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View Full Version : Shellshock Nam 67: Reality vs. Gameplay



d-2-502-101abn
20th Sep 2004, 04:46
Eidos/Guerilla are to be commended for their work overall on this game. I found myself remembering things while playing through the first 3 missions: so they get an A for environmental realism.

Overall, they manage to capture the flavor of the conflict. So far (through mission 3), my main objections are two-fold:

1. The AI needs work, the Marines* don't use the tactics of the time, at times frustrating my efforts to flank enemy positions and lay suppressive fire to support their advance. If Eidos is bold enough to make a sequel (such as Tet 68, for instance), I hope this is an aspect they address.

2. They need a mix, graphically of VC and NVA forces. For instance, mission one would seem a bit more realistic if the dug in position on the hill were an NVA strongpoint. The VC tended to be a bit more covert about their basing. This also ties in somewhat with point 1: the NVA AI should be different from the VC AI, as the NVA were professional soldiers of North Vietnam's army -- and while they used some of the same techniques as the VC insofar as their ability to camouflage, move covertly and the like, their military operations were (on the whole) more organized.

*I use the term "Marine," as there has been discussion elsewhere about whether the troops depicted were Army or Marine. There were discussions about the flak jackets and the ammo pouches (which would tend to support Marine vs. Army).

The clinchers in this debate, in my mind, is the (Gunny's?) lid or cover: note during briefings, that this headgear is Marine-style and not Army issue, and further, if you look close you can see the faint suggestion of the Marine Corps emblem. Although this is mostly cosmetic, and you can imagine yourself as a marine or as a soldier -- a grunt is a grunt in most aspects anyway.

The second was the insertion video clip showing a Chinook (CH47 or more than likely the smaller Marine version, the CH46). In air assault units in the Army (the 101st and 1st Cav), the primary helicopter for insertion of troops into an LZ (particularly if it was hot) was the UH-1D (Huey), Chinooks were used for transporting artillery and supplies usually, or troops into a non-contested environment. It may be minor, but in mission 3 for instance, you board a Huey, but the insertion video shows the CH46/47: a note to Eidos to watch for such inconsistencies -- and I know I am nit-picking here.

Take point, troop, and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

d-2-502-101abn
20th Sep 2004, 14:06
Oops: time to eat crow ... now in mission 4, I am encountering NVA regulars. As they say, Eidos: my bad.

ACEofSPADES87
20th Sep 2004, 18:38
Originally posted by d-2-502-101abn


*I use the term "Marine," as there has been discussion elsewhere about whether the troops depicted were Army or Marine. There were discussions about the flak jackets and the ammo pouches (which would tend to support Marine vs. Army).

The clinchers in this debate, in my mind, is the (Gunny's?) lid or cover: note during briefings, that this headgear is Marine-style and not Army issue, and further, if you look close you can see the faint suggestion of the Marine Corps emblem. Although this is mostly cosmetic, and you can imagine yourself as a marine or as a soldier -- a grunt is a grunt in most aspects anyway.



Yet, in the opening cut scene Pyscho says they're in the United States Army.

d-2-502-101abn
20th Sep 2004, 22:12
ACE:

You are absolutely correct; but then again, judging from Kowalski's behavior during the game, it is obvious he's a bit over the edge. lol

Seems to be a bit of design inconsistency on Eidos' part; while certain tidbits during cutscenes would have you believe they're in the Army, other things -- as mentioned -- would have you believe they are Marines.

So a case can be made either way: so as a player, just choose whichever service floats your boat.

(Any resemblance in the previous statement and the Swift Boat veterans is purely unintentional ... lol)

Take point troops and don't get yoursself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

ACEofSPADES87
21st Sep 2004, 01:16
Ya, you can't really tell for sure. Pick w/e floats your boat.

AgentOrange_section8
21st Sep 2004, 06:46
whats the term Swift Boat mean...sorry i sound stupid but im 15 lol and I've read alot of Nam books an played Nam games but i aint seen swift boat veterans anywhere...an they call Kerry that too?? what is it? lol sorry i feel dumb for not knowing lol

d-2-502-101abn
21st Sep 2004, 14:43
The Swift boats were Navy (and believe it or not, Army) patrol boats used to maintain control of the Mekong River and its tributaries.

I referenced it as a joke, given the current political finger-pointing between Sen. John Kerry and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

I do find it interesting that the Navy awarded Purple Hearts for fragging and shooting yourself (and peppering yourself with rice).

Well, perhaps I will let it lay there ... don't even want to get started on what I think of the antics of Kerry while in the good old RVN.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

ACEofSPADES87
21st Sep 2004, 16:18
Also known as PBRs Patrol boat, River. I forgot the name of each of the models. There are two seperate ones. One's bigger I think.

AgentOrange_section8
22nd Sep 2004, 13:39
Yeah i know PBRs i didnt know swift boats cuz PBR is in abunch of books i read and its in Battlfield: Vietnam "requesting PBR support over!!" lol! well theres alot of good pictures in Tim Pages' Nam picture book thing...pretty good stuff...well alright man! does shell shock have ARVN in it?? ...well i guess the Vietnamese guys they have with them are good enough (Tiger Scouts) they were called back then i think? correct me if im wrong...but i hope they make a second one and make it way better! hopefully Ia Drang...hehe...alright dudes see ya later! Does the M-16 ever jam in this game? because back in Nam the 16 was a piece of...crap...i read that it jammed all the time and people would get killed because of it...just wondering!!! i know you must be getting annoyed of my stupid questions but thanks if you answer!! later bros

peace,
-Justin



IT DONT MEAN NOTHIN'

d-2-502-101abn
22nd Sep 2004, 14:07
AO, you are correct in that the AR15/M16 was prone to jamming ... that was the reason they developed the A1 mods to the weapon. It is also the reason most loaded their 20-round magazine with only 18 rounds. An "in the field" fix to a weapon design problem.

Keeping your weapon clean mitigated this, but was often difficult in field conditions, particularly in the monsoon season.

PBR was the Army accronym, the Navy called them Swift Boats: many people do not realize that the Army actually had more patrol boats based in the Mekong region than the Navy did. Though I learned of this through research after the fact, as my experience at the time was all in the Central Highlands region in the 101st's AO (Area of Operations).

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

ACEofSPADES87
22nd Sep 2004, 16:14
Originally posted by d-2-502-101abn
AO, you are correct in that the AR15/M16 was prone to jamming ... that was the reason they developed the A1 mods to the weapon. It is also the reason most loaded their 20-round magazine with only 18 rounds. An "in the field" fix to a weapon design problem.

Keeping your weapon clean mitigated this, but was often difficult in field conditions, particularly in the monsoon season.



Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

yup, affirmative. Unfortunatly the Army believed that the M16 didn't need to be cleaned. Which was a big mistake of course lol. Also switching from stick to ball powder.

heres a link (http://www.jdumong.net/delta/m-16Part2.htm) if you guys are interested in the history of the M16.

Talk to you fellas later.

d-2-502-101abn
22nd Sep 2004, 17:38
Which Army doesn't believe in cleaning weapons? lol ... I would have kicked anyone in my team's *** if they didn't tend to weapons maintenance during our take-10's. It was a 50-50 deal: 50% clean and rest while 50% maintain overwatch. So a take-10 was more of a take-5 lol.

Nothing more worthless in a firefight than a weapon that won't function.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

ACEofSPADES87
22nd Sep 2004, 19:28
Originally posted by d-2-502-101abn
Which Army doesn't believe in cleaning weapons? lol ... I would have kicked anyone in my team's *** if they didn't tend to weapons maintenance during our take-10's. It was a 50-50 deal: 50% clean and rest while 50% maintain overwatch. So a take-10 was more of a take-5 lol.

Nothing more worthless in a firefight than a weapon that won't function.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

I remember watching a documentary on the History channel about the M16. They said some higher power Army officials believed the M16 was "self-cleaning" ( bunch of BS huh? lol). Although Stoner never intended it this way. Much of the G.I. found out the hard way. I heard stories of soldiers dying 10 feet from the enemy because their weapon jammed.

d-2-502-101abn
22nd Sep 2004, 22:49
Generals believe weapons are self-cleaning because they don't have to clean theirs. lol.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

AgentOrange_section8
23rd Sep 2004, 06:43
LOL funny thats how all Brass are..oh well


My Woodshop teacher here in japan was in Vietnam he said he was part of the Signal Corps? I just said "oh really thats tight" because i didnt wanna look stupid so whats the Signal Corps...anyways he tells me LOADS of stories of what happend in Nam but on the other hand my Math Teacher doesnt like to talk about it at all and he was in the Marine Corps...well can some one tell me what the Signal Corps are?? i think they are just a bunch of REMFS...hehe someone here should know what a REMF is at least...oh well whats Signal Corps? thanks alot guys!

PEACE OUT!

AgentOrange_section8
23rd Sep 2004, 06:49
OH and I wanna know another thing! i wanna know if this is true my woodshop teacher Mr.Ackermann told me this story.

They were in Nam (duh) and him and another dude were assigned to sit in a bunker and just watch the perimiter at Long Bihn or something...well they were just sitting there in the bunker and the guy he was with had a M-79 (grenade launcher for those who dont know) and he just shot the thing off...it was weird because all of a sudden my teacher started cussing and stuff and i was like holy f***!!! hes like "Tha son-of-a-b*tch shot the damn thing off" and he said that he jumped out of the bunker and the guy who shot off the round was scared *****less and he just sat there but the Round didnt blow up because the M-79 round was designed to explode after the round its self rotated a certain amount of times through the air....is that true? the Round was designed that way?? thanks!

ACEofSPADES87
23rd Sep 2004, 16:44
I'm not too sure, but I would think that's possible. All I know is that the M-79 can fire smoke Nades and Buck shots. Here's a of info about the gun. There's also alot more info on Vietnam war era weapons.link (http://www.vietnam-war.info/weapons/m79_grenade_launcher.php)

d-2-502-101abn
23rd Sep 2004, 20:52
If memory serves me right (and sometimes it doesn't lol ... happens that way as you get older), the arming distance of the M79 HE round (and the M203) was 31 meters. So yes, that story could well be true.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

d-2-502-101abn
27th Sep 2004, 14:22
As for the the Signal Corps ... yes, they are REMFs lol ... though many were assigned as staff officers to brigade or battalion HQs.

As the name implies, that branch is responsible for communications systems: whether tactical FM radio nets or more currently microwave or satellite communications systems.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

Beefypeanut
28th Sep 2004, 02:40
hmm... My dad was a Ranger in Vietnam and he said he parachuted out of Chinooks into combat...

d-2-502-101abn
28th Sep 2004, 04:11
Yes, you can parachute/land in a Chinook, but the typical practice for insertion into an LZ was by UH1D Huey (the infamous "slick").

Chinooks were predominantly heavy lifters relegated to airmobile artillery units and the like (and the occasional covert drop, which were few and far between).

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2

TLK
28th Sep 2004, 22:33
There's an interesting chapter in "National Defense" by Fallows, called "Two weapons". The first part is about the M16 and it's troubles. This material comes up again in another interesting book about the history of Army Ordinance and a few other places.

In short, the story goes like this (I'm doing this from memory). Eugene Stoner designed the weapon for IMR powder. Army Ordinance wanted only the M14 rifle, and wanted to rely on their huge stockpile of Ball powder. They tried to rig competitive tests in favor of the M14. I've read that during the Vietnam era, Army issued .223 caliber ammo was loaded with Ball powder. I think the Marines were early adopters/proponents of the M16, but I wonder if they sourced different ammo.

Anyway, these books lay the blame on the Army Ordinance brass who "hated" the M16 and didn't mind issuing ammo loaded with their favorite Ball Powder, gleeful that the inappropriate powder would lead to a high failure rate of M16s in the field, and make the M14 look good.

As I recall, Ball powder burns longer/slower than IMR. This has the effect that it's still burning when the bolt has unlocked and the bolt carrier begins cycling. So still burning powder escapes the chamber and gunks up the works. And it also generates more pressure than the rifle was designed for resulting in faster cycling (850 rounds/min as opposed to 600 rounds/min with IMR).

For a time I was shooting AR-15 (Colt Sporter based on M16A2 I think) type rifles for target and plinking. I used to buy cheap Remington bricks of ammo that were Gov. overruns (just post Gulf War). I've always wondered if they're Ball Powder or IMR...

d-2-502-101abn
28th Sep 2004, 23:45
All the new-generation ammo should be IMR, at least the military-grade stuff. Not sure about commercially-based stuff. See the M16 post (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45385) and MadMedic's great comments.

Take point troop and don't get yourself waxed to the max. Geronimo. -- d2