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WilliamBushUSN
29th Oct 2004, 15:08
I just found this site.

I have been a part of the Age Of Sail II (Akella) community for some time now. We are organized by major navies of the 1776-1815 period.

We often have large naval battles with up to 10 players playing simultaneously together which allows for fairly decent size fleet actions. The game is getting old and many in our community have been looking for an alternative and the joining of both naval and land actions in one game (Imperial Glory) seems more than intriguing, in fact too good to be true.

Do those who know a lot about the development of this game think that this could be a good fit for our community?

I have come to realize that the robustness of multiplayer seems to be the key to an interesting game (many of us are now only playing mutliplayer - AI becomes too boring to quickly). For instance I noticed that Age of Sail II allows for up to 10 players, and when Age Of Sail II Privateer's Bounty came out after, they spruced up the game a bit but multiplayer was reduced to 4 players max, and it became at least for me a much less interesting game.

Again a question for the Developers, do you see Imperial Glory offering sophisticated naval battles like Age Of Sail II, or hopefully even more sophisticated battles?

Also, anyone else who is interested in the Naval side of the Napoleonic Era please chime in.

Regards,

Capt Wm Bush USN

McLeod
29th Oct 2004, 16:42
S! Mr. Bush

Amiral de France Bladerunner here:D

Sorry, but my sl-name was already in use in this forum:(

Walsh
29th Oct 2004, 20:40
I too am interested in the Naval aspects of the Napoleonic period just as much as I am with the land battles. I very much hope that Imperial Glory will simulate this vital aspect of the Napoleonic Wars in an involved and satisfying way.

Such work could not only build upon popular films such as "Master & Commander" and the Hornblower series but would also serve to set this game apart from Rome: Total War. Without a good naval simulation being built into it Imperial Glory will inevitably be looked on as just Rome: Total War in other clothes. To successfully recreate the wars at sea and on land would really bring the period to life would surely be a feather in one's cap.

ThinRedLine
30th Oct 2004, 00:21
Gentlemen,

I agree totally with Mr. Walsh. I hope that the Naval side of this game is dealt with as well as the Land side seems to be.

I serve as an Emissary for the Grenadier Guards, an NTW Clan, and we look to this game's release with great anticipation. As good as NTW is(and the MP is truly inspiring), we all believe that this period deserves a dedicated game as well as a community.

I have sailed with the USN in AOS II and many in that community have started to lose interest, or, again seem to be looking forward to games such as IG to help give them an infusion of new energy and enthusiasm. Indeed if IG could deal with naval warfare in a realistic and detailed way it would help that whole community get some wind back in their sails perhaps.

I look forward to reading more of the posts here as well as contributing a bit here and there as may be appropriate.

I would love to see this game be very successful and then perhaps see an expansion/patch for the War of 1812(a particular passion of mine).

Ladies, Gentlemen, I salute you!

ThinRedLine
30th Oct 2004, 00:30
Hello again,

I just thought that I would include a screenie from AOS II here to perhaps spur on more good Naval Discussion and how it might be improved with IG.

http://www.ntwgg.com/Gallery/rake.jpg

Cheers!

[GG]TRL

Capt. Hatter USN
30th Oct 2004, 04:15
Just to add my own emphasis to m'colleagues. AOS2 came out in the late 90s and was a terribly flawed game, bugs galore, but it commanded a serious multiplayer following that still exists today. There is a realgap in the market for a decent multiplayer naval game. Imeprial Glroy would do well to exploit this - there are plenty of land based Napoleonic Games, especially with the NTW conversion, a good naval engine would set this apart and give it the legs the terrible AOS2 has.

God Save the Republic!

Hatter.

The_Russian_Rocket
30th Oct 2004, 12:50
To set this apart from all the other games of it's genre a strong naval engine is necessary. It also needs to be realistic in order to really stand out. What worries me is that how we will be building a warship. Do we make the choice to build then wait a turn then have our ship or is it make choice to build have ship right then.

jones sgs
31st Oct 2004, 01:23
Salute to my Colleagues from the USN and MFr.

I to have recently found and again play AOS2 on a regular basis and i am also waiting for Pirates of the burning Sea.

CaptTermiteUSN
31st Oct 2004, 17:44
Test post. Ive had a bit of squalls getting into this forum. Why does the reply email go into junk mail? lol. The crew is superstitious anyways and thinks its a bad omen.

Just joking, greetings to all present and former AOS players and hopeing to see more uff yer weed-grown keels around here.

I'd like to say to the developers of Imperial Glory that most of my mates and I would very much enjoy some beta-testing of this game if such a thing takes place. I have also played and beta-tested three versions of a non-military sailing simulator and would be happy to share my knowledge, such that it is if you all are interested.

Hope to see some lively play here someday.
Meantime 'keep 'em drawin' '

Capt Termite USN
USS Constellation 38
Chesapeake Bay

Czar
1st Nov 2004, 00:03
I am not an AOS player but would love to get into this era of Naval Warfare...

My concerns are these:
1/ The Devs have already said that there will be no combined naval - land actions.

This is a mistake IMHO. It also seems there is some player demand for this.
I hope the Devs will reconsider even at the expense of delaying the proposed release date.
Allowing for shore bombardments and fort actions could make this game a classic.
If they don't do this then this game will likely be surpassed in a year or two when a game is released which DOES allow you to do this.

2/ Limited Map.
Please include the Americas and the East Indies.

3/ Naval Multiplayer Global Management.
Allow Fleets and ships to sail the seas worldwide somehow managed by a game manager.
Possibility of world wide campaign spanning years of game time (months in real time?) with actual Admiralties. Multi player battles being played as and when ships / fleets meet.
Difficult? - yes
Technically possible? Yes


As AOSII shows (reading this thread) - a game can survive for years IF it allows some flexability. It would be nice to see IG become a classic too.

Vic Flange
1st Nov 2004, 11:23
Some good posts here, as ever. I've been really impressed with the quality of the posting over the last few months - it's nice to see that there may be some good designers out there for the future :)

In reply to some specific points-
- In terms of effort, we definitely haven't been neglecting the naval side of things for the land battles. Although we're not a naval-specific game, we think there'll be enough variety in there within the context of the game - different classes of ships, choice of ammo to attack different areas of the ships, influence of the wind, different crews which can improve with experience etc
- The battles will also look much, much better than anything else out there. We understand that hardcore strategy gamers like yourselves aren't influenced by graphics, and we wouldn't try to sell you a nice looking, "empty" game, but the graphical quality of the game is an enormous plus point for us and has led many non-strategy gamers to become interested in the title, which is great for the genre as a whole
- In the management model, we also have provision for merchant fleets and some "off-map" shenanigans in the Quests
- On the building of ships, different vessels will take different amounts of time (turns) to build

As I mentioned at the top of this post, I've seen loads of good ideas about content throughout the board. Some have/will go in, some won't. The thing is, you have to reach a point in development where content is finalised, or else you'd never release the game :( Depending on demand for a sequel though, we may include some features mentioned here - I have been taking notes... ;)

Finally, I'd love to get on more often to chat to everyone but things are just too busy here, unfortunately. All your posts are very much appreciated though and we do read them, even if we don't get the chance to reply...

french_crash
1st Nov 2004, 18:13
hi all, this is my first post on this forum


Originally posted by CaptTermiteUSN
.....
Chesapeake Bay

By the way.. Chesapeak Bay was * great french naval victory again the UK navy during the american independance war:D

so my question is:

Will I be able to block (maritime blockade) my opponent's with my float?
As it was the basis of the napoleonic war between France and England !

Vic Flange
1st Nov 2004, 19:23
Yes, you'll be able to blockade enemy fleets and cut off trade routes.

Willmore
2nd Nov 2004, 02:10
Originally posted by Vic Flange
Some good posts here, as ever. I've been really impressed with the quality of the posting over the last few months - it's nice to see that there may be some good designers out there for the future :)


Are you offering a job ?

Cause I'll move to Spain for a six-figure-ish salary !

Hell ... I'll move to the Arctic circle for a six-figure salary ! :-)

Arctic_Wolf
2nd Nov 2004, 02:12
What if that salary was $0.00000 :rolleyes:

Willmore
2nd Nov 2004, 03:01
stock options ? season tickets to real madrid ?


But seriosuly, I'd love to get into the business, and I live in a good place for that - Redmond, Washington, still it's pretty hard, and so far I'm just taking classes, and hoping a dream offer will fall in my lap one day :-)

WilliamBushUSN
2nd Nov 2004, 06:07
I was wondering if any of the developers were familiar with Age Of Sail II, or perhaps have played it before?

Also, several of us would like to have a short discussion with someone who is developing the naval side of the game.

Regards,

Wm. Bush

Clausewitz
9th Nov 2004, 00:40
Just sailing into this forum on a ruddy Sou'wester, I want to second Messrs Walsh and Bush and express my sincere wish that we will have a fully developed naval battle engine as part of Imperial Glory. I've been an enthusiastic player of Wooden Ships & Iron Men (the ole' board game) as well as STW and MTW. I hope Imperial Glory will integrate the best elements of the TW games with the improvements made on WS&IM by Age of Sail. If not, Mr Pyro, I tell ye there will be trouble before the mast!

CaptTermiteUSN
10th Nov 2004, 04:00
Hi Claus,

I think I remember you from MTW. I was that scoundrel SeaDogg there. I loved Wooden Ships and Iron Men but everytime I played it I wished we had simultaneous movement. AOSII answered that need in a wonderful way and we still play it. You should come over and try it out with us. Its a good way to get in shape for IG, which we are hoping will offer some great sailing.

We cant board in AOSII, any collision of ships crashed the game, so we are really looking forward positively to whether IG will offer it in a balanced way. It will be interesting to see how it changes the tactics we have learned where boarding isnt possible.

See you at sea,

Capt Termite USN
USS Constellation 38
Chesapeake Bay

WilliamBushUSN
10th Nov 2004, 04:04
I saw this and thought it was very interesting. Is the sailing model taking these as well as other sailing conditions into account? The more realistic it is the better gaming experience it will be.

Here's an outling for a very realistic feeling yet very tunable sailing model. It captures many things of real sailing including falling off after going into irons and reduced acceleration going windward so that bearing off a bit is the best way to get going windward. It has rotational and linear inertia too.



let:

max_speed(wind, angle_w) = the sailing speed polar, a function of wind speed and direction. Values close to directly upwind are negative.

accel(angle_w) = a function giving relative acceleration possible. A good starting point here would be to take accel(angle_w) = max_speed(angle_w)^2 and then scale those values. This would simulate the acceleration of real sailing ships by giving high acceleration downwind and low acceleration upwind.

decel = the rate a ship slows if it is going faster than it's polar as in when it tacks.

turn_accel = rotational acceleration

turnrate_r = a constant that is used to calculate the max turn rate from rudder.

turnrate_sail(wind,angle_w) = turn rate possible with steering sails, a function of wind direction and speed


Implementation:

IF Old_speed < Maxspeed(wind,angle_w)

New_speed = Old_speed + [max_speed(wind, angle_w) - Old_speed] * accel(wind, angle_w)

IF OLD_speed > maxspeed(wind, angle_w)
Nwe_speed = Old_speed - deccel

IF a turn is commanded
New_turnrate = Old_turnrate + (turnrate_sail+turnrate rudder*New_speed - Old_turnrate) *turn_accell

IF a course is comanded
New_turnrate = Old_turnrate + course_error * (turnrate_sail+turnrate rudder - Old_turnrate) *turn_accell

Clausewitz
11th Nov 2004, 00:21
Hi Capt'n Termite,

yeah, we meet again. I must say I'm encouraged by Vic Flange's comments, particularly his statement that Pyro would not sacrifice strategic and tactical sophistication to graphics. Seems they have adopted a lot of the WS&IM dynamics that made the game interesting, including different types of shot, crew quality modifiers, etcetera. But he didn't mention boarding... and without a chance to grapple from time to time, what's the use of being, say, Spanish & seaborne? :rolleyes:


AOSII answered that need in a wonderful way and we still play it. You should come over and try it out with us.Thanks for the invitation, man, but no thanks. My work schedule is just too tight to bear more than the occasional round of these boards and intermittent turns of MTW (usually with my kids who love it). But I'll take a gale check on it.

Heave to, ye bunch o' mermaids!

CaptTermiteUSN
11th Nov 2004, 02:03
Seemingly minor physical functions at sea all add up to the feeling and essence of a sailing ship. (And no, I'm not a naval architect or a aeronautics engineer in disguise).
The motion of a ship in a sea, the sound or the wind and the movement of spray are not all constant, they vary with every slight change in speed and angle to the wind, and with every increase, decrease, veer or back of the wind's intensity and strength. One thing missing in AOSII and most other naval sims ive seen is the feeling that the ship is actually in the water, that the icon that represents it is connected to the atmosphere and the fluid it floats in. Leeway is one of those elements. It changes with the efficiency of the trim of sails and of the hull. Leeway is pronounced soon after a tack when laminar flow over the surface of the sails is low, and lessens as speed thru the water picks up and air flow become "attached". Leeway is minor in ideal wind conditions and significant when a heavy sea is running and the ship is over canvased and heeling excessively.

Angle of heel is another item that is not a simple aesthetic. Most hulls are designed to a specific angle of heel. Too little and speed suffers. In very light air some heel is needed simply to give the sails a shape over which the feeble air can move. In heavy wind, a lot of heel prevents the keel, skeg, rudder and other underwater surfaces from ''biting'' into the water sufficiently to move the hull forward. Forward movement thru the water also allows the underwater surfaces of a hull to develope ''lift'', its just not the same lift that wings generate on a plane or bird or that sails develope on a rig.

When a ship is not anchored and not ''under sail'' she will DRIFT. This is simply the windage of the entire profile of the ship, rigging, etc being pushed down wind or perhaps slightly across the wind if the hull binds in the water to some extent. ''STERNWAY'' is a necessary function in a square rigged ship. It was used to set the anchor by dropping and backing down, it was used in combat in some situations to maintain a favorable or raking position and perhaps more importantly is was used if a tack failed.


The ability to accurately set one or more sails in a naval sim would also add greatly to the enjoyment for fighting sailors.
In AOSII for example there is full sail and fighting sail, and a slider that lessers sail area for each setting. But the shape of sails on the slider is totally wrong, no sails are shortened temporarily the way this game represents it. They are trimmed in and out, sheets and guys are hauled or eased. I have trained myself thru long and painful practice to ignore how bad it looks it that game in order to enjoy other parts of it. Likewise, when you lose a mast, you lose the whole mast, not just a sail here or a yardarm or topmast there. The whole thing might come down sometimes, but more often you would lose only part of a rig. Worse yet, the jibboom and bowsprit it solid, it doesnt have the art work to lose it at all. I could go on but perhaps you all get the idea. To be able to render a virtual ship successfully you have to do more than just make a picture that looks ok and move it across imaginary water. You get more if you put more into it, even if some of these features cant be controlled in detail but occur automatically, the more of them that are there, the more successful the experience will be.


All simulation is a compromise of something. We all know that.
We would hope that at least some of these elements can be rendered successfully in the sailing model.

Term

Captain Ikerd USN
11th Nov 2004, 20:15
So here's where all of you have been spending your hours!:p

Ahoy Imperial Glory followers! I trust the men of the USN have been keeping you busy with questions. We are indeed in search of a new home... IG certainly shows promise.

TRL, nice screenshot! You could not posted a better shot of my crew in action. My dear friend Captain Termite striking his colors after an honorable fight and Captain McDonough receiving a broadside to his gallery! Ah, those glorious days... unfortunately my crew and I would be scarcely able to muster a hard won battle such as that these days.

In any case, to those of you who share our love for the era and the virtual seas, I take pleasure in making your acquaintence.

S!

Captain Ikerd, USN
Commodore of the Fleet
USS President 44
Boston Harbour

WilliamBushUSN
24th Nov 2004, 03:36
In Age of Sail II (AOSII) with practice, you can sail and fight with one ship, with two it starts to get hairy, with three it takes you to your limit and beyond. So fleet actions are done mostly in multiplayer (MP) with up to 10 players each controlling a ship or two. I was wondering how in IG you will control and sail your ships in fleet actions? I heard that MP will be limited from 2-4 players with IG. Does anyone know how you would actually have fleet battles with so few MP players?

If any developers read this, have any of you played around with AOSII, to see what has been out there for sometime naval wise? Will the IG Naval component be more sophisticated than AOSII?

Has there been any thought to allowing a larger MP group play just the naval component of the game?

Any information would be appreciated.

Bush