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kiss-bite
11th Oct 2005, 15:20
Hmm..... (one eyebrow raised)

I've recently read a few articles & comments about how Lara is returning to her roots(TR1)and how Core did this & that wrong with TR & Lara! How Toby Gard has returned like some kind of saviour for the Tomb Raider series. Also the age old boring debate on Lara's breasts!

Why do Lara's breasts always have to be such an issue. She's a female character, she has breasts! What does it matter what size they are!

She's also a very cool, intelligent strong character! Besides, a lead character, male or female, is always aimed to appeal to a certain audience or as many people as possible!

Toby Gard created a truly great character, the blue print. However, after he left Core, Lara's character evoled over the course of 4 more games. Her outfits, vehicles & history ect...

Lara is only as good as the games she's in, TR was a success because of the game too, the environments, tombs which Toby Gard didn't design!

The Lara we know & love wouldn't be who she is without those other games, which Toby Gard wasn't a part of. TR gained a lot of fans from TRII & TRIII! In my opinion TR11 is one of the best!

I'm pleased he's a part of the Legend team as he's the original character architect. But TR & Lara are what they are because of all that's happend in the series history. Afte rall without AOD we wouldn't have Legend! I think Legend could be the ultimate TR game!

Oh, Legend Lara doesn't look like a drug addict!? I also think her breasts (sigh) look fine. I think it's an amazing job done! Evolving from cartoon-esque character to a very realistic character, yet keeping Lara recognisable.

The Tr-series & Lara have come a long way to become TR-Legend.

dhama
11th Oct 2005, 15:31
............... I think it's an amazing job done! Evolving from cartoon-esque character to a very realistic character, yet keeping Lara recognisable.


Except when she climbs (jumps like Wyl E Coyote ) up onto a ledge.. :rolleyes:

LaraAngelOfDarkness
11th Oct 2005, 20:56
Except when she climbs (jumps like Wyl E Coyote ) up onto a ledge.. :rolleyes:

But I like how she cimbs up ledges now :( ........................

Sophia Leigh
11th Oct 2005, 23:55
kiss-bite, I couldn't agree with you more :thumbsup:

Raven
12th Oct 2005, 01:43
I feel that all the existing TR games, including AoD, have been essential contributions to the series and to Lara's character.

It's a great shame that, having enjoyed the fruits of Core's labour for the last ten years, fans and critics alike are now uniting to criticise TRs 2-6 and dismiss them as not worth playing. One major gaming magazine recently described them as a "five-game streak of crimes against the videogame community," a comment that would be laughable if it weren't so nasty.

Even Crystal Dynamics are weighing in. In one of the recent interviews, I read that one of the developers said that TRs 2-6 were "all the same" and that anyone who hadn't played them hadn't missed anything. Personally, I think that to knock the efforts of your predecessors in this way simply makes you look petty.

It seems that most people are unable to discuss or promote Legend without slagging off previous games, especially the much-maligned AoD. I find this very disappointing. Gaming critics in particular seem to have very short memories. All the TR games other than AoD got very good reviews when they were first released, and seem to have been greatly enjoyed by fans also. Yet a few years down the line, the critics are turning round and ranting about how awful they were.

If Legend really is that good, its quality should be self evident. As for Toby Gard, I'm sure he'll do his best but I don't think he's the godlike Lara guru that some people seem to portray him as. I understand that it was only Lara's physical appearance that he created, whereas her background and bio were written by other Core employees.

Sophia Leigh
12th Oct 2005, 02:05
If Legend really is that good, its quality should be self evident. As for Toby Gard, I'm sure he'll do his best but I don't think he's the godlike Lara guru that some people seem to portray him as. I understand that it was only Lara's physical appearance that he created, whereas her background and bio were written by other Core employees.

I agree, the guy might have "created" Lara but he only created the character not the game. Also he abandoned Lara after the first game and hasn't helped her "grow". TR1 was only the bait on the hook for me, the rest of the games (which Toby Gard has had nothing to do with) are what have developed me into the die-hard Tomb Raider fan that I am now.

WraithStar
12th Oct 2005, 03:16
I think that TR1-4 were pretty much the same, except Lara got a few new moves in each game. TR5 was a little different, and AoD was very different. That's not meant as an insult, merely a statement of fact. I like TR1-3 a lot. TR4 dragged on, TR5 was a little strange, especially with Pierre and Larson alive again :p but I still liked it. I liked AoD as well, but not anywhere near as much as the first three games. Legend looks like it's going to be awesome. I'm sure it will stand on its own merit, not just because a lot of people are going out of their way to insult the previous games. As for Lara's physical appearance, in some of the previous games it was so unrealistic that it seemed laughable to me. I think she looks a lot more reasonable in Legend. The one-handed pull-up was a bit much, though. No one could be that strong :rolleyes:

Lux Knight
12th Oct 2005, 14:29
Toby Gard's attitude towards TR1-5 and esspecially AOD somewhat suprises me in an unpleasant way.
By the way, he is not the only who does that. A few other guys from CrystalD spoke in the same way.
I think its not very smart to do that, they try to attract people to the game but at the same time they are, in a way, insulting everyone who played the previous games.
I have a feeling they concentrate on people who lost faith in the series years ago (after the first game) and ignore all the people who played the five games onwards (and maybe also have their doubts but still remain positive about the series).
I think TR7 should be a game that pleases the fans in the first place. If the graphics, controlls and gameplay are polished up to modern standars the rest of the gaming public will follow automaticly.

WraithStar
12th Oct 2005, 17:47
It's probably a calculated marketing move. Fans of the series will most likely buy the next game regardless of what they say, so they are trying to draw in people who didn't like the previous games. If they don't go too far and they manage to make more money because of whatever they are saying, then that means a better prospect for TR8:) I haven't even heard any of this talk, really, since I've only watched the gameplay trailers and read a few reviews that someone here linked to, so I guess that's why it doesn't bother me :rolleyes:

The*angel*of*darkness
12th Oct 2005, 18:36
I think its sad that Toby Gard just walks in on the scene after not being apart of the francise since the first developpment and suddenly its like he is going to fix everything.

Altough her created her (and I respect him for that) I think he hasn't got the right to just walk in after abandoning her and saying that he is going to make it all better.

And what makes it worse is that he is completely ignoring all the other games. I luv all of them and i think of them have a huge importance in Lara's history and to ignore them would be stupid.

Trinity34
12th Oct 2005, 22:43
He did not abandon Lara, he just did not like the way Eidos was marketing her.

kiss-bite
13th Oct 2005, 09:02
I'm under the impression that Legend is a continuation of TR1. I think this is a great idea too. It takes TR full-circle back to its origins. We learn more about how Lara became a tomb raider, which I think is an ideal premise for a new TR game at this point in the series. TR4 explored this part of Lara's history a little.

But as I said before. The Tr-series & Lara have come a long way to become TR-Legend. Between TR1 & Legend the games are great. Full of great memorable levels, characters & events. Legend would not exist without these events despite the timeline. TR & Lara's success & the success Legend has, are & still is possible because of Cores continuation after TR1.

Say if you only played TR1 & Legend (only the games with Toby Gard on board), a whole lot of fun & great gameplay would have been missed in between!

WraithStar
13th Oct 2005, 16:43
Look at it this way--From TR2-4, the stories were pretty much independent. The only reference to previous games was that Lara's little museum had some familiar artifacts in it. It's not such a break from the series for Legend to have a completely independent storyline as well. They aren't discarding the newer games, they just aren't building upon them either, like those games did not really build upon each other. I think it has been confirmed that Lara's mansion will return. Maybe they'll have all of the familiar artifacts set up on display for us. :D That would be a nice way to subtly acknowledge the other games in the series without dwelling on them because, as far as I'm concerned, finished stories shouldn't be rewritten with each successive game.

TheBoo
13th Oct 2005, 20:10
I've enjoyed all the TR games, including bonus levels and "gold" releases. Even AOD hasn't been a bad experience (so far :p ) because I waited to buy it after all the bugs had been fixed.

I haven't been keeping up with the negative commentary about the earlier games, but all those critical folks should consider that, without TR2 through TR-AOD, we might not even be talking about a new Legend game. Those games are part of the journey that has brought us to this point in time. What would we have had to fill the void between TR1 and Legend?

So, I think all the games have a rightful place in TR history. To be slagging off on them now smacks of a superiority complex. It's easy to be critical with the benefit of hindsight.

Raven
14th Oct 2005, 09:44
Look at it this way--From TR2-4, the stories were pretty much independent. The only reference to previous games was that Lara's little museum had some familiar artifacts in it. It's not such a break from the series for Legend to have a completely independent storyline as well. They aren't discarding the newer games, they just aren't building upon them either, like those games did not really build upon each other. I think it has been confirmed that Lara's mansion will return. Maybe they'll have all of the familiar artifacts set up on display for us. :D That would be a nice way to subtly acknowledge the other games in the series without dwelling on them because, as far as I'm concerned, finished stories shouldn't be rewritten with each successive game.

You know, I actually don't have any inherent problem with Legend's storyline, I'm quite eager to see something of Lara's history re: the Himalayan plane crash and her first forays into raiding. The plane crash and its aftermath have become "legendary" in Tomb Raider continuity, and it'll be interesting to actually visit that period of Lara's life.

But, as a big fan of AoD's storyline, I am disappointed that it won't be continued, when I think it was very intelligent and carefully researched. It was of course let down by the finished game which was only about half-completed, and missed out a lot of the story. What disappoints me in particular is that TRs 4-6 essentially formed a trilogy, which has now come to an abrupt and premature end with most of the major questions still unanswered-Kurtis' fate, the Nephilim, how Lara cleared her name of the Monstrum murders, what happened after she got buried in the Pyramid. Unless Crystal Dynamics decideds to pick up on this further down the line, it seems that we'll never know the answers. That leaves us with some major gaps in TR history and continuity, even while others are being filled by Legend.

As I said before, though, my main gripe is with the way earlier TR games have become the whipping boy for the gaming community. And I still really disapprove of Crystal Dynamics making mean comments about them. It doesn't do anything for their image.

Mangar The Dark
14th Oct 2005, 15:54
Sorry, didn't have time to read all of the comments here, so I may be repeating, but I remember reading Toby's comments a long time ago (when TR2 came out), and he wasn't particularly happy with it even back then. He didn't state specifics, but he said he would have done things differently, and I have to agree that TR2 was a bit of a misdirection for the franchise. So I don't think he's just bashing 2-6 now as some kind of marketing ploy-- I think he was genuinely disappointed with the direction they took the series. True, he abandoned the series after the first game, but I don't think that means he's not entitled to express an opinion about the direction one of his creations took. (imagine if you wrote a story, and somebody else took the main character and started writing sequels, but didn't handle the character the way you felt he/she should be handled-- wouldn't you feel entitled to say something, even if you weren't interested in continuing the series yourself? I would.)

Having said that, I did enjoy TR3 somewhat, and TR4 was great since they tried to recapture what made the series work in the first place (maybe they stayed more true to Toby's vision in that one?)

Xxx_Lara_xxX
14th Oct 2005, 22:20
"Toby Gard created a truly great character, the blue print. However, after he left Core, Lara's character evoled over the course of 4 more games... TR was a success because of the game too, the environments, tombs which Toby Gard didn't design!"


Toby Gard is to Lara Croft what Steven Spielburg is to Indiana Jones. Spielberg imagined and created Indiana Jones and he is the only one who can truly DO an Indy movie. Have you ever read Indy fanfic? Most of it is awful because some writers are terribly unimaginative in their interpretation of Spielberg's creation -- not witty, it lacks the right tone and atmosphere, and a few priceless artifacts here and there are NOT Indiana Jones. Did Steven Spielberg personally design the tombs indy was in? No that was done by set decorators. Set decorators and costumers do not make Indiana Jones. Spielberg's personal VISION creates that one and only Indy, his enemies, dialogue, ironies and adventures.

AOD was at best, a 3D Lara Croft fan fic gone terribly wrong. It was an interpretation of a character who had already been interpreted by people who were not the original inventor --- and it shows in the lack of direction and the utterly non-TR feel of the entire game. TR slowly started losing popularity after the sequel and the growing complaint that TR was 'getting old' with each subsequent game just goes to show what happens when others try to imitate a unique individual vision. From TR2 and onwards fans and critics had been complaining about too much emphasis on pushing blocks -- but Core, too proud to listen to their fans, actually forces people to push random blocks to 'gain strength' in AOD or else be stuck forever. Its beyond shameful --just unbelievable! :eek: Maybe that's part of the reason why CD has a suggestions thread.

TR & Lara are what they are because of all that's happend in the series history. Afte rall without AOD we wouldn't have Legend!

:confused: AOD was a monumental flop. Lara had been an international icon, now her reputation is in tatters and some people are embarrassed to admit they are TR fans...
I believe pride stopped Core from asking Toby to come back years ago when they desperately needed him back. A sense of 'we don't need him, we can do a TR game just as well' ... then Chronicles and finally AOD happen, but did it really have to come to that??

Even if Legend made not a single reference to any game after TR1 (this would be a great thing -- no Von Croy mystery murder melodrama), it could easily be the best in the series, and the true sequel that us longtime TR1 fans have been waiting for since 1997. ;)

kiss-bite
15th Oct 2005, 00:06
I have to say I think you give Toby Gard far too much credit. CD are responsible for Legend looking so impressive as a game. Toby Gard is responsible for Lara looking so impressive as a character !! Also, Steven Spielburg as a director has a creative vision & the people to assist him in creating that vision. A film, game ect.. Is a combination of many talents even if they don't get as much credit. Anyhow, I don't think you can say Toby Gard has the same creative power over Legend as Spielburg has over his film projects!

Also I've not tried to dis-respect Toby Gard. Like I said he created a truly great character when he created Lara & I'm ever so impressed with the Lara in Legend! I had faith in CD as I'm a fan of the Legacy of Kain series, I know they can create great games! I just think all the TR games betwen TR1 & TRL are important to me & a lot of other fans! These games are what made TR grow & gain more & more fans after the success of the original.

So XxxLaraxxX, you didn't enjoy TR2-5? Legend features vehicles & cities, outside environments & new moves because these elements expanded the TR-world. These features began from TR2 onwards. If TR2-5 hadn't made these expansions to the TR series & Lara was always underground, it would of been criticised! I love TR1 & I'm a longtime fan who has enjoyed most of Laras other adventures. Legend maybe taking Lara back to her roots but there woudn't be anything to take her back to without the other games.

Raven
15th Oct 2005, 06:33
Toby Gard is to Lara Croft what Steven Spielburg is to Indiana Jones. Spielberg imagined and created Indiana Jones and he is the only one who can truly DO an Indy movie.

Actually, George Lucas created the Indiana Jones character, and then invited his friend Spielberg to direct the project.


AOD was at best, a 3D Lara Croft fan fic gone terribly wrong. It was an interpretation of a character who had already been interpreted by people who were not the original inventor

Again, you're giving Gard too much credit. I'm not trying to dismiss or downplay his considerable contribution to the TR universe, but he was not responsible for every aspect of Lara or the first TR game. You focus on the notion that Lara's character has been "reinterpreted" by people other than Gard-the fact is that he never fully created her character in the first place. He designed her physical appearance and gave her the briefest of backstories-the fact that she was British and upper-class-and then other Core employees like Vicky Arnold and Suzie Hamilton filled in her bio. and character.

Computer and Video Games magazine UK ran a special edition for the release of AoD which included an extensive feature on the genesis of Tomb Raider. All the above info. is in there and Toby Gard himself is quoted as saying, "My initial background story for Lara Croft was extremely sketchy."


--- and it shows in the lack of direction and the utterly non-TR feel of the entire game.


I'd disagree that it feels non-TR. It's different, certainly, but at the end of the day you're still using Lara's wits and physical abilities to guide her around a varied series of often-hazardous environments in search of artifacts and the solution to a mystery. The fundamental gameplay is still the same.
As for the lack of direction, I think you do have a point there, but what must be kept in mind at all time when judging AoD is that it was released half-finished due to Eidos wanting it to be released before the end of their financial year 2003-a good four months before it was originally scheduled. Not only that but several important members of the development team left during production, because of the intense pressure, meaning that entire sections of the game were never fully implemented, such as the role-playing element/strength upgrades. Admittedly these were worthless in the version of AoD we're playing, but that's not due to poor design.



:confused: AOD was a monumental flop.

Commercially, AoD did very well and was one of the top selling games of the year. Critically, the response was poor, but at the end of the day a critic's opinion is as subjective as anyone else's. And I repeat that AoD was only a shadow of what the original vision for it was, and that's why it deserves to be continued so that all the potential and hard work done on it originally won't go to waste.


I believe pride stopped Core from asking Toby to come back years ago when they desperately needed him back. A sense of 'we don't need him, we can do a TR game just as well' ... then Chronicles and finally AOD happen, but did it really have to come to that??

Toby wasn't booted out by Core, he chose to leave to start his own company (which was far from a success story) and he left shortly after TR1 was released, before it even really hit the big time. Had he wanted to stay and influence Lara further, he could have done so. He was apparently unhappy with the highly sexualised way in which Eidos were marketing Lara-I can see his point, but at the same time, he was the one who gave her the Penthouse proportions that actively encourage that kind of approach. Come on, you don't make a woman that curvy, that well-endowed, that sensuous, dress her in skin tight shorts and hotpants and then claim that you see her as being "demure and untouchable", as he once did.


Even if Legend made not a single reference to any game after TR1 (this would be a great thing -- no Von Croy mystery murder melodrama), it could easily be the best in the series, and the true sequel that us longtime TR1 fans have been waiting for since 1997. ;)

I don't expect that Legend will make any reference to any subsquent TR games. This is not in itself a bad thing, but TR2 is the sequel to TR1, and always will be. It's one of the most popular of the series with the vast majority of fans, despite containing precious little in the way of actual tombs, and I think it's unwise of Crystal Dynamics to try to retroactively displace it.

kiss-bite
15th Oct 2005, 11:55
Hey Raven, :) are you the same Raven as the Raven on TRC-forum? If so I haven't seen you there for a while?

susan
15th Oct 2005, 18:03
What I love about TR is the gameplay. I thought by employing Toby, Crystal were re-employing the very person who had conceived and created the ideas, levels and gameplay of TR1.

If it isn't Toby then whoever that person is, the genius lies with them and I wish they'd employ them and put them in overall charge of the project.

Like kiss-bite says, Lara is only as good as the game she's in. Doesn't matter how pretty or kick ass she looks, without good gameplay she's mere glittery tinsel on an empty box. For most people anyway. I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on. I'm not one of them.

Xxx_Lara_xxX
16th Oct 2005, 00:34
There is nothing that will convince me that AOD, a sub-par game on every level, was even remotely a success. If your yardstick of success is the extent to which hype brings in cash, then this is one reason why TR needed to be transferred to another group. As a longtime TR fan I bought my AOD copy on sale (it went into the dumpster bin pretty quickly here) and was so bored with the non-TR story and frustrated with the push-block strength upgrade and multiple death/reload/death/reload scenarios, the camera and control issues, I never even finished and when I tried to sell it on EBay I couldn't even get a dollar for it because no one else wanted it. No one would pay $1 which is about 1/2 pound. On the other hand, when I sold my old copies of TR1 -3 together it sold for $29, and those are old games
Even Paramount attributed the Cradle of Life's failure to AOD, if I remember correctly

TR1 is the series standout because it was original, full of surprises from start to finish, a great game with an involving story and revolutionary for its time. TR2 was very good but it didn't break any new ground, no one describes TR2 as being revolutionary. TR3 was clearly a rehash and things only got worse from there on. I think its fair to say that as graphics improved the games began sinking into mediocrity. I attribute this to a lack of clear direction and understanding of the character. The FMV's became sillier and less interesting, and Lara loses her upper class reserve and became a snappy, sarcastic bimbo. Ie, in TR1 she is robbed and faces a life or death struggle against her adversary, and chooses to risk death by diving off of a mountain into a river, in AOD she swan dives out of a flaming sewer. If this wasn't meant as a ludicrous caricature, then it is simply a pathetic attempt to mimic the original TR. Did someone forget to ask, why would an archaeologist, a titled aristocrat, be swimming in filthy fecal urine water from Paris toilets? Tombs are old, lonely and frightening, but urban sewer water is revolting. Would an archaeologist ever use explosives to blow a hole in the side of a museum? Would a passageway ever be located behind the Mona Lisa, one of the most priceless and guarded pieces of art in the world ? Why are rotting roman centurions from approx 400 BC, guarding a steam engine developed more than 1000 years later?

The scale of the ineptitude in the last TR goes beyond anything I have seen in another game, except maybe The Thing. It was very sad to see and I truly believe that the root cause was a misunderstanding of who Lara was originally supposed to be. The original Lara was so iconic that even the Matrix stole the elevator cable-clipping scene for their movie which came out 2 years later (where neo and trinity shoot the elevator suspension cable to reach the rooftop)-- if it wasn't Toby, then whoever wrote the FMV scripts for TR1 needs to be brought back at any cost because those were by far the best action sequences of any TR game.

Which is not to say that all other games were purely rubbish, the vehicles and changing outfits were nice additions. But the soul of TR was lost at some point, the gameplay began to feel stale and cliche, and Toby is the ideal person to restore TR's unique brand of surprises, atmosphere, gameplay and character.

robson001
16th Oct 2005, 00:38
... the soul of TR was lost at some point, the gameplay began to feel stale and cliche, and Toby is the ideal person to restore TR's unique brand of surprises, atmosphere, gameplay and character.
Mine words exactly :thumbsup: .

Sophia Leigh
16th Oct 2005, 02:44
if it wasn't Toby, then whoever wrote the FMV scripts for TR1 needs to be brought back at any cost because those were by far the best action sequences of any TR game.


While Toby Gard had the original concept and created Lara's character, it was Vicky Arnold who wrote the script - she also wrote the script for TR2 & TR3.

CatSuit&Ponytail
16th Oct 2005, 09:18
I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on.
Well, I do actually play the games too. ;) It's the adventure, the searching for the one secret way into an area, the exploring the vast landscapes that is the most rewarding. It's the finding of well hidden objects, switches, new areas, puzzling over how things ought to work, and using the character's abilities myself to advance, that make it a fun game for me. I like to play exciting characters in exotic locations, and enjoy stopping to smell the roses while I do it. We all enjoy different things about the games we play, and that's expected. Having begun computer gaming in the text adventure era (before that pen/paper), graphics became an added bonus to the adventure, not a replacement for it. I don't think there's anyone out there who plays a game just like I do, but I do know that a pretty character and surroundings count for something.

Have a nice day. :) I'll be having one, gaming a pretty, exciting game. :)

susan
16th Oct 2005, 14:19
I do know that a pretty character and surroundings count for something.Of course they do. Nothing in my post contradicts this and to be clear, I totally agree. :)

Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like you've taken it personally when I said "I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on." There's no reason to. It's just an acknowledgment that some people enjoy TR for different reasons than my own. Or as you rightly say, "We all enjoy different things about the games we play, and that's expected."


Have a nice day. :) I'll be having one, gaming a pretty, exciting game. :) :confused: Thank you, I think.

Mangar The Dark
16th Oct 2005, 16:25
I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on. I'm not one of them.

Do people actually do that?? Wow... that's a sign of a sad, empty life. If anyone here is doing that, might I suggest just going to that little back room of your local video store and and least looking at some real women?

CatSuit&Ponytail
16th Oct 2005, 20:57
"Originally Posted by Susan
I know some people would enjoy simply staring at her for hours on end in different poses and so on."
Do people actually do that?? Wow... that's a sign of a sad, empty life. If anyone here is doing that, might I suggest just going to that little back room of your local video store and and least looking at some real women?
Um, actually, I'm one of those sad lonely people with an empty life. :p Enjoying the art in a gallery is somehow more acceptable than enjoying the art in a game. I call that silly. If I made a game and spent years making it as pretty as I could, I'd be really disgusted if some folks thought it wrong for others to enjoy the fruit of my hard labour.


"Originally Posted by CatSuit&Ponytail
Have a nice day. :) I'll be having one, gaming a pretty, exciting game. :)"
Thank you, I think.
No need to worry about it, some folks haven't realized that when I say something, I mean it. :) When I wish someone happiness, I mean it. When I give advice, it's out of a wish to be helpful. The pretty exciting game I was meaning was Guild Wars, this time, and even in that game I spend most of the time marveling at the wonderful graphics and I could sit admiring the characters and landscapes for hours. I just bought new armour and am astounded at how cool it looks! :D

Sophia Leigh
17th Oct 2005, 01:07
The pretty exciting game I was meaning was Guild Wars, this time, and even in that game I spend most of the time marveling at the wonderful graphics and I could sit admiring the characters and landscapes for hours. I just bought new armour and am astounded at how cool it looks! :D

That does look like a very pretty game :D From what everyone says about it, it sounds like a game I could get addicted too, which is why I have avoided buying it! I spend way too much playing Tomb Raider as it is :D

CatSuit&Ponytail
17th Oct 2005, 10:59
That does look like a very pretty game :D From what everyone says about it, it sounds like a game I could get addicted too, which is why I have avoided buying it! I spend way too much playing Tomb Raider as it is :D
Hey Mum, :) I avoided online games like the plague since the days of Ultima....but this one doesn't really feel like it's online. You really don't ever have to deal with nitwits or cretins at all. :thumbsup: :cool: I like the game a lot, but really haven't been addicted to anything since Morrowind. :D

I usually have several games "on the go" at once....sometimes I even manage to finish some. :D Also, I always have the TR games loaded for quick insertions when the spirit wills. ;)

KHollister
17th Oct 2005, 13:04
What? Paramount blamed AOD for the failure of "Cradle of Life"?

Okay, I will admit I thought the series took a wrong turn beginning with TR5, but let's face it -- both Tomb Raider movies were absolutely horrid! First, Angelina Jolie was not the best actress for the job (tattoos and colligen-injected lips don't impress me). Second, they turned Lara into some sleazy, trailer-park trash -- not the well-mannered aristocrat she is. They gave her a young butler with a different name, and teamed her up with a techno-geek sidekick. And that's just the first movie -- the second one was just as bad.

TR5 took a big wrong turn -- If memory serves me well, Lara (as a young woman) survived a plane crash on her way to a ski trip and became an adventurer after the incident. But with the introduction of TR5, what little we knew about Lara's past changed completely -- she suddenly became a bratty kid in pigtails searching for adventure by following a lecherous old man. And after Vony Croy disappeared in the beginning of TR5, he showed up later as the wheelchair-bound CEO of a large corporation? What's with that?

TR6 was only slightly better. As someone said before, Lara should be exploring tombs, not walking down dark Parisian alleys chatting with prositutes. And Tomb Raider is for Lara Croft -- not Curtis Trent (apologies to you Curtis fans).

I don't care who's to blame for the bad changes, I just want Lara back, the way she's supposed to be. And if Toby Gard can do that, good for him.

Sorry for the rant... but I feel very strongly about this.

Mangar The Dark
17th Oct 2005, 14:28
Um, actually, I'm one of those sad lonely people with an empty life. :p Enjoying the art in a gallery is somehow more acceptable than enjoying the art in a game. I call that silly. If I made a game and spent years making it as pretty as I could, I'd be really disgusted if some folks thought it wrong for others to enjoy the fruit of my hard labour.

If you're admiring the work that was put into the game's art, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I was just referring to people who, um, "enjoy" looking at Lara a little too much because of her "assets." :D

Trinity34
17th Oct 2005, 15:36
I think its sad that Toby Gard just walks in on the scene after not being apart of the francise since the first developpment and suddenly its like he is going to fix everything.

Altough her created her (and I respect him for that) I think he hasn't got the right to just walk in after abandoning her and saying that he is going to make it all better.

And what makes it worse is that he is completely ignoring all the other games. I luv all of them and i think of them have a huge importance in Lara's history and to ignore them would be stupid.

I don't know if you know this or not... but if you look at SCi's list of games, Galleon is on the list and its only for Xbox. So... Toby Gard was working with/for SCi at the time they bought Eidos. Pretty interesting, huh? http://www.tombraiderforums.com/forums/graemlins/whistle.gif This might also explain the reason for the hype around Xbox/Xbox360.

Mangar The Dark
17th Oct 2005, 16:17
And what makes it worse is that he is completely ignoring all the other games. I luv all of them and i think of them have a huge importance in Lara's history and to ignore them would be stupid.

Well, none of the games really paid much attention to the previous ones. I mean, there were no references to TR1 in TR2 (not that I remember, anyway), and same with TR3. Then in TR4 and TR5, they rewrote Lara's history. The idea of her becoming an adventurer after surviving a plane crash was done away with in those games.
So, I don't think it really matters too much that Legend stands on its own-- it's the way TR games have always been (well, okay, TR4, 5 and 6 had some continuity, but aside from Larson and Pierre in TR5, they ignored the first 3 games.)

susan
17th Oct 2005, 17:21
Do people actually do that?? Wow... that's a sign of a sad, empty life. If anyone here is doing that, might I suggest just going to that little back room of your local video store and and least looking at some real women?LOL Mangar, provocative as ever! :D


TR5 took a big wrong turn -- she suddenly became a bratty kid in pigtails searching for adventureI thought she was a bit of a brat too and this was a rather uninspired piece of backstory... In TR4 it was handled a bit better and the tweaking of her story was almost excusable because of Von Croy, who imo was an excellent character and worthy adversary.


...I spend most of the time marveling at the wonderful graphics and I could sit admiring the ... landscapes for hours.Even though the graphics are very dated, there's still something about the environments in TR (especially TR1) that sucks my imagination in fully even now. If Crystal can match Core here I'll be (a) amazed and (b) very, very pleased. :D

midroth
17th Oct 2005, 17:28
... If Crystal can match Core here I'll be (a) amazed and (b) very, very pleased. :DIf Crystal makes no brain dead game...

Mangar The Dark
17th Oct 2005, 17:28
Even though the graphics are very dated, there's still something about the environments in TR (especially TR1) that sucks my imagination in fully even now. If Crystal can match Core here I'll be (a) amazed and (b) very, very pleased. :D

I know what you mean. Looking at a still shot of The Lost Valley, it looks pretty pathetic by today's standards... but when I'm actually playing it, and Lara is running alongside that underground waterfall, it just feels real somehow. If Legend can create environments like that, but with today's technology, it'll be great. From the screenshots I've seen so far, it looks like they may actually succeed!

Black Raybe
17th Oct 2005, 18:46
AOD was at best, a 3D Lara Croft fan fic gone terribly wrong.

Hmmm... have you actually ever read any Tomb Raider fanfiction? The majority of it is appalling, and reads like a child's picture book or some other mindless drivel. In most cases, the only fanfiction worth reading is those which continue the storyline and characters introduced in Angel of Darkness. This is because the plot was well researched, intelligent, thought-provoking and very gripping. Years on, many people are still debating aspects of it. Who exactly was the Golden Lion? Are there other Nephilim out there? What is the exact history of the Cabal/Lux Veritatis wars? The list goes on and on.

The plot of Legend sounds like a piece of bad fanfiction to me. They are falling back on old habits and outdated cliches. At least Angel of Darkness was going in a new direction, one that many (including myself) respect for its originality and intelligence. I guess gamers nowadays would rather blow things up than be challenged by a thought-provoking plot, which justifies a character's actions and evolution throughout the game. It's a real shame.

susan
17th Oct 2005, 18:54
If Crystal makes no brain dead game...*laughs* Yes, that too! ;)


But when I'm actually playing it, and Lara is running alongside that underground waterfall, it just feels real somehow.Yes I agree. I don't know how it works but I think it must be about more than just increasing the number of pixels or graphical resolution (I don't know the correct terminology). AoD had this but I never once felt I was really in the Paris sewers, however I did feel I was in St Francis's Folly in TR1 (I even felt vertigo here the first few times I played).

Mangar The Dark
17th Oct 2005, 19:48
The plot of Legend sounds like a piece of bad fanfiction to me. They are falling back on old habits and outdated cliches. At least Angel of Darkness was going in a new direction, one that many (including myself) respect for its originality and intelligence. I guess gamers nowadays would rather blow things up than be challenged by a thought-provoking plot, which justifies a character's actions and evolution throughout the game. It's a real shame.

You know, even though I'm not a huge fan of AOD, I have to agree with you. I did like the fact they really took time to create a plot with some substance beyond just, "Stop the mean person from getting the powerful relic!" AOD and Last Revelation were the only two TR games with genuinely good stories (I loved the redemption aspect of Last Revelation's plot-- Lara's mindless and greedy pursuit of an artifact puts the world in peril, and she ultimately sacrifices herself to set things right again. It would have a been a great ending to the series, I think.)

There were a few elements of AOD's plot that annoyed me, but overall, it was the game's stronger points.

Legend's plot, so far, sounds like we're back to the simple, "Get the powerful artifact before the big mean scary guy does." But who knows? There well may be more to it, and I'd prefer not to know too much in advance, as that kind of ruings any element of surprise when playing.
(once the full plot is revealed, you won't see me on these boards.)

Raven
18th Oct 2005, 14:55
There is nothing that will convince me that AOD, a sub-par game on every level, was even remotely a success. If your yardstick of success is the extent to which hype brings in cash, then this is one reason why TR needed to be transferred to another group.

No, the amount of money made is not my exclusive yardstick of success, but it's not completely irrelevant, either. I mentioned AoD's impressive sales to pre-empt anyone reiterating the common misconception that AoD sold poorly (which many people cite as "proof" of how terrible it was)
As for for TR needing to be transferred to another group-perhaps what was really needed was that the original group simply be given enough time to finish the game properly?


As a longtime TR fan I bought my AOD copy on sale (it went into the dumpster bin pretty quickly here) and was so bored with the non-TR story and frustrated with the push-block strength upgrade and multiple death/reload/death/reload scenarios, the camera and control issues, I never even finished and when I tried to sell it on EBay I couldn't even get a dollar for it because no one else wanted it.

You obviously didn't have a lot of fun playing AoD, and while I sympathise, my own experience of the game was far more positive.
I thought the storyline was by far the best thing about AoD; intelligent, carefully researched with many subtle references and authentic background details (for those who care to delve a bit deeper-sadly, 90 % of the people who played the game probably won't) I really appreciated having a story which not only had substance, but one that you could really play through, as opposed to simply having the plot unfold only in cutscenes with little relevance to the actual gameplay.
As different as the story was from other games, it wasn't a complete turnaround-it still involved ancient artifacts and yes, to an extent, tombs.
Have you noticed how often variants of the phrase "running around the empty streets of Paris..." occur whenever someone criticises AoD? People who didn't like the game bemoan its urban nature to such an extent that you'd think the street levels were representative of the entire game. This has always seemed to me a misrepresentation of the relative amounts of time actually spent on the streets-you spend as least as much time in classic TR environments like the Hall of Seasons and Lost Domain, but these scarcely get a mention most of the time. Given that the urban levels came first, this leads me to suspect that many of AoD's detractors, like yourself, never even completed the game.
This is of course your choice, and if you weren't enjoying yourself, it's understandable that you wouldn't want to continue playing. But I think you have to accept that if you don't play the whole game, then you're not wholly qualified to judge it. I'd be interested to know exactly how far you did get before giving up.
(Also, how come we never hear people complaining that TR2 wasn't Tomb Raider because it was set in urban Venice, oil rigs, etc rather than tombs...)
Personally, playing on PC, I had no problems with the controls or camera (though I do wish the camera had been moveable-it wasn't on the PC version) I didn't suffer frequent random deaths, and while the strength upgrades were silly, they weren't a big enough part of the game to be anything but a minor annoyance for me. This just goes to show that everyone's experience of the game is subjective.

I'm not naive or starry-eyed about AoD. There was a lot wrong with it. But I feel strongly that the flaws are almost 100% attributable to the game being unfinished and not to any lack of competence on Core's part, or any inherent problems with the concept.


Even Paramount attributed the Cradle of Life's failure to AOD, if I remember correctly

They did, and quite unjustly. In actual fact, I think it was closer to the other way around...another reason AoD was released significantly ahead of schedule was partly because Eidos wanted it to coincide with the release of the movie in the hope that the two would cross-promote. This rush is the reason why AoD suffered so many quality control issues, and why significant sections of the game were half-implemented or had to be left out altogether.

I thought CoL was OK for a couple of hours mindless entertainment, but it was never going to score big with the critics, and many people were so put off by the equally low quality of the first movie that they wouldn't even bother seeing Cradle of Life (I very nearly didn't)

You may know of www.rottentomatoes.com, which brings together movie reviews from a wide variety of sources, and calculates an average rating for each film based on these different scores. Cradle of Life scored 23% , which speaks for itself-while AoD, for all the critical mauling it received, averaged at least twice that in most of its reviews.

While individual actors, scriptwriters and even directors will admit to making mistakes on movies, studio execs almost never will, so I see Paramount's attempts to blame AoD for CoL's failure as an outrageously unfair, but predictable cop-out; they were never going to publicly admit that they just made a poor movie.



TR1 is the series standout because it was original, full of surprises from start to finish, a great game with an involving story and revolutionary for its time. TR2 was very good but it didn't break any new ground, no one describes TR2 as being revolutionary. TR3 was clearly a rehash and things only got worse from there on. I think its fair to say that as graphics improved the games began sinking into mediocrity.

TR1 effectively invented a whole new genre of gaming, the 3rd person action/adventure, and introduced Lara as the star for the first time. I really don't think it's possible for any subsequent TR game to recreate that achievement-realistically the most you can expect is that they'll live up to it.
Whether the subequent TR games did this is a matter of opinion. Along with many other TR fans, I loved all the games in the series, and as for the common idea that they declined in quality and playability as the series progressed-I just don't see it.



I attribute this to a lack of clear direction and understanding of the character. The FMV's became sillier and less interesting, and Lara loses her upper class reserve and became a snappy, sarcastic bimbo.


Now there I can agree with you, at least in part. I was unhappy with the way Lara sometimes came across in TR4 and 5, because the way the voice actress delivered the lines seemed excessively sarcastic, and as though Lara despised everyone she spoke to. The incident in Rome with Pierre and the big pit also put me off, as it was uncharacteristcially cruel. So yes, I think Lara's characterisation left something to be desired. But I felt this actually improved in AoD...her voice was more normal and less contemptuous sounding, and when Lara was angry with someone she had a good reason (especially given that she was supposed to be traumatised after the events of TR4) .
People often say the series didn't evolve, but in TR4 you can already see the move towards towards a stronger, more integrated story with more personal relevance for Lara, as well as significantly improved graphics...it was a major step up from TR3. There were definitely hints of the direction AoD was going to take, in TR4.



Ie, in TR1 she is robbed and faces a life or death struggle against her adversary, and chooses to risk death by diving off of a mountain into a river, in AOD she swan dives out of a flaming sewer. If this wasn't meant as a ludicrous caricature, then it is simply a pathetic attempt to mimic the original TR. Did someone forget to ask, why would an archaeologist, a titled aristocrat, be swimming in filthy fecal urine water from Paris toilets? Tombs are old, lonely and frightening, but urban sewer water is revolting.

I think you've actually hit on a major part of the AoD story concept. The point is that we're seeing Lara in a situation that's new to her-she's a fugitive, desperate, and she'll do whatever she has to to try and clear her name. That fact that she has to enter dingy and disgusting environments illustrates that. When you're being chased all over Paris and crossing paths with a deranged serial killer, that's not the time to stand on your dignity.



Would an archaeologist ever use explosives to blow a hole in the side of a museum?

Why not, if she was desperate and that was the only option available to her?



Would a passageway ever be located behind the Mona Lisa, one of the most priceless and guarded pieces of art in the world ? Why are rotting roman centurions from approx 400 BC, guarding a steam engine developed more than 1000 years later?

You might as well ask; why are wolves, bears and lions alive and healthy in tombs that are supposed to have been sealed for centuries? Why are dinosaurs from the late Cretaceous period lurking in tombs that were built around 65 million years later? TR1 contained as many unrealistic elements as the later games.


Which is not to say that all other games were purely rubbish, the vehicles and changing outfits were nice additions. But the soul of TR was lost at some point, the gameplay began to feel stale and cliche, and Toby is the ideal person to restore TR's unique brand of surprises, atmosphere, gameplay and character.

Well, I hope Legend does provide all of those things. It looks graphically impressive-I just hope the story is something more than the tired old "artifact of the week + competing villain". I also think that if AoD 2 had been made, and given enough development time, it could have been every bit as good if not better than Legend, and I regret that we'll never see it.

Sorry for such a long post, I just had a lot to say :D

susan
18th Oct 2005, 18:43
In actual fact, I think it was closer to the other way around...another reason AoD was released significantly ahead of schedule was partly because Eidos wanted it to coincide with the release of the movie in the hope that the two would cross-promote. This rush is the reason why AoD suffered so many quality control issues, and why significant sections of the game were half-implemented or had to be left out altogether.I think this is the crux of the AoD issue. Even from the outside it's obvious that the design team were not given enough time to make the game. Crystal have already had longer than Core did. [As a side issue, what annoys me is when people try to blame the fans saying they pushed for an early release, which is silly.] As a result, Eidos is now owned by another company... Probably quite rightly too as to knowingly release a product that is (a) not finished and (b) below customer expectations when (c) it is your flagship product is bad business practice.

I'm sure there were many other issues but this is the key one.

I have to disagree with you Raven about the quality of the storyline in AoD. Having loads of exposition throughout a game about ancient tales doesn't necessarily make a good story. And, the characters and their interactions were positively cliched throughout, especially the baddies. It was an interesting premise but not executed as well as say, TR4.

If Crystal are slagging off Core's efforts in the previous TR's then (too be polite) they're probably being over enthusiastic. A bit of humility definitely wouldn't hurt.

Mangar The Dark
18th Oct 2005, 19:30
While I agree with a LOT of what Raven said, I think sometimes we're too willing to let Core off the hook for botching AOD. Maybe it's true that Eidos forced them to release the game early, but keep in mind how many delays the game already experienced. I guess Eidos could have said, "Well, if it takes forever, that's fine," but this is a business, and there are deadlines to meet. Core missed the first, second, third, etc, deadline, and something was clearly wrong. If you hire someone to renovate a room in your house, you can't simply sit back and say, "Take as long as you want," you expect them to do the job in a timely manner and to do it well. I guess Eidos had the same expectations of Core, and since Core couldn't deliver, I think Eidos was right to hire someone else, same as anyone would if they hired a contractor who could not finish a job in their house within a reasonable period of time.

Xxx_Lara_xxX
20th Oct 2005, 02:15
"AOD was at best, a 3D Lara Croft fan fic gone terribly wrong."


Hmmm... have you actually ever read any Tomb Raider fanfiction? The majority of it is appalling, and reads like a child's picture book or some other mindless drivel.

Actually this was exactly my point... AOD was like bad fan fiction and appalling in practically every respect!!! I say "practically" because there were some things that were done well in the game, like the excessively animated bounciness and detailed jiggles of her giganto horizontal boobs -- I change my mind, it was appalling in every respect!!!


The plot of Legend sounds like a piece of bad fanfiction to me.

If you say so... :confused: Personally Legend looks like one of the best TR sequels to come out in years, you're not going to play it??


[Legend] looks graphically impressive-I just hope the story is something more than the tired old "artifact of the week + competing villain".

That's very true, when stale cliches take the place of real creativity the rest is boring and predictable. Although Romancing the Stone, the 3 Indiana Jones movies, and The Goonies all center on an "artifact + competing villain" theme - creativity and storytelling make all the difference. TR1 was at heart, a truly ridiculous game -- blood covered spikes in an ancient tomb? That would be the blood of ancient Mayans on those spikes? And a Jurassic Park T-rex? But it was lighthearted fun mixed in with bundled mummies (that don't attack you, just like a real archaelogist might find) and snakeskins, animal skins and burial pots (which don't contain ammo, since real archaeologists don't find ammo inside of ancient burial pots), rotting ancient furniture, a blend of real archaelogical scenery and fantastic elements, and a brash girl doing brave, utterly unexpected daredevil things like pitching a motorcycle into the ocean to catch a speeding yacht and then becoming a stowaway in the bunk -- a brilliant unexpected solution to her problem. Would I ever have the balls to do something as daring? Probably not.

Real problems like mid-life crisis, depression, the death of loved ones, serial killers, being poor, and defamation aren't a part of this story because Tomb Raider is an escape, everyone loses friends and is called names in real life. I think the allure of TR is the ability to forget all of that for a few hours and take on the "problems" of having a tyrannosaurus chasing you and jumping over bloody spikes and exploring Tibet... with the crucial element of some factual accuracy and architecture sets TR apart, it makes TR seem as if it is literally real somewhere, and you seriously consider archaeology as a profession... since the promise is so much more exciting than your current situation ever will be! Directing Lara seamlessly through this environment, you become her, if only you could actually step into her world.

That is until you find a bug or unrealistic thing like an obviously big hole that she seemingly can't climb through or, heaven forbid, some bizarre nonsensical limitiation like you have to push a certain arbitrary block to gain strength to open a particular door in another area, then you realize its all totally fake. And if the reminders are near constant multiple deaths, control issues, cringe-worthy scenarios, flickering dead enemies and glittering pick-ups, an accusatory/ sarcastic/ melodrama Lara, camera problems and bugs, and "adventures" which involve having to "raid" the lighting system of an empty french disco, then you start wondering why you even bother to waste time with this thing. I went as far as the aquatic research area and then I quit. Maybe Toby can bring back the old magic and maybe he can't, but I think what they have done so far looks awesome.

WraithStar
20th Oct 2005, 15:14
I played the PC version of AoD with all of the patches applied and I didn't experience very many bugs thankfully:) Having said that, I spent quite a lot of time running around trying to work around the controls and camera when they were being annoying. As a result, by the time I got from one cutscene to the next, I forgot most of what had already happened. If AoD had a good story, I missed it. By the time I got to the end, I had no idea what the hell was happening or who Lara was talking to. Apparently she met those people earlier in the game, but I can't remember the meetings :confused: Anyhow, I don't regret playing AoD but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a fantastic game that Crystal will have a hard time topping. I trust Crystal to write a very interesting and well-executed story based on some of their other games I've played, so I'm not worried about some cliche of "artifact of the week + random megolamaniac" showing up in Legend. I'm sure if you tried to summarize *any* good story in a sentence or two, it would sound cliche. It's nice that Toby Gard is on board, but I'm more excited about the prospect of Crystal writing the next TR story.

Black Raybe
26th Oct 2005, 20:01
Actually this was exactly my point... AOD was like bad fan fiction and appalling in practically every respect!!!


Bad fanfiction? I'm sorry, but did you actually follow the plot of AoD? It was bloody amazing. I was absolutely blown away by it, and a lot of other people were too. I could understand if you didn't like it, but comparing it to a piece of bad fanfiction is enough to make me fall off my chair in hysterics. I think the problem for those who didn't like the plot of AoD was that they did not understand it. I may be wrong, but I think in regards to the usual short attention span of gamers (and society) today, it is a fair assumption to make.


If you say so... :confused: Personally Legend looks like one of the best TR sequels to come out in years, you're not going to play it??


Nope. I'm not playing it or buying it. I'm not letting them get one penny of my money. And again, your opinion on Legend is your own, but I think it looks like a load of bull****. Lara is unrecognizable, extremely out of proportion and is now a bland, stereotypical character with - conveniently - no memory of anything that preceded her.

When I merely saw some press photos of AoD I was blown away. When I watched the trailer for Legend, I sat there with a blank look on my face, and my only thought was 'What the hell is all this excitement about?'

*shrugs* Go buy Legend if you want, but I'll stick to my principles and wait for the Tomb Raider franchise to crash and burn. It's a shame it has to come to this, but until Legend is crushed under its own hype the game developers will never learn:

DO NOT MESS WITH LARA!

[/end rant] :D

midroth
26th Oct 2005, 20:29
Bad fanfiction? I'm sorry, but did you actually follow the plot of AoD? It was bloody amazing. I was absolutely blown away by it...
Some people are anyhow easy to feed... <sorry>

badhairday
26th Oct 2005, 21:53
Some people are anyhow easy to feed... <sorry>
Yes some people are easy to feed! In this case I'm agreeing with Black Rayne's reference to a certain popular fanfic. Seems everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon. But that's not for me.

I thought the AOD story, despite it's incompleteness in the actual game, was the most interesting amongst TRs, original, compelling, thought-provoking and well-researched. And I'd much rather play it's sequel than the upcoming Legend.

:rolleyes:

Deckard
26th Oct 2005, 22:37
... AOD's plot *was* one of the game's strongest points, together with the really excellent graphics. And when I write "graphics" I mean the design of the environments and figures as well as the "technical" aspects related to it, i.e. use of hardware features and gl programming skills. The amount of work and creativity which went to it literally "shows" :cool: . I'll avoid to comment the remaining gaming aspects of AOD ... :o .



...
Nope. I'm not playing it or buying it. I'm not letting them get one penny of my money. And again, your opinion on Legend is your own, but I think it looks like a load of bull****. Lara is unrecognizable, extremely out of proportion and is now a bland, stereotypical character with - conveniently - no memory of anything that preceded her.
...
*shrugs* Go buy Legend if you want, but I'll stick to my principles and wait for the Tomb Raider franchise to crash and burn. It's a shame it has to come to this, but until Legend is crushed under its own hype the game developers will never learn:

DO NOT MESS WITH LARA!

[/end rant] :D

@Black Raybe: What I honestly don't get here above is whether you are serious about judging Legend from what has been written and/or shown up until now :confused: .
I don't think we know very much about Legend's plot ... yet. I agree that it is not likely that Legend's plot will compare well to AOD's plot :( . But on the other hand, AOD's almost cinematic plot proved to be very demanding - too demanding for either CORE's capabilities or the timeframe of the project :rolleyes: . If I were you, I'd reserve my judgement until the game is out and/or the demo is available ;) . Of course I am not you, and therfore I'll run to the shelves on day 1 and grab the first copy available :D .

TombRaider252
28th Oct 2005, 21:00
Yes some people are easy to feed! In this case I'm agreeing with Black Rayne's reference to a certain popular fanfic. Seems everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon. But that's not for me.

I thought the AOD story, despite it's incompleteness in the actual game, was the most interesting amongst TRs, original, compelling, thought-provoking and well-researched. And I'd much rather play it's sequel than the upcoming Legend.

:rolleyes:

I have quoted this.. because i agree fully with it.


but comparing it to a piece of bad fanfiction is enough to make me fall off my chair in hysterics.

Also quoted that because i agree. ugh.. that stuff makes me cringe... and laugh at the same time *wipes tear of laughter away* What a wierd combination huh?

Lux Knight
29th Oct 2005, 13:07
Who's been such a coward to take ... out of Black Raybe's post?! Since when aren't we allowed to be critical about other people's work?! She is not even calling her names or anything.

Trinity34
29th Oct 2005, 15:13
Sorry but this has nothing to do with this topic. I did not see what was posted but the fact that her name was brought up shows that person was just out to malign her. If you want to talk about fan fiction, create a new topic.

GoranAgar
30th Oct 2005, 08:25
Who's been such a coward ...
My name is right there.

If you really do not know how to behave, we have this thing called Terms Of Use and I suggest you print out Rule #5 and put it under your pillow.

Lux Knight
1st Nov 2005, 18:11
Well, I think this will be last post before I get banned. And the post itself might get deleted so I'll make sure to take a screenshot :)

Rule 5 of the Terms and Conditions, here it is

Rule #5: Do not attack or retaliate against any member or group of members on the forums.

Do not harass, threaten, embarrass, or do anything else to another member or guest that is unwanted. This is referred to as flaming, and will not be tolerated.

This means: don't say bad things about them, don't keep sending them unwanted messages, don't attack their race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc

Let's see, did I attack, harass or threaten Katie Flemming? No I didn't, I said something about her fics, not about her. I never met the girl, maybe she is the nicest person in the world.
I think her fanfics are poorly written, have weak plots, undeveloped characters and childish descriptions. I write fanfiction myself too, if anyone wants to bash them, go ahead. Í don't fear to get criticism, I also got praise. You can never satisfy everybody.
Well, would this be considered illegal on the Eidos forums? I've read hundreds of articles on Internet forums about how poor and weak 'The Da Vinci Code' is. Nobody ever got censored for that, and I'm sure Dan Brown doesnt give a dang about it.

If anyone finds it necesary to ban me, go ahead. Like you did with j7wild.

badhairday
1st Nov 2005, 18:49
Oh Snap! Well you clearly didn't violate the rules. You should be a lawyer Lux Knight. :thumbsup:

Mangar The Dark
1st Nov 2005, 19:38
Am I the only person who doesn't know who Katie is? Does she even use this message board? If not, it does seem a bit trivial to delete all mention of her.

midroth
1st Nov 2005, 20:33
Am I the only person who doesn't know who Katie is? Does she even use this message board? If not, it does seem a bit trivial to delete all mention of her.Katie is a nice one. Tomb Raider fan since the beginnig. You can visit her here: http://www.tombraiders.net/katie/

Sophia Leigh
2nd Nov 2005, 08:45
Rule #5: Do not attack or retaliate against any member or group of members on the forums.

Do not harass, threaten, embarrass, or do anything else to another member or guest that is unwanted. This is referred to as flaming, and will not be tolerated.

Yes, she is a member of these forums and by blatently attacking her work you are attacking her. There is nothing constructive in your comments all you have said is that her work is rubbish. You could have just made your comparisons to bad fan fiction rather than naming a particular author and then this wouldn't even be an issue now.

Why is it that when someone creates fan art everyone praises them for their efforts but when someone wants to express their admiration through pen people can't just accept it for what it is.

Personally I enjoy the pre-mentioned's work for what it is - fan art, its good for a light read. If you don't like it then don't read it, if you think you have some advice for the author then give them specifics to work on and give it to them personally only when asked for and not on a public forum.

Other than that, have a nice day :)

CatSuit&Ponytail
2nd Nov 2005, 09:42
...

This is not the place to "critique" someone's work who did not ask for a critique. The person in question wasn't even in this thread to defend that work. Nor is it even slightly what this thread was for.

Critics are over-rated. And not every opinion has the need to be shared in public. If you want to hurt someone's feelings, do it somewhere else.

GoranAgar
2nd Nov 2005, 09:47
... j7wild.
LOL, if anything gets you banned it is the mention of that name. :D

That of course raises the question: What was your name before the one you use right now?

On our topic: Of course you can have a different opinion, dislike stuff and explain to us why you do. But the way it was done where I took it out was a bit too rude for our friendly community. And if several people find something rude and some people don`t, I'll get rid of it. :)

Now any further discussion we can have in private. I don't want to disturb this thread anymore.

kiss-bite
17th Nov 2005, 16:21
Wow! This thread has gone slightly away from the original topic!! I havn't the slightest idea of what you are all talking about!

TRfan
18th Nov 2005, 00:15
I dont know what ya'll are talking about so Imma get back on topic.

I thought Toby spoke bad about the whole series and said that they ruined it and that he'd never be apart of the TR series because Lara isnt what she used to be?... or something along those lines.

anyways... I forgot what I wanted to say. But yea... I hate the fact that they sit up and bad mouth AOD the way they do. AOD was not that bad of a game. It was a bit of a let down mainly because we expected more and got less than. I loved playing that game. The only thing wrong was that it really didnt have a storyline or any direction. I felt like I was just hoppin and skipping around different levels. But the game play was LOVELY! The enviorment and cutscenes and everything were HOT! Tomb Raider series lost it's direction a while ago, way before AOD. Try... TR3 or 4. You know. When you basically had Lara jumping around from country to country just for the sake of it. I bought every TR game up to TR 4 and gave up. I rented the rest. Chronicles was LAME. Last Revolution...? you killed her off. HOW IN THE HELL WERE YOU SUPPOSED TO HAVE A COMEBACK TR GAME WHEN U KINDA KILL OFF THE MAIN CHARACTER? It didnt make sense.

So like I said, I wished they stop bad mouthing AOD. Try blaming themselves for allowing those TRs to take place. I'd hope Eidos check up on these things before they release them.

Mangar The Dark
18th Nov 2005, 03:36
Last Revolution...? you killed her off. HOW IN THE HELL WERE YOU SUPPOSED TO HAVE A COMEBACK TR GAME WHEN U KINDA KILL OFF THE MAIN CHARACTER? It didnt make sense.


I said it before, and I still think "Last Revelation" would have been an ideal place to end the series for several reasons.

First, the title kind of worked for a finale. Yeah, that's a lame reason, but from a marketing perspective, it was cool.

Second, the series redeemed itself after the disappointing TR2 and TR3. Finally, they got back on track with a game that was focused (rather than hopping around from place to place like in TR2 and 3, as you said, TRFan), and it had an emphasis on exploration and puzzles rather than on combat. It felt like TR1 again, but bigger and better. Makes sense to end on a high note, particularly when it brings the series full circle. TR5 and 6 kind of cheapened things again.

And, from a story telling standpoint, it was an ideal place to end. Lara has always been somewhat selfish. She went around the world killing people to get whatever she wanted. She was on another selfish pursuit at the start of TR4, but this time, it had dire consequences. So, she finally turns good and decides to redeem herself by setting things right again. Eventually, she makes the ultimate sacrifice, herself, to save the world. I'll probably be bashed for saying this, but it honestly made me think of Darth Vader-- she had gone to the darkside in previous games for her own selfish needs, but when things reached a boiling point, she finally saw the light and did the right thing, even though it killed her. I really thought that was the end of the series, and I remember thinking, "Wow, that was a cool way to end it!" It was actually an emotionally powerful and very appropriate ending for her character. As much as I hated to see the series end, I did like the ending, and I felt satisfied with it. Plus, she died in a tomb... what better place for her to die?

Then I couldn't help rolling my eyes when I heard about the premise for TR5. Yeah, I was happy to get another TR game, but it just seemed so cheap. It was as if Eidos said, "Gee... the savings account is looking a little low. Um, maybe we ought to revive Lara?" The game itself wasn't so bad, but it was no where near as good as TR4 or the original. It felt like an expansion pack more than anything else.

TRfan
18th Nov 2005, 06:04
You did just made me realize that after TR1, Lara became jsut as evil and negative as her enemies. TR1 was more about Natla's team going for the same thing but at the same time PREVENTING Lara at any means to reach it before they did. and even at the end, NatLa got to the artifact first. TR2 and ...I dont even remember TR3 lol I must have skipped that game. but the rest was out of greed. and wow... AOD lol She had an attitude on her lol Its just funny because I remember I got an attitude with that fat guy and he shot me dead lol Kinda felt she deserved that.

I liked the little stuff in AOD like using the action button to climb out of windows. Though it took a while to get it to work, I still thing little stuff like that adds to the game.

akamatt
19th Nov 2005, 00:09
Whatever happens here is it, if Legend fails, Tomb Raider is going down the drain. I've always been a true TR fan, ever since the beginning, yet the games have been getting from bad to worse. TR1 will always be my favorite game, because when I started TR1, everything was new, but since then, all the games have been basically the same. I mean I loved TR2,3,4, ect.. But when AOD came out, there was too much change! Hopefully Legend will be a success and there will be alot of more hope for TR in the future. Natla was the best villan ever, and because of that, TR1 will always be my favorite, but I'll have to wait for Legend to come out, to make that desicion.