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soothsayer
6th Feb 2006, 03:10
Extreme Stylites?

Jeffers
6th Feb 2006, 10:52
Wow, can't believe it's about a year and a half since we discussed this. I feel old. :eek:

Anyway, take a look here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37698&page=1&pp=25), I think it was mentioned in the game that they stretched infinately, but then there were arguements against that, but take a look anyway. ;)

Jeffers

Omega
6th Feb 2006, 11:29
Well, scientifically speaking it's impossible for them to be infinite.. because as the Universe grows, who keeps building them?

And, if the Universe is ever-expanding, then, at one point, it will be a fixed size...

FearGhoul
6th Feb 2006, 19:33
Cotton candy.

Omega
6th Feb 2006, 23:02
Nah, if anything it's going to be a Stargate.

evil_sharkey
7th Feb 2006, 03:48
I'm going to guess a lot of bird doo.

BigKevSexyMan
7th Feb 2006, 04:59
Maybe at the end of the pillars its just the end of the pillars. Ever think of that?

Omega
7th Feb 2006, 11:06
Maybe at the end of the pillars its just the end of the pillars. Ever think of that?

Ooh, thinking outside the box are we? :p

soothsayer
7th Feb 2006, 20:39
Korin's summer home?


Well, scientifically speaking it's impossible for them to be infinite.. because as the Universe grows, who keeps building them?

And, if the Universe is ever-expanding, then, at one point, it will be a fixed size...

I do agree it's impossible for them to be infinite, since you cannot have an infinite amount of marble. And the pillars would throw off nosgoth's orbit and occasionally crash into the sun and moon.

But there is no scientific evidence that the universe has an edge, so it can't expand or contract.
I think you are thinking of how the big bang theory is causing all the matter there is to spread out.
But if there is expanding going on it's only matter, and not the infinite void of space that is doing so.

Omega
7th Feb 2006, 21:38
It's already been proved that the Universe is expanding...

The only theory to that is, that one day, it will contract.

WraithStar
7th Feb 2006, 21:49
But there is no scientific evidence that the universe has an edge, so it can't expand or contract.
I think you are thinking of how the big bang theory is causing all the matter there is to spread out.
But if there is expanding going on it's only matter, and not the infinite void of space that is doing so.

So what's the difference between "expanding" and "spreading out"? All of the physics books I've read say that the universe is expanding and that once the momentum from the big bang wears off, it's possible that the universe's own gravity will cause it to collapse back in on itself.

As for the pillars, they are described as infinite. Since Nosgoth isn't even confirmed to be on a planet, we can probably take that description at face value and call it magic.

Raziel'sRevenge
8th Feb 2006, 01:29
First of all, science nerd that I am I can tell you that there is a difference between expanding matter and the universe expanding. Matter can spread out over space because the space exists. The universe cannot expand because the universe is all of the physical space in existance, and being that matter cannot be created or destroyed, only transfomed, there can be no creation of addional space, leaving scientists to believe that the universe in infinate, but the edge of OUR galaxy is expanding outword.

Whew, now that all the technical stuff is out of the way (and please correct me if I messed up anywhere), my thoery is that the pillars actually bend both space and time to loop back upon themselves.

Also, in BO1 if you zoom out at the pillars you can clearly see that they have gold cross tops. I know that this is blown to pieces in SR2, BO2, and Defiance, but being that BO1 is the original I think it has precedent :D

BigKevSexyMan
8th Feb 2006, 01:33
The pillars can't be infinite, because if they fell then the world would be filled by the pillars wouldn't it?

BTW- Whatever happened to the scraps of the pillars when they fell?

soothsayer
8th Feb 2006, 04:50
but the edge of OUR galaxy is expanding outword.

I think you mean all of the galaxies, including ours, are expanding outward.
OUR galaxy is collapsing in on itself toward the big black hole in the center.
Though our sun will have long burned out by then.
And apparently, our galaxy will also merge with the andromeda galaxy long before that happens too.

Personally, I don't count on any of these predictions coming true.

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." Nikola Tesla

Nor the fictional universe of a video game :D

The_Hylden
8th Feb 2006, 17:52
For the "infinite" theory, I've heard the mention that the Pillars might loop around the "planet" and back through the planet underneath of the submerged Pillar Chamber, creating a continuous loop of pillars with no real beginning or end. I don't think that's the case, but that's the only way I've yet seen the Pillars talked of as being "infinite."

Peregrinus
8th Feb 2006, 21:55
Infinity is a hard thing to try to understand, but it can be explained simply. Trying to picture and comprehend what infinitely large is, is impossible for any man simply because it keeps on expanding exponentially indefinately. We humans just ain't smart enough to put all that in our tiny brain and mind. What you can do ofcourse, is change the whole way of thinking and try doing it the the other way around. Trying to picture something that is expanding infinitely smaller is easier. Now I know that might sound contradictory, but bear with me here. when something is infinitely expanding its coming from one point (the dot) and and expanding from it like so <-- . -->, when something is expanding infinitely smaller its coming from the outside (the dots) and travelling inside like so .---><---., in the first, matter is infinitely made at the <> symbols, in the second matter is infinitely made at the dots. In the first matter expands outwards, in the second matter expands inwards and is infinitely shrunk to the middle. Now if this happens at the highest speed we decided there is, the speed of light, nothing could ever catch up with the expansion, not even light itself, thus making the distance between the middle and the border infinite. in the first there is always more matter outside the <> because they keep infinitely expanding outward, in the second however, there is nothing beyond the dots. In other words, the second has an absolute border, so we can draw it in our mind. If you don't understand yet I'll try to get an animated gif illustrating what i mean, it's not complex at all.

The DarkOne
8th Feb 2006, 22:37
I know this might sound crazy but I think its probably the most logical explanation, maybe at the top of the pillars there is a portal to the demon dimension :confused: :confused: :confused:

Peregrinus
8th Feb 2006, 22:55
Probably a starbucks and a mcdonalds

The_Hylden
9th Feb 2006, 03:45
To the explanation of infinity for the tiny human brain:p:

Thank you, Captain Obvious :rolleyes:

soothsayer
9th Feb 2006, 03:57
Peregrinus, you don't seem to truly grasp the concept of infinity.
If something expands or contracts that means it has changed in size.
If something has gone from or to any other size, than either size has to be finite.
Even if a size is far to large or too small for humans to see, it is still finite.
An infinite space cannot change size because the end result would always equal infinity.

Peregrinus
9th Feb 2006, 10:24
Exactly right, something truly infinite has no beginning or end, it merely IS. Can you draw a mental image of that? If you can and your head doesn't explode I will adress you as my grand and gracious lord from now on (no really, I will, I might even get you some worshippers too!). Something infinitely expanding however can have a beginning of whatever proportion you want. As long as it expands at the speed of light, nothing would be able to catch up with it, there is nothing beyond it, because nothing can GET there before the expansion. I'm not trying to explain infinity as described in the first sentence, I am merely providing a tool that makes it possible to imagine something that does not end, without going mad. Here's an analogy, you're driving on a road at the speed of light (don't try this in real life), there's a car 30 ft in front of you driving at the same speed that is actually putting the road there, in front of that car, there is nothing. Now you'd say that the distance from your car to the car in front of you, is only 30 feet, and beyond that car, there is no road, so the road is quite finite! However since you're allready driving at the fastest speed there is, you will never be able to catch up with the car creating it, making the road you drive infinite! Now if you feel I'm truly missing something, please indulge me!


Oh and it's Galactic Commander Obvious! :D

soothsayer
9th Feb 2006, 21:16
Obeying any recognizable laws of physics, no thing can be infinite, but nothing can.
Things that are made of stuff cannot be infinite, since thing require a designated finite amount of stuff to be made out of.
But if something isn't made out of anything, you can use all the nothing you want.
eg. I possess an infinite amount of non-existent houses.
Space isn't made out of anything, so it can go on forever.

However, when traveling in a space ship, there is still something.
Time, gravity, consciousness and other metaphysical forces science can measure, but not explain.
Since these forces can exist simultaneously with nothingness, than they may too be nothing, and ergo infinite.

Boundaries do not exist naturally in the infinite.
For example, if I told you to travel to the edge of the universe in a space ship, you couldn't.
You may have a space ship that is fast as light, you could not reach the end.
And even if you could go back in time, hoping to find the edge of the universe as it expanded outward from it's origin, you won't, because infinity is by nature a fixed size, infinite.
If you intended to ever go home with a mission complete status, you'd have to simply proclaim the farthest point you have been the edge of the universe.

WraithStar
9th Feb 2006, 21:34
Quite frankly, I don't believe in infinity. I think that the universe does have an edge and it is expanding. The universe is probably incredibly complex and exists in more dimensions than I can picture in my mind, but I truly think that it could be comprehended in its entirety if humans were smart enough (which we're not). Just because we can't understand it all doesn't mean it's infinite.

Peregrinus
9th Feb 2006, 23:29
@soothsayer. Well we are in agreeance then on infinity, although I understand the way I formulated it might lead to confusion. My bad there! Something infinitely expanding is ofcourse entirely different from something infinite, and the way I said it in the first post may lead to misconception. For instance, the space in our universe is infinite, where the matter in this universe is infinitely expanding. Did I say it right there? :D

Omega
9th Feb 2006, 23:57
You're all wrong.

The Universe is in the stomache of a dog.

Too outside the box?

Dumah'sDead
10th Feb 2006, 03:18
It was stated in one of the games that the pillars were created to keep the Hylden in the demon demension. Therefore, I think the top of the pillars is the gateway.
Funny cartoon waiting to be drawn there...(see the Hylden Lord standing there looking like a convict in cell block D) LOL!! :thumbsup:

Dumah'sDead
10th Feb 2006, 03:21
BTW...my next best guess is that there's a bunch of teenagers standing up there honkin loogies at the vampires.

Peregrinus
10th Feb 2006, 10:40
if it's in the stomach of a dog.... that dog is gonna have some serious stomach cramps, hope it's owner doesn't give it an enema, or maybe that's what the big bang was! Eureka! We've found the answer to the birth of the universe! it simply exploded out of the universal dogs behind!

Raziel'sRevenge
12th Feb 2006, 20:54
@Peregrinus: Wow, that is quite possibly the best explanation for the creation of the universe ever. And it explains why the world's so full of crap :D

evil_sharkey
25th Feb 2006, 23:20
^^^That just made my day.

fangedwolf
26th Feb 2006, 14:39
I'm going to guess a lot of bird doo.

I know this might sound crazy but I think its probably the most logical explanation, maybe at the top of the pillars there is a portal to the demon dimension :confused: :confused: :confused:

As much as I love these forums, way too interested in discussing things about the universe and a variety of laws of physics etc heh.

I think Im going to go with these quotes.. they dont strain my brain too much heh. :cool:

FearGhoul
27th Feb 2006, 23:15
I think there's a cotton candy machine up there, and a slurpee machine, and gummy bears, and Skittles, and some chiken strips. mmmmmmmmm.....

The Reaver Blade
27th Feb 2006, 23:28
The Seer! MWAHAHAHA!:D

vampire][vorador
2nd Mar 2006, 00:27
Nah, if anything it's going to be a Stargate.
LOL

Super phoenix
19th Apr 2006, 15:01
When did this turn into a talk about what the universe is? i thought we were discussing about what's on the top of the pillars....

al i can say is according to a fan fic i once read, atop the pillars is the lock of the world or somthing like that. the Vampire champion is supposed to insert the reaver of binding (the soul reaver) into the lock on the pillar of balance.
of course this was just from a fan fic but it does explain a bit if anyone is interested in a long surmen.....probably not...

PS I'm a new member to this site and this is my first comment....

FearGhoul
20th Apr 2006, 02:39
And if there was something at the top, wouldn't it or pieces of it have fallen to the ground? Or maybe it would have dissolved like the rest of the Pillars (except the bottom) seemed too. Maybe Kain's place in Soul Reaver would have been made from what's left of the top?

Super phoenix
21st Apr 2006, 13:57
that maybe the case...or perhaps of the mystic forces that created the pillars in the first place is still holding them up? perhaps it's one of those things we'll just never know about games eh?

demon_overdrive
23rd Apr 2006, 10:18
When did this turn into a talk about what the universe is? i thought we were discussing about what's on the top of the pillars....

al i can say is according to a fan fic i once read, atop the pillars is the lock of the world or somthing like that. the Vampire champion is supposed to insert the reaver of binding (the soul reaver) into the lock on the pillar of balance.
of course this was just from a fan fic but it does explain a bit if anyone is interested in a long surmen.....probably not...

PS I'm a new member to this site and this is my first comment....

Well, you know what phoenix?..... that's damn right. I fully agree on that.:thumbsup:

Super phoenix
26th Apr 2006, 16:12
what do you agree to? the idea i had, or the fact that no one wants to hear a long and probably boring surmen?

FearGhoul
27th Apr 2006, 06:49
There was a sign up there that said: You just climbed all the way up here for nothing.
Hey, what happens if you fly all the way up there in Soul Reaver 2? I'm also wondering what the path to Ustenheim looks like in the first time. I should get a Game Shark for that some time.

demon_overdrive
27th Apr 2006, 16:12
what do you agree to? the idea i had, or the fact that no one wants to hear a long and probably boring surmen?

Ofcourse your idea phoenix :whistle:, 'cause i do think of that theory for kain the same way :scratch: :mad2:. And as far as your long & boring speechs are concerned, you don't stand a chance before me on that :D .

Anoobish
27th Apr 2006, 16:40
This thread is still going?

Super phoenix
28th Apr 2006, 10:59
Yep Anoobish it sure is continuing....
Demon_overdrive is that a fact?

demon_overdrive
28th Apr 2006, 11:11
Demon_overdrive is that a fact?

Well, phoenix if u don't believe me, why don't u better go and check out for yourself:scratch: .Go and checkout my posts,you will eventually find yourself nodding or beating up your head against the wall nearby :mad2: while regreting why u took my advice on it:lmao:

DemonicDC
28th Apr 2006, 20:29
The question we need to answer first is ARE the pillars infinate.
Now if the answer is no, we can start wondering whats up there.

Also following the theory of relativity the speed of light, which is c, light is the fastest thing around. So from LIGHTS perspective light is infinate.
So wanna picture infinate, picture light and ya done, just not the way you expected huh

Nefarian
29th Apr 2006, 02:56
Ontop of the pillar, it's directly 'poke' into the body of sun. So that nosgoth and sun is connected to each other. :rasp:

L_Master562
29th Apr 2006, 03:32
This makes me think back to a calc course that I was taking, and some of the things that the professor said when we were doing something involving tangent graphs.

A student asked what a verticle asymptote was and why that after being an undefined number that the graph suddenly jumped to comming back into view from the opposite way. After a long and grueling class long + proof of it, we saw that infinity was a loop, and that it did a higher dimensional jump to a 3D plane that we don't see on the graphs and loops around popping back into view at an equally steep angle as the initial slope up. At least I believe that was how it worked out. I still have the notes from that particular class as I'm going through a physics curriculum now. Just so much to try to digest sometimes though. Along with the the multiple books for each class.

He also showed us that all conic sections are the same thing at different values and proportions or somesuch, but I digress. I say the pillars would just cut through another spatial dimension and comes back out to the bottom of Nosgoth in some abstract way. It is the whole loop is infinite, even if strait thing. It doesn't need to curve as we percieve it normally for it to work. If that is how the pillars exist though, it could be large quantities of it somehow left our basic reality and went somewhere else when they shattered. Or just been thrown far away. Or the dog vomited it all up but was to thin to see.

I always thought the Hylden would have burried the stargate they came acrossed as even more religious nuts started pouring through then the ones they were already dealing with. We know how that goes with them. Might have thought it to much like the Vampire gates, but more science-y. Something not to mess so much with. May explain their technology though. Looks Ancient like, but more with the general mood of Nosgoth overlapping it.

Hmmm. Dogs. I'll never see the poop in my back yard the same way again. One would have thought of it sooner if they came out as blocks of superheavy elements or mini-suns though. Black holes and other odd spatial phenomena might come to raise a few flags as well. All a matter of scale I guess.

I'm pretty sure that the 14 billion or so light year wide expanse that matter covers in our universe by most current accounts is all that I've heard scientists seem to talk about. The edge may be just outside of that, or non existant. With all of the concepts of parallel universe, universes next to ours spatially if giant bubble with other stuff inbetween or some odd article I saw in Scientific American where universes could just blink into and out of existance in a nature of the universe article, I find the point moot as it is outside our visible range of the universe. Also, the universe could be a giant hologram, a giant spatial fluid vat, or other bizzare but easily plausable concepts. That was another article to, covering we saw only a small dot of what they calculated as the expanse of matter above we percieve as a universe. The cosmology of any possible multiverse, which since that is infinite in and of itself theoritically, seems sort of a toss up untill we could actually pass the borders of matter distribution and go beyond. It could be a giant enclosed circuit like the tangent graph or a bubble who's edges curve so you never reach the edge even if you could go the speed.

I ponder more about the eventual end of the universe. I personally root for entropy, and the whole heat death thing. Or, the big freeze concept, be it a post heat death or a simple end in itself. Then, huge gaps between all atoms the size of galaxies would interest me. So on and so forth, expanding forever due to the repelling force at work in the universe, as it is often stronger then the forces of gravity on an intergalactic scale. For the life of me, I can't remember the name of it, but I believe it was a number Einstein worked out and he tossed away seeing no use for it in his constant universe model he believed in.

Their are so many aspects of the universe that are so interesting though. Also, if the repelling force exists it makes the need for dark matter and energy to fill in the gaps an unneeded mass or set of forces. All of this makes for good discussions. A Google search, a wiki search and a quick index search in my books is in order for the name of that force though. I should be able to find it.

Zyden
6th May 2006, 15:12
forgoet abou the top wat about the bottom eh? Think about it they go down undergruod quite a bit:scratch:

evil_sharkey
9th May 2006, 04:45
At the bottom of the Pillars? I'd say the basement, complete with water damage, mildew, non-functioning hot water heater, dusty boxes full of Janos' old junk, and a dead rat in the corner.

Zyden
9th May 2006, 21:58
lol...:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

my fan fiction senses are tinglin'

in my ff the rat inevidably causes a paradox and kain ends up in a dress. While searching through janos's *junk* kain finds a pink dress that is similar to his own. Could this pink frilly dress truely save Nozgoth?:scratch:

Vampmaster
9th May 2006, 23:58
Since we're talking about the universe, I think it could be like a hypercube. Or as if stretched around in a sphere shape like on Earth how you end up in the east if you go far enough west. You go far enough in one direction, you appear right back at the other end. There was a theory a while ago that the pillars looped back on themselves in a similar sort of way using a spacial distortion. The guardians would be capable of something like that as it's similar to that building in dark eden there the inside was bigger than the outside.

L_Master562
10th May 2006, 01:16
A hypercube is a set of cubes of higher spatial dimensions of any quantity. In four dimensions, it is called a tesseract, which is a common term in many series. That is in the 4D space what I was on about earlier with that infinity kinda jump, but you're exactly right. It was sorta what I was talking about and had been used as an explanation before. It tends to be a catch all way for extra space in sci-fi or fantasy nowadays.

*Looks at the uses of the concept in its Wikipedia article.

Doctor Who's Tardis is a good example, as Dark Eden would also be.

It is also mentioned in a Popular science mag I saw in my colledge's library a while back that though space is usually continous, parts may stutter and end up somewhere else. This may also apply.

FearGhoul
10th May 2006, 03:15
Forget hypercube! Try a Time Cube! www.timecube.com

Vampmaster
10th May 2006, 12:53
A hypercube is a set of cubes of higher spatial dimensions of any quantity. In four dimensions, it is called a tesseract, which is a common term in many series. That is in the 4D space what I was on about earlier with that infinity kinda jump, but you're exactly right. It was sorta what I was talking about and had been used as an explanation before. It tends to be a catch all way for extra space in sci-fi or fantasy nowadays.

*Looks at the uses of the concept in its Wikipedia article.

Doctor Who's Tardis is a good example, as Dark Eden would also be.

It is also mentioned in a Popular science mag I saw in my colledge's library a while back that though space is usually continous, parts may stutter and end up somewhere else. This may also apply.

I've been shown how to set up computer networks that work like hypercubes, to allow fast communication without having to connect every computer to every other computer. It's the same thing as with space, but simpler to understand if you think of it as wires. I think it'd also make it easy to simulate how space world work.