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Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 09:36
Seriously, what gives you the right to modify existing code for a game? I can understand why developers don't release an SDK or map editor, because users exploit the game and mock the whole experience of the full game. I like a game as it is and just think single missions that users created spoil a certain something.

Atomizer
21st Jul 2004, 10:24
Mods and player made missions add alot of life to a game, players are willy to spend alot of time building content for a game they love for no cash at all, that adds a hell of alot of length to games, and costs the developers nothing, but will most likely increase sales due to word of mouth(Counter-Strike prolly sold the most copies of Half-Life for Valve before they picked CS up and released it in its own box).
Morrowind is prolly a better example since like Thief 3, it also has no multiplayer mode, yet is still going strong thanks to a strong modding community, and is also still selling copies.

If Eidos doesnt release the tools, then either someone will make their own tools, which is very unlikely to happen, or Thief 3 will simply die out, so really, they will be losing alot of sales.
And yes I know some things that get released arent usually very good, but there will always be quality mods that get made, and just like games, word of mouth lets you choose which mods you want to try, so you can avoid possible crappy experiences.

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 13:24
You didn't answer the question.

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 13:25
Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Seriously, what gives you the right to modify existing code for a game? I can understand why developers don't release an SDK or map editor, because users exploit the game and mock the whole experience of the full game. I like a game as it is and just think single missions that users created spoil a certain something.
1 - An SDK doesn't modify the code.
2 - How do they exploit the game? And why is that a bad thing?
3 - As for making a mockery of the game experience... where did you draw that conclusion from?
4 - 'Hacking' for an SDK as you so aptly put it is not illegal when done for educational purposes like building an editor as long as you don't copy code over to the editor.

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 13:27
Originally posted by Guineapiggy
1 - An SDK doesn't modify the code.


You need to hack the code to build a SDK.

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 13:28
Read the rest. And even though that is (Partially.) the case the editor its self does not modify code. (DromEd, UnrealED and so forth do NOT change the engine.)

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 13:32
Sorry please explain how someone can partially hack? Any type of hacking is against the law. Hence why cheating sites are being sued. :rolleyes:

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 13:33
Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Sorry please explain how someone can partially hack? Any type of hacking is against the law. Hence why cheating sites are being sued. :rolleyes:
1 - It isn't hacking.
2 - No, it isn't, and I didn't say 'Partial hacking', I said you only have a partial, (The slightest.) clue what you're going on about. Read what I posted about reverse engineering for educational purposes being legal and get a clue.

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 13:37
Ignored for making this a flame war. :cool:

Finally, cheats are reverse engineering too but illegal. Can't have it both ways.

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 13:39
Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Ignored for making this a flame war. :cool:

Finally, cheats are reverse engineering too but illegal. Can't have it both ways.
Right. Yeah. Flame war. And no, cheats aren't. They're code modifications. Reverse engineering for educational purposes is disassembling the code but not making permanent changes. And if you've ignored me it's because you couldn't respond. Hopeless.

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 13:41
Originally posted by Guineapiggy
And if you've ignored me it's because you couldn't respond. Hopeless.

Hah, NO. :D It's because you want to ruin my thread and make it a flame war.

SDK's aren't for "educational purposes" they're used for making new mods and therefore it is modded code!

tealsmith
21st Jul 2004, 13:46
Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Seriously, what gives you the right to modify existing code for a game? I can understand why developers don't release an SDK or map editor, because users exploit the game and mock the whole experience of the full game. I like a game as it is and just think single missions that users created spoil a certain something.

IF Eidos/IS releases the SDK, then as long as no one attempts to pass off their work as official or tries to gain profit from it, nothing illegal is being done.

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 13:57
Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Hah, NO. :D It's because you want to ruin my thread and make it a flame war.

SDK's aren't for "educational purposes" they're used for making new mods and therefore it is modded code!
I will explain this one more time, and then I will beat you around the head with a dead fish.

You reverse engineer the game to gain an understanding of how it works. This is legal as long as you do not copy or modify code for use in the editor.

You take the UNDERSTANDING you gained from reverse engineering and write the editor. No illegal code modifciation.

Mods are not modded code. The code is left UNCHANGED and IN TACT. It merely changes the resource files.

What is so hard to understand?

Besides which, the community is requesting that ION STORM/EIDOS release an SDK, not that it's developed.

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 14:05
Well someone better hurry up and make one them, I doubt that's possible though as the load zones are going to be hard to get round unless you want maps going at 2fps!

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 14:14
Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Well someone better hurry up and make one them, I doubt that's possible though as the load zones are going to be hard to get round unless you want maps going at 2fps!
Anyone?

njcl
21st Jul 2004, 14:21
im sure if you bought an official thief deadly shadows you can do anything with the game although its not encouraged by eidos/ion storm but freely distibuting anything apart from save files/screenshots borders on the illegal,eidos owns the brand name THIEF and all its contents,saying that i know a guy who made a hitman contracts editor and he posted it to be used by others on a forum regually visited by the developers IO and it was deemed ok

Catman
21st Jul 2004, 14:22
http://www1.iastate.edu/~wsthune/cps/mrchimps/trolls.gif

Osama uses Winzip
21st Jul 2004, 14:24
Originally posted by njcl
im sure if you bought an official thief deadly shadows you can do anything with the game although its not encouraged by eidos/ion storm but freely distibuting anything apart from save files/screenshots borders on the illegal

Case closed :)

Guineapiggy
21st Jul 2004, 15:37
Erm... no... that's only if you use material you're not permited to. And no, according to the EULA (End User Liscence Agreement) you are very much restricted in what you can do with the game, though that's another debate entirely.

uberam
21st Jul 2004, 20:04
Originally posted by Guineapiggy
Mods are not modded code. The code is left UNCHANGED and IN TACT. It merely changes the resource files.
I think the term "mod", as it pertains to fan or community built missions/maps, is a misnomer and is misleading. As said, nothing was modified, it's just new maps built using the existing materials. Although, some maps (or missions) that I have played feature additional textures or skins which were added on by the builders. Still, nothing was modified just new things added on.

njcl
21st Jul 2004, 20:14
i think eidos/ion storm wouldnt be too bothered about an unnoficial editor,well it boosts sales of deadly shadows,i think the copyright is more to do with if anybody tried to make a profit on their name,well you can see their point ........:)

uberam
21st Jul 2004, 21:54
They might not mind (Eidos/IonStorm), but, I think the editor used was a third party application. If so, then it would be them who would have to release the editor, so long as it is within their agreement with Eidos/IonStorm. It would also be them who would not be so happy if someone hacked up their app to make it work with T3s engine.

[JpC]Shadow
22nd Jul 2004, 09:16
Look at Halo, very good example of a game that was hacked up to the core.

gar_goyle1
22nd Jul 2004, 19:47
Does the term "mod" not refer to "module"? I was under the impression that is what it stood for. If the publisher/manufacturer releases the tools for people to develope their own add-ons, then how can it be illegal? If a talented individual actually deciphers the tools and releases it without permission--for profit or not is irrelevant--would be illegal, or "hacked". I believe if enough people petition Eidos/Ion Storm, an editor will be released. If they had not released editors for Thief 1/2, do you think the franchise would still be alive and going strong THIS LONG after Thief 2 was released WITHOUT all the fan mods keeping it going? I may be way off base with this philosophy, but it is not a difficult concept to grasp. Computer code is complex and it takes a talented individual to decode and rewrite it. To do so without permission is an ethical violation of someone else's hard work, kinda like sneaking onto a golf course and playing without paying. I am not a computer programmer, but I sure as hell respect what they do. If I can get mods that were made using a freely distributed and SANCTIONED editor, HUZZA for me. If I have to pay for expansions, then so be it. There is a fine line between "legal" and "illegal" code-breaking, make sure YOU know the difference.

DreXor
24th Jul 2004, 15:29
well taking a first hand experience into this : dungeonsiege...

i got that game a while ago and found out there was a SDK so i tinkered, learned and started writing several maps and mods. one of which was a speed mod ( which people do with the Thief series anyhow by fubbing around in the ini files ).. personally i'd love to see a SDK for the Thief series, because the same missions become dull after a while. With DungeonSiege, the original 2 maps were awesome, but there were 2 more maps done by fans that were incredible additions to the game.

a Mod ( Module ) is an additional component that changes something IN the game, not the game itself as was touched on before.

as for this thread's original question, hacking for a SDK :
hacking or decompiling or reverse engineering or whatever term you care to use to describe it is acceptable, it's not against the copyrights, BUT once you do so, MAKING an SDK would require to include at least some portions of the original source for it to work properly, even something as simple as clip values, for personal use, fine, you're not breaking the rights, but making it distributed without permission of the right's owner is.

so in summary, no it's not, sharing it afterwards would be, and mod packs, unless approved by the copyright holder, is also a violation. if the SDK is publicly released, free or sold, that includes a EULA which permits the making of mods.


and in Post Script (PS) perhaps you should read the EULA for most any software you purchase, instead of clicking the i agree button and ignoring it, by legal rights, if a company declares it in their EULA they could pretty much do whatever they wanted, because you're agreeing to it.

Rockn-Roll
24th Jul 2004, 21:46
Osama uses Winzip - check your EULA. If it looks to you like you can't do anything like make a new level and share that level (not the code...just a non-executable data file) with others then don't do it. But, if others have the understanding that they can do it then are you saying that you object because you feel it ruins the game for you somehow?

Dude...there has already been a president set by gamers and game manufacturers to the extent that we are allowed to create new data files and distribute them provided that we do not include any source code nor any original data files...the files must be built from scratch. If you see something in the EULA that prevents you from sharing files with other people then don't do it. But, FYI...there is nothing you can do about it since there is no exchange of money then I guarantee that the FBI will not be investigating any such claims.

As a matter of fact game developers are eager to see what the fans can do with their game. It gives them insight into what the fans want in the game, and use it to determine what will go into the next game. It also gives game developers an applicant base to hire from cause the mod'rs will be familiar with the technology and will have proven skills.

You seem new to the gaming environment so perhaps you could check some of the other game developers, for example idsoftware recently hired a company formed by mod'rs called Splash Damage to develop a multiplayer modification to their game Return To Castle Wolfenstein. Interestingly enough idsoftware and Activision released the game for free! Yep, you can just download this commercial quality game for nothing more than an internet connection, then play the game as much as you want. Other idsoftware titles such as Quake actually have two compiled files (so does Thief by the way) with one of them being the game engine which we are not allowed to modify, and a game program which we can modify in any way we can...and share it with others as long as we distribute it for free. Also, if you wish you can create your own levels and share them. But, that's not the only company. Sierra's Half-Life developed by Valve software is another game for which there are tons of mods.

Actually, the only illegal activity that would draw attention is for a known terrorist to have this technology. Erm...that would mean anyone supporting people like Osama Ben Laden...uh...apparently like you. Agent Smith, "We need a trace running."

rob444
25th Jul 2004, 00:33
It has been stated in court that the Random Access Memory (RAM) belongs to YOU and you can do anything with the data within it. So people could change game code trough the memory (trainers etc.) without breaking a law. So you can do ANYTHING to any copyrighted material as long as it's in the memory. Pretty nice law huh? This could also be a way to create maps and really cool mods if you know what you are doing ;)

Stile451
25th Jul 2004, 01:18
EULAs are invalid. They expect you to agree to a contract before you've had a chance to read it when you buy a game, which you can't return once is opened, and which the publisher will not reimburse you for if you don't agree to it. The EULA is not publicly viewable anywhere prior to purchase. It's not a valid contract if the participants don't get to read it before agreeing to it(purchase is the agreement in this case).

However, copyrights cover the main part of what the EULA wants, except it's only for copying. Other laws prevent the modification of code but only in some countries(such as the US) and normally only if you don't own(as in never bought) the game. There are laws against the use of copyrighted material, but none about making new material, even if it's going to replace the original material.


As for creating an editor, even if you need to look at the code(hacking/cracking requires a change in the code, which is only illegal in the United States, and it isn't happening there so there is no argument here) it's fully legal unless you come by the code in an illegal way(such as the Half Life 2 source code theft).

As for new content being worse than the original, then yes, there is some really crappy missions that will be made, but there will also be missions that will surpass those created by the dev team(look at Thief and Thief 2 as examples). Two members of the dev team were recruited from the mod community.

r1cht3r
26th Jul 2004, 06:43
i just read this and i'm stoned like mad but yeah..wtf is with osama uses winzip..got no brains or what? you must be like 12. -this- is a flame you moron

Rockn-Roll
26th Jul 2004, 18:55
Originally posted by Salvage
However, copyrights cover the main part of what the EULA wants, except it's only for copying. Other laws prevent the modification of code but only in some countries(such as the US) and normally only if you don't own(as in never bought) the game. There are laws against the use of copyrighted material, but none about making new material, even if it's going to replace the original material.


Actually the US copyright laws written in 1976 does cover derivative works. I know cause I've copyrighted several programs myself. Some other contries do not have any protection and others have minimal protection. But, in the US it's illegal to start with someones program code and start modifying it. However, if you start creating a program from scratch that does the same thing then that's OK. But, if you do that then you had better be able to prove that you didn't reverse engineer the other code, or use any of the intellectual property in it. Alternatively, there is a clause in the copyright laws which enables libraries and learning institutions to make limited copies for educational purposes, but I have not seen the Thief3:DS source code available in the library yet.

OK, now that I've gotten that out of the way. Copyright laws can not restrict you from using the software along with other software or files. In other words you can create new files which contain new levels and such without violating any laws. You just can't modify the existing files, or distribute any of the existing files if you share your files.

For example, if Thief3:DS was just one huge executable file that contained everything, then the copyright laws would make it illegal to modify and distribute it. However, if the files are seperated into game engine, game program, game missions, game resources, etc. then you can create new missions etc. and distribut them.

Everyone does know that Eidos provided sample files for us to use for making missions don't you? Take a look in the content folder...some of those files contain the information necessary to create new files for new missions.

MrWynd
26th Jul 2004, 20:33
"mod" refers to both "module" and "modification"

kelticpete
2nd Jul 2007, 04:28
Seriously, what gives you the right to modify existing code for a game? I can understand why developers don't release an SDK or map editor, because users exploit the game and mock the whole experience of the full game. I like a game as it is and just think single missions that users created spoil a certain something.

oblivion and morrowind of good games made BETTER by people changing stuff. in fact, some mods MAKE THE GAME HARDER.