View Full Version : Thief 4 Plot Suggestions!!!

18th Oct 2004, 09:26
Well, I enjoyed Thief 3 and thought that it was rather an improvement than "dumbing down" of the series.

I especially enjoyed that whenever Garret died there wasn't that painfully loud noise from T1 or T2.

Anyway, now to my main point:

Thief 4

If you've looked around there has been discussion of the next thief game not being set in medieval times (I'm not sure whether that's sarcasm or a joke, but NO OBJECTIONS OR CRITICISM TOWARDS THAT ARE ALLOWED IN THIS THREAD)

For that reason (and others) I thought it would be a good idea to discuss things such as:

-- Setting (when and where)
-- Possible Storyline
-- Features
-- Imrovements
-- Anything else

Here are mine:

--- Setting: in or around the victorian or colonial time period
(or some mildly primitive setting).
--- If the Climbing Gloves were to return it should be possible
to climb over objects (i.e. beams) and around corners (rock
climbers can do it, so why not?)

--- NO MORE MAGIC: I belive that lack of magic/fantasy
would make the game more immersive/gripping and
believable (does anyone want flying cows in their game?)

I can't think of any more now but may add more later.

Could anyone sicky this for a while?
I think it this topic would make a great discussion.

Post away!

18th Oct 2004, 09:49
If you read ALL of the No Medieval thread you would see numerous examples of other Eras and locations mentioned.

With all the threads about TDS and opinions, I, for one don't feel this particularly needs to be "SICKY" (Sticky I presume)

As a discussion it has some small merit IMO. But not value as the Help and bugs and other hard information threads do.

As for "magic", a good part of thief IS magic. Believable is not necessary if you mean believable in a OUR WORLD context.

Fantasy is fantasy. Magic of some sort is usually part of Fantasy.

The world of THIEF is FANTASY. Ergo, magic is not UNBELIEVABLE.

You want real get a handful of Shooters. Battleground, Splinter cell etc.

As for Victorian times, I see no reason for THIEF to move to a different Era, and particulary see no reason for it to move to OUR WORLD or REALITY.

It is what it is. Like The Wizard of Oz, Alice in Wonderland, The Sword of Shanarra, etc. It needs no modernization or REALISTIC modifications to function and to hold the players attention.

All the games so far have been capable of holding the players attention. Witness the countless FM's that the first three games produced. And should the Editor be released for TDS, I'm certain many more will follow in that area.

I find TDS fun to play. Disappointing in the simplification of some of the player actions, and the "Load Zones", and in the lowering of the player skill needed, even on Expert, to complete the game.

But for all that it is not the THIEF we all love and enjoy, it follows the theme well enough and is fun to play.

Alternate more modern scenes, more LIFE AS IT REALLY IS, and other such Tweaks to satisfy those not able to use some imagination and accept the premise as forwarded, leads me to say, "play another game".

I'll stick with Garrett, the Hammerites, the Pagans, Woodsie Lord and all, and have one hell of a good time.

19th Oct 2004, 18:26
I'm with theBlackman, 100%.

19th Oct 2004, 19:56
if they make it in modern, they should place it in the context of something banal, like everyday life we live. perhaps thief 4 could be a mission to steal your dad's car keys so you can take it out for a joyride.. :D

20th Oct 2004, 00:13
Hey! I said I didn't want it to be too modern either. Remember I said it should be a bit "primitive?" I think, however, that a location change would be in order and the reason I thought a thief without magic would be more immersive is because in the first Deus Ex the world was not too much different from ours making it seem like a possibility for things such as augmentation by nanites etc., thus giving the game more of a interesting and immersive stand point.

I don't think it should be modern enough for things such as electricity (remove it altogether), people should act like they would in the time period (I don't think they really have much in any thief game), and instead of things like fire crystals simply having the main character light the arrows.

The way the game relates to reallity gives it another level of immersion. (I don't, however, think the game should be so realistic [unless the player changes the difficulty to realistic] that 1 shot = 1 kill [unless its a head shot])

I don't think that magic is a completely bad idea, but I think the plot should revolve around Garret/ or the main character being a thief and not some epic hero with special abilities. After all, a thief is not supposed to be some hero (he's not a warrior or knight, but more of an assasin or ninja), he's merely one who steals things mostly because he's selfish or for his survival.

I belive the game shouldn't be about things such as making ethical choices, it should be about the profession and story, not trying to get you to like the main character.

Yes, I did mean "STICKY" rather than "SICKY."

PS: blackman, I believe there are enough technical difficulties threads out there, and by "NO CRITICISCM ALLOWED (for the no-medieval theme)" I simply meant that the issue had already been disscussed in another thread and should be argued/discussed there, not here, but that I would welcome a different setting.

If anyone would welcome a different setting (not neccessarily period) they can mention it here.

20th Oct 2004, 00:43

Thief 4


-features (i.e. abilities/weapons/objects, what should stay or go, any features that should be added)

-improvements (i.e. climbing claw, camera, arrows, grenades)
-anything else


-"Stop my game from crashing"(technical difficulties)

There are enough of those threads.

20th Oct 2004, 02:01
The game should be only first person, I'm not interested in third person view and as far as I'm concerned it's harder to play like that.

Make it only for the PC, that way the developers can focus on making in brilliant on one platform instead of good on 2 platforms.

It seems to me that in Thief 1 and 2 you moved more smoothly around, like a master thief might move with ease through the shadows. Thief:DS feels more clunky like your loping around bumping into things.

It should be easier to throw things, seems like a lottery throwing gas bombs etc in enclosed spaces. There should be an aiming system like there is in Splinter Cell, because when you throw something you know where it's going to go. It's not going to explode on the wall 6 inches in front of you.

Garrett should be the character you play, anything else wouldn't be right.

I'm not sure about whether the city should remain in, if it does I would like less zones you have to load between. And it should be possible to travel on the rooftops the whole journey.

To sum up plot ideas: More Hammers, less zombies and scary things.

20th Oct 2004, 08:06
Right! No more monsters (love the idea)!

-Also, there should be more missions like the the one with the "pirate widow," the first two with the "pub" and "emerald/ valuable stone," and the "museum."

As you can see there doesn't really have to be magic/monsters/supernatural things involved for it to be really fun.

-Include more involved faction (hammer, paegan, and freelance) missions.

-Include more houses that can be robbed (which are restocked after each mission).

20th Oct 2004, 09:40
more! more! more!

more gameplay
more randomizations
I particularly liked the rope arrows and hammer machines in Thief.

I like going underground finding lost cities and I particularly liked crashing the bank.

Somehow getting around was abit eroneous in Deadly Shadows. Especially because I liked to pick through as many houses as possible every day for loot.

Perhaps even a random city maker... but it would need clear maps or something->not sure if this could work.

But for the time it took to wander around I should have been doing more quests instead. And there should still have been more quests.

And I don't mind fighting the same guys once in a while.
There is no desperate need to have the bad guys changing in order to keep me involved. Although it was nice, I would rather see more levels.

And why am I required to use XP when you are using a unreal engine? I mean the movement could have been alot smoother.
Somebody got paid at Microsoft?

Maybe pay the head programers less and the level makers more?

Midievel timeline is the best... Who's bright idea?

20th Oct 2004, 15:31
I guess no one liked my car key idea....:(

modern day settings could be cool... guards could have flashlights instead of torches. :D

20th Oct 2004, 15:39
I can't add to TheBlackMan's statement so I'll just give a little rant.

1 - The next person to suggest a game based in WW2, involving terrorists, the American (Or other) army or anything along these lines gets FED TO THE MAN EATING WEETABIK

2 - The next person to call Thief in any way unrealistic gets stabbed in the genitals with a fork.

3 - If Thief 4 is set in 'our world' I will torch the Ion Storm Austin buildings and dance on the ashes.

20th Oct 2004, 16:05
Originally posted by icergb
And why am I required to use XP when you are using a unreal engine? I mean the movement could have been alot smoother.
Somebody got paid at Microsoft?

Why are you not driving a 1930 Model T ford?

Like it or no, XP is the system of the hour. The engine has little or nothing to do with the concept of making a game for current system applications.

Rant if it pleases you but, use a little common sense.

Whatz His Name
20th Oct 2004, 18:06
Personally, I dread the idea of moving away from the established characters and environment. I pretty much like everything about how the series storyline has progressed. As for the topic of his thread...

I would like to see Thief 4 (T4) focus on the little girl who tried to pick-pocket Garrett at the end of TDS. In T4, you would be playing as the little girl and would start off the game as Garrett puts you through your training. The plot would kick in requiring you to assist, rescue, or save Garrett in some complex quest. Bring back the Hammerites, Pagans, and spooks. I think it would fun.

20th Oct 2004, 18:56
I see a clash of old Thief fans VS new. I been playing Thief sense 99. I see alot of dont change anything and I like the change kind of stuff. What Thief 1 and 2 have that TDS dont is MOD support, so all the classic thief fans can continue with there classic missions. But I like old Thief and new. As far as the plot for Thief 4 I say take the best of all three and slap it into Thief 4. With LEVELS, LEVELS, LEVELS. I want max playing time to be around 100 hrs. I know unrealistic but what the hell. I like the loot missions and side quest and being scared out of my mind with the lights out. So all in all I say keep it real, KEEP IT THIEF.

21st Oct 2004, 14:11
Well to tell you the truth There is much more for Garrett to do. Only three people died throw Garrett's eyes. ONE Sheriff Truart. Killed by monkey boy. TWO Lady Victora. Killed by Karras Mech-Guards. Three Keeper Orland. Killed By witchy woman.

Now A mortal cannot Kill a God. There for The trickster God of the pegans Is still Alive. Hes just on a nother plain. If the pegans ever figure out how to get him back. Garrett Will have his hands full.

As for karras did Garrett see him trun to dust. No if he did he would be dead too. There for Karras might still be alive. Thief 2 was about lots of hidden areas. Karras had a hidden camber under his pulpit. Which he got away through.

The old lady is still alive. She still Knows of magic. She is still a threat to garrett.

So by all means there is still alot to be done with the thief Garrett.


Thiefs guild (down winders)
Army against the Baron

As you can see there is still lots of work to be done. Garrett destored his ace in the hole. The keepers could see the future. Now with Garretts deedes done in thief 3. There is no way that Garrett will be able to get help this time around. Maybe its the end this time?

21st Oct 2004, 15:07
Moving to the present will also cause the entire programing team to switch gears and base themselves in the present (or a different era) will draw away from the gameplay which is already needing more refinement not less.

That is something you don't want to be seen supporting; driving downtown and robbing the locals int his day and age.

21st Oct 2004, 16:02
Originally posted by icergb
That is something you don't want to be seen supporting; driving downtown and robbing the locals int his day and age.

ummm Grand Theft Auto anyone? :rolleyes:

21st Oct 2004, 17:17
Originally posted by Galeanww
Well to tell you the truth There is much more for Garrett to do. Only three people died throw Garrett's eyes. ONE Sheriff Truart. Killed by monkey boy. TWO Lady Victora. Killed by Karras Mech-Guards. Three Keeper Orland. Killed By witchy woman.

Now A mortal cannot Kill a God. There for The trickster God of the pegans Is still Alive. Hes just on a nother plain. If the pegans ever figure out how to get him back. Garrett Will have his hands full.

As for karras did Garrett see him trun to dust. No if he did he would be dead too. There for Karras might still be alive. Thief 2 was about lots of hidden areas. Karras had a hidden camber under his pulpit. Which he got away through.

The old lady is still alive. She still Knows of magic. She is still a threat to garrett.

So by all means there is still alot to be done with the thief Garrett.


Thiefs guild (down winders)
Army against the Baron

As you can see there is still lots of work to be done. Garrett destored his ace in the hole. The keepers could see the future. Now with Garretts deedes done in thief 3. There is no way that Garrett will be able to get help this time around. Maybe its the end this time?

1 - He did see Karass die
2 - As Karass was part mechanised I think it'd be kinda hard to avoid faking your own death without ripping out the metal organs you depend on.
3 - 'The old lady' is dead. Dead for good. That was kinda the whole point of her stealing other people's forms to sustain her life.
4 - The Trickster is indeed likely to return if continued, he was banished by the master builder before which lead on to the whole idea of him stealing the gem to get revenge in Thief TDP. Could be an avenue worth exploring I guess.
5 - To be honest I'm kinda tired of this whole faction crap.

I think if there's any future in this series as is it's in the return of the Barron and a little more explination of the world.

24th Oct 2004, 01:13
Here are some feature suggestions:

- Ability to hang from and stand on chandelier

- Ability to knock pople unconscious (or kill with dagger) by falling/ dropping down/ jumping (from a higher elevation) on them.
( I have wanted to do that numerous times in the Clock Tower in T:DS)

24th Oct 2004, 06:09

Dangit keep the magic
I though Garret was going to get limited invisability or speed...

But it is pretty hard to black-jack a skeleten; so I think ease up on monsters. <Unless they are the hammer type:)>

I do Love the chair and object like (throwing/moving) effects. (Which is probably why they went with the new unreal engine for XP<?>)

I digress; I like skeletens too:D

Squeaky Yugi
26th Oct 2004, 01:29
Maybe they'll make Garret work with the Kurshorks.

After all The Keepers have lost everyone who leads them, and the glyphs are gone, which means no more magic

As for the Hammers and Pagans

I sure hope they come up with something, because I really am stumped for ideasDyan of the Pagans is dead, but Drept is still alive. Is it possible that Garret will help Drept get reunited with Lauryl?

In my opinion, he was out of character, helping out a weird ghost girl instead of just getting his loot and leaving

Also, in my opinion, monster should stay as long as there are sufficient spellcasters in every part.

26th Oct 2004, 16:32
well she WAS a dead ringer for soon-to-be interpreter Gamall. that must have piqued his curiosity at least

31st Oct 2004, 11:55
Just finished the game :mad:
When I was told to place the artifacts across the towns, I took my sweet *^%&ing time why? Because I knew the end was coming.
I loved the fights with the watch and the old lady but...

The end was freakin terrible

It should have been twice as long.

In my gut... terrible ending
(The art was excellent.)

Should have been at least twice as long.

Probably the most anoying thing was I was getting new tips just before the end of the game.
thanks for the tips
maybe I can use them
:rolleyes: :eek:

31st Oct 2004, 16:52
The only tihng I expect in T4 (base on TDS) is to enhance the 'free mode' in the town when that's no mission.

31st Oct 2004, 22:04
I'm with both Tengu and whatz his name on this one. The choice of the kid that tried to rob Garret is excellent, if you ask me. In that way you also get rid of the 'master thief' label. At least I was not even close to an expert throughout the game. It felt pretty awkward not to live up to the expectations, if it's even possible.

By playing as the kid (grown a bit older), it can take place in a more modern setting (1500's?) and you can make a complete fool of yourself in stealing cause nobody expects otherwise, its determined by how skilled the player gets.

So as Tengu pointed out, a new setting and a new character could maybe be interesting. Then if they actually make another game in the series is perhaps not very likely, but I certainly hope so.

Tin Star
6th Nov 2004, 12:24
Thief would not be Thief if they take away the setting it is in now and made it a more modern setting then it is in now.I for one don't think they need to add or even should have added anything to the game from what they had in Thief II,don't get me wrong Thief III was a good game but it had lost a lot from what it was in the first two games.

If they want to start a whole new game about being a Thief then let them,but it should not be called Thief but called something else like it takes a Thief or something like that.

I feel that if they make another game about Thief and Garrett that they should get back to the way the game was played in the first two games,anything else is just not going to be as much fun to play over and over again.

Tin Star

Squeaky Yugi
7th Nov 2004, 18:23
The problems I have with modern settings are that:

1) Everyone will have a gun for a weapon. Bullets are near impossible to see or dodge
2) Guns would make way too much noise to be useful to a thief
3) Water Arrows would be less useful because lightbulbs don't do out with water (Breaking them isn't very thief like)

Also, I'd like this to be talked about in the next installment:

The pagans are preparing for war

8th Nov 2004, 19:03
I've done a lot of *****ing so I'll finally do something constructive and think up something I would like to see, this could take a while...


Well, for a start I'd like to see an original concept for a plot. We've had the factions, that's all lovely but we're still not too clear about the world beyond this big city and the pagan forrests, the Barron or the war he's off fighting.

I'd also like to see more traps and inginuity and less of a 'Garrett dragged into the scenario by insistant freinds' approach. I'd say... the Barron, say, returns from this war having looted, raided and pillaged to his heart's content and Garrett wants in on the goods. If I was him I'd be somewhat sick of being lead in to everything and poked and jabbed from all angles so once again he goes solo after training his protege. One job leads to another and the targets get bigger and more diverse for two or three levels like in Thief 1 and 2.

Whilst creeping around the well trapped and guarded vaults of the wealthy Garrett comes across much information that can be used for blackmailing the higher up members of the aristocracy when he stumbles upon certain documents detailing what his replacement, (Still in the keepers.) Has been getting up to. Frankly it'd be boring if the kid turned into a Garrett clone or became a mundane keeper and it seems to be the first anyone has thought along those lines... anyways, stupid but grealy skilled lil' keeper trainee kid is providing glyphs and secrets to a secret high level resistance opposed to the Barron's war. Garrett goes to confront said child and is confronted with a very agressive response, the keeper kid chases Garrett through the shadows in an attempt to eliminate him. That'd be a seriously cool level, escaping from another shadowcrawler whilst not drawing too much attention to yourself... and not like the enforcers, an *actual* creature of stealth and beyond-monkey like inteligence who has a few powers at his disposal and why not even the odd invisibility potion? You get the idea.

Anyway, the full extent of this kid's involvement becomes clear and the damage he is about to unleash would not only totally devostate the city but would mean Garrett was hunted down like a dog so Garrett is forced to step in once more and bring the ugly scenario to a halt.

If not a terribly specific idea it's at least the most original suggested IMO and offers a real change of pace without changing the setting.

It breaks the somewhat naive side of Garrett that has been overdone and maybe offers a side of him that's a little more mortal at the same time. I'd really like to see his character in more depth.

9th Nov 2004, 05:14
I've been a long time Thief fan, and I can't possibly imagine a Thief game in a different world with different characters. Garrett makes the Thief series and if Ion Storm goes through with making this little girl the new Thief, as the ending clearly implies, then I for one will be extremely upset and will not buy it. If I want to play a girl who kicks ass and shows how women can be just as bad assed as any many then I'd play Tomb Raider.

The only possible solution I can see to fix this extremely disappointing ending (why do they show Garrett's face SO much, it completely takes away the mysteriousness from him, Thief 2 showed it only once in full view if I recall) would be in my view to make Garrett raise the girl as an apprentice, then have her turn bad and become his adversary, with skills equal to his own (aka a challenging opponent for the plot line).

I also really hope if they keep the city idea as it is in Thief 3, that they make it at least a little more new and refreshing, maybe with different doors being available on different days (that's what I assumed would happen when I first played the game and saw all the doors you can't enter).

Factions should without a doubt BE ELIMANTED altogether. The Hammers DESPISE Garrett, for two previous games he has been nothing but a thorn in their side, all of a sudden them being greeting him as an ally and brother because he killed a few street bugs is absolutely ABUSRD. The Pagans at least you've had an alliance with previously, but all the same, stealing one of their most valued treasures, and if you so choose, slaughtering all the Pagans you find in that level, most definiately would preclude any possibility of an alliance again.

No way no how should Thief 4 have factions, and if Garrett is replaced as the main character and/or the setting is changed, may the Builder have mercy on the souls of those Taffers at Ion Storm! lol

On a brighter note, the Barron finally returning is a great idea, and making the game a little more polished and actually a challenge would be good too.

Also, give us back the sword! Even though a lot of people didn't like fighting as it is contrary to the persona of a Thief, removing the most effective fighting weapon like the sword totally changes the format of the game. In the first two, you could always use it as a last resort if you were cornered, or if you just felt like a blood bath tonight. You also could fight effectively with it if you were skilled enough, however I never once used the wimpy dagger because it simply is completely ineffective in combat. Having an effective combat system allows the enemies to be harder, and non-human/non-blackjackable enemies to be present as well (burricks, those freaky scorpion-men in the Lost City).

Rope arrows, larger areas, just for PC so that Quality is not sacrificed for MONEY. Please make the game more difficult too... This was soooooo easy, I didn't use a single item/arrow/anything except for the flashbombs to kill undead throughout the entire game. There doesn't always need to be a solution to stay hidden from the guards or dose the torches... In the first two, there were plenty of corridors with lights you can't turn off, that were well lit enough you couldnt hide anywhere and it was a bit more of a challenge to get through. It just seems this game has an obvious solution for every single problem you face in it.

Oh and just to touch on that one person who said he didn't feel he fufilled being a master-thief because he was bumbling around... So were all of us when we first played Thief 1, which is MUCH harder. Try playing the first two and you'll soon learn just how to be a master-thief.

Sorry if I'm raving a little, but I really want another Thief game which will continue this great series.

9th Nov 2004, 22:49
Well that person was me, drspock1. ;) You're right about the other games being harder though... Playing on hardest in this game is like playing the easiest difficulty level possible in Thief 2 -with cheats, or that is what I think. But I find the AI about 10 times better in this game plus the environment, you have to agree is much better than some modified UnrealEd maps.

It's not exactly a secret that Garret speaks to the girl similiar to when he got caught by the keeper in Thief1 somewhat summarize the series. Much speaks for someone else taking on the 'quest'. But maybe the developers have something in mind already and is giving a hint of what will happen in the next part, I do hope so!

I can't agree they should remove the faction completely since I don't seem to remember Garret ever being caught by either Hammerites or Pagans. When he stole the relics it was the first time they became aware of him, or am I wrong? He don't exactly 'help' them by doing favors, the funny thing is what he does for the hammarites is not in favor for the pagans and the contrary. So in the end he hasn't done them any favors at all, by helping both sides.:D

In any case, I don't want Garret to 'turn bad' or anything. That wouldn't make much sense, he's after all helped Lauryl getting released from the cradle and so on. Can't picture him as an evil character, in need of therapy for cleptomania maybe, but not anything near a bad person.

10th Nov 2004, 10:17
Did anyone read the review where one the main designers was talking about the settings of Thief becoming borring and outdated. Where as for the next Thief he said that it was time to work on something fresh dated more to the present era?

He was going on and on... That is what brought me to this board. I am curious to know if he still thinks this way, having read any of these discussions.


If anyone can find that article he wrote for a gaming web site. Please paste a link here.(Not sure if it wound up in a magazine.)

You all would be suprised I think! He has quite an opinion on how things should be for Thief's to come.

Of course then again maybe he was trying to create outrage and debate.

10th Nov 2004, 17:40
That'd be Warren Spector, who seems to have done a massive 'George Lucas' over the past three or four years.

15th Nov 2004, 06:34
thought i would throw this in

ok we fought the pagans - trickster

we fought the keepers - (hag but not really the keepers but we fought them yes?)

we fought the mechinists - Karrack

the mechs where not the hammerites, they worshiped the builder yes but they where a perverted version and they where not even flesh

we helped the hammers against the pagans, we helped the hammers/pagans against the mechinists

we helped the keepers against the keepers.

ok so time to take on The Great Builder himself, the one with the hammer to strike his wrath on Garret.

i dont know how you could work off this, but i see alot of hammerite action

btw i played all the thief games, and we should either work with garret, or the girl... but i would miss garrets speech ingame.

magic was abused in thief 3, every pagan had magic in the streets! stupid, and hammers had magic! stupid as well, only gaurds should walk the streets hammer/pagan gaurds...

mages should be in their special spots, or rare areas or rare sights in the streets (side quest tower in a street maybe)

some special things like in thief 2, where you read this transcript and zombies appeared (keep the zombies even thouh we hate them we love them)

update the city more, make it more indepth large markets, churches to enter, grave yards and large parks (with a creapy foggy spot and you know who lurks there but the folk in the park say that place is haunted)

bring back the vine/rope arrows and do away with the gloves

and more water in the city, water was our friend in thief 2, we used it as a quick get away and rode the rapids all over, which also means bring us a large sewer system, and also the thiefs highway the roofs.

bring back the large spiders we DESPISED them but i loved them also

and the barracks have got to appear again, even though i hated them

and you got to keep the anceint cities/races did 2 have a anceint race? i cannot remember.

ok enjoy

23rd Nov 2004, 03:21
Just to re-iterate what many have said before, I want to make it absolutely clear that I will oppose Thief going non-medieval at every step. To do so would be to rob it of its identity, fan following, uniqueness - isn't there a certain irony there? The game about stealing gets stolen from.

Yes. Anyway. Now that we all understand each other on that issue... :cool:

Now that Garrett (henceforth referred to as Gazza ^_^) has been revealed as the one True Keeper... I think Thief 4 could be the true conclusion to the series. Thief DS was only a primer. Thief 4 could be the big finale. I'm talking the apocalypse of the city, the end of everything.

Something along the lines of the final confrontation between the Trickster and the Builder himself - which would ultimately result in the destruction of the city and everyone in it.
Maybe, also, somewhere there could be an underground cell of "non-conformist" Keepers whose books somehow survived the mysterious erasure at the activation of the final glyph.

I'm thinking the story would open with Gazza not knowing about his being the true keeper, he is simply going about his more-or-less normal thief's trade, but as always the Keeper underground group begins sending him cryptic signals telling him to realize who he is. The girl would also fit in somehow - maybe she could be like Gazza's contact on the streets, who lives in the poorer parts of town and mingles with the lower class of society and brings him back information on possible heists etc.

Meanwhile, both the Pagans and the Hammerites are massing in force for... a massive final battle? The creation of some diabolic project? I don't know. Get back to you on that one.

23rd Nov 2004, 19:28
An interesting plot would be a new cult that everyone is against and they may have to join forces to fight. But they need Garret to go in there and do his thing in order for them to succeed or something. The girl who is an adult now, knows something about this new cult, and no one is sure if she's working for their side or Garrets, it should be a mystery till the end.

This new cult wants to convert the Keeper, Pagans etc to their beliefs and will stop at nothing to accomplish this. They believe in a God that wants to imprison everyones minds to do it's bidding. I was thinking perhaps the Enforcers would be this new cult and have turned against the Keepers. It would give us more background on these assasins.

27th Nov 2004, 21:59
Come to think of it Lia67, the idea of a new cult/faction is quite a good one.
The only issue would be the conceptual aspect of Thief - at present you have two opposed extremes (The Pagans and Hammers) and the Keepers attempting to maintain balance. But maybe this new cult could be a replacement for the Keepers - at first they appear to be trying to keep the balance but it soon becomes clear they have a shadowy agenda of their own.

The "mind imprisonment" god idea sounds quite cool also. But if the girl were to become an adult, then that would mean Garrett would be a hunchbacked wrinkled old thing in his forties ^_^ which makes me squirm a little at the thought. I'd rather not see him do the Indiana Jones senior-citizen-action hero thing.

27th Nov 2004, 22:57
Haha, yeah, the poor bastard is getting a bit old now, isn't he? Maybe changing to a new "hero" would be a good change. I know a lot of the old Thief players are afraid of change, but dont immediately oppose it. You can learn to love a new character as you learned to love Garrett.

29th Nov 2004, 16:27
You both have a good point. But if they go only 7 years into the future and the girl is let' say 17, Garrett would'nt be that much older. maybe late 30's. He's kept in shape and is more experienced in his trade.

I don't know how I would feel about changing Garretts character, he's sort of grown on us. :)

10th Dec 2004, 04:03
I just typed up a really good plot and idea but I choose New thread! Just go to the Thread titled "An idea..." I have some good ideas!!!!!!

10th Dec 2004, 20:01
so, i've read trough all the posts here and somehow the idea for a new plot for Thief4 popped out of nowhere. now, the idea is this:

at the beginning of Thief-TDP we see pitiful lil' Garrett trying to survive in the City, he mets the keeper and so on. then we've got the training level, showing us around the keepers' ground. however after finishing the training level he (Garrett) mentiones something 'bout his own point of view (can't remember what he said exaclty, i've played the game 4 years ago O.o) which leads us to our very first mission: Lord Bufford's manor.
but i am sure as hell that there lie years between his training and the first mission we are thrown in.
so, what about a flashback, some fun with Garrett being in his early or mid-twenties? of course he won't be as good as he is now, thus he'll get caught by the guards once in a while and like in Thief-DS he'll use his cleverness to escape from the jail, etc etc.
more action in the city, burglaries, using the path of the thiefs (roofs), maybe even a thief-guild which he wants to join. also his first encounters with the Hammers and the Pagans. and, which is kind of interesting, we'll watch Garrett's skills develope (thanks to the Keepers’ training), how he becomes a professional, how he increases through the missions.
i can imagine Garrett being a show-off and a hothead, contrary to the cool reserved person with the cool comments he'll become, a character trait that’s not always good for his own interests.
besides if it really would play in the past we'll have back the ropearrows etc., also the ‘mediaeval times’, hopefully. and no new girl who'll best Garrett (mwahahaha!)
as far as the issue about an underground sect is concerned, young Garrett maybe stumbles across them and gets himself into a lot of trouble. that'd be fun!

yeah, well, that's it. what do you think? could that work?

Ian Flaer
14th Dec 2004, 15:26
please no prequel. I'm sick to death of all the movies and books and TV shows that just have to delve into the prehistory of a story instead of developing it further. Stories need to move forward to avoid stagnation. It's not that Lucca doesn't have some good ideas but rather that it's a dangerous one. I think Lucca's idea would be better applied to a game based on the little girl apprenticed to Garrett. I love Garrett as a character and would miss him but I don't want another Garrett story badly enough to want to dig into his partially developed past. that way lies madness.

anyway just my $0.02 no offense intended

15th Dec 2004, 17:05
Originally posted by Ian Flaer
please no prequel. I'm sick to death of all the movies and books and TV shows that just have to delve into the prehistory of a story instead of developing it further. Stories need to move forward to avoid stagnation. It's not that Lucca doesn't have some good ideas but rather that it's a dangerous one. I think Lucca's idea would be better applied to a game based on the little girl apprenticed to Garrett. I love Garrett as a character and would miss him but I don't want another Garrett story badly enough to want to dig into his partially developed past. that way lies madness.

anyway just my $0.02 no offense intended

That's a very good point indeed. But I still would prefer a prequel to Thief instead of a second Lara Craft [<- exaggeration] If Eidos decides to let the girl takes over Garrett's position.... *ack!*
I do love Garrett's character as well, no question about that, and if he still is the maincharacter there will be no complaints from my person. I'm alright with that. A developing story would be lovely, yes, that's preferable to a prequel however I still fear the girl's importance. But maybe this is just my paranoia...

Ian Flaer
15th Dec 2004, 18:02
No no, I think your paranoia is well founded. Now just because they do a female character doesn't mean she has to be another Lara Croft (though the danger is certainly there). there have been some people talking about having her as an adversary when she betrays Garrett and I think that would be the best use for her. I mean it would be challenging because she would have the same skills as you. one of the freakiest things about the Enforcers in T3 is that they stand still and wait for you and they chatter like every other creature out there which makes them quiet and if you aren't careful you can walk right into one. it isn't until they walk around that they make noise. well the Girl, would be as quiet as you, can turn invisible in good shadows like you and has the same or similar weapon load out. I've always wished the AI could climb ladders or croutch to follow you under that porch and stuff like that, it's so much more realistic. also having the girl betray Garrett follows the theme of the story after all it was Garrett who betrayed the Keepers by walking out on them (they see it that way at least).
some people have also suggested that they be partners and you could play the game as either one of them having different missions and/or objectives depending on who you play as. I think this could be pretty cool too but I think the first option is more in line with the theme

16th Dec 2004, 00:50
Plot for T4?

1) Thief 1 was the ascendency of the Pagans - Garret brought balance

2) Thief 2 was the ascendency of the Mechanists - a Hammerite Facton. Garret brought balance

3) Thief DS was the ascendency of the Hag - an ancient keeper. Garret brought balance, including the reduction in strength of the keepers

Who is to rise to upset the balance of power?


The keeper machine has been shattered, their power scattered. Few have maintained the skills to work in the shadows, as they had become too dependant upon the glyphs.

Without the keeper tinkering for control, the City surges in new growth and dangers. The Pagans have been weakened, the Hammerites have been weakened, the keepers have been weakened, the City itself will surge.

16th Dec 2004, 12:57
What if they rereleased the older Thief 1 & 2 levels but with the new engine? Or even tweaked some of the absolutely superb fan missions such as Lorgans Web and Calendras Cistern?

Ian Flaer
16th Dec 2004, 14:23
I really doubt they'd ever officially release any fan missions. not because they aren't good enough because some of the FM's are better than the originals, but there would be legal nightmares. who would rise up? the city, yes I agree. more specifically the underworld of the city. I would say it's time the crooks started a mofia-like organised crime. at first, they would want Garrett to join them but, of course, he would refuse. thus would start the war between Garrett and the mob. now we have the young girl character, maybe she would be all for joining the mob and eventully does so, betraying Garrett. the Mob has their "Garrett" in the girl and decides they need to get rid of Garrett. the plot would start out revolving around Garrett trying to convince the girl not to join the mob and you'd have some missions to take her on to show her that they are no good, but all she cares about is the massive wealth they have. then would be a mission or two chasing her down trying to stop her meeting with the mob bosses, and maybe Garrett hearing a conversation about how they intend to exploit her. then you'd need to move on to trying to foil her missions. Hey! that'd be cool a thief trying to stop a thief. finally things get way out of hand Garrett uncovers a mob plot to steal some ancient artifacts that they'd use to take over the city somehow and, being Garrett, he has to be the one to stop them, only little girl is in the way. so take her down, or return her to sanity, and then take down the mob bosses before they can get their toys all in one room. yeah that'd be pretty cool.

10th Jan 2005, 14:09
The Plot:

After the fall of the keepers. The master thief semi-retired. A good friend comes to him for help. Asking him to steal something very very valuable from a Sailboat in the dock. When on the ship the master thief got the item but was knock out by a trap with an unfamiliar design

When he awakes, the boat already halfway across the ocean. The boat actually belongs to a royal family with a princess on board. Her kingdom was in trouble. Their enemy had stolen something magical and powerful from her. Even her bother was killed (She got the news when she was in Garret's city and that's why they are in such a hurry to return)The princess knowing Garret is a master thief, ask him to help her. He must go to the enemy's kingdom and find clues and steal the object.

The new game shall offer new location, new faces and new weapons.

10th Jan 2005, 14:12
sounds a bit like the level before return to the lost city from Thief 2 where Garett gets stuck on a submarine.

10th Jan 2005, 15:59
The Trickster=pagans

so who's nexts? the barron?he becomes "evil" or something like that, and garrett has to stop him from doing "evil" things...:rolleyes:

11th Jan 2005, 01:18
Everyone seems to be forgetting at least 1 other group that I can think of off hand. It was introduced in a single mission in Thief Gold, with no other reference other than a brief note found in Thief 2. Some may not have actually read that note, as not everyone runs around reading every book and scroll like I do. That group, of course, is the Mages. They aren't Pagans, and they deffinately aren't Hammerites.

In a note I found in T2, don't remember the exact location or content despite having just replayed the entire game, it is made clear that they know who broke into their fortress (citadel, whatever.) Don't you think that they might want to have words with Garrett?

They also have their own splinter group as well, mentioned both in TG and T2, the Necromancers. Now there is a group just ripe for exploitation into a T4 story line. It is also the explanation for why zombies are everywhere as well.

As for everything else. I wouldn't mind T4 being about the young girl, it would make a nice change, and may actually be necessary depending on the availability of Garrett's voice actor. Garrett could become just a shadowy figure in the background, surrounded by myth, protected by legend, and not take a direct role in the game any more. There BETER be plenty of references during the game about him though. Guards saying things like, "who do you think you are, Garrett? You're nowhere near that good, I'll catch you yet." Or something along those lines. Maybe the girl has a bit of hero-worship towards Garrett, and some missions are strictly for protecting his "good name."

Along with many others, if you change the setting too much, it just won't be Thief any more. I sort of like the mix of magic and mechanics of the Thief world. Also, the mechanical lights add a level of difficulty to the game that is completely understandable. A candle that doesn't go out when you throw water on it does not make much sense, even in a fantasy world. But a mechanical light that is resistant to water is perfectly understandable (though if you've ever gotten a hot light bulb wet by accident you wouldn't be so sure of that viewpoint - wear gogles if you decide to experiment though, and have plenty of bandages handy, the results can be rather explosive.)

As much as I hate to admit it, burricks are a part of that Thief world, and though I hated them, I did miss them in T2 (and 3.) Also, the undead, IMHO, are integral as well, especially if the Mages make an appearance in T4 (more specifically, the Necromancers.) Heck, the Lich referenced in "Life of the Party" may become the primary bad guy in T4. Sure, in T2 it "looked" like the guy actually failed in his attempt (the skeleton on the bed,) but are we completely sure of that? If he is, then wouldn't it follow that such a powerful necromancer would have legions of undead servants? Besides, I still shiver when I think about the Cathedral missions in T1, I play those missions over every now and then just to recapture that shivery feeling. When I faced my first zombie, I about crawle out of my skin. It may sound unpleasant, but I wouldn't trade those experiences for the world.

Personally, I'd like to keep the climbing gloves, just expand their use a bit. Climbing around corners (both interior and exterior,) is a deffinate must, IMHO. Though I also feel that the rope arrows should make a come back as well. A good level designer can prevent either one from making the game too easy, and it just expands on the options available to the player. Also, make them usefull as well. By the time you get the gloves in T3, you don't really need them for anything any more. The only times I ever used them was just playing around (except in one brief instance that I won't go into for fear of spoiling the plot for others.) Heck, I think you should have started the game with them in the first place.

While I don't like multi-zone environments, it seems that more thought could have been put into hiding the bloody things. The swirly blue smoke effect practically destroyed the emersiveness of the game for me. While I understand it didn't have as great an impact for others, it deffinately did for me. I don't believe I'm the only one that feels this way either. As I've pointed out in the distant past, just making it invisible and then putting appropriate bends in a corridor could have accomplished this with ease. Or even giving the player the option to make it visible or not. The zones themselves should also have been larger. Just looking at some of the missions in T3, it is obvious that city zones could have easily been larger than they were.

Make the city itself more complete. The city in T3 struck me as extremely basic and simple. Almost as if the designers just slapped them together to give the player a way of getting from one mission to another. It is a great innovation, and I do like it, but it needs to be expanded and made more complex. I also like the multiple fences and equipment dealers. I would like more complexity there as well. Make different fences offer different prices for the same materiels, etc... One would specialize in gems and would offer the best prices, except in rare cases where a specific fence is looking for a specific unique gem, or whatever. Also, in T3, the loot to equipment cost ratio was totally imballanced. By then end, I had money running out my ears, and nothing to spend it on. If I ever play the game again, I know that I don't ever have to worry about conservation, as I could spend my equipment recklessly and still have plenty of funds to buy more. On that note, it also doesn't make much sense to me that when I stole coins, I had to sell them to a vendor. It seems to me that money is money, I'd just dump the belt pouch into my funds an move on.

Bring both versions of the Thieves' highway back. FYI - Thieves' Highway has referred to both high and low. Both the rooftops and the sewers. I'm still wondering how, between T2 and T3, Garrett totally lost the ability to swim and/or hold his breath. I absolutely addored the first part of "Life of the Party," because of this. It wasn't so prevalent in "Ambush!" or "Trace the Courier," but it was there as well. I will admit, that that first part is the main reason I play the "Party" mission over and over. I'm not really that big a fan of Angelwatch itself, but the first part...

Finally, add some more flavor to the game. Give the people in the street reasons for being there. Put people into houses that they own, and have them doing homely activities. In T3, there were very few instances where the people in the city had a reason for being there. There is one guy in South Quarter that looks like a street vendor, and there's the 2 thieves casing the Hamerite temple in Stonemarket. The 2 thieves were also right out in the open where anyone could see them, which just doesn't seem very smart to me. Also, get rid of the "Guards attack on site" aspect of it. In T4, the character in question (be it Garrett or the girl,) should be ignored by the guards unless they do something. Heck you could get very complex here if you want, when a person realizes that they lost their belt pouch, they could run to a guard and put the guard on "alert" for a while. Heck, he could start walking up to random people and searching them. If you run or if you still have the pouch (you haven't stashed it or something,) then things get interesting. I could go on (and on and on,) but I'll stop it here for now.

13th Jan 2005, 19:06
I think a good plot line (involving the girl) would be to have the baron conquered in the perpetual wars, the victorious foreign armies occupt the city (making Garret's life harder). The girl, wishing to outdo her tutor joins the resistance, but is captured and spills her guts to the new occupying forces. Garrett has the choice to save his apprentice or continue "keeping the balance" as he is the one true keeper...