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Morpheus445
5th Jun 2004, 14:46
It's obvious that I need a new graphics card to play thief 3, and so, can anyone make some suggestions for cards? I'd rather the cheapest I can get because I'm poor.

Quillan
5th Jun 2004, 14:52
What's your upper limit price?

thebeav111
5th Jun 2004, 15:13
go with ATI no matter what, with all the cheating on benchmarks and sheet that NVidia has done I will never trust them, plus my ATI Radeon 9000 64 mb outperforms my brothers NVidia FX 5200 128 mb. Also, NVidia doesn't support 24 bit colour, which Halflife 2 is gonna use, so...

You might wanna wait a bit cause the newer cards are coming out so the old ones are about to go down in price, if you have no price limit, Radeon 9800 XT (256 mb), or the newer ones when they come out.

Andrew Beaver

LeMartin
5th Jun 2004, 15:14
I think that the ATi Radeon 9600 SE or the nVidia FX 5200 are able to run the game at 800*600 without many problems, but on a low graphics setting.

I recommend the Radeon 9600 SE as the cheapest card with hardware Direct X 9.0 from ATi. But it's a really dumbed down cousin of the Radeon 9600 card.

The FX 5200 from nVidia isn't very fast or very powerful, but it is pretty smart, ha hardware Direct X 9 supporrt and can run Thief - Deadly Shadows at 800*600 on low details if you have a medium to fast CPU with some RAM.

I think that a 1 GHZ CPu, 256 MB Ram, FX 5200 (or Radeon 9600 SE) system would be enough to give you a close to smooth (20ish fps) in 800*600 on low details (not a huge visual difference between max and min in this game)...
I say this considering that you said you want to buy the cheapest card that will allow you to play the game...

But then again, you could tell us your system and your budget so we could make better recommendations....

TheBoss
5th Jun 2004, 15:27
Avoid the Radeon 9600 SE at any cost it's been horrible stripped down compared to the Radeon 9600 Pro/XT having it's Memory Interface downed to 64-bit from the normal 128-bit all the other versions have. If you really want a Radeon 9600, then buy minimum the normal Radeon 9600. I highly recommend the Radeon 9600 pro and XT version which has higher Pixel Fillrate, Engine Clock and Memory Clock that speeds games up alot.

LeMartin
5th Jun 2004, 15:31
Originally posted by TheBoss
Avoid the Radeon 9600 SE at any cost it's been horrible stripped down compared to the Radeon 9600 Pro/XT having it's Memory Interface downed to 64-bit from the normal 128-bit all the other versions have. If you really want a Radeon 9600, then buy minimum the normal Radeon 9600. I highly recommend the Radeon 9600 pro and XT version which has higher Pixel Fillrate, Engine Clock and Memory Clock that speeds games up alot.

The man said he wnated the cheapest thing capable of running Thief - Deadly Shadows. I KNOW video cards and would no recommend the SE's to anyone, except to those who want cheap video cards...

FrozenNorth
5th Jun 2004, 15:41
I would suggest the Ati Radeon 9600pro or 9600XT. If you are low on cash buy the 9600pro and flash it with the XT bios and there, you have an 9600XT card :D
NOTE: Flashing the card's bios means that the warranty ends, so if you break your card then you have to buy a new one...

TheBoss
5th Jun 2004, 15:42
I know but I woudn't recommend anyone a Radeon 9600 SE for gaming and I know the normal Radeon 9600 is also pretty cheap so I suggest scouting around looking for a good bargin.

Neutrino64
5th Jun 2004, 15:55
Nvidia Geforce 4 Ti4200 is a decent card. I have the Ti4400 and it works great. I run thief at 1024x768 with almost almost all details at max. Though I have AA and AF turned off.

FrozenNorth
5th Jun 2004, 15:58
Originally posted by Neutrino64
Nvidia Geforce 4 Ti4200 is a decent card. I have the Ti4400 and it works great. I run thief at 1024x768 with almost almost all details at max. Though I have AA and AF turned off.

I can't be 100% positive but that sounds like total crap to me! Gf4 ti4200 is quite an old card now and it doesn't have hardware DX9 support. Thief3 requires DX9 support to run at max if I'm not wrong? In addition that card is so slow that it can't be possible to run the game as good as you claim. My friend has Ti4800, 768mt ddr333MHz memory and a 2300MHz processor and he runs the game at 1024x768 and almost at minimum details...

silo
5th Jun 2004, 15:59
I had to upgrade my graphics card to play the game. I bought an ATI Radeon9800 Pro. with only 128 mb. It works great....The 256 was $150 more I think......I didn't think I needed it.

LeatherMan
5th Jun 2004, 16:14
Avoid anything ATI calls an SE, period. The crippled DX9 capable 9600se performs worse in many games than the DX8.1 capable Radeon 8500, 9200, and GF4 Ti4200. It has even worse performance than the FX 5200 in games that don't utilize Pixel Shader 2.0.

See this article (http://www4.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/index.html) for a good comparison of graphics cards.

LeMartin, you should be ashamed for recommending the 9600se to anyone who plays PC games.

Tafferstatic
5th Jun 2004, 20:32
The Radeon 9600XT is a steal at ~$179. Works great on all my games here :) I still prefer nVidia's quality, but you mentioned a budget, so it might be best to go with ATI for now.

/.t

MrWynd
5th Jun 2004, 20:39
buy this:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-286&depa=0

ATI Radeon 9800 pro - you'll be set for a while with one of these and the price isnt too bad.

Neutrino64
5th Jun 2004, 20:44
Originally posted by FrozenNorth
I can't be 100% positive but that sounds like total crap to me! Gf4 ti4200 is quite an old card now and it doesn't have hardware DX9 support. Thief3 requires DX9 support to run at max if I'm not wrong? In addition that card is so slow that it can't be possible to run the game as good as you claim. My friend has Ti4800, 768mt ddr333MHz memory and a 2300MHz processor and he runs the game at 1024x768 and almost at minimum details...

I didn't claim the Ti4200 would run it that well. I said I had the Ti4400. I was merely saying for a really cheap card that will run the game alright the 4200 is a pretty good choice in my opinion. As for my claims about the 4400 here's my specs:

Athlon XP 2500+
512 meg PC2700 ram
Geforce Ti4400
Latest Nvidia drivers

Here's what I run the game at:

Resolution: 1024x768
Shadow Detail: Full
Level of Detail: 3/4 full
Low texture detail: Off
Multisampling:1
Bloom: Off

And I get around 30 fps (It can dip lower in some areas, but I haven't noticed it being a problem.)

LeMartin
5th Jun 2004, 23:06
Originally posted by LeatherMan
Avoid anything ATI calls an SE, period. The crippled DX9 capable 9600se performs worse in many games than the DX8.1 capable Radeon 8500, 9200, and GF4 Ti4200. It has even worse performance than the FX 5200 in games that don't utilize Pixel Shader 2.0.

See this article (http://www4.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/index.html) for a good comparison of graphics cards.

LeMartin, you should be ashamed for recommending the 9600se to anyone who plays PC games.

YEAH, right, as if... Listen, my cousin has a computer equiped with a Radeon 9200 SE.

AMD AthlonXP 1800+
Epox Via KT400
256 DDr Ram
PowerColor ATi Radeon 9200 SE 64 DDr Ram @ 64 bits.

The machine I listed is good enough for medium details in 800*600 in Prince of Persia - The Sands of Time and in Need For Speed Underground.

I have a friend with this spec:

AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1 GHZ
Jetway VIA KT266 A
256 DDr Ram
Soltek FX 5200 64 DDr Ram @ 128 Bits.

This machine was able tu run Prince of Persia - SoT and NfS - U ar max details in 800*600.

The SE series of video cards is NOT a gaming card. BUT, the man said he wanted THE CHEAPEST CARD CAPABLE OF RUNNING THIEF - DEADLY SHADOWS . You're recommending the very fine ATi Radeon 9600 which costs 126 $ (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-291&depa=1) 126$

I said that an ATi Radeon 9600 SE should run the game and that I recommend it instead of an ATi Radeon 9200.
The ATi Radeon 9600 SE has better performance than the ATi Radeon 9200 in Direct X 9.0 games like Thief - Deadly Shadows, BECAUSE the Radeon 9600 SE has HARDWARE Direct X 9.0 support while the ATi Radeon 9200 has ONLY Direct X8.1 support AND THE ATi RADEON 9600 SE COSTS 70 $ (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-327&depa=1) REMEMBER THAT THE MAN SAID HE WANTED - THE CHEAPEST - CARD CAPABLE OF RUNNING THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a review from a guy who said that his Radeon 9200 (54$) ran the game pretty well in 800*600. http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39692
Here's a link to a VGA Card test of a Direct X 9.0 game which proves my performance point. (http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga-charts-09.html)

Sure, in Direct X 8.1 games, the Radeon 9200 (non SE) is faster, but the man wanted a card for Thief - Deadly Shadows, a Direct X 9.0 game... (http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga-charts-06.html)

So yeah, buying a Radeon 9600 SE or a Radeon 9200 would be a mistake, but they are the cheapest new cards, along with the FX 5200 capable of running the game.

I also find it very amusing that you compare the Radeon 9200 and the Radeon 9600 SE to cards like the Radeon 8500 and the GeForce 4 Ti 4200 which are as fast as an Radeon 9600 PRO in Direct X 8.1 games...( http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga-charts-06.html )...

Anyway, we're fighting over nothing because the man did not say how much he could spend...

bluestorm
6th Jun 2004, 00:19
I got the ATI radeon 9200 at rufly $100 tho it plays to my likings and nothen that annoys me im fit as a fiddle with the game play,, i'm from a hick town anyone guess that as of yet? hehehehe

bluestorm
6th Jun 2004, 00:39
WOW LeMartin thats quite a post there:D

but the ATI 9200 does support the 9.0 direct x,, tho i cant rate any of the cards above the 9200 so i cant say much there but on the direct x support,,
I wouldent Avoid any of the ATI cards as this game doesnt play on a fast frame rate or game play, you stop and listen and look around its not like a fast space shooter game like wing commander comes to mind,, well thats all i can think of as right now.. but some can think of better games that need a fast frame rate.

but ya id agree with LeMartin dont put down a game card, and i can see your point in all this LeMartin its what needed to be said :D

Stereophile
6th Jun 2004, 01:53
Morpheus, if you can pony up the money buy an ATI 9600 Pro. 109 bucks. Pretty damn cheap and is decent enough.9600 Pro Good Deal (http://www.atacom.com/program/print_html_new.cgi?cart_id=5799865_68_2_60_22&Pagecode=SEARCH_ALL&Item_code=VIDA_ATIX_96_PR&USER_ID=www)
If you want to spend even less, get a GF 4 ti4200. It's about the same as a 9600 Pro but without the latest bells and whistles. I have one I would sell cheaply. Not DX9, but a powerful card and is a better choice then a newer but weaker card, like a FX5200.

If you really want the best bang for your buck though, a 9800 Pro is awesome. I just ordered one to replace my GF 4 ti4200 128.
It was running Thief okay at 800X600 with max details, bloom on, and low shadows but would sometimes drop to 15 fps in a heavy fight. I don't like to turn settings down at all ! I'm hoping a 9800 Pro will be able to handle 1024x768 everything max with maybe X8 AF and not go below 30. We shall see.

Tafferstatic
6th Jun 2004, 04:00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4135901598&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

Problem solved. Bare-ass low price, nice card. :)

/.t

LeMartin
6th Jun 2004, 09:19
Blue Storm, the Radeon 9200 does indeed support Direct X 9, but only software.

Here, take a look:
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9200/radeon9200/specs.html

Full support for DirectX ® 8.1 programmable pixel and vertex shaders in hardware
1.4 pixel shaders support up to 22 instructions and up to 6 textures per rendering pass
1.1 vertex shaders support vertex programs up to 128 instructions
Complete feature set also supported in OpenGL ® via extensions
Programmable shaders provide enhanced 3D effects in over 100 existing and upcoming game titles

LeMartin
6th Jun 2004, 09:24
Originally posted by Tafferstatic
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4135901598&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1

Problem solved. Bare-ass low price, nice card. :)

/.t

Could not have said it better myself. I have a GeForce 4 Ti 4200 64 DDr and it runs smooth as hell in ANY new game, played Far Cry at 1024*768, with pretty high details (almost all of them on high)...and it ran smooth (30+ fps). It's worth the bucks...
I recommended a Direct X 9.0 card because they run better in Thief - DS... but a Ti 4200 will do the job nicely as well...

mardi
6th Jun 2004, 09:29
Originally posted by FrozenNorth
I would suggest the Ati Radeon 9600pro or 9600XT. If you are low on cash buy the 9600pro and flash it with the XT bios and there, you have an 9600XT card :D
NOTE: Flashing the card's bios means that the warranty ends, so if you break your card then you have to buy a new one...

Hi, the XT has a 500mhz engine clock while the pro has 400mhz (ATI chart here (http://www.ati.com/products/radeon9600/radeon9600pro/compare.html)). I'm not a guru, and I apologize if I'm mistaken, but wouldn't over clocking it by 100mhz make it unstable?

LeMartin
6th Jun 2004, 13:30
Well normally, yeah. But ATi realised that their card had the posibillity of working at a higher frequency. If I am not mistaken, the Radeon 9600 XT has a different cooling system (lager fan) than the PRO. Simply put, the XT is a factory overclocked PRO with a larger fan + heatsink which ATi has tested and approved for stability. Sometimes, buying a Radeon 9600 Pro and overclockinig it might lead to Radeon 9600 XT type results..

Tafferstatic
6th Jun 2004, 16:49
Yep.. the extra speed was seen as safe by ATI for the average user. This is really the case with any processor of any kind - they are all capable of running faster, but the companies making them have to ensure that most folks aren't going to run into heat problems under normal conditions, so virtually all processors have a good deal of headroom that you can overclock into, provided there is proper cooling. I myself have never manually overclocked, and can't forsee myself doing so. I simply prefer the reliability of the factory default speeds and the longevity it gives m'parts. I do, however, use the Overdrive since it's not a true-to-form overclocking (ie telling BIOS to dump more juice onto it to make it run faster), since from the factory it was deemed safe and reccommended to run it at such a speed.

BFG has begun doing this with their nVidia cards as well - they're overclocked at the factory and refitted with new cooling fans/heatsinks/whatever. Nice touch, and doesn't void any warranties. I'd hoped to get the BFG Geforce 4 FK5900XT, but I simply didn't have the power supply to support it, which is something else a lot of ya might want to consider - video cards are taxing PSUs more and more lately, and before you go to the store to plunk down for your dream card, y'damn well better make sure your PSU can handle it. If you're in the 250-watt supply bracket like me, then an ATI Radeon 9600XT is about as high as you can go and still get great bang for the buck. If money's not an issue, you can buy upgraded power supplies (www.pcpowerandcooling.com) and then snap in the card of your dreams. Either way, don't try using a card that hungers for more power than your PSU can feed it.. bad things happen!

/.t

thebeav111
6th Jun 2004, 16:54
power supplies aren't that expensive, I just got a new comp and got a 400 watt for the hell of it.

Andrew

Tafferstatic
6th Jun 2004, 21:51
...$80-$150 plus the cost of the new card? Screw that.

/.t

thiefman555
7th Jun 2004, 00:34
Hey guys, I got an ATI 7500 - 64 MB. I excede all of the other requirements.

Is the only option a new card?

I'm so dumb for buying this without reading the back but that's my own falt.

thebeav111
7th Jun 2004, 00:38
I got my 350 watt for 60 canadian... dunno where you are buying your power supplies....

Andrew

4W4K3
12th Jun 2004, 15:39
www.microcenter.com go there and look for a card. they have really great prices. i got my radeon 9200 for $40 there. unfortunately i couldnt afford a 9800 PRO otherwise i would have gotten that. my mx card fried so this is a holdover card for now. check them out..great prices if u need a card or anything like that.
heres the one i got CLICK (http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0171411)

cswiger
12th Jun 2004, 18:17
Originally posted by FrozenNorth
I can't be 100% positive but that sounds like total crap to me! Gf4 ti4200 is quite an old card now and it doesn't have hardware DX9 support. Thief3 requires DX9 support to run at max if I'm not wrong? In addition that card is so slow that it can't be possible to run the game as good as you claim. My friend has Ti4800, 768mt ddr333MHz memory and a 2300MHz processor and he runs the game at 1024x768 and almost at minimum details...

No, you're not wrong. The GF ti4x00 cards are DirectX 8.1 cards, meaning they have pixel shader 1.1 and vertex shader 1.3. They support the first version of nVidia's "UltraShadow" and stencil buffer operations, so they run T:DS pretty well but not with the full quality of a DX9 card. DX 9 cards have version 2 or later of both pixel and vertex shader.

The thing is, the GF 4x00 cards have similar GPU and memory speeds to even the brand new 6800 and ATI x800 cards coming out now, so things like raw fillrate and multisampling capabilities haven't changed that much since, but the newer cards will be able to combine using high levels of aniso+AA and better shader support. Heck, for that matter, I've got a 3+ year old GeForce 2 Ultra which also had comparible fill rates, but it only has hardware T&L support, no shader support....

LeatherMan
12th Jun 2004, 21:33
Can anyone confirm that Thief - Deadly Shadows uses PS2.0 when played on a PS2.0-capable card? The XBox does not support PS2.0, and considering that Ion Storm did as little additional programming as possible to fully support the PCs superior capabilities over the XBox, I doubt they went through any additional trouble to program PS2.0 extensions into the game.

So, for the sake of argument, T - DS does not require a DX9-capable card to see it in it's full splendor (though apparently it does require a pretty powerful card to do so).

TheBoss
12th Jun 2004, 22:22
Thief 3 doesnt use PS 2.0 but PS 1.1 and 1.4