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dumah's wraith
23rd Nov 2005, 21:45
i'm bored.how about a competition to see who can invent the best vampire?

FearGhoul
24th Nov 2005, 06:19
Bobby the empathic vampire. Dies in a few days because he doesn't want to kill anyone. Poor Bobby.

Behemiel
24th Nov 2005, 17:44
Jeez I think that was to much :D

dumah's wraith
24th Nov 2005, 18:41
heheh, no, i meant nosgothic[ as in a sub-clan in sr1 or an individual in the others]

rabban
24th Nov 2005, 18:47
jareth, a hylden childe from the ancient era forced into the future after raziel left it in sr1...befriends and is eventually turned by the one remaining survivor of raziel's clan.

dumah's wraith
24th Nov 2005, 19:10
that i like

rabban
24th Nov 2005, 20:37
thx dumah's wraith. :)

fneh
24th Nov 2005, 22:44
Jareth??


*fneh suddenly starts singing magic dance wearing white tights and inappropriately swinging his hips about and kicking his goblin minions about and playing catch with a human babe....* :D

rabban
24th Nov 2005, 23:37
:D ...i thought it would be the perfect name for a hylden...plus my crush on jennifer connelly started there...

soothsayer
25th Nov 2005, 04:59
I think Ja're'th would be more appropriate. :D

rabban
25th Nov 2005, 07:59
nah...i still like jareth better...Ja're'th sounds like a gene roddenberry character...like da'an or za'or

weaponx
25th Nov 2005, 10:57
Name:The Firsts

they were the original vampire race in Nosgoth witch have long been forgotten becorse they changed demension but they left behind their technolgy witch was a major part in the creation of the reaver by vorador 10,000 years later

they are beyond good or evil

the warriors are powerful and swift but they dont last too long becorse they put the soul of a demon in them and they can only last afew hundred years before the demon inside takes controll and transforms them into the demon, to prevent this from happening they kill them when they start to show signs of it

rabban
25th Nov 2005, 13:34
hmm....like giants in a playground?

FearGhoul
25th Nov 2005, 22:18
hmm....like giants in a playground?

Hehehehehe

soothsayer
26th Nov 2005, 06:34
I just thought it would be more appropriate assuming Hash'ak'gik fits into the hylden grammatical standard. Eh Ra'ba'an :D

rabban
26th Nov 2005, 11:23
eh?...whatever it could be a human name or a name that that is completely nameless...in fact all the hylden call each other cousin...i wonder if they have names.

fneh
26th Nov 2005, 17:31
eh?...whatever it could be a human name or a name that that is completely nameless...in fact all the hylden call each other cousin...i wonder if they have names.

that'll be the inbreeding :D It's also why they're all so ugly.

soothsayer
27th Nov 2005, 00:18
eh?...whatever it could be a human name or a name that that is completely nameless...in fact all the hylden call each other cousin...i wonder if they have names.

That's a good point, the only things they are known as are the lord, the seer and the builder. Not particularly creative. Makes me think they had no sort of family structure, like because they raise offspring communally.

rabban
27th Nov 2005, 01:05
and warriors...we know nothing about them socially other then that...but i assume they have some sort of family structure given the whole cousin stuff.

soothsayer
27th Nov 2005, 01:43
They might just refer to all other hylden as cousin, feeling that all non-hylden aren't part of the family. Which does lead to the assumption of communal parenting, leading to a sort of cast system, ie the tough ones become soldiers, the smart ones become scientists, the creative one become entertainers/artists. a society based on haves and needs rather than wants. If everything is shared than the hylden have little social hierarchy, which somewhat eliminates the need for individuality. Politically, the hylden are extreme left, as seen in Meridian, a Social Dictatorship. And their original society during ancient times must have been more so. The Builder and the seer both seem to have contempt for hylden society by helping Kain. The Builder seemed especially resentful, desperately wanting to destroy his own creation, suggesting he was forced to create it. and the seer living as a hermit.

I recently did some reading on the Russian Revolution, there are a lot of parallels with Nosgoth's history.

Behemiel
27th Nov 2005, 16:29
Indeed commrad :D. But the idea of such a Hylden society is interesting I would asume the Ancients had a symillar political system but the rulling body ware the Pillar Guardinas I asume. Or the had nothing to say and ware mearli handeling the religious part of thei society.

soothsayer
27th Nov 2005, 16:54
Actually, the ancients are at the other end of the political spectrum, a Theocracy. They would have to have been to make their entire society go to war because they hylden committed acts they say as blasphemous. They do appear to have a family structure, since Janos does have a last name, he also treats Vorador as his offspring. They also appear to have a hierarchy, with those of greater power commanding those weaker than them.

Though they do seem similar since both were autocracies (as opposed to democracies or free reign). But Theocratic dictators act in the best interests of an ideal, where as Communist dictators act in the best interests of their people.

As far as I can tell, Lok has no direct political agenda.
They just use real political ideals to increase the depth of their fictional societies.
The agendas LoK encourages are ethical, though politics are connected to personal ideals.

Behemiel
28th Nov 2005, 20:44
That does clear a lot up for me. Thank you. Still... I would like to finde out more about the political system of boath races. And even of the humans prior to the Revolt. And just how did Moebius connact, or got conntacted by the Elder? And how did he move all the humans to the rebelion. From BO2 we learn that the Hylden first discovered humans and started to use them as slaves.

When did the Ancients start diong the same? Also in Bo1 we see werewolfs. How do they fit into the storry and why do they not apear in the later games. Also I would like to finde out more about the feral humans in the Citadel of the Vampiers. They obviously treated the Ancients like gods. And did Kain whipe them all out since they are never mentioned again?

soothsayer
28th Nov 2005, 22:37
I would like to finde out more about the political system of boath races.

They are fictional races, so just about anyone can add to the mythos.
Though only if you do this at eidos' command is it considered official.
But free feel to write a fanon, or even a flash about it.

WWII is a good base to base the ancient/hylden war.
Since it had extreme right going against extreme left.
(fascist Nazis vs Communist Russians)


And even of the humans prior to the Revolt.

I don't believe humans would have much of their own society until after the war. They were probably just adopted by both races to be subservient. Though other than that, humans were Anarchist or Tribal at best.

On a personal note, I wonder how the humans governed themselves in the citadel, I have a feeling they were probably somewhat right wing, likely ruled by a monarch/hierophant. which is evidential in those crusading humans, than kneeled to you when you didn't hurt them.

This theoretical citadel ruler was probably some lucky soothsayer, that though shear probability guessed when their savior would arrive, and rid the world of the dark Gods. I imagine the humans, post SR wear blue face paint, and have all sorts of raziel shaped idols.


And just how did Moebius connact, or got conntacted by the Elder?

Moe was one of the kids raised at the citadel, though the ancients were cursed at this point, so they had to regularly feed on humans. the humans who eventually became the ferrals. I surmise, that seeing vampires do in humans and feed off them traumatized him, and made him the bugger he is today. At some point he visited the god pool, met the elder, and got his staff, than went all genocide on the ancients.


And how did he move all the humans to the rebelion.

William was quite young when he died, so I doubt he produced any heirs when Kain killed him. And it was quite obvious that his people loved and obeyed him seriously, as he was able to turn them into the armies of the nemesis. So entire people was left leaderless by a vampire, which is when Moe sort of took things from there.

Behemiel
29th Nov 2005, 19:31
That is very helpfull. But I mean the humans in the Ancient times. How did the young Moe, who just got his staff, manged to raley the humans to his cause? plus I wonder how did Moe get his staff I mean it could not have been from the Astral plane since it would have no matter in the phisical realm. Maybe the Elder gave him some instructions as to how to make it. And then imbued it with the power over vampiric hearts. Also the humas had to have weapons and armour and as slaves I doubt they had access to such things.

Kain said that the vampires raised or abducted humas who ware chosen by the pillars as their next guardians. And turned them when they became of age. Does that mean they waited till they grew up?

I also asume that when the vampires turned the new guardians into vampires the pillars automaticaly chose new guardians as the previous ones becam undead? So did Moe just have the luck of getting the staff befor his turrn or was there a whole set of first human guardinas who got turned and the next set just got lucky by having Moe in theyr team. In either case Moe had to be very young. About 18 or 20 since he was chosen to be a guardian but never got turned??

FearGhoul
30th Nov 2005, 03:36
I think that the staff was a Hylden weapon that the Ancient Vampires took to study and guard, and Moebius was instructed by the Elder God on how to get it.

soothsayer
30th Nov 2005, 19:25
But I mean the humans in the Ancient times. How did the young Moe, who just got his staff, manged to raley the humans to his cause?

You mean the Sarafan?
Well the circle had a lot of power, most humans hate bloodsucking fiends, and one thing lead to another.


plus I wonder how did Moe get his staff I mean it could not have been from the Astral plane since it would have no matter in the phisical realm.

As far as I can tell there is no Astral plane in Nosgoth.
There has only been the spectral, material and demonic.
And things don't work like in plane scape.
like how things in Planescape tend to be a unlimited number of infinite spaces.
Nosgoth tends to be an limited number of finite spaces.
The only way for a some thing can be infinite in Nosgoth is if it folds back on itself.

Personally, I believe the staff was created in the god pool.


I think that the staff was a Hylden weapon that the Ancient Vampires took to study and guard, and Moebius was instructed by the Elder God on how to get it.

Well, the whole biblical Snake staff look ain't really the Hylden's style.


Also the humas had to have weapons and armour and as slaves I doubt they had access to such things.

The sarafan was founded long after the ancients were wiped out by Moe and Mort.
So they wouldn't of been slaves at that point.


Kain said that the vampires raised or abducted humas who ware chosen by the pillars as their next guardians. And turned them when they became of age. Does that mean they waited till they grew up?

Yeah, Morti waited the same length to turn Kain.
It may be that they get there powers at thirty.
Or it might be some Ann Riceish ethic about not siring childen.
Since Vampires don't age normally, it would be unwise to have childish emperors.

On a side note, I believe it was during Moe's siring ceremony that he and Morti wiped out the ancients. Mostly because they would all be in one place.


I also asume that when the vampires turned the new guardians into vampires the pillars automaticaly chose new guardians as the previous ones becam undead?

No, Kain and his descendants were the only Vampire with undead status.
The Ancients and the blood cursed were technically alive, and could be killed, they just didn't die of natural causes.

Smoke_Z
1st Dec 2005, 00:00
I think that the staff was a Hylden weapon that the Ancient Vampires took to study and guard, and Moebius was instructed by the Elder God on how to get it.


Well, the whole biblical Snake staff look ain't really the Hylden's style.

The staff could've belonged to one of the ancients, and then it was imbued with its powers. Like it could've belonged to a cleric of the wheel.

I kinda get the impression that the ancients tried to cling to their old rituals and also had the children go through the same motions. The Elder could've spoken to Moebius while the ancients were in a futile communing ritual.

rabban
1st Dec 2005, 01:57
bah...the staff was given to him by EG...if the very scientific hylden had that weapon they would own nosgoth.

soothsayer
1st Dec 2005, 04:25
And I doubt the ancients would have a weapon thats only power would only render the caster paralyzed.

Nexus Reaver
10th Dec 2005, 03:14
Alastor, one of the few of the Raziel clan which escaped the genocide and fled south of nosgoth. Having lived for centuries in a cave he has gone mad. Was the last of his kind to grow wings not long after his sire, raziel. The last mark of the raziel clan is branded on his arm.

dumah's wraith
10th Dec 2005, 21:40
hmm... interesting. i think i'll make an attempt.The Kain, kain's personal guard in sr.adults have chamelionic skin.or maybe...Martin, one of vorador's generals who fled nosgoth with the remainder of vorador's brood once kain turned on them.

rabban
10th Dec 2005, 21:51
hmm...i'd assume a body guard for kain if he needed any would be comprised of the best of each brood. one of zephon's one of dumah's etc.

dumah's wraith
10th Dec 2005, 22:17
makes sense.interesting battle[turelim uses telekenisis to knock him into water, rahabim strikes +flees,zephonim falls on him when he gets out, melchahim comes up beneath+dumahim finishes him off.when he comes back they get him drunk and steal his banner and the reaver+and send him back to the elder god,and since time is frozen in the spectral realm hhe's in apermanent state of drunkenness + bets his soul he can out swim the elder who agrees, unable to resist, but in order to win he must relinquish his hold on the pillars and nosgoth is restored.in absorbing his soul the elder gains his drunkeness and picks a fight with a bigger fish.

Azrael Archangel
13th Dec 2005, 14:20
yeah it does actually. But the whole staff thing being made by the Hylden? wouldn't the ancients have created a weapon to the same thing to the Hylden?

rabban
14th Dec 2005, 06:03
hmm what is that gigantic landmark in nosgoth do... ;)

FearGhoul
14th Dec 2005, 06:40
yeah it does actually. But the whole staff thing being made by the Hylden? wouldn't the ancients have created a weapon to the same thing to the Hylden?

Why? It could have been designed to cripple anyone with the curse.

Behemiel
15th Dec 2005, 22:54
I still think the Elder created the damn staff.

Vagabond_Angel
10th Jun 2006, 18:24
Anyone else see the air reaver symbol inside the staff orb on sr2? I think it was in defiance also... The snake spiraling around a staff could also be found inside the sr2 air forge...

Another question about the staff... Does it only effect ancients? The blue skin ones I mean...
It was used in the human revolt and worked...
It was used against Janos and worked...

however...

Raziel is vampiric and it didnt effect him...
Vorador put up a fight when moebious came for him when the staff should have paralized him so that he could be taken in but a few seconds...
And it didnt effect kain once Janos audrons heart was removed...

Smoke_Z
11th Jun 2006, 02:55
Response to Vagabond Angel's post above....

Maybe it affects the blood. (Or the genetic structure, which would be introduced into the sired vamps by viral means.)

It might have a stronger effect on vampires that are closer in generation to the ancients, though balanced out by age. Younger vampires would have a dillution of effect, but less resistance to it. Vorador is first generation, but also is pretty old.

Raziel could have a lot of the vampiric vector rinsed away, giving him almost an imperceptable effect. Without Janos' heart, Kain's vector is also lessened.

The_Hylden
11th Jun 2006, 17:37
It does affect Raziel's Wraith Blade form, remember? Again, Kain's lineage is different, carrying the soul deeper than just the body, all the way to the very soul. Raziel isn't affected, himself, but then the staff seems to be to only affect where the curse of vampirism resides. I always took it that Raziel's body kept him immune to the affects of the staff. It affects his unprotected Wraith Blade form by not allowing it to manifest in the material realm, but Raziel's body keeps that from happening to him. This seems the same when talking about Kain. It affected Janos' heart while inside of Kain, but, once removed, it could not penetrate to his soul in order to affect him directly. His body no longer carried a part of it that was directly was cursed. The direct portion of him that carries the curse is deeper within his soul.

As far as Voarador, Moebius says, "We have him, but not without a considerable price in blood." Now, if his troops attacked Vorador first before he got there, then they would have had to fight him without Moebius' staff. Perhaps they were impetuous, or perhaps Moebius ordered it on purpose to produce more martyrs to the cause -- more of a reason to hate. This is, supposedly, one of the last vampires in Nosgoth, no reason to capture him so quickly and easily. Make them work for it:p

Third, I never saw any Air Forge symbol in his staff. In SR2, you see a reflection of three lights, presumably lights in the room he is in, like candle lights, or the lights from sconces. The PC version omits these three lights and offers up a more generic orb.

http://www.ripsystem.com/nosgoth/screens/srshot17.JPG

As you can see there.

This is also how it appears in the intro to SR2, with a swirling glow of its own.

http://images.legacyofkain.net/sr2/captures/intro/moebius_03.jpg

I can't find a good screen of Moebius in Defiance for some reason and don't feel like continuing my search right now:p

Behemiel
11th Jun 2006, 20:37
Well we know that Janosys heart was the only thing conecting Kain with the blood made vampires like Vorador. That is why it affected Kain cos the hear has the essece of the vampiric course. The same with Raziel and the wraith blade. The reaver is the manifested essence of the cuorse. As to the symbols I have no idea. Did you try to get the screen at the end of Defiance when Moe is talking to the EG in the sprit fordge just befor Kain flotes down?

The_Hylden
11th Jun 2006, 21:43
That was my point: the heart was the only physical part of Kain that was affected. The Wraith Blade carried the curse, as would Raziel's or Kain's inner souls, not their bodies.

I have Defiance for PC, but not on this computer. Those screen shots are off of other sites. Unfortunately, the largest, most dependable archive of pics, timestreamer, has seemed to be lost to the ether, no longer in operation by its owner. Shame. I am sure the screen shots are on other sites somewhere, though. I just don’t feel much like looking for them.

Behemiel
12th Jun 2006, 20:52
From what I have observed a lot of good LoK sites are down. And it does not look like they will be up any time soon. A shame!!