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Marine Sniper
12th Aug 2004, 04:20
I have noticed that the weapons in the list are VERY innacurate.

1) 9mm Pistol: I don't think they issued any 9mms to the troops, the only pistols that were normally issued were Colt M1911s .45, and only to commanding officers.

2) It shows as "M14 Rifle with a Scope" but it is really a M16A2, this version of the M16 had not been invented yet, the verson during VIetnam was the M16A1, which was underpowered, prone to jamming and had a short range. Look up M16A2 and M16A1 to see the difference.

3) Rocket Pistol: Never heard of a Rocket Pistol, don't think there is such thing. It is probably confused with an emergency flare gun.

4) M14 Rifle with a scope: During the war the rifle was called the XM21 or M21 when it was adopted in 1971. X stands for Experimental. The difference betewwen the Scoped M14 and M21 is that the M21 has a 2 stage trigger (to fire the round with less trigger pressure), a heavier barrel and a modified reciver. The M14 with a scope is just a simple M14 with an attached scope, which has poor accuracy over very long ranges.

5) Standard Knife: Should have the named changed to K-Bar.

Some of the weapons that had a large influence in the war and are missing in the list are: the M14 rifle, it started as the common rifle for the infantry. It was by far a much better rifle than the M16A1; with a larger caliber and better accuracy, the M14 could reach ranges that the M16A1 could not. That is why it was picked to be a sniper rifle with a few modifications.
The other weapons are the Remington 700 or M40, and Winchester 70. As the M14, the Winchester started at the hands for some snipers who had already used it for Marine shooting competitions, it was a very good and powerful rifle, which was also used by the legendary sniper Carlos Hathcock.
The Remington 700 was simply a replacement for the Winchester, for the fact that the Winchester was made before the 1920s and was hard to find replacement parts and its .30-06 ammunition. The M40 used a shorter round, but was still very capable of reaching long ranges; and had the advatage that the .308 or 7.62x51 NATO ammunition was popular at the time.

I hope there are some modifications to the weapons that would be in the game, so that it looks more realistic.

CampKillYourself
12th Aug 2004, 05:53
the m16a1 wasnt too bad of a gun for the time period in vietnam. Most veterans say they prefered it over the m14 cause it was much lighter and less recoil. But im mostly looking foward to blowing stuff up with a m-79 :D. But you did make alot of good points. Are you a Marine? Cause you know alot about weapons.

Jsans
12th Aug 2004, 15:55
you should have also metioned that no grunts had 30 round mags for the M-16 maby spec ops did.

the rocket pistol is real saw it on "tails of the gun" on the history channel i will try and find a pic of one

CampKillYourself
12th Aug 2004, 16:26
yeah i saw that one too... i watch the history channel alot

ACEofSPADES87
12th Aug 2004, 19:03
wow your right man, i just checked out the weapons section at the site. How can they confuse m14 rifle w/scope with an m16A2. and they have m14 w/scope listed twice. Hope they realized these mistakes before the release of the game.

CampKillYourself
12th Aug 2004, 20:54
they have an updated version of the official website im just not sure what it is. I noticed that too but i went to the website through eidos i believe and that mess was straightened out

Jsans
14th Aug 2004, 16:47
a question for the mods(they have played the game) about the weapons
can you switch the M-16, AK-47,M-14 and other weapons from full auto to semi auto and back?

thanks in advance

Marine Sniper
15th Aug 2004, 02:57
I was away for a bit, so I coudn't awnser any of the questions.

Reply 1: There were two versions of the M16A1, the first one was terrible and tended to jamm quite a lot, the improvement for the second version was that they added a button called the Forward Assist on the right hand side of the reciver that would actually ram the round into the chamber (you can see this done in America's Army when reloading). Even after the improvement, it still jammed sometimes. Every troop had their favorite weapons, and we can't say that everyone hated the M16A1; usually, most of the seasoned troops who were at the start of the war were issued M14s, and when the weapon change came, they were already used to the M14, so they didn't like the M16 very much.
The facts are that The M14 is heavier, more accurate, has a 7.62.X51 Cal, rarely jamms, cannot be fired well while fully auto, and has good range and punch.
On the other hand the M16A1 is lightweight, has a 5.56X45 Cal, can be fired very well in fully auto, tends to jamm at times, small punch, and is less accurate over long ranges. You pick which one you like, I would go with the M14, I don't care about the weight as long as I have a trusty rifle.

Reply 2: The 30 round mag came with the M16A2 in 1985. During the war, they would use 18 or 20 round mags to lower jamming risk. If the Rocket Pisol is in Tales of the Gun, then it's true, but I did a big search and bever found one. All I found was space pistols for kids, hehe.

Reply 7: The fire modes wil most likely be available, most games have that feature now.
The reason why I know so much about weapons is that I watch the History Channel (Tales of the Gun help a lot) and use the internet sometimes. Now I can contradict the games' weapons when they are wrong.

Jsans
15th Aug 2004, 21:13
yea i looked for the rocket pistol to but found nothing but it is real on tails of the gun the said only a few were made because it was realy inacurate(sp)
the 30rd mag was introduced in 1970 when the americans realized they only han 20 rd mags while the VC and NVA had 30rd AK mags

also there wernt two versions of the M16A1 there was the M16 then the M16A1 two slightly different guns also i heard but im not 100% sure that the M16s 5.56 is more deadly from 0-100 yards in which mose combat in vietnam occured than the 7.62 M14 round. So i think the M16A1 was better even tho it jammed more than the M14. but if you were carful and kept it clean than it was in my opinion than the M14

Hodgeh
16th Aug 2004, 20:02
The original M16 used a different gun powder compostion than the A1, and the residue built up in the receiver, which combined with other jungle crap, could prevent the bolt from hammering fully home when firing.

Thus, the A1 was introduced, using a new powder and adding the forward bolt-assist (the nob on the right side) that a solier could hit with the heel of his hand the get the bolt fully closed.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm

"1965 - 1967. Field reports from Vietnam began to look much more pessimistic. M16 rifles, issued to US troops in the Vietnam, severely jammed in combat, resulting in numerous casualties. There were some causes for malfunction. First of all, during the introduction of the new rifle and its ammunition into the service, US Army replaced originally specified Dupont IMR powder with standard ball powder, used in 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. The ball powder produced much more fouling, that quickly jammed the actions of the M16 unless the gun was cleared well and often. This pitifully combined with the fact that the initial M16 rifles were promoted by the Colt as "low maintenance", so, for the sake of economy, no cleaning supplies were procured for new M16 rifles, and no weapon care training was conducted fro the troops. As a result, soldiers did not knew how to clean their rifles, and had no provisions for cleaning, and thing soon turned bad. To add the trouble, the ball powders also had a different pressure curve, so they produced higher pressures at the gas port, giving the rise to the rate of fire, and, thus, decreasing accuracy and increasing parts wear."

imported_mike_g
17th Aug 2004, 18:07
Nice post Hodgeh. I well remember the forward assist on the A1 from my time working for Uncle Sam back in the 80's.

the whale
18th Aug 2004, 05:14
There's two M-16 A1's. The M-16 A1, and the M-16 A1 VN. Try and take a guess what the VN stands for... And maybe they don't have the right names due to the legality and copyright issues?

CKY1709
18th Aug 2004, 17:27
if you go to www.shellshockgame.com and click on the german flag on the bottom instead of the us flag it brings you into the site and you can see 3 more weapons... i think there is another machine gun, a punji booby trap, and a claymore

Jack455
19th Aug 2004, 00:06
NICE FIND! campkillyourself ... I mean CKY (:D jellyman)

edit1
There are alot of differences
-no Private section
-the last soliders diary
-music repeats
just for starters

edit2
the French site had a recent update and I noticed the M60 has a video that the American site doesn't!

CKY1709
19th Aug 2004, 01:28
haha you figured my past identity out.... but yeah i was bored so i figured i would check out the different nations and i saw new stuff so i figured i wouldnt hog and share :D

Jack455
19th Aug 2004, 02:40
Speaking of finding new info (if any one has already noticed this I'm gonna feel dumb) I've just seen the last two Pin-Up Girls. It is from a new version of render #5 for the official site. Found it here (http://www.gamewallpapers.com/wallpapers.php?titel=ShellShock%3A+Nam+%2767) check out the first shot at the top! Anyway guess I need to update that poll in the CC section.

CKY1709
19th Aug 2004, 03:15
where did you see the last two pin up girls?

Jack455
19th Aug 2004, 04:41
Ok the first wallpaper (top left) the one of a scene from base camp, all 6 pin-ups are at the top of the pic.

CKY1709
19th Aug 2004, 11:15
wow i think the the one with the girl with the helmet on is banging.... she is hott

ACEofSPADES87
19th Aug 2004, 15:35
she aint real...calm down...lol

CKY1709
20th Aug 2004, 01:36
yeah but i can pretend haha. besides you gotta admit they look pretty good.

Jack455
20th Aug 2004, 01:56
Only thing is that there is a limit on the number of views for non-members :( lol CKY can only look at his girl so many times per 24 hour period :p (unless you copy/paste. didn't try it tho, so that might not work either)

CKY1709
20th Aug 2004, 02:41
oh im way ahead of you... its my wallpaper for my comp :D

Ike
20th Aug 2004, 08:08
Originally posted by Marine Sniper
I have noticed that the weapons in the list are VERY innacurate.

1) 9mm Pistol: I don't think they issued any 9mms to the troops, the only pistols that were normally issued were Colt M1911s .45, and only to commanding officers.

Well, there were a few 9×19mm Browning Hi-Powers floating around, and the Smith Model 39 also saw some action during the time, most notably after it was modified by the Navy, adding an extended, threaded barrel, a slide-lock lever, raised, enclosed(rear) sights, and a suppressor, creating the Mk22 Mod 0. There were a few other assorted 9mm-firing pistols floating around, but the Smith is the only thing even close to issue material I can think of, and the image from the site, bad as it is, could only be depicting a 1911. To boot, it has a nickel finish. There were no M1911 or M1911A1 G.I. pistols produced with nickel finishes. These guys need to do their damned homework.


Originally posted by Marine Sniper
2) It shows as "M14 Rifle with a Scope" but it is really a M16A2, this version of the M16 had not been invented yet, the verson during VIetnam was the M16A1, which was underpowered, prone to jamming and had a short range.

Correct on the -A2 identification, which came in 1982. Depending upon what years this game is supposed to take place, the M16A1 was plagued by the military's decision to use M193 ball powder in the cartridges, which burned much dirtier than tolerances designed into the rifle itself, leading to terrible reliability issues. To make matters worse, the initial M16 rifles were promoted by the Colt as "low maintenance," so, for the sake of economy, no cleaning supplies were procured for new M16 rifles, and no weapon care training was conducted fro the troops. As a result, soldiers did not know how to clean their rifles, and had no provisions for doing so, and you can imagine the results. To add to the trouble, the ball powders also had a different pressure curve, so they produced higher pressures at the gas port, raising the cyclic rate (from a proposed 650rpm!) at one estimate to over 900rpm (!), thus, of course, decreasing accuracy and prematurely wearing the weapon.

There wasn't ever a problem with range, however, as you describe. If anything, the M193 propellants, fired from the earlier barrels with a 1:12 rifling, stabilized better (less effective wounding, but still very nasty) and ranged slightly farther than the coming SS109/1:7 rifling we have in the -A2.


Originally posted by Marine Sniper
3) Rocket Pistol: Never heard of a Rocket Pistol, don't think there is such thing.

Yeah, WTF is wrong with these people? Well, to be fair, it IS real, and when I saw their (again, terrible, WTF?) render, I instantly knew it to be the infamous Gyrojet. Originally released I believe in 1965, and earmarked (no one knows why) for possible use in Vietnam, it was a truly ****ty design, and only two Gyrojets ever made it to Vietnam, and for those guys, it was a novelty. One of them published his accounts of the weapon under the reviews section at deathwind.com, again, nothing special, and certainly nothing like the in-game footage would have us believe. The 13mm rockets weren't explosive (thank ghod, a lot of users would have certainly lost their lives on accidental detonation), they were configured as bullets. But AS bullets, they sucked. At ranges where we can expect to be using sidearms, the rockets just haven't started to accelerate to effective velocities, and as a pistol, it hit about as hard as a .22LR at about 13 feet. I have no idea why the designers of this game would choose to incorporate this dumb oddity into the game, EVEN if we're supposed to believe it fires explosive rounds, what the hell is the M79 good for, then?


Originally posted by Marine Sniper
5) Standard Knife: Should have the named changed to K-Bar.

Yeah, a Ka-Bar is a Ka-Bar, but at this point I don't expect a whole lot of weapons realism or knowledge in the game, which really turns me off of it. However, some of the footage in the actual USE of the knife in the game is what I've been waiting for in a game for a long time. I hope there are ways to choose different sentry-elimination methods; in one clip I'm almost positive the guy's going to go straight down in front of the collarbone and get the subclavian, but in another there's a hollywood-style throat-slashing, which I hope isn't going to be an option unless there's some kind of "inflict torturous, sloppy death" attack button.

I, too, hope they clean up the weapons before a demo comes out.

Jack455
20th Aug 2004, 17:33
Originally posted by CKY1709
oh im way ahead of you... its my wallpaper for my comp :D
LOL somehow I kinda figured that would be the case. :)


p.s. DANG IKE my fingers are hurting just reading that

CKY1709
21st Aug 2004, 13:23
The M16a1 was issued to the military right before the war had started. During the time period of military advisors, The u.s. Shiped thousands of AR 15 to vietnam to be used by the south vietnam army, as well as by army rangers. The army reported that with a few minor adjustments this weapon would be perfect for jungle warfare. So Mcnamara ordered a military rifle based on the AR 15, hence the Colt-armalite M16 was created and pushed off the market at a rate of 45,000 a month. The M16 made it to vietnam in time for the war and was used by most military forces. Mcnamara wanted a gun that all military forces could use together and found the m16 to be perfect for all of them. The guns were origionaly prone to jamming, because it was thought to have been a self cleaning gun, so no cleaning kits were issued. Troops also learned quickly not to leave a round loaded because overnight the moisture would swell bullets and wouldnt fire, making the GI have to rip apart the gun in the middle of a fire fight unjam the gun and start fighting again. When cleaning kits were issued the jamnin almost completely stoped and was well like by the military.


- I watched modern marvels - The M16. on the history channel last night so i figured i would tell some things that i learned last night.

Jsans
21st Aug 2004, 16:00
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DGyrojet%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3DFP-tab-img-t%26cop%3Dmss%26tab%3D3&h=200&w=333&imgcurl=www.projectrho.com%2Frocket%2Fgyrojet.jpg&imgurl=www.projectrho.com%2Frocket%2Fgyrojet.jpg&size=12.2kB&name=gyrojet.jpg&rcurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projectrho.com%2Frocket%2Frocket3l.html&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projectrho.com%2Frocket%2Frocket3l.html&p=Gyrojet&type=jpeg&no=2&tt=43

if you go there and scroll down there is a pic and like a paragraph about the gyrojet

jf1050
21st Aug 2004, 18:04
Actually in 1967 the M16A1 rifle was modified and fixed and cleaning kits given out and there wasn't as many problems with it afterthe first year of standerd use. The rocket pistol was an actual pistol to. It used a special bullet that used rocket fuel, so the ammo was like a mini rocket. There was a problem though, when you fired the weapon the round started out so slow you could put your hand at the end of the barrel and stop the round
and colt M1911 was issued to grunts.

ACEofSPADES87
21st Aug 2004, 18:45
Originally posted by CKY1709
The M16a1 was issued to the military right before the war had started. During the time period of military advisors, The u.s. Shiped thousands of AR 15 to vietnam to be used by the south vietnam army, as well as by army rangers. The army reported that with a few minor adjustments this weapon would be perfect for jungle warfare. So Mcnamara ordered a military rifle based on the AR 15, hence the Colt-armalite M16 was created and pushed off the market at a rate of 45,000 a month. The M16 made it to vietnam in time for the war and was used by most military forces. Mcnamara wanted a gun that all military forces could use together and found the m16 to be perfect for all of them. The guns were origionaly prone to jamming, because it was thought to have been a self cleaning gun, so no cleaning kits were issued. Troops also learned quickly not to leave a round loaded because overnight the moisture would swell bullets and wouldnt fire, making the GI have to rip apart the gun in the middle of a fire fight unjam the gun and start fighting again. When cleaning kits were issued the jamnin almost completely stoped and was well like by the military.


- I watched modern marvels - The M16. on the history channel last night so i figured i would tell some things that i learned last night.

Ya I saw that too. But you failed to mention that another reason for the jamming of the m16 was becaused the army decided to switch from stick powder to the ball powder so they can get longer range.

CKY1709
22nd Aug 2004, 15:08
i thought they said the army recieved cleaning kits after the first year.. i believe in 66'