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Happyslave
14th Oct 2004, 19:41
Based on the trailers I've seen (all right, only one, but you get the point) I must conclude that I absolutely don't like the the colours of the Armies in this game.
And then especially the colours of the Russian Army. The black-YELLOW-white flag is -according to me- absolutely disgusting. I thought the Russian flag had other colours, and in any case, I don't like it

I'd like to choose -at least- the colours of the uniforms of the nation I'd be playing with. I mean, the uniforms of the Russians're supposed to be green
At least in my imagination, prolly because I've read the "Age of Miracles"serie but that doesn't matter

So in any case, I'd like to see an option in the game to decide the colours of your nation (and possibly your flag, but that might be destroying the "historically correctness")
And second, I want the Russian flag altered!

Anybody here (dis)agrees?

The_Russian_Rocket
14th Oct 2004, 20:00
Umm, ME for one. This isn't a fashion show, pal. Why can't you stay historicity accurate? Why mist you change history so armies "look better"?

Czar
15th Oct 2004, 00:53
Here we go...

The "Historic" crowd vs. the "It's a game" crowd. :rolleyes:

Anyway, surely you can mod this game?

sick
15th Oct 2004, 09:18
Pyro Studios never released any modding tools for their games. I really can't understand this decision, their games would have a much longer lifetime then. I hope they don't make this mistake again.

hmgsone
15th Oct 2004, 16:28
Ok, now my chance to get tossed off the forum.

In this case I don't think its a matter of history vs game. What seems to have happened is that IG's visuals have been deliberatly altered for ease of play to the extent that often what is portrayed literally did not exist during the period, not 1799, not 1806, 1812, 1815, Hell, not even in Hollywood.

I've been doing miniature wargaming in this period for over 25 years, so I've good a pretty good handle (and library) on this issue. When I can not ID a unit from a screenshot by either flag, weaponry or uniform, there have been some serious alterations made. Yet here is Eidos own tagline:

HISTORICALLY ACCURATE UNITS AND WEAPONRY: Faithfully reproduced units, which differ from Empire to Empire, reflect the color and splendor of the era. Authentic period formations and maneuvers provide great tactical depth

Now before pounding on IG too much, let's think about this. This period was known for armies with intricate and varied uniforms, flags as well, that changed frequently. Two examples. While Russian infantry did carry flags of a single pattern, the color scheme changed from regiment to regiment, while pattern and color scheme changed overall at least four times. Likewise the Bavarian army started out in white uniforms, but they later changed to light blue. To expect any design team to develope the code that would follow each change of attire or flag to me is totally unrealisitc. Its not cost effective and would indeed confuse all but the most dedicated Grognard. The Talonsoft solution was to pick a single authentinc uniform and flag to stand for the entire game. Thus the Russians only carry one flag at Borodino, but it was really a flag that was present at the battle.

IG seems to have taken a different path in a couple of ways. Where they came up with some of the flags is beyond me as they simply did not exist. Likewise while the uniform style displayed seems OK, they seem to have standardized on a single color for each nation - blue for France, red for Britian and so on, though reality was far different. Thus in one screen shot we see French dragoons (I think) in blue, when reality was a dark green unform throughout the period. Likewise the British artillery pictured SHOULD display single trail cannon on blue-grey carriages with gunners in the dark blue uniform they had worn since 1716. As depicted they are Danish.

Given that there was little variation in these uniforms from 1789 to 1815, I don't think this is a research, $$$ or programming issue. It shouldn't cost any more to make French dragoon uniforms green vice blue. From some other posts in the forum my impression is this might be a deliberate policy to "simplify" the game a bit so as not to confuse the customer.

So whaddaya think? Below is a set of real Russian 1797 pattern infantry flags, four different regiments. If IG picked one and carried it throughout the game to stand for the Holy Warriors of the Czar, vice the black-yellow-white did not exist tricolor they seem to be using (well, at least I think its Russian), would it baffle people?

I write for wargamer.com and I am really interested in you opinion. Thanks.

Regards, Bill G


http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flags/ru1797_l.gif

Lonewulf44
15th Oct 2004, 16:50
I guess that I'll agree if your trying to explain why they have not taken the 105% historically accurate approach over a '1 country, 1 color' approach. Now, I think your right when you mention that certain things could be applied such as the French dragoon colors, but I don’t want to see, or at least don’t mind not seeing every regimental color scheme. I think that like almost every factor there has to be a good balance involved to accurately reveal a countries singularity to the player, while also keeping with the historical ties of the game. I'll leave it up to Pyro to fine tuning that balance, so that I'm not seeing just a red blob of troops for the Brits, and I'm also not caught wondering ' Are those my troops???' .


On a side note, I see where you writer for the wargammer.com. How does one go about trying to manage this for themselves? I have a lot of respect for the site, and always wondering how hard it would be to offer writing assistance for them.

Lastly, what kind of scale do you use with your miniatures?

Long Live Prussia!

Willmore
15th Oct 2004, 17:58
Great post, hmgsone, I've brought up the Russian flag issue before and have yet to receive a conclusiove reply on what they will do with it, my solution was simple - use the civil flag of the time - the current Russian tricolor. Which if you thought about it would be that hard.

Regarding the uniforms, I fully agree - they must have at least an air of authenticity, while the different colours might confuse some players, there are ways of solving this - creating a slight greenish auro around your players, blueish around allies and redish around enemies. Nothing huge, but just perceptible enough to be able to distinguish quickly and react accordingly.

hmgsone
16th Oct 2004, 18:00
In answer to several questions, I got picked up at wargamer.com (I recently wrote the Gettysburg 2004 Minicon article) out of a combination of pure dumb luck, being in the right place at the right time and their needing a miniatures guy on staff as they wish to expand coverage in that direction. Therefore I'm the first and new RMF (resident miniatures flunky). They have tons of PC related staff.

As regards the Russian flag issue, most games I'm familiar with seem to have adopted the 1813 pattern green and white infantry flag as the common standard. All new regiments raised at this time got this flag and it was eventually made standard throughout the entire army. The civil flag is legit, but to the best of my knowledge was never carried on the battlefield.

Regards,

// Bill /

Wilbur E. Gray
Colonel, US Army (Ret)

RnLSarge
25th Oct 2004, 06:08
Hello i have become very interested in this era and not to mention in this game. As far as my research is concerned about the tri-colour flag most of you are talking about. This is the closest thing i could come up with:

http://vexilolognet.hyperlink.cz/rakousko-uhersko.gif
more info can be found on this by clicking here (http://vexilolognet.hyperlink.cz/Austro-Hungary.htm)

It is the flag of Austro-Hungary.. of course its not a tri-colour flag as you can see since it is missing the white stripe but nevertheless it is the closest i can come up within this time period. I also agree with hmgsone's information... i can not find one single trace of such tri-coloured flag in the russian service. And i do agree to changing it possibly to what hmgsone has said. For more information regarding the flags he has put forth please visit this link: (which i believe is the link he pulled those pictures from)

click here (http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/russindx.htm)

and for other flags in the same Napoleonic War period:

click here (http://www.warflag.com/napflags/html/flags.htm)

Or perhaps the flag of Imperial Russia before the Russian Revolution of 1905 as shown here:

http://www.hampshireflag.co.uk/world-flags/images/r/ru_tzl.gif

and yes i know this is the flag of Tzar in 1858 but the center yellow circle of the regimental flags portrays this eagle and this colour so perhaps it could be a middle ground for historians and game makers and of course whether or not it was actually carried onto the battlefield or even used in this time period or perhaps something similar is beyond me, I just thought i would bring up this information.

As far as uniforms are concerned i would say it would be extra time as far as texturing is concerned but i do agree that authetic colours must be used. And the time put into correcting this would not go unlooked. As far as confusing the normal everday, non-researching gamer, i would say that of course possibly like someone said putting a green glow or some colour around your men or perhaps a small circle beneth their feet. Something to make them stand out if selected between the enemies troops if confusion may occur. But i stress for you not to put any such glow or circle regarding your enemies... all you need to know is who your men are, if you select your men in battle and of course not all have that glow or circle then of course they are the enemy.. common sense would tell the player this. So i think no identification is require... or perhaps (do not take this to me comparing Imperial Glory to Rome: Total War) but just maybe you could do something like them... not only having the circle below the feet but maybe a small flag over their heads (not over every soldiers head but over every other, or every 5th soldiers etc), Again please do not take the comment as me regarding that Imperial Glory is taking after Rome:Total War in the RTS business... because i believe they are not... in fact i believe that IG will be better then RTW... not only better fighting but more extensive battles such as sea battles which in RTW is not even possible.

As to the Devs i still say youre doing a great job, just small crits like these are a way to help you guys out with fine tuning this game to be one of thee best out there.

Willmore
25th Oct 2004, 08:09
Tricolor: http://flagspot.net/flags/ru~1697.html

Scroll to the bottom - the Russian tricolor, as it exists right now was the civil ensign in those days.


Black-Yellow-White: http://flagspot.net/flags/ru_bow.html

As you can see the flag was not used until 1858, and before then was not in any way even connected to Russia, as it was adopted in design from the Austrian Empire.


Now, if you can't use either, as the connection is mediocre at best, use the Tzar's flag - http://flagspot.net/flags/ru_tzar.html

That however would look a bit too similar to the Austrian flag.

Still it's better than a flag that's 50 years too soon.

RnLSarge
25th Oct 2004, 18:18
well actually using the tricolour as you have pointed out or using the Tzar flag would be the same thing... both were issued in 1858... the tricolour being the civil flag and of course the Tzar flag representing the Russian Empire. But as you said and pointed out through the link you posted, the Tricolour Black-yellow-white flag was a very unpopular. And as most people can see at the middle of the page... it shows that this flag is more used in todays time as a political symbol for monarchists and radical nationalists, not that it matters or anything just thought i would also point that bit of info out.

So i would say the tzar would be the flag i would choose.

Willmore
27th Oct 2004, 01:14
I meant the tricolor white-blue-red flag that is the current flag of Russia.

It was used as the civil ensign at the time, and would be OK, since that is the flag Russia is usually identified as. (It was the last flag before the revolution, with a golden eagle)

Vic Flange
16th Nov 2004, 10:32
Russian flag will be addressed... just not yet as it's a lower priority than some other graphical stuff. The reason it's wrong is that it's a throwback to when the time period of the game was not fully defined.

Angel SNR [HG]
21st Nov 2004, 21:37
Game is looking amazing and I'm liking the choice of units but why are the greenjackets wearing red? Might be a bit picky but the greenjacketed 95th and 60th rifles look plain silly in red!

Willmore
21st Nov 2004, 22:01
same goes for every other unit.

The reason is that they have decided to use generic "country" colors for all units of the same country.

Ie - Red - Britain, Blue - France, probably Green - Russia, Black/White - Prussia, Yellow - Austria.

Or something of the sort.