soul Reaver took it?

WraithStar
10th Mar 2006, 16:15
Something I've wondered though, doesn't Raziel feed the souls he devours to the Elder God? So where would the Elder God's soul go if the Soul Reaver took it?

I'm thinking either a) the physical Soul Reaver severs Raziel's connection to EG and everything the Soul Reaver devours is just for itself or b) EG would end up eating himself, which would be very interesting to watch:D

Vampmaster
10th Mar 2006, 18:00
I don't think that imprisoning the hylden indefinately would be a good plan. I mean it's just like bottling up problems for the future. LOK6 should be about them being judged as worthy of redemption or complete annihilation. (Justice is a form of balance, and therefore would be part of Kains duties to his pillar) I'd be routing for the former as it was the injustice done (the war declared) by the ancients that led both vampires and hylden to the situation they're in now. But it maybe it could be open ended like BO1 was or at least it would be a suprise ending like how we didn't know who of Kain and Raziel would survive in Defiance.

As for people for Kain to battle in the next game, the EG would have plenty of servants on all sides. I had suggested recasting the preistess as leader of an EG worshipping cult (of humans) who would have come to rise in Kains absence from his empire.

Also, a reason that there were no hylden in SR1 could be that the Razielim had given their lives in fighting them back. Kain having ordering them to do this would essentially be the same as him sacrificing them in the war. And another loose end would be tied off.

dumah's wraith
10th Mar 2006, 20:26
Yknow,I wouldn't mind playing as the Hylden lord IF, AND ONLY IF, it involved hylden politics and not the games. A hylden elder, convinced hl is a homocidal maniac, does his best to destroy him, believing he will lead to the destruction of the race[yes, i know, the hl isn't exactly young, but who knows how long hylden live]. It might be good, done well.

Binky24
11th Mar 2006, 09:26
I had suggested recasting the preistess as leader of an EG worshipping cult (of humans) who would have come to rise in Kains absence from his empire.

This "recasting" has already been done to some extent, with Moebius. Compare the dialogue Raziel would have with her when he killed her, and with Moebius in the Spirit Forge - for example, Raziel says "Then go to him!" in both cases. Just a note. :)
I'd much prefer the Priestess actually as an ally of Kain's, of sorts.


Also, a reason that there were no hylden in SR1 could be that the Razielim had given their lives in fighting them back.
Or Kain could have simply killed the Razielim off - and the Hylden could have been waiting for their next opportunity.


I'd be routing for the former as it was the injustice done (the war declared) by the ancients that led both vampires and hylden to the situation they're in now.
That, I can definitely agree with. As long as I get to kill some Hylden before the ceasefire (or alliance - yeah, right, in Nosgoth :rolleyes: ) happens.

The Reaver Blade
12th Mar 2006, 23:30
How does the EG actually feed? Does he also allow the spectral realm creatures to feed to 'fatten' themselves up for him?

WraithStar
13th Mar 2006, 04:40
How does the EG actually feed? Does he also allow the spectral realm creatures to feed to 'fatten' themselves up for him?

I think it works like this: There are two types of spectral creatures -- the ones that work for EG and the ones that don't. The ones that don't (like the Sluagh) devour souls and keep the energy for themselves. The ones that do work for EG (like the archons and Raziel) devour souls and in the process they get re-energized and the excess energy goes to EG. I don't think EG can feed directly. I think his agents have to capture the souls and send the energy to him.

goblin981
13th Mar 2006, 05:13
I think it works like this: There are two types of spectral creatures -- the ones that work for EG and the ones that don't. The ones that don't (like the Sluagh) devour souls and keep the energy for themselves. The ones that do work for EG (like the archons and Raziel) devour souls and in the process they get re-energized and the excess energy goes to EG. I don't think EG can feed directly. I think his agents have to capture the souls and send the energy to him.

That sounds about right.

Vampmaster
13th Mar 2006, 13:55
This "recasting" has already been done to some extent, with Moebius. Compare the dialogue Raziel would have with her when he killed her, and with Moebius in the Spirit Forge - for example, Raziel says "Then go to him!" in both cases. Just a note. :)
I'd much prefer the Priestess actually as an ally of Kain's, of sorts...


...Or Kain could have simply killed the Razielim off - and the Hylden could have been waiting for their next opportunity.


After Kain being so enraged at the humans genocide of his own race, I doubt he'd stoop to the same level. He'd consider that hypocrisy. In his (warped until now) sense of morality, that's the one thing he does consider a sin.

When I said about recasting the preistess, I wasn't refering to her deleted lines. More the character as a whole. And now that Moebius is out of the way, the EG does need new servants. Not to mention there has to be enemies for Kain to fight in the next game. Also, I know people hate Mobius and want to kill him again. But come on! Isn't is getting a bit cheezy, killing him and then bringing him back over and over?

The Reaver Blade
13th Mar 2006, 20:46
I think it works like this: There are two types of spectral creatures -- the ones that work for EG and the ones that don't. The ones that don't (like the Sluagh) devour souls and keep the energy for themselves. The ones that do work for EG (like the archons and Raziel) devour souls and in the process they get re-energized and the excess energy goes to EG. I don't think EG can feed directly. I think his agents have to capture the souls and send the energy to him.


The EG can only feed on the souls of dead creatures though. Hence his hatred for immortality. The EG never liked raz anyway as he is also immortal.

Binky24
13th Mar 2006, 21:50
After Kain being so enraged at the humans genocide of his own race, I doubt he'd stoop to the same level. He'd consider that hypocrisy.
I think he was completely honest when he told Raziel that what he created, he could also destroy, that "as long as one of us stands, we are legion", that "that is why, when I sacrifice my children to the Abyss, I can do so with a clear heart" - I'm sorry the quotes are imprecise: what I mean are all those things in Soul Reaver. I like to think that he had an epiphany somewhere on the way, around Defiance, and discovered that he actually wasn't really as ready as he had thought to sacrifice everything - he would do a bit to save Raziel, and not only because Raziel was a prime weapon. A little delusion of my own. ;)
Plus, at the time when it happened, he didn't really have a choice, did he? If history decided that the Razielim must die, something would have happened to make it so. For example, they would start a rebellion - then, Kain would really have no choice but to wipe them out. That's the sort of thing I meant.
(And there is another aspect to the thing - the vampires of the other Clans later lost their minds. By killing the Razielim off before that, Kain would have spared them this fate, at least. He could actually think of it as euthanasia.)


When I said about recasting the preistess, I wasn't refering to her deleted lines. More the character as a whole.
So was I. The lines were just the finishing touch for me. :)

I mean, the Priestess was supposed to be a fanatical believer in an evil, tyrant god, willing to die or kill her fellow humans for him, while he didn't care at all that she died for him. Raziel would taunt her "Where are your Gods now?" and tell her to "Go to him!"
Moebius was a fanatical believer in an ancient, tyrant god, willing to die or kill his fellow humans for him (how did it go - "all great moves require a few martyrs"?), while the god didn't care at all that Raziel killed his servant.
{I think that, when Soul Reaver got cut, and they decided to turn white into black, and black into white (EG into the enemy, Kain into the [anti]hero), the Priestess morphed into Moebius.}

I did not mean to imply that Moebius should be resurrected just so that he could be killed again. That'd be terrible. But making the Priestess the same type of character as Moebius, but without his most interesting powers - sort of Moebius-light...

The Reaver Blade
14th Mar 2006, 19:54
Originally posted by Wraithstar. I think it works like this: There are two types of spectral creatures -- the ones that work for EG and the ones that don't. The ones that don't (like the Sluagh) devour souls and keep the energy for themselves. The ones that do work for EG (like the archons and Raziel) devour souls and in the process they get re-energized and the excess energy goes to EG. I don't think EG can feed directly. I think his agents have to capture the souls and send the energy to him.

Oh my bad. I get what you mean now.:o

WraithStar
14th Mar 2006, 21:16
Oh my bad. I get what you mean now.:o

No problem. I'm glad my explanation makes sense:)

Vampmaster
16th Mar 2006, 20:32
Binky24, history only tries to prevent changes to the past. When (if) Kain made the descision to eliminate the Razielim, it was the present for him. The future is only set in stone if you're in the past. Altering history is a paradox, altering the future is not. Heck, I can alter the future simply by setting my alarm clock.

BigKevSexyMan
16th Mar 2006, 21:20
Actually, in the LoK world everything is set in stone. Future, present, and past. That's what Kain meant by "Free will is an Illusion."

FearGhoul
16th Mar 2006, 21:20
Binky24, history only tries to prevent changes to the past. When (if) Kain made the descision to eliminate the Razielim, it was the present for him. The future is only set in stone if you're in the past. Altering history is a paradox, altering the future is not. Heck, I can alter the future simply by setting my alarm clock.

But the present will one day be the past, and the future itself is a past to an even farther future, and the past was once the future.

WraithStar
16th Mar 2006, 21:31
But the present will one day be the past, and the future itself is a past to an even farther future, and the past was once the future.

I love this mind-bending stuff:D


Actually, in the LoK world everything is set in stone. Future, present, and past. That's what Kain meant by "Free will is an Illusion."

Exactly. In the Legacy of Kain universe, everything is predetermined and there's no free will except for Raziel. When Raziel defies fate, he creates a paradox and the timeline changes. Since Raziel is from the SR1 era, we've never seen him in what would be the future from his point of view. So, we don't know what would happen if he tried to do something he wasn't supposed to do in what he would consider to be the future.

Vampmaster
17th Mar 2006, 01:23
The history that abhors a paradox is not the same as the destiny that the EG has written for everyone. History will only try to stop something from contradicting stuff that's already happened. It's not sentient, it's just physics "equal and opposite reactions" etc. Defying the EGs will is different from that and doesn't cause a paradox.

Also the future depends on what happens in the past and the present. The present is not the past until it has passed, so until then it can be altered.

FearGhoul
17th Mar 2006, 01:41
But when Kain and Raziel were in the time of the Pillars' corruption, they had come from the future, but for everyone else at that time, it was their present and was always like that. Raziel was always there, so the future was set in stone, except that Raziel can screw everything up with paradoxes. Raziel and Kain had to come from the Nosgoth of Soul Reaver time, so the future was already made.
The only way they could shape the future is if there is no knowledge of that future or anyone from that time, then there really is free will in a way.

Binky24
17th Mar 2006, 08:16
I'm confused...
I think that there is basically one version of all the events in all of Nosgoth's history until the point Kain and Raziel leave the SR1 Nosgoth (and also later, but we don't know what that is, save that it's fortunate for the EG). This is, incidentally, the destiny planned out by EG. (There is also the small loop around BO, centered around Kain and William, but that's about it.)
When Kain and Raziel changed history's flow in SR2, the history tried to change as little as possible, because of inertia, I'd guess. Just as you write, Vampmaster - "equal and opposite reactions", although I don't think that's really that, more like "an unbalanced system returning to equilibrium state".
I simply suppose that as much of whatever happened between the end-of-SR2 era and the end of SR1 stayed happened, precisely because of this inertia. If Kain made the decision to eliminate the Razielim in the first place, then, unless letting them live was a part the "fewest possible changes which would allow history to be back on track", it would stay happened. That's as much as I understand from that mystical stuff about "history trying to flow around monumental decisions" and all that...

dumah's wraith
17th Mar 2006, 21:02
Someone said earlier that the clan grunts could only grunt. Every one I impale screams "Noooooooo!" So i'm inclined to believe they just aren't very chatty to someone whose trying to kill them.

Vampmaster
18th Mar 2006, 12:00
If Kain made the decision to eliminate the Razielim in the first place, then, unless letting them live was a part the "fewest possible changes which would allow history to be back on track", it would stay happened.

Exactly: "In the first place."

In the first place the future is not fixed, but if you go back and try to change that, it's then contradicting yor past and would be a paradox. The future can be changed, but only the first time around.

Binky24
18th Mar 2006, 18:12
So what are we discussing here, exactly, since we all agree?
:looks back to her own posts:
Is it this sentence of mine:
If history decided that the Razielim must die, something would have happened to make it so.? If so, then I agree that it's not really the most fortunate turn of phrase and concede your point. My error.

I still think, however, that the Hylden did not attack Nosgoth between the SR1 intro and the game itself. For one thing, because I'd love to see how the Reaver would fare against the "army the likes of which this soft world has never seen before". (sorry if there a mistake here, quoting from memory)

Vampmaster
19th Mar 2006, 12:36
I wasn't saying I think they did attack while Raziel was in the abyss, but there's no reason they couldn't have. However, I'm not saying "it happened already so it doesn't need to happen in a future game". The fate of the Razielim is just an aspect of the story that hasn't really been addressed and I thought them dying in a battle would be more fitting. I don't think Kain would just decide to wipe them out because he felt like it.

If Kain made the descision and carried out their elimination, history would make sure he couldn't change that by going back in time, but Kain must have had a reason in the first place. They were his strongest army and were probably still loyal to him. If it wasn't a hylden attack, then maybe they rebelled after Raziel died and Kain had the other clans kill them off, but for something so important in SR1, it's suprising that it's never been mentioned since then. Raz was even more angry at Kain for than that the abyss at one point, since that was the very first thing he said to Kain after emerging from the underworld.

I was suggesting a hylden attack, because it would be a more honourable death for them and it would give us a reason to witness their fate. I would like to see some sort of "battle of the last stand" type thing in the next game. That's the one where Ottmar dies in BO1 and Kain ends up feeding on allies and enemies alike. It could be ancients vs hylden before the binding, Razielim vs hylden while Raziel's in the abyss or Hylden & Kain's vampires vs Demons & EG worshippers in the post SR1 era. Any of those would be good to see. With a cutscene with masses of them fighting.

Binky24
19th Mar 2006, 16:06
I don't think Kain would just decide to wipe them out because he felt like it.
Oh, neither do I - I just think that the reason someone already posted: to make sure that Raziel would be completely without allies in the future - would be enough for Kain.
I completely agree with the rest of your post. I'd very much like Kain to remember what happened to the Razielim at some point, in a cutscene like the one you speak of. (And extremely lame example would be if the game forced Kain to visit the Razielim abode at some point, and the general ambience... induced him into a cutscene of an attack on the castle. Or possibly of stakes burning on the main courtyard, still-moving vampires thrown into them. Or both.)
But I'm not so sure about timestreaming into that moment to witness it first-hand. Timestreaming is fun, but I think I'd rather see a broader world in one time than a narrower world in several times this time. (I do hope this sentence make sense.)

dumah's wraith
24th Mar 2006, 19:59
It does.