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View Full Version : Has Tomb Raider Gone Down Hill?



Black Angel
3rd Sep 2004, 22:47
I am reluctant to say this but, it seems that the Tomb Raider Series has been going down the drain since 1997. Many magazines, such as the Electronic Gaming Monthly, have even suggested that the entire series has been garbage ever since Tomb Raider II in 1997. It has failed to introduce any elements that make gameplay revolutionary. It has been the same cloak and dagger third person shooter for seven years now. The quality of the games in general have been abyssmal ever since then as well. The Angel of Darkness may have just been a wake up call that Eidos is running, or has run, out of fresh ideas for the Tomb Raider Series. Frankly, it would in my opinion take a complete overhaul to return Lara to her former glory. Unfortunately, prospects do not seem pleasing if the quality of present games is any indicator.

Invincible
4th Sep 2004, 06:59
I also read in this other mag (a respected one as they would call it :D ) ,that games such as..
well I'm not gonna type it out, i'm gonna scan it and u read it out for yourself. It's basicaly talking about the repetition of games in their sequels and about the developers
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/LandOfShadows/ssdg.jpg

GoranAgar
4th Sep 2004, 09:32
I couldn't care less about what other people think about my favorites. I still enjoy Tomb Raider, and some fat nerd that writes down his boring opinons for a game magazine won't change that. :)

Panoulis
4th Sep 2004, 09:45
You couldn't care any less??? If the fans vanish then what will the mods do??? Ban each other???:D

Deckard
4th Sep 2004, 09:55
It very much depends on whom you ask.

Ask the "professionals" aka "reviewers", and 99,9% of them will answer: yeah, it's dead, pull the plug. Most of them are 16 years old, never played a single TR game, don't know what a custom level is and think its cool to bash a game which sold mio's of copies bc that way they get so's attention. Whatever :rolleyes: .

Ask the question within the shelter of this forum and the result will be different. Obviously ;) . But nevertheless, asking the people who declaredly like the series and therefore very probably support future sales is interesting. The result can be viewed here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24053).

The members of this forum seemingly have not noticed a decline in the quality of the series. IMO, TR1 is underrated and AOD is overrated in this poll, but in the end it reflects that the basic game concept "Adventuress has to solve mysteries and under way fight foes, solve puzzles and explore exotic places" is not outdated.

Admittedly, if time after time the same game elements are used, things tend to become boring - but nobody forces the developer to do so. So in the end the only problem I see concerns the creativity of the develeoper in combining old and new elements. Not a small problem, but certainly resolvable given the right people and sufficient time ;) ;) ;) .

Let's go adventuring! That's what TR is about, and I'd really like to know what's wrong, obsolete or "cookie-cutter" about this concept.

GoranAgar
4th Sep 2004, 10:28
Originally posted by Panoulis
You couldn't care any less??? If the fans vanish then what will the mods do??? Ban each other???:D
This might come to you as a shock, but my main interest in Tomb Raider is my own pleasure in the game.

Panoulis
4th Sep 2004, 10:45
I believe you because that's the very same way i feel about TR too... However i wasn't trying to make you angry... just to understand you...:rolleyes:

PS. *irrelevant* For how many years have you been a mod...?:confused:

baylisst
4th Sep 2004, 11:39
i have liked and always will like tr. all of them had something different about them, whether it was the level design, puzzles, combat, enemies or engine. they all should be classed as good, separate games. some people might disagree, and that tr 5 + 6 are really awful, but despite tr5 just being, in my mind, tr4 with new levels, i still think it's a good game. tr6 is good too. it may be glitchy, but after the first few levels i thought it got better. plus the fact that eidos hurried core may be a factor, i don't know

maybe it's because tr was the first game i remember playing (after lemmings :D) but i still like it. i don't rely on reviewers to tell me what game to buy. if it interests me i go out and buy it, and not once has this method let me down. i do get the odd pc gamer now and again and read the reviews, but i only read them for what the game is about, not for how realistic the AI is, or how glitchy the game can be if you do certain things and have a certain spec that only rich whiney people have, or how the level design can be slightly wrong in a certain way that only a super-nerd could spot. the fact is that I DONT CARE. reviewers should rate games based on what they are, not what they are not, and i have seen many slag off tr games because of this

Catlantean
4th Sep 2004, 12:04
I don't think TR's been getting increasingly worse with every new game. 1, 2 and Last Revelation were top-class, 3 and Chronicles were average. AOD had the potential to be best TR ever, but turned out so bug-ridden and unfinished that it, unfortunately, falls into the garbage category :( What I'm hoping for in TR7 is that they'll take their time to ensure the game's running as it should.

As for the other games, yes you're right. The last revolutionary game I played was Planescape: Torment, some 5 years ago. Everything after that I simply play, complete and forget. Blame it on the mass-production I guess. The more games there are, the less wil be truly good ones.

GoranAgar
4th Sep 2004, 12:29
Originally posted by Panoulis
I believe you because that's the very same way i feel about TR too... However i wasn't trying to make you angry... just to understand you...:rolleyes:

PS. *irrelevant* For how many years have you been a mod...?:confused:
I know you weren't trying to make me angry. That is why I used a friendly smiley. Did you turn smilies off?

For how many years have you been an internet forum user ...?:confused:

Please notice the smiley I am using on top of this reply. (I guess I have to make this sentence my signature).

Panoulis
4th Sep 2004, 12:41
Originally posted by GoranAgar
I know you weren't trying to make me angry. That is why I used a friendly smiley. Did you turn smilies off?

For how many years have you been an internet forum user ...?:confused:

Please notice the smiley I am using on top of this reply. (I guess I have to make this sentence my signature).

No i didn't turn smileys off...:confused: Why...???

I'm just 17 so i don't think i'm more years in forums than you...:rolleyes: (3 years)

PS. I wasn't trying to prove anything, just curiousity... and yes! i know tha curiousity killed the cat... LOL):D

knamk
4th Sep 2004, 19:43
I don't play that many computer games, but when I see one I like, I'll get it. I remeber going out to buy one game, and even though my brothers were telling me that its ratings werent very good and it only got blah blah out of ten, I still got it, and enjoyed it, it's now one of my favourites, and I also found, that after my brothers watched me play it, they had both started saves on it too;). Same with TR6, but we still got it and we all liked it, and completed it.:)

I don't get game magazines because as long as I like what the game is about, it doesnt matter to me what other people think.

I don't think that most games are ment to be entirely realistic, because after all, they're just Games!:D

Invincible
5th Sep 2004, 03:19
Don't u think it's kinda sad though that only its true fans and gamers that have been playing it since the beggining care about it and follow the saga, and not those new ones or those gamers that would like to try it , even play it any more.
There is really few of those left....the second kind that is.

Deckard
5th Sep 2004, 09:18
I don't think it's that easy. As with anything :D .
Sure, a lot of the regular posters on this forum played TR from the very beginning, "grew up with Lara" :D :D :D .
Sure, these people - count myself as one of those - care about TR more than people who got their first TR game "by accident", e.g. found it as bonus with their shiny new graphics card.

But IMO it's questionable whether TR could survive all this time if only "fans" were to buy the game, and I think this is true for every other game too. A developer/publisher cannot afford to make a game for the "fans" only. Firstly, bc it's hard to tell how many fans a game has. Secondly bc some are easily disgruntled: "Oh, but I wanted Lara to marry Kurtis, Eidos I told you so a dozen times on the forum, and now you tell me he is a remote-controlled android from Natla Indusries ..." ;).

In the end, the only thing which matters is a good gameplay: fun to play but demanding to avoid boredom and occasionally a bit brainy - that's my preference. Easy, ain't it? :D Up until now TR gave me exactly this from TR1 to TR6. Well, TR6 a bit less so ... :D.

CatSuit&Ponytail
5th Sep 2004, 09:52
Originally posted by Deckard
Secondly bc some are easily disgruntled: "Oh, but I wanted Lara to marry Kurtis, Eidos I told you so a dozen times on the forum, and now you tell me he is a remote-controlled android from Natla Indusries ..." ;).



http://www.catsuitandponytail.com/files/eek.gif ... http://www.catsuitandponytail.com/files/lol.gif

knamk
5th Sep 2004, 10:33
When Tomb Raider first came out, we got it and completed it, over the years it may have changed but I think that obviously the graphics have improved. I'm not a computer nerd and I don't know anything too technical about games, but everyone has different opinions on the different games. I personally wouldnt like a 1st person view of whats going on, it would be way harder to manouver to places and make jumps, let alone know who may at the time be shooting you.

Black Angel
6th Sep 2004, 22:03
When I opened this thread I said that all of the games since Tomb Raider II have offered nothing revolutionary. I meant that the gameplay and scenarios that Lara finds herself in are generally the same type of entrenched third person shooter that was introduced in Tomb Raider II. For example, in Tomb Raider I there was a definite feeling of isolation from the outside world with the main gunbattles being against animals as opposed to the "goon squad" that deluged us in Tomb Raider II. Since Tomb Raider II came out there has been little change to this aspect of gameplay. The puzzles in Tomb Raider IV may have evolved since the beginning, however Eidos forgot one crucial element in the gameplay of that story. Eidos forgot that the reason that many people originally jumped onto the Tomb Raider bandwagon was because being with Lara took us to all sorts of exotic new locations with each game. The location being static in Tomb Raider IV ruined that game for me. I don't want to run around the burning desert sands for three hours, and I don't think that anyone could fault me on that point. The jumbled hybrid savegame system destroyed Tomb Raider III and the fact that if Nevada was chosen prior to Antartica in that game, there was no way to retrieve your weapons before the final confrontation. This was a huge problem. The musical score has been going downhill since Tomb Raider II as well. The main theme from Tomb Raider I has been chopped up and reused so many times that it's not funny anymore. When I talk about games that are revolutionary I'm talking about games that set the tone for the genre for many years afterward. Halo redefined the first person shooter to the point that no other game in that genre has been able to touch it since. Splinter Cell redefined the stealth action genre by introducing superior use of lighting effects in gameplay. Metal Gear Solid had the same effect on the stealth action genre before that although it generally featured some insanity inducing storylines. Final Fantasy VII redefined the world of RPG gaming. Tomb Raider has fallen from the path of revolution, and as I said before, only a serious redesign can fix it.

Deckard
6th Sep 2004, 23:16
Yes it is true, and I don't think that anyone can argue about that. TR1 to TR5 have a lot of in common. Starting with the heroine :). TR1 – as you put it – defined the genre of the 3rd person adventure game for years to come. TR1 became the reference for this genre, in 1996 it was revolutionary. Time went by, technology evolved. New game elements became available, which were „unthinkable“ in 1996. Did Eidos/Core fail to evolve the games by introducing new technolgies? Maybe. But maybe not. From 1996 until 2001 every year a new TR game was launched. Not bad, ain't it? Which other game series can claim the same? Obviously, this frequency of releases left little space for an – admitteldy sorely needed – overhaul of the game's engine. Sure, Eidos did not release the games bc they felt committed to keep the fans entertained. They definitively were „milking the cow“, but I can't pretend to be overly surprised by this strategy. It's not uncommon you see ... not at all :D.

My point is: in spite of being less and less up-to-date, i.e. lacking in „revolutionary“ graphics and in fact making use of obsolete sound technology, TR2, 3, 4 and 5 were fun to play. They were very different from each other. With every game Core did introduce novelties. Admittedly, nothing revolutionary, but it nevertheless is quite impressing what these guys were able to squeeze from the old engine in TRLR and TRC. With AOD they tried to do it right. It took them 3 years, bc they did in fact code a new engine - finally. As it seems, 3 years is not enough to code a game which is really new from top to bottom :rolleyes: . If they had decided to to restart from scratch after TR2, we would not even have the possibility to argue about TR5 and TR6. Right now, we would probably be waiting for TR4 to be released.

Lud*s Gate
6th Sep 2004, 23:41
Black Angel, the way I feel is that we all have the right to state our ideas and point of views and that we should agree to agree or disagree as "nicely" as possible.

I felt that the first Tomb Raider game was a great introduction to Lara Croft and her world and as being the first highly visible female character ever in a game. I loved how there was no choice between playing as her or a male character.

After the first game I was so excited for Tomb Raider II. I don't recall my anticipation for a game sequel ever being that strong. And the gameplay was well worth it too.

Even though all the games have storylines built around mysterious circumstances, I liked Tomb Raider III the best when it comes to this because I feel it has the most mystical storyline.

Tomb Raider The Last Revelation I liked a lot because I like having the chance to focus in being in just one country. The gameplay was a challenge to me though since so many areas were linked it was hard to know where the levels ended.

Tomb Raider Chronicles I felt was just a filler game and Tomb Raider Angel of Darkness, I hate the new controls so I've hardly played it. I watched my husband play and finish it instead.

As far as the Tomb Raider game music, I love the music from Tomb Raider III the best for the same reason I like the game. I have the music on CD and listen to it almost everyday. I enjoy the music from the other games as well. I love the recurring themes in the music. It connects the games together.

Lia67
13th Sep 2004, 22:56
The critics have a bad habit of deciding what's "In" and what's "Out".
In my opinion, it does'nt really matter because we can all pretty much make up our own minds. It's called personal preference.

In the game world, games are "In" one year and "Out" the other. It's an everending merry-go-round that ruffles a lot of feathers, and if you pay attention to it, it'll make you dizzy.

thanhkim
17th Sep 2004, 04:49
No TR still is the bomb

~*GoldenRose*~
19th Sep 2004, 11:54
There is never going to be downhill for Tomb Raider.

There is always new ideas to make another game, so let's go with that.

~*GoldenRose*~
19th Sep 2004, 11:55
There is never going to be downhill for Tomb Raider.

There is always new ideas to make another game, so let's go with that.

Alti
19th Sep 2004, 22:44
I don't think Tomb Raider has gone down-hill. Each game has it's own cool element about it. And I can't wait to see the next game. :)

jso2897
22nd Sep 2004, 03:52
Tombraider created a fantasy universe and heroine that provide a frameworkfor a storyteller. The best TR games are the ones that are the best artistically and literarily. Even as far on as TR5, they made one of the best levels ever - the Old Mill. TR3 was a fantastic voyage for me - took me two year to play. I'm only about half way through TRAOD now, and enjoying what little time I can devote to it. And who knows - there will be at least one more TR game, and if CD can breath new life into the franchise.....

LaraAngelOfDarkness
25th Sep 2004, 06:28
It is really sad when I can't: go to a gameboard, read a magazine or watch G4TechTV with out hearing a negative about TR and Lara Croft. I always hear "Laura looks unrealistic and her boobs are too big!"( Ialways hate when someone mispells her name!) Or "The only people who play TR are horny 13 year old boys." From what I see, that is a misconception. On G4TechTv the other day, a caller wanted to talk about Eidos and their financial problems. They said that Eidos thinks their 2005 year will be very good. The hosts said "Fat Chance" and reasons for why they don't produce good games is because they don't go into different catergories of games. Then, they brought up TR and said they should drop the series and that it was "dead". One of the hosts then said that they were making a part 7 and they all groaned. The week before that was another negative about TR. They said that we fans go blindly buy any TR games that come out only to stare and her breasts and oogle over them, and thats the reason it has sold over 40 million units as a whole. Maybe the only thing TR needed was some fresh input from another designer? I guess we will find out when new info is released. I really hope TR7 proves all those losers wrong, I want the game to at least get a 80% rating across the board.

LARAMANIAC
25th Sep 2004, 22:28
Originally posted by LaraAngelOfDarkness
I guess we will find out when new info is released. I really hope TR7 proves all those losers wrong, I want the game to at least get a 80% rating across the board.

Here!! Here!!! Me too, but then again, they will always find something to moan about! :rolleyes: :mad: Thats a guarantee! :(

thanhkim
8th Oct 2004, 21:30
Originally posted by GoranAgar
I couldn't care less about what other people think about my favorites. I still enjoy Tomb Raider, and some fat nerd that writes down his boring opinons for a game magazine won't change that. :) Totally agree with you what's not to love about tr it's the best like lara

Rascalius
27th Oct 2004, 07:01
I’ve never understood the games-media’s contempt for sequels that strongly resemble the original. Surely if a product sells well it’s prudent to supply more of the same to the people who appreciate it. What exactly are these people expecting? If these bozos at the gaming magazines think that Lara should, by now, be driving around a city, carving up pedestrians on a Harley, then why don’t they pick up a copy of GTA Vice City, and leave Tomb Raider the heck alone?

Sure, development is a good thing, and it’s always fun to gain new moves and more accurate lighting systems, etc, but this doesn’t seem to be enough for some people. Tomb Raider has developed well over the years, while keeping the game’s original, attractive qualities consistent. Good thing. If, for example, every time I went to the pub and found the flavour of my favourite lager had changed, I’d be disappointed. Or take ‘breathing’ as another example. I’ve been breathing for 35 years and the novelty is yet to wear off; some things don’t need changing. So keeping the essentials of the Tomb Raider franchise intact, (i.e. puzzle-solving, shooting baddies, exploring chasms and vaults, etc) is the right move, and fortunately Eidos gets it. Eidos realise that, despite technical developments, a popular product has to remain essentially the same, otherwise it becomes a different product.

If it isn’t broken - don’t fix it, and the Tomb Raider formula works well for millions of gamers. Therefore I say, “More of the same please, Eidos.”

whitemetal
29th Oct 2004, 14:07
Yep! so lets form a posse go after Kirtis and linch the dude!
Lara Croft doesn't need a sidekick or stealth moves, lets get back to raiding.......Fix it Eidos/CD or the posse coming for you next:eek:

GFunk
23rd Nov 2004, 03:37
I agree with......GoranAgar, who cares what the critics think! The critics are usually never right in judging master peises. Tomb Raider has improved since 1996 and the story is sitll thikening....it's fantastic.

whitemetal
25th Nov 2004, 12:42
The graphics in AOD were better no dought but the game play wasn't a patch on TR1,2,3 & 4........my opinion anyway.

Jorge22
25th Nov 2004, 14:31
Those idiotic critics are obviously not Tomb Raider fans and they don't even like TR. That's a fact. So, when somebody's opinion is that biased why should anybody care? The only thing that bores me is that they get paid to write and publish silly, biased opinions. As for only 13 years old playing TR in order to look at Lara's boobs, how messed up can their heads get! I'll be 42 in less than a month and I've played hundreds of TR games (counting all the customs, naturally), plus from what I see TR may be the only game out there whose players range from pre-adolescents and even children to people in their sixties and seventies, which is a feat! It's like somebody who's nly been educated with classical musical, some maestro or something, is so convinced he knows all about music he feels able to assure the rest of the world that rock is crap. What does he know? Rock was never a part of his music education. The only bad thing about all this is that you read what those demented, ignorant creatures write but it's impossible to have a dialogue with them, cause they're all well hidden behind their computer keyboards...

knightgames
20th Dec 2004, 04:27
If these bozos at the gaming magazines think that Lara should, by now, be driving around a city, carving up pedestrians on a Harley, then why don’t they pick up a copy of GTA Vice City, and leave Tomb Raider the heck alone?



What an EXCELLENT point. I liked the first GTA....I tried the second one but it didn't grab me. San Andreas will probably never be played by me. (My loss I guess) The violence is numbing and it doesn't contribute to the gameplay...so while it WAS innovative at the time it's now boring. (Tho I STILL like to escape from police/baddies)


I've got nothing against violence per se...... but the wholesale graphic disrepectful nature of some gamesplay mechanics does ride over the top. (I still have never seen a game where you can pick up a prostitute and get 'gratification'......my point being was it REALLY necessary?)


Now look at Lara...(To tell truth I was dissappointed in the last version)... yeah there is violence, but it's not the wholesale sadistic nature of other games that media are herelding as the be all end all. I don't get bored trying to figure out puzzles and other gameplay elements, like I did with the basic gameplay og GTA (for example)

I'd actually prefer NON-HUMAN COMBATANTS. It adds to the 'science fiction fantasy element. Tell me you weren't oddly facinated and even a little scared the first time you entered the Atlantian Pyramid. You saw those huge eggs and you knew you weren't in Kansas anymore. The first egg that burst had you jumping. Admit it... I did.


Anyway, I just prefer the exploration aspect.... I surely don't play because of perfectly round bouncy polygons. I also don't think I'd play if Lara was Lenny. That doesn't make me a 13...(or 43) year old perv. It just means I appreciate a well thiught out character developement. She's a hero of bygone ages..... she doesn't have to say much.... you know she's guided by right principals.... and in the end she'll win.

How many game characters can lay claim to those character traits.
SURELY NOT GTA...or many other gameplay characters.

catharton
28th Dec 2004, 10:49
First off, I love TR games and I love the characters and settings, and I will be buying future TR games too. I think it's a really strong general format for a game, I prefer puzzle-oriented stuff to pure shooters any day of the week.

However... there were just too many TR games in too short a space of time, they really ought to have put Lara on a break after TR3, DEFINITELY after Last Revelation. Chronicles seemed absolutely primitive when it was released, it really ought to have been billed as some kind of add-on like Unfinished Business/Golden Mask/Lost Artefact.

I guess Eidos was just too tempted by the guaranteed sales they got for each game, and too cheap to develop a next gen engine at the same time.

Maybe there ought to be some kind of rule, that you only release a new game every other year, with Unfinished Business type extra levels to fill in the gaps.

SethKoopa
13th May 2005, 17:07
I can't vote in this, because there are so many sides on this.

Now, playing TR has always been this peaceful, solitary activity for me. I agree that Lara travelling to many locations is refreshing, but it can't support itself on just that. Without a real reason as to why Lara travels to these locations, it ends up gratuitous. Like with TRIII; yes, there are reasons, but it is seen so clearly there that the levels were created beforehand and the story was then written around them, making the locations feel gratuitous. TR I and II both did a better job at keeping the relationship between locations and story intact.

I was disappointed at first at Lara's all-Egypt adventure and no costume changes in the LR, but I quickly overgrew that and began to appreciate the story. And, besides, the locations are all so many and versatile that I don't see a problem. Chronicles in particular was gratuitous, and was the downhill of the series. It just didn't 'feel' enough like a stand-alone game. The stories were uninteresting and I felt they might as well have stopped the games with the LR.