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Sophia Leigh
4th Jun 2005, 13:08
An interesting question has been raised over at Katie's forums and I am just wondering if anyone here has the correct answer.

In which game do you kill Larson & Pierre? Is it TR1 or TR5? I guess the question is also which scenario happened first - TR1 or TR5, since TR5 is based on Lara's friends reflectly back on her finer moments?

Dino
4th Jun 2005, 13:53
Larson and Pierre are killed in both TR1 and TR5. TR5 occurs first.

Johnny
4th Jun 2005, 17:48
Hmmm... That is interesting. Maybe Pierre and Larson didn't actually die in TR5 (hence why they appear in TR1). :confused:

MissLara2U
4th Jun 2005, 19:22
Isn't Chronicles a flashback?

susan
4th Jun 2005, 21:29
I always thought Lara meets Larson for the very first time at the beginning of TR1. You know the bit where he asks how he can get her attention and she's says he's doing a pretty good job of it ;). She doesn't say - omg, not you again! Whereas in TR5, she speaks as if she already knows both him and Pierre.

Also, I'm convinced she killed them both in TR1, so the timeline doesn't make sense to me. :D

Dino
4th Jun 2005, 23:27
... the timeline doesn't make sense ... Agreed. The timeline doesn't make sense.

Sophia Leigh
5th Jun 2005, 08:16
I always thought Lara meets Larson for the very first time at the beginning of TR1. You know the bit where he asks how he can get her attention and she's says he's doing a pretty good job of it ;). She doesn't say - omg, not you again! Whereas in TR5, she speaks as if she already knows both him and Pierre.

Also, I'm convinced she killed them both in TR1, so the timeline doesn't make sense to me. :D

That's exactly it! Whoever Core Design had writing the story for TR5 didn't do their research too well :rolleyes:

Nerevar
5th Jun 2005, 09:06
The putative incongruity is justifiable, however fanciful the rationale. The different stories contained in Tomb Raider Chronicles were, as we know, narrated by Winston, Jean-Yves and Father Patrick, thence our knowledge of the actual events is based on mere hearsay. Could very well be the faithful butler mixed up an event or character or two.

Sophia Leigh
6th Jun 2005, 05:05
The putative incongruity is justifiable, however fanciful the rationale. The different stories contained in Tomb Raider Chronicles were, as we know, narrated by Winston, Jean-Yves and Father Patrick, thence our knowledge of the actual events is based on mere hearsay. Could very well be the faithful butler mixed up an event or character or two.

Thats an interesting point of view :)

Klerik of Kaos
21st Jun 2005, 21:10
Also, I'm convinced she killed them both in TR1, so the timeline doesn't make sense to me. :D
I agree. But then again, not all people die when their legs break so maybe Pierre got out alive. And maybe Larson survived even though he was bitten a whole lot, flung halfway across that big section, and on fire. Maybe he ran into that pool thing and escaped when we weren't looking. Or maybe he ran when we had to go into that room after defeating those dragons... You never know!

Dino
22nd Jun 2005, 05:40
Core Design used a Savegame to reload Larson and Pierre for their appearance in whichever game came second.

We do it all the time when Lara dies.

Godfather
10th Jul 2005, 14:38
The different stories contained in Tomb Raider Chronicles were, as we know, narrated by Winston, Jean-Yves and Father Patrick, thence our knowledge of the actual events is based on mere hearsay. Could very well be the faithful butler mixed up an event or character or two.

Interesting note, but too far-fetched for my taste. :confused:

Although it doesn't seem like it makes much sense, it's quite obvious that the Pierre-and-Larson-events of Tomb Raider 5 happen AFTER the events of Tomb Raider 1. Lara doesn't know Larson yet when they first meet and they clearly share a history when meeting (again) in Chronicles. The same goes for Pierre; by the way. :)

Even though both Larson and Pierre get shot multiple times, I'd like to think that they both got out and were saved by the other goons of Natla. Let's not forget that they were both injured at an exit, right? After Lara shoots Pierre she finds a way out of the tombs and rides on her bike towards the Egyptian levels in Tomb Raider 1 and as for Larson? He gets shot at the exit of the cave where Natla and the rest of the group are awaiting Lara Croft (or Larson with the artifact Lara still has). I suppose that Pierre was saved during Lara's time in those Egyptian tempels and piramides and Larson was only shot five feet away or so from the Natla and the others, so they probably dragged him out half-dead. :cool:

As for Tomb Raider 5 ... Pierre fell waaaaaay down in those caves and you clearly hear something breaking and I think that's his neck. There's no way anyone could've survived that fall!! :eek:
Larson was taken by those monsters, almost bitten in half and thrown away like a piece of plastic. He was still alive but eventually died of his most-serious wounds a few minutes later. :(

If they should somehow be re-introduced in the new Tomb Raider game(s) then we're just gonna have to come up with another story as to how they managed to still be alive this time, right? :p

But in the mean time .... that's how it is .....

Bye for now

Sophia Leigh
7th Nov 2005, 05:34
I got the hard cover book the Official Tomb Raider Files today, so for those who aren't already aware, I thought I'd share the "correct timeline" with you:

Tomb Raider 5 Chronicles: The Black Isle
Tomb Raider 4 The Last Revelation: Cambodia
Tomb Raider Chronicles: Rome
Tomb Raider (& Unfinished Business)
Tomb Raider 5 Chronicles: Russian Base
Tomb Raider 2 Dagger of Xian (& Golden Mask)
Tomb Raider 3 Adventures of Lara Croft (& Lost Artifact)
Tomb Raider 5 Chronicles: VCI Levels
Tomb Raider 4 The Last Revelation (the rest of the game)

....and then of course AOD which isn't listed in the timeline because the book was published 2 years before the game was released although they do show a picture of AOD Lara. ;)

Nerevar
7th Nov 2005, 10:06
I compared your list from the Official Tomb Raider Files with the 2001 French and U.K. Tomb Raider Chronicles-websites Mum, and interestingly there are some variations (which, however, do not affect the dispute at hand, but is interesting nonetheless):

Tomb Raider 4 The Last Revelation: Cambodia
Tomb Raider 5 Chronicles: The Black Isle
Tomb Raider Chronicles: Rome
Tomb Raider (& Unfinished Business)
Tomb Raider 2 Dagger of Xian (& Golden Mask)
Tomb Raider 5 Chronicles: VCI Levels
Tomb Raider 3 Adventures of Lara Croft (& Lost Artifact)
Tomb Raider 5 Chronicles: Russian Base
Tomb Raider 4 The Last Revelation (the rest of the game)

Sophia Leigh
7th Nov 2005, 11:00
Wow, that is interesting, I wonder what Eidos has to say about that :D Has anyone else seen something published elsewhere that contradicts Nerevar's or my posts, it'd be interesting to know :D

At least we can put the Pierre & Larson debate to rest ;)

GoranAgar
7th Nov 2005, 11:07
Behind the scenes they would probably say: "Well, I guess it has been written by different guys." ;)

Anyway, Nerevar, your explaination makes perfect sense to me. :)

Raven
11th Nov 2005, 01:28
Given that we don't actually see Pierre or Larson die in Chronicles, I'd say it's clear that that took place first. Yes, Larson got munched on, and Pierre had a nasty fall, but people have survived worse. Pierre definitely dies in TR1.

Interestingly, though, you don't actually have to kill at all Larson in TR1-in the level where he attacks you as you drop down into the room, it is possible to simply run past him and grab the Scion piece to end the level. Maybe Larson isn't dead at all-I was quite fond of the big lug and like to imagine that he's now contentedly serving burgers at a cowboy-themed truck stop somewhere along the Mexican border ;)

The fact that Lara shows no sign of recognising the guys in TR1 is simply due to typical dodgy prequel continuity. When you decide to bring back established characters in a prequel story, you can expect discrepancies like that to crop up. See Star Wars :) George Lucas couldn't resist inserting C-3P0 and R2 into Episodes I-III, although it now causes some frowning and head scratching when we watch Episode IV and Obi-Wan shows no sign of recognising either of them. Similar things happened in the Babylon 5 TV movies.

Incidentally, I believe Larson and Pierre to be one of the great comedy double acts of the 20th century, and think they should have their own TV show :D

CatSuit&Ponytail
11th Nov 2005, 09:40
*spits tea on keyboard* Gee, thanks Raven, I'll be needing yet another new keyboard! :mad: http://www.catsuitandponytail.com/files/lol.gif

Mangar The Dark
11th Nov 2005, 21:15
The putative incongruity is justifiable, however fanciful the rationale. The different stories contained in Tomb Raider Chronicles were, as we know, narrated by Winston, Jean-Yves and Father Patrick, thence our knowledge of the actual events is based on mere hearsay. Could very well be the faithful butler mixed up an event or character or two.

This is the only explanation that makes any sense.
True, we could say that we never actually saw Larson or Pierre die in Chronicles, but the designers seemed to go out of their way to create elaborate death sequences, nonetheless. Actually, when I played Chronicles, I assumed it took place after TR1 because the death scenes were so much cooler-- it felt like the designers were saying, "Okay, we know these guys had pretty feeble deaths in TR1 and they deserved something more dramatic, so check this out!!" Honestly, until reading some of these posts, I really couldn't remember how Larson and Pierre "died" in TR1, but their "deaths" in TR5 were definitely memorable.

Either way, I think it's just a case of bad story telling. I'm not sure who's fault it is-- either Winston's or the game designer's. But I like Nerevar's explanation, so I'll say Winston just messed it up.

Now, the other big mystery of Chronicles is why Lara felt she was justified in breaking into Von Croy's offices, killing his security guards and stealing the Iris. After playing through that sequence, I had a whole new understanding of why Von Croy disliked Lara so much in TR4. (think about it-- the poor guy practically loses his leg trying to get that thing, and then she comes back and steals from him while he's in a wheelchair, just so she can have another trophy in a hidden room in her mansion.)

SethKoopa
13th Nov 2005, 16:02
In defence of Lara on that point, if you are good enough in the Last revelation, the iris 'is' rightfully hers, though I don't think for a second that that justifies what she did in order to get it back.

TR1 definitely occurs first in my head, because in Chronicles, Lara already recognises Larson and Pierre. Chronicles was just, forgive me, a poor game both in plot and reason. She definitely killed both of them in TR1, as far as I can see.

Mangar The Dark
14th Nov 2005, 17:05
All they needed to do in Chronicles was make up some hackneyed story about Von Croy using the Iris for some evil purpose (it kind of looked like that's what was happening, anyway, but it was never explained.) Then Lara's actions would have seemed more justified.

As for Larson & Pierre-- the bottom line is that they should not have been in Chronicles. Lara clearly doesn't know them at the start of TR1 or Chronicles, and she clearly kills them in both games. It's as if the people who made Chronicles didn't bother to play TR1, but rather just looked at a few levels and then concocted their own plot.

Raven
15th Nov 2005, 04:39
Technically, you're right Mangar, but I for one am glad they were back. They were just so funny together :D

Btw, sorry about the keyboard Cat ;)

LilLaracroft
4th Dec 2005, 17:16
You first meet One of them at the end of the lost vally on tr1 after u have dived now the warerfall at the end of the level
i do belive then its the tomb of queobec or sumthing and then u meet pirre in st fances folly

LCTR:AoD
29th Dec 2005, 13:13
TR1 definitely occurs first in my head, because in Chronicles, Lara already recognises Larson and Pierre. Chronicles was just, forgive me, a poor game both in plot and reason. She definitely killed both of them in TR1, as far as I can see.[/QUOTE]

I disagree even though she kills them in tr1 don't Pierre fall from a really tall ledge i think pierre dies in tr5 and larson dies in tr1 even though they come back but whats official is offical can't argue