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MissLara2U
30th Jun 2005, 12:16
This is courtesy of Colin from www.tombraiderforums.com

PAGE 1 (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image17za.jpg)

PAGE 2 (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image23ek.jpg)

M.

www.tombraiderchronicles.com
www.tombraiderforums.com

BlueSkiesXXV
30th Jun 2005, 13:17
Thanks for the info :)

That is wonderful praise for 'Legend'.
Things are looking good so far...fingers crossed for a GREAT new Tomb Raider game.

imported_Mark_
30th Jun 2005, 16:17
Interesting stuff. Thanks.

Mangar The Dark
30th Jun 2005, 16:56
I never would have expected a TR game (after the original) to take a Best In Show award! This definitely sounds promising. Maybe all the criticism leveled at AOD was actually a good thing, as it forced Crystal Dynamics to really push the envelope.

midroth
30th Jun 2005, 18:25
"...automatically comes on..."
I have enough know-how when/where make torches on...don't need an automatic.

"...she knows what you want...".
I wanna play the game! Don't do it for me, please.

Thanks.

Mangar The Dark
30th Jun 2005, 18:52
"...automatically comes on..."
I have enough know-how when/where make torches on...don't need an automatic.

"...she knows what you want...".
I wanna play the game! Don't do it for me, please.

Thanks.

I was actually glad to see both of those things. Yes, I'm sure you COULD figure out when to light a flare on your own, but since you really have no choice but to light a flare in a pitch dark area (it's either that, or just bump into things), it might as well be automatic. It just helps streamline things.

As for her being able to complete jumps on her own, I think that will be great (assuming it's done right.) One thing I never found particularly fun was trying to line Lara up perfectly for a difficult jump, then timing something slightly wrong, and she dies. If she can intelligently complete jumps successfully on her own it will cut down on the tedium and allow us to enjoy the fun parts of the game. (I can't begin to tell you how many hours I spent squinting at my monitor thinking, "okay, if I place her left foot on that pixel and then turn herslightly to right, I should be able to make this jump. Oops... that didn't work. Okay, let's try it with her left foot on that other pixel...." For me, that detracts from the sensation of exploring/adventuring.) Of course, I don't want the game to take complete control, but if it helps out and makes everything less tedious, it can only be a good thing.

midroth
30th Jun 2005, 19:05
Mangar: It's ok, if you want help to get one/some. But if you have to accept help, also you don't want help? I hope the "help" is to switch off. Freedom of playing. With or without ***. You know?

Mangar The Dark
30th Jun 2005, 19:54
Yeah, that would be ok, if they make the help optional. It could be in the form of a difficulty level setting. Then, for people like me who basically suck at games, we could still enjoy it. And for the rest you, you could play it the old fashioned way.

midroth
30th Jun 2005, 20:17
Mangar, "we" have it.

susan
30th Jun 2005, 21:13
...no choice but to light a flare in a pitch dark area (it's either that, or just bump into things), it might as well be automatic. It just helps streamline things.If you follow this logic don't you end up with a CGI film to pop in your PS2/PC/Xbox?

There are enemies that you have no choice but to kill (it's either that or they'll keep attacking you) so why not get the game to shoot them for you? It might as well be automatic.

You have no choice but to walk down that path because that's the way to go (it's either that or you'll just end up standing there), it might as well be automatic.

Then we can have a perfectly streamlined game...with nothing to do.


...If she can intelligently complete jumps successfully on her own it will cut down on the tedium... ...makes everything less tediousThe thing is I think that aiming and shooting in a first person perspective is a very tedious thing to do in a game. If it was in TR I wouldn't like it, which is fair enough because that's not what I've come to expect from a TR game. However, if I was to play Half Life and ask that they took out these tedious bits that'd be a bit daft, wouldn't it???

That's not to say TR is untouchable and can't be improved upon, just that - to change it this way (automatic actions), imo, makes it into another kind of game. A much simplier and less immersive one, which isn't what I think of as TR.

CatSuit&Ponytail
1st Jul 2005, 09:10
*Tries very hard to not get very angry*

I'm sure it will all be ok, even though PART of the fun I had playing Tomb Raider was NOT using flares and medpacs when the going was rough. :rolleyes:

Mangar The Dark
1st Jul 2005, 13:53
If you follow this logic don't you end up with a CGI film to pop in your PS2/PC/Xbox?

There are enemies that you have no choice but to kill (it's either that or they'll keep attacking you) so why not get the game to shoot them for you? It might as well be automatic.

Fighting enemies requires some skill and can be a fun part of gameplay. Lighting a flare is simply a matter of pressing a button, and not particularly fun. It might just as well be streamlined. And how you fight the enemy can vary. Different players will use different tactics. Lighting a flare does not vary. Every player who lights a flare will do it in exactly the same way.



You have no choice but to walk down that path because that's the way to go (it's either that or you'll just end up standing there), it might as well be automatic.


As you're walking down that corridor, you could be looking around, wondering if there's a hidden ledge somewhere (even there isn't, you don't necessarily know that in advance, so you're mind is still actively processing things.) Lighting a flare doesn't involve any thought-- it's dark, can't see, light flare. Me Tarzan, you Jane.



The thing is I think that aiming and shooting in a first person perspective is a very tedious thing to do in a game.


Me too.



If it was in TR I wouldn't like it, which is fair enough because that's not what I've come to expect from a TR game. However, if I was to play Half Life and ask that they took out these tedious bits that'd be a bit daft, wouldn't it???


Yes, it would. But I don't think lighting a flare was the crux of the TR experience in the same way that shooting enemies is the crux of of the Half-Life experience. I mean, a few TR games didn't even HAVE flares, and it didn't hurt them. Maybe it's just me, but I never got any sort of visceral thrill from those flares, so I honestly won't miss lighting them. As for being helped with jumps, I still think that's a good thing. For me, the fun of TR comes from exploring and feeling like I'm in the middle of an exciting adventure, not from lining up pixels. Prince Of Persia helped with jumps, but it still maintained a sense of excitement, and you still needed some skill to complete levels, but it didn't get needlessly frustrating (well, the fights did, but that's another story...). If Legend's system is similar to POP's, it should work well. Having said that, I did not like how POP used the same button for jump and roll. I hope TR lets us at least make that decision.



That's not to say TR is untouchable and can't be improved upon, just that - to change it this way (automatic actions), imo, makes it into another kind of game. A much simplier and less immersive one, which isn't what I think of as TR.

I really don't think it's going to change things so drastically. Look at how graphic adventures have changed over the years. Remember the original Maniac Mansion? If you moved your arrow around the screen, you weren't told what anything was, and clickable areas weren't highlighted in any way. So, you had to click on "WHAT IS?" and then move your arrow around. Then, when you saw, "What is lightswitch" appear on screen, you had to go back down to the menu, and choose USE. Then move the arrow back to where the lightswitch was, and then click "USE LIGHTSWITCH." It was tedious. Now, with newer games like "Syberia" and "The Longest Journey," all of this has been streamlined, but at their core, they're still graphic adventures and very much like Maniac Mansion. In fact, many would argue the new streamlined approach improves the experience. They evolved.
Going even further back, look at the early King's Quest games. They didn't even let you click on action words. You had to type, "USE LIGHTSWITCH."

I'm optimistic that if Legend helps with the tedious aspects of gameplay, the designers will be forced to present more intelligent challenges to the player. For instance, I spent way too long on TR: Chronicles because I could not properly line up a series of jumps during the Young Lara scenario. To me, that's a cheap way of extending gameplay time.

LaraAngelOfDarkness
1st Jul 2005, 14:00
Um guys, they aren't talking about FLARES , they are talking about the FLASHLIGHT mounted on Lara's shoulder. Its comes on automatically when she walks into a dark area. It doesn't light up the whole room, but it does give some light. The player still has control over wether Lara will use a flare or not, as the action for pulling out a flare is mapped to the Directional pad of controller.

Didn't you guys watch that 13 minute trailer from Gamespot, lol? At around 10:00 minutes into the video you can clearly see her turn the light on. Then the player pulled out a flare and threw it to light the room. The player then pulled out another flare, threw it, and then used the magnetic hook to swing across the gap.

Mangar The Dark
1st Jul 2005, 14:36
Um guys, they aren't talking about FLARES , they are talking about the FLASHLIGHT mounted on Lara's shoulder. Its comes on automatically when she walks into a dark area. It doesn't light up the whole room, but it does give some light. The player still has control over wether Lara will use a flare or not, as the action for pulling out a flare is mapped to the Directional pad of controller.

Didn't you guys watch that 13 minute trailer from Gamespot, lol? At around 10:00 minutes into the video you can clearly see her turn the light on. Then the player pulled out a flare and threw it to light the room. The player then pulled out another flare, threw it, and then used the magnetic hook to swing across the gap.

Welllll.... alrighty then.

Okay, I guess everyone can be satisfied with that compromise.
(but my point still stands! Games can evolve, become streamlined, and STILL be good!!! :D)

midroth
1st Jul 2005, 14:38
The player or the automatic (engine)? Did you see the player using a light-on function? Guess, no. But we read -not the first time- about "automatic".Let's hope you are right. Or there is an on/off option.

LaraAngelOfDarkness
1st Jul 2005, 15:33
The player or the automatic (engine)? Did you see the player using a light-on function? Guess, no. But we read -not the first time- about "automatic".Let's hope you are right. Or there is an on/off option.


Like the article says and in the movie, when you go into a pitch black area or room, the light comes on automatically(otherwise you'd probably fall to your death from not being able to see where to go, lol). The person playing never pressed a button when the light came on or the bottom menu would have showed it. I believe pressing up on the d-pad will be to select use for the grapling hook, pressing left on the d-pad will be to use flares, pressing right on the d-pad will be to use health, and pressing down on the d-pad will use grenades(these are based on the PS2 controls I believe). Anyways, when Lara used the flares the menu came up and you saw it being selected by the player, unlike the light which just came on when it got dark. I hope that helped.

Mangar The Dark
1st Jul 2005, 15:41
Moving on from the question of flares, I was interested to see that there will be no loading during the game since the scenary loads in as you explore. This sounds really cool in theory. My concern is that if the game is loading while you're playing, couldn't that concerivably cause stuttering and frame rate problems?

Also, while I've never been a huge fan of loading screens, I kind of wonder if this new system may take away some sense of satisfaction. In previous TR games, I would always get a thrill when I reached the end of a level. If this game isn't as divided into levels, that sense of satisfaction could be missing. Just a thought. Presumably there will still be a sense of satisfaction when you complete a tough puzzle or beat a tough enemy (or light a flare!-- sorry, couldn't resist.)

midroth
1st Jul 2005, 16:09
I believe ... I believe... Interesting. To know would be better. Sorry. I'm still sceptical.

Btw: You fall to dead if you step in the darkness? If you make/plan your steps careful ... there is a moment to switch the light on, if you have one. If not, search for the solution. That's Tomb Raider. Not "automatically think & do for you". But optional is ok.

LaraAngelOfDarkness
1st Jul 2005, 17:28
Interesting. To know would be better. Sorry. I'm still sceptical.

Btw: You fall to dead if you step in the darkness? If you make/plan your steps careful ... there is a moment to switch the light on, if you have one. If not, search for the solution. That's Tomb Raider. Not "automatically think & do for you". But optional is ok.


What I meant by that "I believe", is I don't know which sytem the game was being showed on in the gamespot video. If it was on Playstation 2 and X-box(which is most likely PS2), then the d-pad would be the way the items are mapped out in the menu, for quick and easy selection. Just like many other games, Max Payne for example(and this is just an example, not a comparison to actual TR:L gameplay).


And by falling to your death in darkness was again based on that video, if there was no light Lara would fall to her death from two pits that are located in that hallway. So what if Lara turns on a little flashlight on her own? It BARELY provides any light to see that far infront of you and as it is connected to her body, it shakes alot and you can't really see when she runs(and don't say, "Well then why does she need it?"). The light also doesn't shine as bright as a flare, think of the flashlight as an alternative to flares if you run out.

Finally about the game playing itself, I still think you are worrying WAY too much about it(I know I've said this so many times to you, but I still think you are). Obviously, You and Toby Gard have different opinions on what makes Tomb Raider.....well Tomb Raider. Do you feel that you're going to have no control in the new game because some things(small things really, IMO) are done for you? Do you hate she has a flashlight, or the fact that Lara turns it on for you(maybe Lara is just afraid of the dark thanks to Angel of Darkness :D )?

PS: Have you even watched that video? Its not as bad as your thinking.

midroth
1st Jul 2005, 17:38
I've seen this video.
About the system... It was no PS*, nor a XBox. Also it was on/for a XBox Demo. It was on an Apple PC! See here. (http://www.unf-unf.de/show842.html)

LaraAngelOfDarkness
1st Jul 2005, 18:08
I've seen this video.
About the system... It was no PS*, nor a XBox. Also it was on/for a XBox Demo. It was on an Apple PC! See here. (http://www.unf-unf.de/show842.html)

Well, I clicked your link and saw nothing about TR:L being on the Apple PC(unless this is supposed to be a joke). Anyways, even if the video was from X-box, the controls being mapped to the d-pad is correct. The only version that will be different will be the PC version.

midroth
1st Jul 2005, 18:54
Right, the control should for XBox and PS the same.
And no, this is not a joke.

LaraAngelOfDarkness
1st Jul 2005, 19:22
Right, the control should for XBox and PS the same.
And no, this is not a joke.

Ok, its just I didn't see anyhting about TR on your link.

Mangar The Dark
1st Jul 2005, 19:55
Ok, its just I didn't see anyhting about TR on your link.

I think he must have put a wrong link... I don't see anything about TR there either.

Anyway, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks people might be getting upset over nothing. I'm really not trying to be confrontational about this, but it just seems odd that we see an article talking about how great the game is looking, and some people just focus on how bad it will be if Lara automatically uses a flashlight, or helps you complete a jump. Come on! Those two things will NOT ruin the game in any way. So try to be happy about the positive preview.

Sophia Leigh
2nd Jul 2005, 13:23
I think he must have put a wrong link... I don't see anything about TR there either.

Anyway, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks people might be getting upset over nothing. I'm really not trying to be confrontational about this, but it just seems odd that we see an article talking about how great the game is looking, and some people just focus on how bad it will be if Lara automatically uses a flashlight, or helps you complete a jump. Come on! Those two things will NOT ruin the game in any way. So try to be happy about the positive preview.

Absolutely, lets get the facts straight and maybe even play the game so that real opinions can be made before criticising. :cool:

susan
3rd Jul 2005, 02:55
Mangar, I think you're exaggerating what's been said again. Nobody's saying this will RUIN the game, only make it different. That's hardly criticising the game, merely speculating based on people's preferences.

:confused: ...usually known as a Discussion?

I guess you either can see what I mean or you can't.

Also, I guess you're either the type of person who can accept other people have different views from yourself or you're not.

Mangar The Dark
3rd Jul 2005, 14:33
Mangar, I think you're exaggerating what's been said again. Nobody's saying this will RUIN the game, only make it different.

And they're clearly not happy about it. So it's not just going to make it "different," to them, it's going to make it worse. The tone of your post on the previous page did not sound like you were just discussing how it would be "different," it sounded like you were discussing how it would be worse. Sorry if I misread you.



That's hardly criticising the game, merely speculating based on people's preferences.


But it IS criticism since some people are saying that these changes are going to make the game not as good... I mean, isn't that pretty much the definition of criticism-- saying, "Well, they're making these changes, and these changes are going to detract from the fun of the game"? Granted, people have every right to criticize it if they honestly feel that these changes will lessen the game.



:confused: ...usually known as a Discussion?

Yep, that's what it's known as, which is why I thought it was okay to express my opinion on it, just as others expressed theirs. Just as you pointed out your reasons for thinking the player should have control over flares and whatnot, I pointed out my reasons as to why it doesn't seem significant-- like you said, it's a discussion... it goes back and forth.



Also, I guess you're either the type of person who can accept other people have different views from yourself or you're not.

Um, is that your indirect way of implying that I can't accept other people's views? Well, if that's the case, I guess I'm not alone... there seem to be a few people (not going to name names....) who don't always agree with my views on things. But as you said earlier it is a DISCUSSION, so I don't mind, and I don't expect everyone to accept all of my ideas. We're just tossing ideas back and forth. It's not a question of one person being right or another being wrong. You stated why you felt certain gameplay elements mattered, I stated why I didn't feel they mattered. I mean, I honestly don't see how that makes ME the person who can't accept other people's views anymore than it make you that way. And I don't think you are a person who can't accept others views, so I don't think it's fair for you to label me that way either.

Anyway, we're just discussing a game! It's really not worth either one of us getting upset over. So let's agree to disagree on some things, and continue having a discussion about a game we obviously both enjoy. If anything I wrote before upset you, I apologize... nothing was meant to be an attack (and I'll assume nothing you wrote to me was meant as an attack), it was just a response to things you had written, which is the very nature of a discussion.

Truce?

susan
3rd Jul 2005, 16:49
Mangar

Trust me I'm not upset about anything, I love debate and exchange of ideas. I thought you did too otherwise I'd never have started an exchange with you in the first place. (edit: I still think you love debate... just in case that reads the wrong way).

I can reply to all of your points (yep, I don't agree), but lets just leave it.

Peace.

sister
6th Jul 2005, 16:49
I think we all desperately need some news about game so we can have concrete things to DISCUSS :p

LuxAngel
6th Jul 2005, 21:17
I think we all desperately need some news about game so we can have concrete things to DISCUSS :p

Amen, sister! http://larashots.com/images/other/larasmileylaughing.gif

I couldn't help it.

Runtime
6th Jul 2005, 23:51
I think we all desperately need some news about game so we can have concrete things to DISCUSS :p
Well we could start here (http://www.pixelfight.com/pf/archives/2005/05/concrete_things.php) :p