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perryscoon
8th Oct 2004, 03:37
Which do you play in, and why?

theBlackman
8th Oct 2004, 07:26
There really is only one, you know. ;)

LithiuMart
8th Oct 2004, 10:43
I might try 3rd person when I finish it, but I prefer FPS games so I play it that way.

MisterT
8th Oct 2004, 11:09
I only switch to 3rd person as a substitute for the missing lean-forward action.

Lake
8th Oct 2004, 11:39
Originally posted by MisterT
I only switch to 3rd person as a substitute for the missing lean-forward action.

I do that and use it to take screenshots of Garrett in action.

c6jones720
8th Oct 2004, 11:53
I think it looks better when you play in 1st person mode. When you run in 3rd person, it looks like Garrett is Jogging like he cant be bothered to run.

ycdeo
10th Oct 2004, 00:35
well....i would say i like to play in 3rd person view as it is more enjoyable.

Valzara
10th Oct 2004, 16:04
3rd person, I always prefer 3rd person view in any action game. (Except shooting game, like FPS)

WNxScythe
10th Oct 2004, 17:20
1st person is WAYYY better... far, far more immersive = far far more fun.

But 3rd is good for taking SS of garett...

^^^

to the guy above... you really need to try Cradle in 1st person :cool:

russian_girl
23rd Dec 2004, 13:16
i like the first person, because you really feel and see the whole thing as Garrett

Ian Flaer
23rd Dec 2004, 14:51
first person, like blackman said "there really is only one." I will occasionally jump to 3rd to peek around a corner but not often, I only really use it when I'm scared, in otherwords most corners in the cradle got the 3rd person peek. interestingly enough I 3p peeked more corners in the outer cradle than the inner.

russian_girl
24th Dec 2004, 16:06
I have no wonder that you took more corners as 3p in outer cradl as in the inner, because i think it wa even more scary in the outer cradle than in the inner

russian_girl
24th Dec 2004, 16:09
Originally posted by Ian Flaer
interestingly enough I 3p peeked more corners in the outer cradle than the inner.
that´s no wonder, because i think it was even more scary in the outer cradle

JC 12
29th Dec 2004, 19:13
I play in 3rd person because im used to RPG's ( i prefer them) and i rekon its better if you are playing thief because it gives you a more view of our sorroundings.

Rommel_1891
31st Dec 2004, 20:10
I hate to post the same thing as tBm... so I'll just say there's only one way to play! ;)

empty_other
12th Jan 2005, 11:39
Originally posted by MisterT
I only switch to 3rd person as a substitute for the missing lean-forward action.

Second.

And for those lean to the left when against a wall. I really wish they had included stealth moves from Metal Gear Solid - Sons of Liberty:
1. The lean to the left to look around a corner.
2. The ability to hang from an edge a short time (but not do a fancy jump (like Raiden's), just hang wherever there is a chance to jump and grab. Controls? While pressing jump to get up like you use to do, you should press duck, then he would just hang. Had been cool)
3. Duck while pressing against a wall, and still be able to move along an small edge...

c6jones720
12th Jan 2005, 12:55
Ordinarily I would say 1st person all the way, but because Garett can climb I think that it is an advantage to toggle the viewpoints. I'd never dream of playing the whole game in 3rd person but it is nice to switch viewpoints every so often to see stuff you might have missed otherwise.

Lebensborn
14th Jan 2005, 01:13
i only use it when i'm climbing cos you can't look down to much or at least u can't see anything, especialy when you've been chased up there by a gaurd it's good to know when it's dafe

vdwind
18th Jan 2005, 16:46
I think first person is the best mode for playing games like this, because you can fully dive into the atmosphere of the game, to feel everything, to feel that when someone shoots at you it will hit you and you'll feel a pain somehow. And what's that 3-rd mode, you are like a bird watching from above and looking on whose head to make a dirt :):):):):):) hahahahahaha, you can't feel the game, this is not a strategy game, this is a real world, the world of Thief........ :) But this is what i think, maybe others think in other way :)

Vlado

Mythrander101
19th Jan 2005, 16:12
Well I prefer 1st person because it's more immersive and more realistic. But for things like climbing i switch to 3rd so that i can see where the heck i'm going.

If you've never gone thru Shalebridge Cradle in first person (oh god, that was creepy!) try it!

3rd person is not as fun to me, i don't like to see what i'm doing i want to actually feel what i'm doing. I want to feel myself jump over a space to land on the other side, i want to feel when i get hit.

This is my opinion, but i like the switch-on-the-fly views option.

Myth101

P.S. Login: Icaurs, Password: Panopticon

roadbum
23rd Jan 2005, 02:59
I prefer the 3rd person mode, mainly because you get a better sense of your surroundings, also, a lot of the other games I've played are in 3rd person, it's just a more comfortable mode of play for me.

Lobber
24th Jan 2005, 19:57
1st person, because real life is all 1st person.

Whatz His Name
24th Jan 2005, 21:13
http://www.carondelet.pvt.k12.ca.us/frankenstein/frankey.gif*Doing my best Frankenstein monster impression*

Third person... BADDD!!! First person... GOODDDD!!! :D

Porion
25th Jan 2005, 00:06
i gotta say, i never made it past the Cradle, partly because i had to return the game to my friend, but partly because it scared the living **** out of me, they weren't undead and they were certainly tougher than any living thing. and they were everywhere, i cranked brightness and went to 3rd just to keep sane :eek:

but in any other one, including the ship with the 4 undead on it, i played FPS. wasn't fun on the ship, but i was fine with it afterwards. :rolleyes: :eek:

now i only got the demo but i can't imagine playing in anything but FPS.

jtbalogh
28th Jan 2005, 10:04
Third person (3PS) has been more realistic for me because:

1. fastest way to look to the side to avoid combat,
2. run in one fixed direction and look in any direction,
3. where my left/right foot was on the ground or ledge,
4. reminded me of a very 3D impressive world,
5. saw an incredibly cinematic movie.

1.
Realism for me as Garrett was to make split decisions to avoid combat while moving up/down/left/right while jumping/running. I assumed a thief moved away and not forward into combat. So I scanned the ground next to me in 3PS really fast with my physical eyes. Took longer in FPS while my keyboard and mouse moved drastically around into each position I wanted to see.

2.
Simultaneously move in one fixed direction and look in any direction. Possible in FPS, but hardly comfortable. 3PS helped so my physical eye can watch what was next to Garrett while moving straight passed things.

3.
Run around knowing my feet hit the ground or ledge, just like I know in the real world. FPS had very little sense of that, so 3PS helped.

4.
Using FPS through Garrett's eyes was acceptable but no stereo or 180 degree peripheral vision. So 3PS helped show more depth to objects around Garrett. I assumed a thief spent a lot more time with very close objects and enemy. Amazing to see Garrett actually move against a wall, step on things, stand in a fog or bush, and sneak around enemy.

5.
I love watching movies. So I loved seeing perspectives of the amazing terrain and Garrett sneaking around in it. Loved camera perspectives repositioning around walls and roofs. Loved switching between FPS and 3PS for even more perspectives. In the end, 3PS gave the motion some sort of continuity and kept the world connected to Garrett. Movies show main actors in different perspectives all the time, so I am already brainwashed into enjoying perspectives ?

Just a thought. Be kind and have fun.

jtbalogh
29th Jan 2005, 05:39
Good news. Because of third person, I became a devoted thief fan and FPS was not so boring anymore.

Maybe third person was a miracle, not error. I was so used to FPS in Doom and Unreal Tournament before that FPS in thief was just too boring without killing. But now that I saw Garrett do his moves in third person, I got hooked.

Maybe third person can also be personal. In real life, I assume seeing myself in a mirror or in a video is still me, not some body or puppet that was controlled. I know I went through the motions and I was in control of my destiny. Gave me a much better appreciation of what I am capable of. Now watching Garrett in third person also made me later appreciate in FPS how amazing he is at thieving and I am doing that stuff even though I can not see it.

Scrooble
29th Jan 2005, 07:36
Definitely first, mainly because it's how you play Thief 1 and 2, and I can't really imagine playing in anything other than that . . . except when I have to jump from one platform to another, or walk across a narrow ledge, or something. . that's where the third person comes in handy. . so I can see exactly where Garrett's got his feet and when to jump.

jtbalogh
2nd Feb 2005, 03:32
FYI. Article last year with Warren Spector says he had an open mind and found both were good,

http://archive.gamespy.com/interviews/march04/spector/index4.shtml

DaedalusXXX
6th Feb 2005, 15:03
1st person. And I love the fact that if you look around you actually see your whole body just like you would in real life. The only other game that did it that I remember was Arx Fatalis.

jtbalogh
6th Feb 2005, 18:07
>> Original post by DaedalusXXX
>> ... love the fact that if you look around you actually see your whole body ...

I agree. Maybe when designing third person, the developers saw they could add all the body parts of Garrett more easily to first view too. :cool:

Xcom
6th Feb 2005, 18:48
3rd person. It's more realistic. :p

DaedalusXXX
7th Feb 2005, 18:37
3rd person. It's more realistic. :p
Because in reality you are an eye suspended in space that's trailing behind your body :rolleyes:

Whatz His Name
7th Feb 2005, 19:04
Because in reality you are an eye suspended in space that's trailing behind your body :rolleyes:
Hey, it's a realistic out-of-body experience. :D

Xcom
7th Feb 2005, 19:23
Because in reality you are an eye suspended in space that's trailing behind your body :rolleyes:

No, because in reality, you wear paper bag on your head with tiny, square hole cut out.. for one eye. ;)

r3bel
8th Feb 2005, 02:08
I use both...maybe 3rd person a little more.

I find myself often changing view. Usually 1st when using bows, "advanced" sneaking and when "scanning". Otherwise I run around in 3rd person and when taking out lesser foes.

r3bel
Iceland

DaedalusXXX
8th Feb 2005, 03:09
I have found the 3rd person view good for looking around corners without actually leaning around them. Not too realistic, but saves me from getting caught ;)

c6jones720
8th Feb 2005, 08:07
In reality it is best to have the option of both first and third person view. In the first two games 1st person view was all we had and it made for an immersive game. Now that Garrett can climb 3rd person can be an advantage. Remember in the old Tomb Raider games? You had to use the 1st person mode occasionally to get a good look around, well its the same here but in reverse. I think its best to have the choice, although I use 90% 1st person.

Whatz His Name
8th Feb 2005, 14:48
Personally, I think using the third person view to look around corners so you won't get caught is cheating. That's MY opinion. But, then I remembered how Thief 2 had the orb that you could use to look around corners so you wouldn't get caught. I do prefer that method over the third person view because once you run out of orbs, you can't do it anymore.

I guess I'll continue to ignore the third person view option.

Xcom
8th Feb 2005, 15:20
I think using the third person view to look around corners so you won't get caught is cheating.

........Why?

c6jones720
8th Feb 2005, 16:03
Actually yeah you're right. I completely forgot about the scouting orb. That was definately a cool feature of Metal Age. Now you mention it, it should have been in deadly shadows..Imagine beaing able to use the orb, 1st and third person. I think the features should be kept in. After all you don't have to use them.

Zaccheus
8th Feb 2005, 17:21
There's a third person option in TDS ?!
:confused: :D

bravus
8th Feb 2005, 19:01
I think a *really* interesting poll (I'm not sure if there's a way to do it on the forum) would correlate having played Thief 1 and 2 with preference for first person vs third person. I'd venture that there'd be a *massive* preference for first person in that group, whereas others who've come in via other games have styles and preferences inherited from those.

I never switched to third person at all in Deadly Shadows, after trying it just to see it, and basically forgot it existed as an option. I play Morrowind 99% of the time in first person, and just switch to third to admire my new armour or whatever!

I don't think there's 'one true way', but as I said above, the old guard of Thief are likely to believe anything but first person is sacrilege. ;)

Whatz His Name
8th Feb 2005, 21:22
........Why?
You're suppose to be Garrett. Garrett is just a normal human being with a mechanical eye who so happens to be a master thief. He doesn't have super powers or magic. You are him. He is you. With that in mind, how do you explain the ability to be able to have a out-of-body experience to see around corners just so a guard won't see you peeking? In my opinion, that ruins the thrill of sneaking through the place. At least with the scouting orb, you were limited to the number of orbs you carried and the danger of a guard hearing you throw them.

Xcom
8th Feb 2005, 22:04
You're suppose to be Garrett. Garrett is just a normal human being with a mechanical eye who so happens to be a master thief. He doesn't have super powers or magic. You are him. He is you. With that in mind, how do you explain the ability to be able to have a out-of-body experience to see around corners just so a guard won't see you peeking?

Personally, I wouldn't say I'm Garrett. Thief isn't the kind of RPG where you build your character from scratch, in a manner of speaking, and Garrett is too well defined hero in his world. It's fun to control Garrett but I'm not him. Besides, how are female gamers supposed to be Garrett, eh? ;)

However, that being said, if you like to think of yourself as Garrett, then by all means. I'm curious though as to how you explain ability to load and save games, for example? Is that also cheating? It seems to me that this feature is also incredibly unrealistic if you apply your Thief gaming philosophy.

jtbalogh
9th Feb 2005, 04:55
[Xcom], please do not propose 3PS is okay because you can cheat. Hardly a defense to brag about if you want to be a master thief.

jtbalogh
9th Feb 2005, 04:58
WhatzHisName, give Xcom a break. ;)

I like FPS for getting me closer to the action, but will concede that it is no more real than looking through a security camera mointed on a helmet cam or through a horse with blinders. [Xcom] said, "... wear paper bag on your head with tiny, square hole cut out ... ") 3PS tried to resolve this by giving more depth and more horizontal/verticle, while minimizing a reliance on clumsy mouse/keyboard controls to scan around in less than a second.

Maybe someday, the cheat noticed with 3PS can be fixed in the next version after submitting a bug report or feature request which:

1. Keeps objects/enemy hidden when around corners in 3PS view. Garrett must move to look around the corner to display it.

2. Keeps objects/enemy hidden behind Garrett in 3PS view. Garrett must turn slightly until the normal 180 degree perspective displays it.

3. Brings back swimming, rope climbing, turning on ladder, etc. and automatically switch to FPS if there was no time from developers to design body awareness for 3PS view.

4. Makes new levels considering FPS and 3PS so objects/enemy are not just put right in the middle of a hallway where anyone can see.

Cheers.

jtbalogh
9th Feb 2005, 05:46
Maybe seeing around corners is not cheating ...

Third person seems like 'cheating' when looking around corners. With that logic, we should also be concerned about FPS in thief gold (have not tried thief 2) because 'cheating' seems possible when looking around corners too. Spoiler: Lean around a corner from the darkness, the light gem will remain dark and guards will not see you. You can lean a lot and the light gem remains dark.

Scrooble
9th Feb 2005, 10:19
Besides, how are female gamers supposed to be Garrett, eh? ;)

Huh. . that's kind of an interesting question, actually. I'm a female gamer, and my first impulse is to say that I've always felt like I am the character, regardless of gender, but when I think about it, while I'm playing I don't actually become the character. I have a tendency to start talking to the character occassionally. .("Dammit, Garrett, JUMP! Why can't you get up this wall?? It's freakin' ROCK!") :rolleyes: . . . So I guess I wouldn't say that I am the character either. . .I'm more like the voice in his head. :D

c6jones720
9th Feb 2005, 10:21
Its weird, you are the character but not. Its not like you feel feminine when you play as Lara croft or anything. Genders never really crossed my mind when I play a game

Whatz His Name
9th Feb 2005, 17:50
WhatzHisName, give Xcom a break.
I wasn't trying to give Xcom a hard time. I was just answering his question. He is has the right to think however he wants; just like I do. Agree or disagree, I personally believe that using the third person view for the sole purpose of seeing around a corner without being caught is cheating. That's my opinion and I'll tell it to anyone who asks.

jtbalogh
10th Feb 2005, 06:32
Thanks for the clarification, WhatzHisName. If you do not mind, would you consider that 3PS is leaning visually faster than FPS is pressing the lean key mechanically, so the same result is not cheating. Metaphor: visual processing is to mouse manuevering, as internet T-1 speed is to 56k baud. Master thieves have a fast slight of hand and stealth, so fast is not automatically cheating either.
;)

BTW. Were you able to duplicate the cheat(bug) with FPS in thief 1 gold? You do realize the cheating argument may also suggest we vote to stop thief lovers from playing FPS in thief 1, if we must stop playing 3PS in thief 3. May also suggest we vote to remove leaning in FPS which was designed to give an edge against AI (to cheat). May also suggest thieves in the real world 'cheat' all the time. Thieves sneak fast around a city in the United States and are not visually challenged by muscle controlled keyboard/mouse interfaces and cardboard cut-out eye slots 100% of the time ... only sometimes challenged when looking through a 'mechanical eye' or tapping into a 'Cragscleft prison' security network to monitor cameras ...
:rolleyes:

Thief 1 cheat(bug) more details:
In thief 1 gold (maybe thief 2/3 ?), lean around a corner from the darkness, the light gem will remain dark and guards do not see me. Lean a lot and the light gem remains dark. Alternatively, lean from any shadow into direct light, the light gem will remain dark and guards do not see me. Alternatively, thief 3 in 3PS does the same lean faster without relying on a strained poor finger pressing the lean button all the time.
:cool:

Happy thieving.

Xcom
10th Feb 2005, 15:13
1. Keeps objects/enemy hidden when around corners in 3PS view. Garrett must move to look around the corner to display it.



Uhm, yes, that would be fun.

http://www.matrixrain.com/misc/forum/thief3ps.jpg

*second later*

http://www.matrixrain.com/misc/forum/thief3ps2.jpg

Whatz His Name
10th Feb 2005, 18:16
... would you consider that 3PS is leaning visually faster than FPS is pressing the lean key mechanically, so the same result is not cheating.
Hmmmm... personally, I don't think I could go along with that. I think the lean cheat should be fixed. I have been able to do that on some occasions but not all. I found that if I leaned too far near a light source, I would become visible. With T3's dynamic lighting, they should be able to patch that.

Basically, when it comes to Thief games, I like the idea of seeing through Garrett's eyes. I like seeing what he is able to see and unable to see. If I get caught, it's because I didn't enter a room, walk down the hall, or climb through a window with enough caution. I don't want a easy cheat.

jtbalogh
11th Feb 2005, 02:34
Xcom, LOL, great samples. Luckily, no black void if the bug was fixed, since only occupants would be hidden out of line-of-sight. Luckily, no stupid enemy crossing the middle of a room anymore, since more AI keeps them closer to a wall or behind cover even if they see you ... :cool:

WhatzHisName, good news. I agree FPS can judge a thief by only his mouse/keyboard skills as a good expert objective. I also agree 3PS can be silly, but is so far the closest alternative to sitting around an array of ten monitors scanned faster with my real eyes. I also agree old FM's and OM's are at a disadvantage with 3PS. But wait for the next generation of FM's with talented developers who hide terrain and enemy that both a FPS and 3PS view could see. 3PS is ahead of its time and Eidos made *****ty levels to prove it ... ;)

Cheating? No. The second picture clearly indicates how we see chaos in a 3PS view or FPS leaning, which is the same since no difference to see the same chaos. Pressing the lean key would just take seconds longer to scan an area with computer eyeballs controlled by an archaic mouse/keyboard interface. 3PS provides a newer third interface, a visual interface with faster frame rate (my real eyeballs), to scan an area.

Of course, thieves who are proud they can press a lean key or jerk the mouse around in the middle of extremely tense situations are qualified to think 3PS is cheating for sissies. :p