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storm shadow
30th May 2005, 15:11
Hi,

I saw the so called "Mind_Blowing_e3_Footage.mpg" movie.
I have to say that the "auto adjust feature" with jumps salto's graps etc. looks buggy to me! Don't we need skill anymore to do the jumps graps etc.?
I hope they can fix it... Maybe they can put an option in the game to leave it out or in if people prefer it... I don't like that buggy thing at all!
What do you people think?

dhama
30th May 2005, 16:41
Yeah, I think most people noticed that, I certainly did, and i'm surprised that it was released with such an obvious flaw, just waiting to be picked upon.

Difficult to say if it will be like that in the final game, but i'm sure they're going to be more careful this time not to leave such detail unchecked...... aren't they? :eek:

susan
30th May 2005, 17:37
Sorry I don't understand what you mean, what is ""auto adjust feature" with jumps salto's graps etc"?? :confused:

storm shadow
30th May 2005, 18:01
Sorry I don't understand what you mean, what is ""auto adjust feature" with jumps salto's graps etc"?? :confused:
http://files.filefront.com/3854572
Take a look at this movie... for example, you will notice the buggy graps & salto's.

20193
30th May 2005, 19:39
Guy's its still in development!!! Give it time :P

LaraAngelOfDarkness
30th May 2005, 19:44
http://files.filefront.com/3854572
Take a look at this movie... for example, you will notice the buggy graps & salto's.


If its that one video I think it is you obviously didn't see the new version of the game.

LaraAngelOfDarkness
30th May 2005, 20:01
Just as I thought, it was the crappy three minute video from Gamespot. The thirteen minute video from Gamespot(where Riley Cooper is explaining the game) would probably be a better representation of the game where its at now. Yes, this video shows alot of bugs. The other video of the exact same level shows the same things only better animated.

susan
30th May 2005, 23:43
I have to say that the "auto adjust feature" with jumps salto's graps etc. looks buggy to me! Don't we need skill anymore to do the jumps graps etc.?
I've have a look and I think I know what you mean. Are you talking about how if she's a mile wide of reaching a ledge she somehow manages to grab onto it anyway?

It looks like her swinging/jumping movements are similar to those in Prince of Persia. I've always prefered the precision of TR's movements over games like PoP, they feel more real to me, but we'll see. Maybe with Legend it'll all work out beautifully.

storm shadow
31st May 2005, 05:45
I've have a look and I think I know what you mean. Are you talking about how if she's a mile wide of reaching a ledge she somehow manages to grab onto it anyway?

It looks like her swinging/jumping movements are similar to those in Prince of Persia. I've always prefered the precision of TR's movements over games like PoP, they feel more real to me, but we'll see. Maybe with Legend it'll all work out beautifully.

You are precise

storm shadow
31st May 2005, 05:47
Just as I thought, it was the crappy three minute video from Gamespot. The thirteen minute video from Gamespot(where Riley Cooper is explaining the game) would probably be a better representation of the game where its at now. Yes, this video shows alot of bugs. The other video of the exact same level shows the same things only better animated.
Can you tell where I can take a look at that 13 minute one?

LaraAngelOfDarkness
31st May 2005, 05:54
Can you tell where I can take a look at that 13 minute one?


Sure. :)

If you want to stream it go here:

http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/action/tombraidervii/media.html

It is the video entitled E3 2005 GameSpot Live Tomb Raider Stage Demo

If you want to download it go here:

http://www.tombraiderchronicles.com/tr7/footage.html

Its the video that says E3 LEGEND PREVIEW - GAMESPOT

Hope that helped.

There is one little glitch in that video though. Lara jumps for a pole and misses then she falls into a wall. But I'm sure that will be fixed.

Mangar The Dark
31st May 2005, 15:35
It looks like her swinging/jumping movements are similar to those in Prince of Persia. I've always prefered the precision of TR's movements over games like PoP, they feel more real to me, but we'll see. Maybe with Legend it'll all work out beautifully.

I think it would be great if they do it in a POP style. Yes, I've always enjoyed TR, and I'd gotten used to the "hop back, run forward & jump" technique, but then I picked up POP one day, and I loved the fact that I didn't need to do that. It felt so much better to just be able to run, jump, grab, climb, etc, without having to be so mathematical about everything. I mean, when I first played TR, it took me a while to get inside the designer's head and break the world down into Lego blocks so that I could determine, "Ah, if I want to jump four squares, I need to do a hop-back-run-jump-grab maneuver. If I need to do a single square jump, I can do it this other way..." I felt less connected to the character, and more connected to the mechanics of how the game was built. With POP, I didn't need to dissect the game like that, everything was fluid, and I could just feel whether or not something was "jumpable."
Wonder if Lara will be able to run on walls?

susan
31st May 2005, 17:07
Wonder if Lara will be able to run on walls?Wouldn't that be like stealing the Prince's trademark?? :eek:

I felt less connected to the character, and more connected to the mechanics of how the game was built. With POP, I didn't need to dissect the game like that, everything was fluid, and I could just feel whether or not something was "jumpable." I think I know what you mean when you say you felt more connected with the character in PoP - you prefer to get on with the game and progress the story/action?

For me thinking about moving the character is part of the game. Like climbing a mountain - where shall I put my left hand, that ledge or that one? And to fully satisfy that challenge you need a character that moves in a real(ish)-to-life way.

That's where TR(1-5)'s movements excelled for me, they made moving around realistic and controllable. In real life you can move backwards (both step and jump), step side-to-side, turn around on the spot, walk slowly, stand still and line yourself up in any direction you want, look down at your toes, over your shoulder and up at the sky. Your movements are precise and they are not "location/position sensitive" either, you can jump up and down whether there's a gap to be crossed or not.

Combine the ability to move like this with a from behind camera and it feels like it's you inside the game. The immersion factor is enormous.

Obviously having a grid of squares to line up to calculate jumping distances is unrealistic, but I always saw it simply as a tool to allow you to mimic that realistic, precise manoeuvrability and control of yourself that you have in real life.

The Prince's movements are more restricted. He's easy to steer around but that's what it feels like to me - steering an object around an onscreen 3D world. Ultimately he's less controllable than Lara (I can't be the only one who wobbles or veers off to one side when taking running jumps) but they make allowances for this by having very forgiving gameplay. They make jumps and grabs virtually impossible to fail on...they make it easy. If they make this easy, they lose an important element of the gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I can still get into games like PoP but for me they're not in the same league as TR. And, by the looks of it Legend's controls are not exactly the same as PoP's anyway.

:( (Sorry for the long post, it's just something I feel quite strongly about.)

dhama
31st May 2005, 18:40
I agree 110% Susan. ;)

midroth
31st May 2005, 19:00
Anyhow is Susan not wrong...

Solange
31st May 2005, 19:14
Anyhow is Susan not wrong...
She never is! :)

20193
31st May 2005, 19:35
LOL! :p Tomb Raider Central now has faster page loads and most problems have been sorted! Check it out!

CatSuit&Ponytail
1st Jun 2005, 10:22
:o I had thought the same thing when I read the interview linked in this thread. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=50751) Other members had similar comments.



:confused: This business about "Not lining up your jumps" sorta bothers me. The good thing about Tomb Raider and the two steps back/one jump back in order to make a long jump, was that THE PLAYER is the one who has to finess the jump, not the game engine automatically landing you on the edge..... It took more skill, and if that has been taken away, the new developement team may have missed the beauty of making a jump that had been haunting you for a while...

[QUOTE=CatSuit&Ponytail]:confused: This business about "Not lining up your jumps" sorta bothers me. QUOTE]
I agree. To me, this is one of the things that really makes getting through a level a challenge.
And lumping all of Lara's moves into some kind of automatic "natural" action gets me wondering. How does that game know what you want to do?
If I want to grab a cliff-edge, then I do.
By trying to improve her I hope CD hasn't gone and really messed up. :cool:

That's true. I wanna play, not see how the engine is playing.
If my jump is wrong, the jump will fail. Maybe Lara falls to dead.
I fiddle the correct jump out and if it needs the whole day.

But, I guess, CD knows this.

I sure hope you are right, midroth, and Crystal Dynamics doesn't make that mistake, because a lot of tomb raiders feel strongly about this. :)

CatSuit&Ponytail
1st Jun 2005, 10:29
I've always prefered the precision of TR's movements over games like PoP, they feel more real to me, but we'll see.
Along with making the game more immersive, it also makes the game challenging, longer to complete, meatier ;) to have to work at a jump, and not just have it handed over to you. I'm not a child, I don't need help, whether that be a hand icon or a mile-wide jump forgiveness or an invisible wall to keep me from falling to my doom. :rolleyes:

susan
1st Jun 2005, 12:24
I sure hope you are right, midroth, and Crystal Dynamics doesn't make that mistake, because a lot of tomb raiders feel strongly about this. :)
I wanna play, not see how the engine is playing.
Along with making the game more immersive, it also makes the game challenging, longer to complete, meatier to have to work at a jump, and not just have it handed over to you. I'm not a child, I don't need help, whether that be a hand icon or a mile-wide jump forgiveness or an invisible wall to keep me from falling to my doom.I agree. :cool:

The invisible wall thing just throws me straight out of the game experience. AoD - Oh, look, Lara can't go down that street because she's blocked by a row of temporary fencing that reaches to her... knees...!! :rolleyes:


She never is! Er, er. :o

Mangar The Dark
1st Jun 2005, 14:30
The Prince's movements are more restricted. He's easy to steer around but that's what it feels like to me - steering an object around an onscreen 3D world. Ultimately he's less controllable than Lara (I can't be the only one who wobbles or veers off to one side when taking running jumps) but they make allowances for this by having very forgiving gameplay. They make jumps and grabs virtually impossible to fail on...they make it easy. If they make this easy, they lose an important element of the gameplay.

I see what you're saying, and overall, I do prefer TR over POP. But, I don't think the challenge of the game should come from trying to get into the designer's head and trying to understand the algorithms used when programming the game (case in point-- I got better at lining up jumps after messing around with the TR level editor because I could break everything down into squares and I knew what distances Lara could cover depending on whether she was running, walking, etc. For me, that detracts from the feel of exploring an imaginary world, and I become less focused on that world, and more focused on how the designer planned for me to interact with it.)

Another thing which I guess influences my opinion on this is that I don't particularly NEED to be really challenged in order to enjoy a game. I just want to have fun. POP keeps things moving, and even though the jumps, wall-runs, etc are mostly quite easy, they're still fun to do because they FEEL dangerous (kind of like watching a movie-- you know the hero will survive, but you get an adrenaline rush from seeing him/her in danger.) I would much rather spend my time making a series of fun, relatively easy jumps that feel exciting, than spend my time hitting F6 to reload my last savepoint, ad-nauseum, because I keep missing a jump.

Now, I don't think POP was ideal, and some of its combat sequence were downright infuriating (I've actually given up on the game), but I did like the controls for running around and exploring (though, of course, Lara's worlds offered more exploration options.) So I guess what I want is a combination of the best elements from both series.

susan
1st Jun 2005, 16:46
Another thing which I guess influences my opinion on this is that I don't particularly NEED to be really challenged in order to enjoy a game. I just want to have fun. POP keeps things moving, and even though the jumps, wall-runs, etc are mostly quite easy, they're still fun to do because they FEEL dangerous (kind of like watching a movie-- you know the hero will survive, but you get an adrenaline rush from seeing him/her in danger.) I would much rather spend my time making a series of fun, relatively easy jumps that feel exciting, than spend my time hitting F6 to reload my last savepoint, ad-nauseum, because I keep missing a jump.I know exactly what you're saying and I can get into games like this too for the same reasons. It's a slightly different type of switching off from the world than TR for me, but still pretty good.

Now, I don't think POP was ideal, and some of its combat sequence were downright infuriating (I've actually given up on the game), LOL!! I loved those never ending respawning enemies too. :D