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soothsayer
6th Dec 2005, 01:22
One of the greatest mysteries in LoK is how exactly The Hylden Lord survived his first fight with Kain in BO.
(assuming you fought him with the reaver of coarse)
Does he possess some immunity to the soul reaver?
If this is true, than Kain never really finished him off in BO2 Neither.
And his threat should have been taken alot more seriously.

Maybe he and his race did return in some form, during Raziel's absence of coarse.
And maybe the mutations in the clans were of hylden origin.
Kain did kinda freak when Raziel created a timeline where Kain had his BO2 adventures with the hylden.

But how can this be, seeing that in defiance the reaver can draw energy from hylden souls.
But then Raziel's soul energy can be absorbed by wraith's and archons, and it was never fatal for him.
Whenever Raziel was depleted of energy he is drawn to EG.
And maybe the hylden are simply drawn back into the demon realm when they run out of energy.
Perhaps EG was speaking the truth when he said that Raziel was of the hylden race.

WraithStar
6th Dec 2005, 15:28
I think you're confused. The Hylden Lord from BO2 is the one that possessed Janos in Defiance. The entity that Kain fought in BO1 was not the Hylden Lord. Rather, it was other hylden possessing Mortanius.

soothsayer
6th Dec 2005, 18:35
nope.


Possessed Mortanius
This one grows weak. But we will soon have a stronger vessel. The long-awaited hour approaches - our release is at hand --

As Janos recovers, he is changed. His body is now inhabited by a different entity -- the same being Raziel encountered before, when Mortanius was possessed.

Hylden Lord
Ah, Raziel, we meet again.

Hylden Lord
This one is strong... good. My next move requires a more durable host. Mortals are such fragile vessels. Willing or not, you have provided the instrument of our victory.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

WraithStar
6th Dec 2005, 22:30
Alright, so I'm confused :p I was thinking of Turel being possessed, which Amy said wasn't the Hylden Lord. Anyhow, if the Hylden Lord is remotely possessing a body, there's no reason he'd die just because his puppet dies. His own body was still nice and safe inside the Demon Dimension. Since Kain destroyed Hash's actual body in BO2, I don't think we'll be seeing that particular Hylden again.

FearGhoul
7th Dec 2005, 00:47
I think that the demon Kain fights at the end of Blood Omen wasn't the Hylden Lord, just a powerful demon, and they just had him say all that stuff, while the one who actually planned it all was still in the Demon Dimension.

rabban
7th Dec 2005, 05:48
gonna have to agree with soothsayer on this.

Q: How does the Hash'ak'gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?
A: "Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.

WraithStar
7th Dec 2005, 16:46
Yeah, that's the quote I was thinking of when I got confused. It still doesn't mean that the Hylden Lord was actually *inside* of the monster at the end of BO1 when it dies, though. If you'll notice, all through Defiance whenever the Hylden Lord is possessing someone, it's "We...our..." and when he has his own body in BO2 he distinctly refers to himself as "I." I think that the possessions are a collaboration of many Hylden to control a person, but they aren't actually "inside" that person, so if their victim dies they are not killed with him.

soothsayer
7th Dec 2005, 19:48
When he says "I", he is referring to himself, when he says "we" he is referring to the Hylden race as a whole. The only time multiple possessions occurred was with Turel. HL can Possess any being on his own.

Though I think you may be right about the whole "Hylden puppet master thing". Like how Raziel only uses a manifestation in the material realm, his real form is safe in spectral. If I'm right than the Hylden can only be harmed if fought in the demon realm. But they don't have EG to fall back on, like Raziel, when he dies in spectral.

rabban
7th Dec 2005, 20:39
ah wraithstar... read the bold stuff

"In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel"

if you read soothsayer's other post you will see he shows janos saying my, i etc...so...your wrong...very wrong.

WraithStar
8th Dec 2005, 14:58
I meant when Mortanius is possessed, before the binding fails, since Mortanius is the one who transforms into the monster that Kain fights. After the binding fails, when the Hylden Lord possesses Janos, that's different. He speaks using Janos' own voice and it doesn't sound like the same semi-whispered collective voices that come out when Mortanius is possessed.

rabban
8th Dec 2005, 18:00
and again you force me to point at lines soothsayer provided...geez :rolleyes:

look it up wraith!

Hylden Lord
"Ah, Raziel, we meet again."

by your beliefs they would have never met yet.

if you read the dark chronicle it says mortanius/hylden lord.

*jumps around like Rumplstilskin*

your wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!!!!

IG-88
8th Dec 2005, 18:36
i agree with Wraithstar, In BO2 The Sarafan Lord is actually one entity if anyone is actually paying attention to the scripted dialouge.

In BO the Demon is referred to constantly as the "Unspoken or the Dark Entity"

Now from what i've noticed in Defiance

1. The Hylden Lord and Hash, are 2 seperate beings, How so you say

alright check it out.

Turel is possesed by many Hylden as they refer to themselves as we, and such.

Meanwhile upstairs outside of the pit Mortainius is also possesed seemingly by more than one, but in the original BO the Dark Entity is the one that pops out during the battle. One being see. now then

Raziel beats Turel and remember he was possessed by many. so this is the influence that is inside Raziel.

Next,... Fledgling Kain makes his climatic decision, the Pillars go Bang, and when the smoke clears(near Raziel and an UNpossessed Janos)
Janos is possessed by more than one, He says " We required the blood of our ancient enemy and you delivered us Janos Audron...
That should about cover it.

soothsayer
8th Dec 2005, 19:17
Raziel beats Turel and remember he was possessed by many. so this is the influence that is inside Raziel.

Raziel was never under hylden influence, he ate turel's soul, and the hylden stayed behind to bother Kain later. Raz's eyes glowing green is a product of the sort of creature he is, glowing like that during moments of extreme anger, the demon dimension keeps hylden in a constant rage so their eyes always glow green, but the seer and the builder were calm, with normal eyes.


Mortainius is also possesed seemingly by more than one, but in the original BO the Dark Entity is the one that pops out during the battle.

If HL could control an ancient by himself, than why would he need help possessing a mortal.


We required the blood of our ancient enemy and you delivered us Janos Audron...

he is talking about the hylden race as a whole.


Hylden Lord
This one is strong... good. My next move requires a more durable host.

rabban
8th Dec 2005, 21:44
read the script peepoll it says in bold letters...

Mortanius/Hylden Lord:

when you read the turel scenes it says...

Turel/Hylden:

when raziel fights janos it says

Janos/Hylden Lord:

mortanius was not controlled by a group of hylden he was controlled by the Hylden Lord...when mortanius fought kain in bo1 it was mortanius he fought at first but once mortanius died kain was fighting the hylden lord.

as far as raziel being controlled by hylden...i think he was swayed by hylden. based on these two lines.

Raziel:
Kain was gone. The madness of this place had somehow fueled my rage, and as it subsided I felt no elation, no sense of victory.

and

Vorador:
Undoubtedly this is the source of the corruption that infects the Circle. If you are to succeed, you must resist its influence.

WraithStar
8th Dec 2005, 22:43
Q: How does the Hash'ak'gik/Turel/Hylden relationship work?
A: "Hash'ak'gik" is the name the human worshippers use for their god. The actual Hash entity is a leader among the Hylden, who has his own agenda. In Defiance, he possesses Janos. In Blood Omen, he uses the transformed body of Mortanius as a vessel. In Blood Omen 2, he appears as the Hylden Lord (AKA Sarafan Lord). When Raziel meets Turel, Turel is actually being possessed by a number of other Hylden (not the Hylden Lord). Many different Hylden did so in order to command their disciples.

Q: How does Defiance relate to the events of Blood Omen 2?
A: The events of Defiance cause Blood Omen 2 to be possible. During the rift when the Pillars collapse, the Hylden Lord/Hash is able to escape his imprisonment and possess Janos. This means that not only does he have an indestructible vessel for himself, but once he gets another body in BO2, he has Janos prison to use to power The Device. Vorador's appearance in that game was going to be explained a little bit in the original Defiance design, but this part was trimmed down.


Okay, those are the exact Q&A answers. Let's see if we can make sense of them:)



If HL could control an ancient by himself, than why would he need help possessing a mortal.

I already put forth my explanation for that. When he's trying to control Mortanius, the binding is weak but still exists. In the instant that the binding is destroyed, the Hylden Lord possesses Janos.

I think it is significant that the Hylden Lord "possesses" Janos, but only uses Mortanius as a "vessel." It implies that his hold over Janos is much stronger.

What I meant before is that when possessed Janos is speaking, it sounds like Janos' own voice, but distorted. With Mortanius, however, it sounds like the borg collective :p That's why I thought that Mortanius was being controlled by multiple Hylden. In either case, I think that the Hylden Lord was merely controlling Mortanius and was not actually connected to him, so when Mortanius died it didn't hurt the Hylden Lord.

fneh
8th Dec 2005, 23:04
" We required the blood of our ancient enemy and you delivered us Janos Audron.."

you're looking at that too literally. He said WE as a collective term for his species. Janos was only posessed by the Hylden lord. When he said WE it's the same as Kain saying it in reference to vampires.

eg: "as long as a single one of US stands WE are legion"

soothsayer
9th Dec 2005, 04:57
It may have been the demon dimension itself that influenced Raziel, he is metaphysically similar to the hylden. The binding was so weak in that place Kain could manage to simply waltz into it.

WraithStar
9th Dec 2005, 23:36
" We required the blood of our ancient enemy and you delivered us Janos Audron.."

you're looking at that too literally. He said WE as a collective term for his species. Janos was only posessed by the Hylden lord. When he said WE it's the same as Kain saying it in reference to vampires.

eg: "as long as a single one of US stands WE are legion"

I know that Janos was only possessed by the Hylden Lord. I meant that Mortanius *sounds* like he's being possessed by many Hylden, although the Dark Chronicle does say "Hylden Lord" so I guess it was just supposed to sound like a single voice. Anyhow, I don't think that the Hylden Lord's actual mind was inside of Mortanius, so that fact that the Hylden Lord survived Mortanius' death doesn't necessarily mean that nothing can kill the Hylden Lord.

rabban
10th Dec 2005, 01:40
well bo2 answered that one...the hylden lord was killed by kain in bo2...what strikes me as sad is that kain at the time had no idea he was killing the same guy he fought in bo1!...i mean his memories were bad at the time but still...i would have liked that the hylden lord would have at least aknowledged that he fought kain at least 3 times now.

soothsayer
10th Dec 2005, 03:05
As I said before, Kain didn't necessarily finish off HL for good.
He may have simply just forced his spirit back into the demon dimension.

Smoke_Z
11th Dec 2005, 00:36
As I said before, Kain didn't necessarily finish off HL for good.
He may have simply just forced his spirit back into the demon dimension.

Naw, I think Razzy finally ate him. HL's orifi were glowing, IIRC.

rabban
11th Dec 2005, 01:48
yes...IIRC

Valzara
14th Dec 2005, 08:06
Guys, with this I am worrying 1 thing:

-Elder God is defeated.
-Hylden Lord is beated down in BO2.

SO now, no more villian, LOK end.

OMG please noooooooooooo !!!

The DarkOne
14th Dec 2005, 09:23
Guys, with this I am worrying 1 thing:

-Elder God is defeated.
-Hylden Lord is beated down in BO2.

SO now, no more villian, LOK end.

OMG please noooooooooooo !!!

im afraid you could be right cuz in BO2 the gate to the demon dimension was closed therefore corruption along with demons should stop seeping into nosgoth

soothsayer
15th Dec 2005, 03:43
the hylden gate just allowed them to take physical form, the binding is no better off without it, cause the cruddiness of the SR world didn't change.

The_Hylden
15th Dec 2005, 05:01
Ok, first off...

Mortanius' body WAS changed by the Hylden Lord inside of him and that is the demon/monster you fight at the end of BO1. Janos WAS then possessed by the Hylden Lord when the Pillars went boom, sending his spirit all the way to the citadel. At the end of BO2, the Hylden Lord WAS reaved by the Soul Reaver, thus no more Hylden Lord...

Those are the facts... Until anything rewrites them officially.

rabban
15th Dec 2005, 05:47
i think you should have PMed that:D there's probably only one person who would disagree with you.

soothsayer
17th Dec 2005, 02:57
Mortanius' body WAS changed by the Hylden Lord inside of him and that is the demon/monster you fight at the end of BO1. Janos WAS then possessed by the Hylden Lord when the Pillars went boom, sending his spirit all the way to the citadel.

At the end of BO2, the Hylden Lord WAS reaved by the Soul Reaver, thus no more Hylden Lord...

So he survived the reaver in BO, while was inside of Mortainius.
And he survived a thrashing with the spirit reaver.
So what, it's like third times the charm?

Also, I find it kind of hard to believe that hylden soldiers would attack raziel if the reaver's draining powers could do them in for good. With all those attacks on Raziel, there shouldn't be any hylden warriors left, unless the could survive to go in for a second round.


Those are the facts... Until anything rewrites them officially.

LoK is fiction and it's flawed (prison to the far north my foot)
anything can happen, and no pseudo authority can say otherwise.

The_Hylden
17th Dec 2005, 04:58
So he survived the reaver in BO, while was inside of Mortainius.
And he survived a thrashing with the spirit reaver.
So what, it's like third times the charm?

First of all, you don't have to defeat him with the reaver to win the same exact way in BO1. However, beyond that, we see he's still alive and able to possess Janos, so he obviously wasn't reaved in the way they took this storyline... They, meaning the game creators/writers like Amy Hennig, etc.... You seem to always want to discredit what they present as further facts to their world as not meaning squat. I never get that... Yes, this is fiction, but fiction is always adherent to whatever created it's facts, or rules, are. therefore, when they friggin TELL you the rules and what they've laid down as FACTS, to then question them is utterly ridiculous (stated for the umpteenth millionth time now...)

That being said...

The only time we ever see the Reaver impale the Hylden Lord, A.K.A.a finishing move, is in BO2. Raziel smacks him with it some, yes. He also smacks other things with it too. But, he never impales him, like he does with everything in that game alone that he must in order to reave. Third time's a charm... He's (the Hylden Lord) never been stuck until BO2, so his entire soul never was diminished by the Reaver. *head-fakes from the audience* No!! Really?!! Wowzers... :rolleyes:

rabban
17th Dec 2005, 06:02
told ya...

The_Hylden
17th Dec 2005, 08:01
Yes. You are a profit.:p I simply stand in awe that anything I've commented on here was ever in question by anyone... Seriously… I need more beer. Yes, more....

I'd also like to know why only some of the time is my signature showing up... I have the option checked, yes...

rabban
17th Dec 2005, 08:59
not a clue..i have a big bag but some of the tricks are covered with crayon drawings.

Umah Bloodomen
17th Dec 2005, 13:08
I'd also like to know why only some of the time is my signature showing up... I have the option checked, yes...

The forum administration had four signature display options to choose from and ran a public poll on the matter in this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=54545). As you can see, the majority of those who voted voted for the option to have the signature defaulted to 'yes' but it will only appear once per thread page in order to cut down on the clutter in any given thread. :)

The_Hylden
18th Dec 2005, 04:50
Ah, thanks.

Arorn
16th Jan 2006, 14:33
Guys, with this I am worrying 1 thing:

-Elder God is defeated.
-Hylden Lord is beated down in BO2.

SO now, no more villian, LOK end.

OMG please noooooooooooo !!!

the only reason it would end is if they decide not to make any more games. story wise the elder god was defeated in ONE battle, but as the tipical bad guy cartoon saying goes: "you may of won the battle, but not the WAR!"

Elder god is still alive, and until hes dead (if he can die) or imprissoned in some way, the stoy can continue

WraithStar
16th Jan 2006, 17:02
The ending of Defiance had a slight bit of closure in that if there is never another LoK game, we can assume that Kain hunted down EG and finished him off (or whatever we want to believe). If there is another game, however, they clearly left it way open for EG to be a major enemy. Also, they have neglected to explain Vorador's resurrection or what happens to Janos in the demon dimension. I think it would be really cool if the next game is from Janos' perspective. The intro to the game could show scenes of Janos talking to Raziel from Defiance, and then going off to resurrect Vorador (assuming that's what happens), then getting possessed and then a few clips from BO2 to show how he ended up in the demon dimension. Then we take control and have to explore the demon dimension and figure out what the Hylden are really up to. There are tons of possibilities for what could happen in the game, and then at the end Kain should complete the final battle and finish this story arc. I think that would make a really good game :)

Anoobish
28th Jan 2006, 12:18
story wise the elder god was defeated in ONE battle, but as the tipical bad guy cartoon saying goes: "you may of won the battle, but not the WAR!"Or in this case: "You may have won the battle, but the WAR between your kind and mine, will never end!"

Just felt like it was my responsibility to say...

BigKevSexyMan
4th Feb 2006, 03:58
The HL probably abandoned the body of mortanious before kain could finish him off.

And the Elder god isn't defeated. He just lost that battle against kain. Do you think that just because EG lost that one battle that he's just going to roll over? No. Plus he vowed that one day Kain's wretched stagnant soul would be his.

Peregrinus
10th Feb 2006, 11:25
but if BO2 is the altered timeline after defiance, do SR1, 2 and LOKD happen after that? If they don't, Kain should have erased all events leading up to him defeating the elder god, if they do, kain really didnt get anywhere did he?

Binky24
10th Feb 2006, 19:02
but if BO2 is the altered timeline after defiance, do SR1, 2 and LOKD happen after that? If they don't, Kain should have erased all events leading up to him defeating the elder god, if they do, kain really didnt get anywhere did he?

And why can't they? I mean, they can, can't they? Nothing in BO2 to stop them from occurring?

Peregrinus
10th Feb 2006, 19:19
No it's more defiance that would make SR1 and 2 impossible to happen. If the elder god knew everything that happened in defiance, including getting his ass kicked, things wouldve gone a lot differently wouldnt they....

soothsayer
10th Feb 2006, 21:53
Time wants to change as little as it can, the events during BO, SR and SR2 remained the same after the event changes.
Except possibly The part of SR2 where Raziel sees Vorador's head, when it should be attatched to it's body while conquering Nosgoth with Kain.
And the time between when Kain kills Azimuth and when he kills WtJ.

The elder god can't kill Kain by any regular means, so it just might mean that he's waiting for a particular moment, and I would hardly call the scratch kain gave him kicking his ass.

FearGhoul
10th Feb 2006, 21:58
No it's more defiance that would make SR1 and 2 impossible to happen. If the elder god knew everything that happened in defiance, including getting his ass kicked, things wouldve gone a lot differently wouldnt they....

Exactly the point I've been trying to make.

TheWatcher
12th Feb 2006, 00:12
Wow, how did I miss this thread? A little late to the party, but better than never I suppose. My 2 cents...

I believe the Hylden lord is truly dead after BO2 because that's the first time in the series he was defeated in his own bodily form. Notice how all the hylden look alike in BO2. The gate had been opened and they were bodily coming into the material realm, it no longer being necessary for them to possess a body to use. What happens to them after they are dead is something of a mystery, as they are 'exempt from the wheel of fate', although Raziel did consume the souls of the possessed hylden he defeated in Defiance. I suppose those souls have no choice but to submit to the wheel.

I also believe Mortanius was only ever possessed by the HL. When the HL says to Raziel through Janos 'we meet again', he was referring to just shortly before when he met him through Mortanius. Once Kain does away with Mortanius' mutated body, the HL goes almost immediately to Janos. The pillars' corruption allowed enough of a crack in the binding to let the Hylden 'peek in' by possession. Notice how both Turel and Mortanius' possessions came and went, while after the pillars' collapse, the HL was able to take Janos and stay in control of him.