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Adam23
27th Mar 2005, 10:58
Guys,

What an excellant looking game! You've done a fine job and I am very much looking forward to playing it!

BUT!...

Your "Rifleman" unit in the British army is an extremely poor mistake that I desperatly hope you take the time to change before the game is released!

Riflemen (otherwise known as Greenjackets) wore green uniforms and were armed with Baker Rifles, not muskets. Your rifleman has a red coat and a musket!

To have Sir John Moore as one of the heroes of the British Army and not recognise the distinctive features of the light brigade (riflemen) he had a large part in forming is a grave error and shows an incredible lack of research in this unit.

It is a mistake that the great majority will pick up on, mostly due to the increase in public awareness of this regiment and era given to us by the "Sharpe" series on TV.

This message would be of no use if I did not point you in the right direction! So, take a look at www.95thrifles.com where a re-enactment group portraying the 95th Rifles in the UK has it spot on. They are very helpfull and would be delighted to have the opportunity to help you with your research.

All the best, Adam.

ultaman
27th Mar 2005, 11:26
How could you tell the rifleman unit from the trailer?

I guess it’s the fact they are not there that you raise?

I agree with your comment and also hope they add green jacket riflemen.. who as you know at 200 paces a rifle shot, fired by a trained man, would kill the target - almost three times the range of a musket.

However, the rifles took longer to load - a fact that put armies off using them hence there were very few riflemen.. which is why I guess they forgot them :)

Mike_B
27th Mar 2005, 12:15
First I'm assuming that you saw this by watching a trailer, those are from early development and for all we know it could be changed already.

Second:



Do you concern getting things historically correct as important? For example, many history buffs don’t like the standardisation of the Empire’s uniform colours. Will there be an option to display the Empire’s uniforms as how they really were in that time?

FC: We’ve always been really concerned about being as accurate as possible. That’s why we have made a lot of research and worked with historian experts in this time period, to be sure we didn’t make outrageous errors. Though, we’re making a game, which means that the gameplay always comes first. Also, the game starts in 1789 but can end in 1840 (or even much later if there is no winner), so it was impossible for us to display the changes in uniforms for each army all over this time period, not mentioning the flags, borders, etc… without giving the player 3 full DVD to install and expending another two years working in the game. We saw on our forum a long debate between some history experts about the colour of the paint used on the English cannons wheels! It is sure some of them will not be pleased by the necessary adjustments we had to make to have a consistent and user friendly gameplay.

HellAngel_666
27th Mar 2005, 15:42
p.s. i hope to mod this till it shines like it should... basicly the captain - general idea is CR - AP ! so that's going first. i could care less about 3 units i want 20! also skins are probly the most asy thing to mod, even a none moder could do it (you could) :) hope that builds some confidence.

The_Russian_Rocket
27th Mar 2005, 16:28
Here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=49004&highlight=Green+Jackets)
Again (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=48203&highlight=Green+Jackets)
Once More (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=46799&highlight=Green+Jackets)
Use the search button. (Getting tired of this).

Adam23
27th Mar 2005, 16:36
I got the information from the web site, looking at the "War on Land" section on Great Britain.

I totaly understand that you have to consider gameplay but bear in mind that the "rifles" were formed as an experimental corp in 1800 and when they eventually went into service as the "95th Rifles" they fought all the way through the peninsular as well as many other campaigns) without changing their uniform once! Its not that difficult to represent!

All i'm saying is that it is a terrible overview to have the "rifles" in red armed with muskets! Its not like i'm picking on the number of buttons on his tunic! Its like giving the horses wheels instead of legs :)

I realise that you have to generalise the units as it would be far to comlicated to get all of them in the game, and totally unneccesary! But you should understand that riflemen (the 95th) were the first and only regiment of rifles in the British army at that time, they marked an incrediblely dramatic turning point in British Military History. Their were Cavalry, Artillary, Infantry and Rifles! You should represent them as they were or not at all.

Yes i am interested in history (most strategy gamers are), but I am not so fanatic that I would pick at every detail. I'm just making the effort to try and prevent you from making a mistake that will damage this games credibility.

Again, if your looking for the correct way to represent a rifleman visit www.95thrifles.com, the information on the site would help you understand why it is such a recognisable unit.

It is well worth changing as any one who knows anything about the Napoleonic Wars knows what a rifleman is and has an idea of what they look like.

Thanks for the responce, hope to hear back again soon! Adam. :)

sqall
27th Mar 2005, 17:40
Hopefully its already changed, we will find out when the demo is released. Which I think is about 1 week or something.

Mike_B
27th Mar 2005, 18:23
also skins are probly the most asy thing to mod, even a none moder could do it (you could) :).

Don't want to burst your buble but with Praetorians it couldn't be done untill the Lead Designer explained the file format in depth. That way the files could be deciphered etc.

HellAngel_666
27th Mar 2005, 18:32
Don't want to burst your buble but with Praetorians it couldn't be done untill the Lead Designer explained the file format in depth. That way the files could be deciphered etc.

egh... that stinks... every game i'v modded, skins was the first thing people changed... :rolleyes: i'll just find a way to do it...

sqall
27th Mar 2005, 20:16
hey, HellAngel. Do you know a good programme where I can use for modding? Like RTW and hopfully Imperial Glory.

sick
27th Mar 2005, 21:51
Each game needs a different file (de)coder, sqall. So don't expect that modding tools for RTW will work for IG as well.



i'll just find a way to do it...
That's a deal. ;)

HellAngel_666
27th Mar 2005, 22:58
the most EASIEST games i'v every modded were in freaking NOTEPAD!!!! :eek: i was freaking amazed and i loved it! lol akella you rule! ;) modder friendly :D

Blas_de_Lezo
28th Mar 2005, 00:04
This is a big mistake????

how do you know that in the game they fight whit muskests? did you see in the trailer ?

And the green jacket ... if they put the rifleman whit the green jacket they have to put other units whit they real colours , and in the middle of a battle it can be a chaos .

To me a big mistake it`s that don`t appears in the game the polish lancers , or that you can`t play whit a country (sp..n) that was more important that others countrys that you can change in the game .

This mistakes, like the muskests, were imposible to correct . ( maybe in the games of the 2020 ) .

Adam23: "But you should understand that riflemen (the 95th) were the first and only regiment of rifles in the British army at that time, they marked an incrediblely dramatic turning point in British Military History. Their were Cavalry, Artillary, Infantry and Rifles! You should represent them as they were or not at all."

:D in the peninsular war a big part of the 95º rifleman were spanish . just anecdotic :p





pd : http://www.95thrifles.com/95th-home/main/ ---> it´s very interesting :)

Adam23
28th Mar 2005, 01:36
If you look at the picture on the website of a "rifleman" on the "War on Land" section on Great Britain you can see he is carrying a musket and wearing a redcoat

Quite simply the rifleman should be in a green jacket becuase this is what he wore historically. You cant change history! You cant dress the french in pink tunics and floral summer skirts because it fits in with the game, its supposed to represent the history!

As for chaos on the battlefied, I think most individuals can cope with more than just one colour code for their units, if anything it adds a bit of variety and makes the whole thing look more visually impressive.

Yes it is true that a large part of the 95th were spanish (and indeed many other nationalities), the same scenario for many British units. Perhaps because it gave the men of Spain something to do after their own army ran away! :)

Who knows, someone involved with the game may take note of all this sooner or later and tell us their view? :)

Adam

Mike_B
28th Mar 2005, 09:16
Who knows, someone involved with the game may take note of all this sooner or later and tell us their view? :)
Adam

Hmm I already posted their view, but maybe you missed it :)


Do you concern getting things historically correct as important? For example, many history buffs don’t like the standardisation of the Empire’s uniform colours. Will there be an option to display the Empire’s uniforms as how they really were in that time?

FC: We’ve always been really concerned about being as accurate as possible. That’s why we have made a lot of research and worked with historian experts in this time period, to be sure we didn’t make outrageous errors. Though, we’re making a game, which means that the gameplay always comes first. Also, the game starts in 1789 but can end in 1840 (or even much later if there is no winner), so it was impossible for us to display the changes in uniforms for each army all over this time period, not mentioning the flags, borders, etc… without giving the player 3 full DVD to install and expending another two years working in the game. We saw on our forum a long debate between some history experts about the colour of the paint used on the English cannons wheels! It is sure some of them will not be pleased by the necessary adjustments we had to make to have a consistent and user friendly gameplay.

Adam23
28th Mar 2005, 12:07
No, didnt miss that, I just don't think that is a good enough excuse for such a blindingly obvious mistake.

Quote: We’ve always been really concerned about being as accurate as possible. That’s why we have made a lot of research and worked with historian experts in this time period, to be sure we didn’t make outrageous errors.

Take a look at the web site, riflemen are in red coats (rather than green jackets) and are armed with muskets (rather than rifles). What "historian experts" have they been dealing with exactly! :confused:

Again, having said that I think the rest of the game is really very good and I am looking forward to playing the demo! :)

Adam

Lindkvist
28th Mar 2005, 13:15
I agree with you Adam, but we have to face it that they will not do any change regarding the green jackets. :(

The British riflemen are far from the only obvious example of mistake regarding the uniforms.

They made the French more or less as historical accurate as they could (except from the dragoons which they made blue!) and then they made the other nations the same way using the same 3D models and simply using a different color. The only exception to this is the black watch. The British line infantry look ok except for the French stylish shako.

The Russian and Prussians are an exact copy of the French only different colors. Historically most Prussian units didn't even wear black uniforms!

So taking this in consideration the green jackets is not the biggest problem unless you only care about the Brits.

This is not a wargame that tend to appeal wargame grognards and history buffs so historical correct uniforms are not a priority for Pyro studios.

However the graphics look good and sea battles are stunning. Hopefully the gameplay is good too.

About the musket of the riflemen, one can only hope that they at least will behave like rifles. ;)

/Lars L.

Adam23
28th Mar 2005, 13:19
Your right, as I have said throughout this discusion I am looking forward to what looks like a brilliant game! Can't wait till its released, perhaps they could patch some of the mistakes later?

Does anyone know for sure when the demo will be out? I've seen a number of different opinions, most seem to think within the next week?

Adam

Mike_B
28th Mar 2005, 15:27
There isn't a set date I believe. However as soon as Project Snowblind comes out here (Europe version contains the demo) it'll be online very soon.

templari
28th Mar 2005, 15:40
Well i havent looked over the main website at the battle on land or whatever, but i can say the Bakers look close enough to muskets so that when you are playing the game im sure you won't notice any different.

Having the rifles in green would be appreciated, but mainly only so i can find the group as quickly as possible. However im not worried about that mistake either, i tihnk there colour would be to big of a problem when its really only 3 companies that where the green.


were there any other Rifle regiments or companies, then the 95th??

Blas_de_Lezo
28th Mar 2005, 16:18
Adam23: "Yes it is true that a large part of the 95th were spanish (and indeed many other nationalities), the same scenario for many British units. Perhaps because it gave the men of Spain something to do after their own army ran away"


1º they recruit spanish because they haven´t got enought english soldiers to fight.
2º dear adam , the spanish army never run away. :rolleyes:

sammobrownie
28th Mar 2005, 16:28
not during the napoleonic wars, although more rifle regiments were added later to the army. This may not be right but I belive that the English got the idea for Rifle companies from Inia, when they were up against them in the Sutan Tippoo's army. Anyone who has read the Sharpe books or films may well recognise this.

Adam23
28th Mar 2005, 16:58
FAO Templari: The 95th was the first rifle regiment in the British Army. All three battalions wore the green jackets. Their were other rifle units, namely the 5/60th and the Kings German Legion etc. Also, your right, the difference between a Baker rifle and a musket won't be recognisable in the game, so long as the range and accuracy are portrayed authentically it wont matter.

FAO Blas-de-Lezo: The Spanish army retreated from the Battle of Talavera before it started because the sound of thier own volley frightened them. They were clearing their guns of damp powder from the previous evening. Just one example. ;)

Also, Spanish men were drafted into service but a regular draft of new recruits was continually coming from England.

FAO sammobrownie: The idea for a rifle regiment came from British Army experiances in the War of Independance (in America) and the development of military trends throughout Europe. Nothing to do with India. Although the Sharpe books are a very good read. :)

Adam

IKirov
28th Mar 2005, 17:11
My two cents: While accurate uniforms would be a very nice thing to see as confirmation of the historical accuracy of the game, I have a feeling that Pyro won't incorporate them. Why? Most probably to avoid confusion: the Russian army is already outfitted in green, so whatever clothing adjustments are to be made to other sides will have to be highly limited (for instance, the stylized Black Watch, which still have distinguishable red uniform jackets). While I personally would not be confused (especially since the regimental Union Jack is there above my troops), the developers are most likely worried (and understandably so) that the majority of gamers would be annoyed at their green rifle companies.

Adam23
28th Mar 2005, 22:28
I've added a Poll to the thread, have your say! :cool:

Adam.

Casaca_Blanca
28th Mar 2005, 22:34
Hi Adam, I was reading this post, as one more and suddenly I found this!

FAO Blas-de-Lezo: The Spanish army retreated from the Battle of Talavera before it started because the sound of thier own volley frightened them. They were clearing their guns of damp powder from the previous evening. Just one example.

Can you please tel me where did you read this?
I supose you are talking about a French attack during the night.
The attack was aganist divisions 3rd and 4th near the british troops, composed by Spanish peasants.
There were 18000 Spanish and only run away 200, the same who came back for their own feet when the oficials called them.

But, I know a real story about a run away, it was in Alicante 22 March 1707.
It was a British troop of 450 men and 80 Spanish horsemen charged.
Finally 80 British died, 100 wounded and 270 prisoners were made.
They only surrendered, a real runaway.
No Spanish died.

Can you tell us a story like that, tanks ;)

Adam23
28th Mar 2005, 23:59
Check the history books my friend! :)

You want another "story"?

How about the one where the Spanish withdrew from the conflict, handing over the Spanish Crown to the French (Napoleons brother Joseph to be precise), as the allied forces were aproaching Madrid!

This resulted in Sir John Moore's famous retreat to Corruna which in turn lead to the unnecesary loss of many lives, including his own.

Another...

How about the Spanish Partisans who, with the exeption of a core of noble freedom fighters, spent their time as bandits and highwaymen preying on the allied forces and their own people more often than the French invaders!

I have no interest in debating the flaws of the Spanish army! As with many other armys it had its good and bad points. It detracts away from the original issue regarding the Riflemen in the game Imperial Glory (heard of it?).

If your looking to let off some steam, write a book! :)

Adam

IKirov
29th Mar 2005, 20:51
Now hold on a second here. Why are you regarding the French as the 'bad guys?' Do you have any idea what Joseph, as king of Spain, did for the country? The order of the day under the Bourbons was essentially corruption, widespread absentee land ownership, mass destitution, unbelievably atrocious clerical abuses (spurred on, of course, by the legacy of their 'most Catholic' majesties), and etc. Joseph represented positive, devolutionary land reform, effective and corruption-free civil administration, and political and social improvements. The mass Spanish insurgency, inexplicably, continued despite these reforms. Of course, there was a good deal of plundering and stealing by the French soldiers, but they were encouraged to do so by their superiors and their military tradition. There is, really, no real reason besides a misplaced nationalism for the Spanish rebellion.

And as for the other European powers? They were all brutal reactionary regimes, autocratic, conservative in the worst old-style manner. French civil, legal, political, and administrative reform represented a revolution in political action. It represented the beginning of the modern system of political administration. Except for Britain, which suffered greatly under the auspices of an often arbitrarily stupid Parliament, all Continental power are certainly not admirable in the least. Although Bonaparte was the sole sovereign of France, an effective domestic civil administration and his personal convictions never permitted such horrific offenses to his nation and his people as Alexander, Francis, Frederick William, and the Bourbon satellite rulers instated.

Please do not offend France like that :-) .

Casaca_Blanca
30th Mar 2005, 00:12
I know this thread is about riflemen (I'm aganist putting the green jacket because if they should put the real colours of every unit and it wil be confuse in the battlefield.
But I can't avoid replying to your comments (totally invented, ofensive and ridiculous as for example that Spanish soldiers ran away because they scaried because of the noise of their own canon shots) about some topics or themes related to Spain

How about the Spanish Partisans who, with the exeption of a core of noble freedom fighters, spent their time as bandits and highwaymen preying on the allied forces and their own people more often than the French invaders!


I think here you are talking about the "guerrilla".
Well, this "evil guerrilla that was killing and assaulting the allies and their own people more than the French invader" killed more French soldiers than the British soldiers in the peninsula war.
It saved the British (Including Wellington) of a carnage in several times by intercepting French mails and they cared that the British recived supplies and were feed by the Spanish.
Thanks to that guerrilla, G.B. could win the French army or, Do you think that the British army (80.000 soldiers) won the French one (300.000) when it was the best of the epoc?
I also remember you that Napoleon wrote several chapters in his personal diary to that guerrilla and said that Spain (not England) was the 50% of his defeat.
That thing about they attacked the British and Spanish army, I've read many books about this guerrilla and noone talks about it, so please, write here and say some places and dates of them, if not, I'll think you're lying again.

But I know some attacks of English to their allies the Spanish as for exemple in Badajoz, where the English killed lots of civilians (Wellington was disapointed with their troops acts), in Vigo they sacked the city and they raped the woman. In San Sebastián where they asolated the town and killed 3/4 parts of the population.
They also burned spanish factories which products competed with the english one's and after they said that the French did it.

How about the one where the Spanish withdrew from the conflict, handing over the Spanish Crown to the French (Napoleons brother Joseph to be precise), as the allied forces were aproaching Madrid!


About this, the Spanish didn't ranaway, they fought and were defeated (after beeing the firts country winning a battle aganist La Grand Armee in Bailén), they lost as Prussia or Austria and also England could do if it wasn't an island. And the Spanish army continued fighting still having been defeated.
You haven't give me an example of a real runaway (If you think a runaway is beeing defeated, I can tell you some English "runaways": Dunquerque, Cartagena de Indias, Battle of Canary Islands, Tolón, Isandlwana)
;)


he mass Spanish insurgency, inexplicably, continued despite these reforms. Of course, there was a good deal of plundering and stealing by the French soldiers, but they were encouraged to do so by their superiors and their military tradition. There is, really, no real reason besides a misplaced nationalism for the Spanish rebellion.


Ikirov, I'm not agree with you in this part, it's true that José brought reforms that could improve Spain, but there were lots of reasons for a Spanish revellion.

1st because of the patriotism, don't forguet that Spain was the largest empire in extension and had the 2nd best navy with a great militar tradition and they still remembered the golden age, when Spain was the only superpower, so they couldn't admit that humiliation.

2nd because the reforms, took out power to the church that controled the iliterates peaseants. So the priests (as some of the actuals muslim imans do with the holy war) they sugest the peolple to fight aganist the French and they said that killing French was greeting by God because they were heretic people.

3rd because French troops, looted, killed without a reason an raped the children and women.

This is all friends ;)

firestarter
30th Mar 2005, 11:28
Quote: But I can't avoid replying to your comments (totally invented, ofensive and ridiculous as for example that Spanish soldiers ran away because they scaried because of the noise of their own canon shots) about some topics or themes related to Spain


....Oh, please. This isn't invented. Read every source of information about the Battle of Talavera that exists and you'll see that it clearly happened. It wasn't the sound of their cannon shots, rather the sounds of the whole line of Spanish firing their muskets at the same times.

There is no doubt without the Spanish guerillas the French army would never have been defeated in the peninsula, however, you seem to want to portray Spain as the only country that did anything. You only accept anything that you say, and reject anything anyone else points out about Spain that is negative.

As much enjoyment as you take on pointing out Britain's mistakes, you fail to see the Spanish guerillas often did the same horrible things to the French. There is evidence that suggests Spanish Guerillas killed, raped and tortured not just French soldiers but women and children too. But I'm not just pinpointing Spain. Yes, Britain did it, France did it. Hell, everyone did it. Wake and smell the coffee, senor.

Anyway, back on topic. I think having the riflemen correctly in green will just create confusion, and if they tried to get every unit exactly accurate, you'd need a great handbook to understand it all.

Adam23
30th Mar 2005, 11:58
Thank you Firestarter! Please note Cassa Blanca that I am not attacking the Spanish Army or indeed Spain itself. You wanted historical examples and I gave them to you. At no point have I denied the atrociites commited by British Soldiers (notably the aftermath of the Siege of Badajoz).

Perhaps if you read a history book regarding the Peninsular War that wasn't written in Spain you will find your answers! ;)

As for riflemen, I still think it would be just as easy to play a game with different coloured units, in fact it would be a welcome change! However bearing in mind that the artillery crews are redcoats (and I guess the rocket troop probably will be aswell) it isn't likely to change :(

Just a point, it works in Rome Total War when your mercenaries are a different colour to the rest of your army, so why not this game? :confused:

Looks like we could be rellying on the efforts of a talented modder! That being said, can't wait for the game!

All the best, Adam.

HellAngel_666
30th Mar 2005, 20:53
it so you can see your units better on the map... ie. know whos who... it isn't changing :(

sammobrownie
31st Mar 2005, 10:08
talking about total war, they are currently working on a napoleon total war 2. How cool is this. :cool: (They did make a napoleon total war 1 but it didn't take off for them!!)

Grifman
1st Apr 2005, 01:52
It may be a mistake, but it's hardly a big one - that's ludicrous. Geez, complain about something important, not the colors of a coat. Please . . .

Adam23
1st Apr 2005, 11:26
I don't see it as being ludicrous at all, if your going to make a historical game about the napoleonic wars (or any other game for that matter) then why not spend a little time doing it properly? :confused:

It looks like a budget tv documentry and, having played the demo, really could have done with a bit more research. Even so it will be a success to those who (like yourslef) couldn't give a damn wether the troops were in pajamas and noddy hats, but it will never be THE Napoleonic strategy game.

Bearing in mind that we are aproaching the 200th anniversaries (next one being Trafalgar) I would have thought that a little more effort would have been made. :)

Grifman
1st Apr 2005, 23:45
It's ludicrous to call it a "big" mistake - it's hardly a game breaker. I understand your desire for accuracy - just don't call it a big mistake - that's making a mountain out of a molehill. And please don't be silly - just because I don't agree with your opinion about it's importance, please don't make silly assumptions that I don't care whether they wear pajamas or not. Hyperbole does not an argument make.

Adam23
7th Apr 2005, 16:59
Keep voting people! :cool:

langmann
7th Apr 2005, 21:22
I've added a Poll to the thread, have your say! :cool:

Adam.

I agree with you buddy. It would not be hard for them to have fixed a few common thing that have been mentioned. One of my major problems is that the unit is a unit of skirmishers but they don't seem to skirmish... kind of a major flaw IMHO.

But you have to remember that it seems like there are two factions on this site that you are fighting against:

1. The people who are happy to point and click as fast as they can without any regard to tactics or history.

2. People who seem to want to defend Pyro studios out of some sort of nationalistic loyalty or strange corporate loyalty?

However all we can hope is that the TW CA will do a version of this game and that they'll try and be a little more historically and tactically accurate, and if not someone will mod it.

Oh and yes the Spanish did run away quite a bit. Not their fault really, their leaders were pretty shoddy and corrupt. Not that Joseph and Nappy didn't steal all their money as well...

andytimtim
7th Apr 2005, 21:26
Hopefully this is the right picture...for people who want the Greenjackets is this it?



http://img186.exs.cx/img186/5743/indeximage53915km.jpg

HellAngel_666
7th Apr 2005, 21:37
ya but i always thought they were more BLACK then GREEN! lol but thats just me