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Nizze
28th Jul 2004, 11:49
I recently saw the trailer and notised that the cavalry attacked wery scattered, and if i rember right from the history lessens they didn´t. i know that the game is in a early stage but that has to be fixed.

Arctic_Wolf
29th Jul 2004, 03:33
I didn't see any scattered or scattering cavalry, but I did see something which really does need to be fixed.

An Austro-Hungarian (Black, Yellow and White striped falg?) cavalry unit fleeing/charging through a Prussian (Two Black lines and some kind of bird/hawk flag?) formation of infantry and not one of them was trampled, scattered or in any disturbed. :eek:

Nizze
29th Jul 2004, 10:35
I had wrong about the scattered cavalery, they were so few so they loked scattered .

:confused: what is wrong whit the flags?:confused:

Arctic_Wolf
29th Jul 2004, 16:19
Theres nothing wrong with the flags as far as I can see, i'm just not sure which nation they belong to.

Nizze
29th Jul 2004, 17:17
Black, Yellow and White striped flag is Austro-Hungarian
Two Black lines and some kind of bird/hawk flag is Prussia.

Arctic_Wolf
29th Jul 2004, 21:36
Yay I was right!

Willmore
30th Jul 2004, 00:19
Since we are on the topic of flags:

Russia had different flags for different regiments.

Here's a reference web-site:

http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/russindx.htm#table7


And I am fairly sure that the Black-Yellow-White flag is that of Russia, however it is from the second-half of the 19th century. Prior to that they had a different one.


The Austrian flag is the one with the yellow background and the Black eagle, I believe. (On screenshots, I think)

Willmore
30th Jul 2004, 06:26
Ok, I've done a bit more research on the russian flag of those times.

It seems that until mid 19-th century, Russia didn't have a set russian flag. There was royal familie's flag, like everyone else, but there was no flag.

There was however a naval flag for all russian ships, they it was the flag of St. Andrei (Not the Scotish St. Andrew, I believe):

http://russia.rin.ru/pictures/5958.gif

prior to that flag, the navy had the white-blue-red flag, that is the current flag of Russia. That flag was stripped, and given to the commercial navy.

So, we have a flag for tha navy and the commercial navy.

The Black-Yellow-White flag didn't come into official use until 1858. However it was used on special occasions, the first being in 1815, after the Napoleonic wars so it will not fit in the Game's context.

Peter the Great of Russia used the white-blue-red flag with a golden eagle as the flag of the "King of Moscow", essentially king of Russia. This was in 1699, so let's work forward.

He then europe-nised it, be erasing anything that is not european, thus removed the eagle, the crosses, everything. To leave the modern Russian flag.

So, it seems, as I haven't found any flag that came after that, that the modern Russian flag was used as the national flag. The St. Andrei flag was used in the navy.

Now, I'm going to look into the other flags, as they are seen on the screenshots, and in the video.

Vic Flange
2nd Aug 2004, 13:33
Originally posted by Arctic_Wolf
An Austro-Hungarian (Black, Yellow and White striped falg?) cavalry unit fleeing/charging through a Prussian (Two Black lines and some kind of bird/hawk flag?) formation of infantry and not one of them was trampled, scattered or in any disturbed. :eek:
As you can imagine, this was due to the code being pretty early and the problem's been addressed now. You can also form squares to repel cavalry charges, which is looking quite nice at the moment...

Willmore
3rd Aug 2004, 00:00
How about the flag ? Will the Russian Flag issue be adressed ?

Vic Flange
3rd Aug 2004, 14:36
There're quite a few things in the trailer which are non-final; flags are one of these.

Arctic_Wolf
5th Aug 2004, 01:45
Originally posted by Vic Flange
As you can imagine, this was due to the code being pretty early and the problem's been addressed now. You can also form squares to repel cavalry charges, which is looking quite nice at the moment...

[homer simpson impression] mmmm... square formation... *drool* [/homer simpson impression] :D

Walter
6th Aug 2004, 08:36
Oh, anyone that´s seen a man with a trumphet? Very amusing to hear the sound of roar, horses and hoves with trumphet sound in the bakground Tally-Ho!

Frederick the Great
8th Aug 2004, 23:11
In a real Napoleonic Scenario, Cavalry had almost a zero chance of breaking steady Infantry formations head on. But if the Cavalry catches the infantry on the flank...:eek:

Slaughter.

Willmore
9th Aug 2004, 01:54
thus the use of squares.

Willmore
9th Aug 2004, 03:35
Returning to flags for a second, Since the game will start in 1780 or 1790.

Before 1790, France used a Royal flag with the lillies some angels the crown - the whole shabang.

From 1792 to 1794 they had a red-white-blue tricolor, but not the modern one, but a reversed one - horizontal, like the Russian or dutch flag. Then from 1794-1814 they had the normal tricolor. After that, they had another royalist flag with white predominating.


Out of these flags, which one will be in the game ? Napoleonic tricolor ? The Royalist one because that's when the game starts ?

A solution for this could be the possibility of either selecting the government at the start, making predetermined events (starts/ends of revolutions) or maybe have the player choose when the revolutions occur like in Civilization - creating pluses and minuses for both. Like a popular support for a republic
and maybe have more power when there is a monarchy. After all that was the age of revlution - France, America, I'm sure that Austria, Prussia and Russia would not have had much difficulty with revolutionary sentiments, were there a reason.

Vic Flange
9th Aug 2004, 09:41
One of the reasons why people like this period so much was the amount of change that occurred. While this makes the era very interesting, from a dev point of view we won't be able to replicate every change in flags, uniforms etc without things getting out of hand. With this in mind, we have to take a 'middle ground' on these issues. Uniforms are a particular problem as they often weren't standardised, so we'll use the best representations we can.

Re: Willmore's comment - you will be able to choose your political system in the game.

Kai-Arne
12th Aug 2004, 19:44
Originally posted by Frederick the Great
In a real Napoleonic Scenario, Cavalry had almost a zero chance of breaking steady Infantry formations head on. But if the Cavalry catches the infantry on the flank...:eek:

Slaughter.

Right! Hopefully we'll see chanceless cavalry-formation attacking squares and dying as a result of that!
mmmmmh... chanceless cavalry mmmmmmh...beer mmmmh...donuts... okay I need something to eat and drink now! Bye!

Willmore
12th Aug 2004, 23:34
this would also be a matter of morale and discipline, and undisciplined square might crumble, when they see acavlry attacking, allowing for several horsemen to get through, and wreck havoc inside the square.

Walter
16th Aug 2004, 06:29
I wonder how the moral of troops work in this game, hopefully better than in TW series. Personally the stages of moral are to few, Seen any trailers from Battle of the Middle Earth? The creators have made a really good thing there about moral and so on. For example; An Gondorian infantry squad vs orcs, the Gondorians are easy winners and you can see that in the game, altough if you put Gondorian infantry vs Troll, you can see that the Gondorians are panicing, a good element, but there are several differences between these two games. But I think that is a good idea.

Willmore
16th Aug 2004, 07:38
The best possible thing would be to tie discipline, morale, technological superiority/inferiority together.


Where technological superiority would greatly affect the morale, while morale would affect discipline, and discipline would grant a higher victory chance.

One interesting thing, if a regiment has high discipline, good technology, but bad morale, it would not scatter, because of the high discipline. While not amount of morale would be able to overcome low discipline, when fighting a superior enemy.

Lonewulf44
25th Aug 2004, 18:19
This really applies to calvery as well as infantry.....I hope that calvery are not at the mercy of artillery....as in cossaks....the Mortors are simply insanely good and damaging.....so much so that they almost single handly can neglect calvery's purpose. The range on the mortors was so great that even horsemen couldnt get around them....I'm really hoping this game gets calvery right....and allows them to be used....Napoleon style...
Long Live Prussia!!!

Willmore
25th Aug 2004, 19:39
Ok, let's do this together:

C-A-V-A-L-R-Y

heh, sorry couldn't resist it.

Lonewulf44
25th Aug 2004, 20:09
Lol!, I was in a hurry and was just too lazy for a spell check. Thanks for the lesson though..... :p I reeli ez ah goode studint! awnest! :cool:

Long Live the Spelling Bee!.............and Prussia!

Ragnar_NZ
7th Sep 2004, 19:52
The thing about squares is that they're noisy and look like a hedge with lots of sharp spiky bits, and horses will not charge them. They will run right up, halt at the last second, throw the riders, mill around and get shot to pieces. Its not that they can't break a square, they won't. They won't run into burning buildings either unless their eyes are covered and they really trust their riders.

If you think about it, riflemen have guns, not braced spears. They couldn't stop the impact of a charging horse. There have been cases where horses have broken squares - and they didn't even have to be alive. One dead horse with full momentum smashing into a formation, shattering it. It has happened. Can't remember where I read it, but I did.

Ragnar_NZ
7th Sep 2004, 20:07
One of the reasons why people like this period so much was the amount of change that occurred. While this makes the era very interesting, from a dev point of view we won't be able to replicate every change in flags, uniforms etc without things getting out of hand. With this in mind, we have to take a 'middle ground' on these issues. Uniforms are a particular problem as they often weren't standardised, so we'll use the best representations we can.

Yay! Thankyou! I bought a pack of playing cards from Waterloo last time I was there, and every card had a picture of a different uniform. They were all such beautiful uniforms, and all different colours. Reds, blues, greens, blacks, and that was just the French! Every regiment had its own dashing uniform in the latest most fashionable colour. I remember the Prussians were predominantly black, but by no means all black, and everybody else was everything else. I would hate to have to command a 18th C army in authentic Napoleonic colours. I'd just shoot everybody wearing blue, starting with my own lancers. "You! Go attack that column. Artillery! Kill everybody. Make sure no one walks away, too confusing."

Willmore
8th Sep 2004, 05:25
Originally posted by Ragnar_NZ
The thing about squares is that they're noisy and look like a hedge with lots of sharp spiky bits, and horses will not charge them. They will run right up, halt at the last second, throw the riders, mill around and get shot to pieces. Its not that they can't break a square, they won't. They won't run into burning buildings either unless their eyes are covered and they really trust their riders.

If you think about it, riflemen have guns, not braced spears. They couldn't stop the impact of a charging horse. There have been cases where horses have broken squares - and they didn't even have to be alive. One dead horse with full momentum smashing into a formation, shattering it. It has happened. Can't remember where I read it, but I did.

I remember something like in one of the Sharpe books.

Willmore
8th Sep 2004, 05:28
Originally posted by Ragnar_NZ
Yay! Thankyou! I bought a pack of playing cards from Waterloo last time I was there, and every card had a picture of a different uniform. They were all such beautiful uniforms, and all different colours. Reds, blues, greens, blacks, and that was just the French! Every regiment had its own dashing uniform in the latest most fashionable colour. I remember the Prussians were predominantly black, but by no means all black, and everybody else was everything else. I would hate to have to command a 18th C army in authentic Napoleonic colours. I'd just shoot everybody wearing blue, starting with my own lancers. "You! Go attack that column. Artillery! Kill everybody. Make sure no one walks away, too confusing."


Yeah, very confusing, it's good that the major battles were side on side, with very clear view of where the enemy is, and where to point the cannons :-)

In smaller actions, it was extremelly confusing, and you could mistake one nation for another very easily, as I remember one of the Russian cavalry types, ie. Lancers, Ulhans, Dragoons, or one of the others had an almost identical uniform as a french cavalry type.

Ragnar_NZ
9th Sep 2004, 08:03
I remember something like in one of the Sharpe books

Ummmm.... Can't remember when or where I read that. Possibly. Oops! :o

Nap_Fan
8th Oct 2004, 19:27
I think you're referring to the KGL cavalry charge depicted at the end of 'Sharpe's Sword'. This charge (and the breaking of a French square) at Garcia Hernandez pretty much happened the way Cornwell described it. Hope this is helpful.

P.S. Just realised the post I'm replying to is quite old - so apologies if this info is "old news"..

Ragnar_NZ
12th Oct 2004, 13:22
Thanks!