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View Full Version : What'd YOU think of the ending *Spoilers*



tealsmith
5th Jun 2004, 05:02
So, for those that have finished, what did YOU think of the ending for Deadly Shadows?

Myself? It was OK. Since this is the end of Garrett's story, I was expecting some awesome and long cinema. So much more could have been done with the ending.

For instance, couldn't we have gotton more details on who Gamall really was? I mean, we knew she WAS a Keeper at one point, then used that glyph to transform into a new body and keep everylasting life, while gaining power.... but what did she plan to do with the final glyph? What would have happened? All we get to learn in it would have been the end... big whoop. More details please?

Next, while I realize Thief is stealth and I lvoe it that way, couldn't we have had an action-ish ending. Send Thief out with a bang! For instance, I loved Viktoria's assult on Soulforge in Thief 2. Something like that would have been nice, and cold have added greatly to the wrapping up.

Next - the style of the cinema is great, except one thing - Garrett. He looks different in every single cinema. Now, normally I don't mind this too much, but the fact that he looks 12 years old in the final one is pretty stupid.

I did like the very, very last part of it. Kind of cool how things came full circle in a way.

Well, enough or my babbeling. What do YOU think?

ringo380
5th Jun 2004, 19:19
I never liked the cheesy rent-a-band rock music in any of the cutscenes, so that applies here too. You'd think with the awesome sound they made for the game, they could make some decent thiefy music to go along with the cutscenes.

And if you have to use "rock music" in some flakey attempt to make garret look like he's some kind of h4rdc0re super-badass rocker thief, they could at least attempt to make GOOD rock music.

van_HellSing PL
5th Jun 2004, 20:10
I disagree with almost every word you said in your post, ringo :)

But the fact is that T3's "rock" theme is worse than the T1&T2 ones.

As for the ending itself - nearly perfect.

zebidie
5th Jun 2004, 22:40
I was really disapointed in the ending. I was hoping for some answers, what did the final glyph do except for light up the streets and give Garret a mark. After loving every moment of the game I was really let down by the ending being such a short cut scene. I was hoping for something more epic or at very least a longer cut scene.

I was also hoping that there would be some kind of open ended mode where some of the boarded up buildings in the town were opened up and I could sneak about on some xtra mini missions or something.

REALLY disapointed, put me in a bad mood.

van_HellSing PL
5th Jun 2004, 22:51
So, destroying the Keeper's glyph magic and wiping out all their books isn't enough epic for ya? :confused:

Kn1ves
5th Jun 2004, 23:07
Answers? You wanted answers after you've had the whole plot practically drawn out for you? THIS is why they dumb games down. God, why don't you go replay the bloody game and then edit that post of yours?

I loved the ending. I loved the fact the Keepers lost thier powers and suddenly the whole city could see their previously concealed HQ through the now dispel'd glyph wards, and I loved the fact Garret became the one and only Keeper. After the glyphs are gone you understand what they were talking about when they mentioned an unknown future and "The Unwritten Times" - it was hella cool. I didn't mind the whole "Ho ho, now Garrett is the Keeper and the girl is just as gifted as Garrett was, so we've come full circle"; I mean, it was a nice hint towards the hardcore fans but when you come to think about it, it's not exactly full circle considering the prophet is dead and the glyph books of prophecies were "unwritten" (not to mention that nothing was written beyond a certain point, as they say), and Garrett was being pulled by the ear through the first two games by the Keepers. I was just blown away that after The Thief was mentioned all over the keeper writings he was the only one to inherit their powers while they were deprived of their's.

The only level I didn't like was Gamall's Lair, and I found the city levels really tedious (and rediculously tiny), but on the whole, the game f**kin' owned, HARD ;)

tealsmith
6th Jun 2004, 00:23
Originally posted by Kn1ves
Answers? You wanted answers after you've had the whole plot practically drawn out for you? THIS is why they dumb games down. God, why don't you go replay the bloody game and then edit that post of yours?


I'm sorry, I didn't know expressing my personal opinion was a crime.

Anyways, I UNDERSTOOD the plot fully, EXCEPT for what would really happen if Gamall got the final glyph. I know she'd become invincible, but that seemed to be pretty much it.

I did like how in the end, it kind of seemed like The City itself was the final glyph, kind of adding to what some have said about The City being a character.

Arcad1a
6th Jun 2004, 00:56
yeah but garret has a key and the keeprs logo is a lock so that will say he is their head guy pretty much now

well it makes me think that whoever picked garret off the street (artemus?) could actually OWN him i mean look at it this way it was the first cutscene for Thief 1

now it shows garret saying you got skills girl
but then if they made thief 4 they showed that cutscene heh people would be like who is this wierd guy? oh well who cares if he himself managed to defeat the trickster stop a religious phanatic and destroy this demonic hag from taking over the world

makes you wonder about artemus huh? and how he said if he wanted to he could of killed garret in gamails lair (i believe that was the real one becuase if not SHE would of killed him)

but i wish they explained more of the game unlike thief 1 and 2 it was more indepth and you got to guess more with thief 3 it all came at you like a flood in a the end so you missed alot and got answers for things you did not have questions for but it was a good one
i myself enjoyed hearing the rock and roll music after it was something they had from the beginning and i liked hearing it in the end

ringo380
6th Jun 2004, 00:56
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
I disagree with almost every word you said in your post, ringo :)

But the fact is that T3's "rock" theme is worse than the T1&T2 ones.

As for the ending itself - nearly perfect.

The majority of the post was about how the rock music sucked, so I'm not sure how you can disagree with even almost every word. :P

I don't think anyone can safely say that when they first hear those drums kick in that they didn't cringe to themselves in repulsion of the obviously misplaced cheese being emitted from their speakers. The same song is used in the intro/trailer thing. Ugh.

And if they didn't cringe, they're probably in the recording industry. Yay for plugging my own non-related music commentary into Thief threads.

tealsmith
6th Jun 2004, 01:07
Originally posted by Arcad1a


well it makes me think that whoever picked garret off the street (artemus?) could actually OWN him i mean look at it this way it was the first cutscene for Thief 1


I don't really get what you mean? 'OWN' him? Now that poor Artemus is dead, I don't think he'll be owning anyone...

Speaking of Keepers, does anyone know what happened to Xavier? He was First Keeper in T1 and T2, but in T3 Orland's been promoted and we never find out what happened. Did Xavier die or step down?

BOB_E
6th Jun 2004, 04:18
I thought it was a disappointing ending. Garret looked really fake. His mechanical eye was...orange...and you couldnt see a single feature of his face. I thought he was supposed to look better in the scense of the game and not while you are playing...but that was obviously proven wrong. As for the Keepers, with all their writings disappearing, and glyphs disappearing, wouldnt their faction deminish? There would be no point to their faction if the every thing they were meant for -- the glyphs and the writings -- ceased to exist. With the girl part at the end, Garret reffered to himself as a Keeper. I thought Garret was not a Keeper, but a person who trained as a Keeper but became "the other...a thief...or possibly worse". And in Thief 4, if that girl is the main character then I think I am going to be just a tad disappointed.

ringo380
6th Jun 2004, 04:24
Perhaps it means that they are going to abandon the whole fantasy aspect in Thief 4, save for one last keeper to tie in the stories, and have the girl run around doing all the realistic thief jobs and missions everyone really wants.

And maybe they'll bring back rope arrows, and ball bearings, and maybe they'll have multiplayer and co-op, and make their own new engine that lets you roof crawl through entire cities without loading but still have the best graphics ever, and still run perfectly on a 450 mhz pentium 2 with 32 megs of ram.

Or maybe not. :(

BOB_E
6th Jun 2004, 05:35
lol yea, I could definatley see that coming out on the market...lol. Definatley agree with you on the realistic mission everyone wants part ringo lol. Yea and the rooftops, engines, Mplayer, and everything else would all be grand. Maybe we should freeze our bodies for a thousand years and see if we are a little closer to that, lol.

MrWynd
6th Jun 2004, 05:54
think they'll do a thief 4?

zebidie
6th Jun 2004, 06:05
Originally posted by Kn1ves
Answers? You wanted answers after you've had the whole plot practically drawn out for you? THIS is why they dumb games down. God, why don't you go replay the bloody game and then edit that post of yours?


I followed the plot throughout the game and yes I know generally what was going on but the last cut scene was pathetic I was hoping for some twist or big revelation. And to say that "the whole plot practically drawn out for you" is just rubbish. Look on the forums here to see how many folk are confused by holes in the plot. It should have been at least a few minutes long. To me it felt like having read a great book right to the end and knowing what the finale was going to be only to turn the last page and find nothing but "THE END" written on it. I can infer what has happened from the rest of the book but that doesn't make it a good ending. I know what was meant to have happened but that doesn't stop the hollow feeling that the final cut scene left me with. There were too many unanswered questions and loose threads it felt like poor story telling.

The rest of the game talked of the artifacts and the final glyph in such an epic way that I was expecting something dramatic and yes something big did happen but the last cut scene just didn't do it justice at all. It didn't FEEL big or epic. You're meant to guess and suppose what happened from a few flashes of cut scene and notes that you read like a week ago rather than being told outright.

What was the point of the artifacts talking to you in the last mission they didn't DO anything. Supposedly, according to previous notes, just having the artifacts in your possession was meant you bring power or do something but I ran through the city for ages with all 5 and nothing happened. Its holes in the story like that that hurt the experience. I was thinking that Garret would get some kind of powers from the glyphs as the story unfolded but no.
I loved the game right up until the ending but the ending just didn't have the punch that the rest of the game did, or pull together all the threads of the story in an effective manner.
Just look at the forum here and how many different theories there are as to what actually happened, that is a sign that the story was unclear.

Imagine if placing each of the artifacts had given garret a temporary power like flight or ethereal movement so that the finally was some kind of high powered mystical chase through the streets with Gamalls minions phasing through walls or flying overhead with garret having to use all the powers to evade them right to the very end. Maybe placing the 2nd last artifact could have warped the city into some different form as the final glyph was nearly complete. That would have felt epic, as it was it was just a 10 minute run through the city and a 1 minute cut scene.

See what I'm getting at? Its got nothing to do with "Dumbing down" its about an epic climax and a fulfilled story. The earlier cut scenes covered the story well, the final one didnt.

Kn1ves
6th Jun 2004, 08:48
Anyways, I UNDERSTOOD the plot fully, EXCEPT for what would really happen if Gamall got the final glyph. I know she'd become invincible, but that seemed to be pretty much it.

She didn't want the glyph to gain power, she wanted the glyph so that she could destroy it because it's the only thing that can rob her of her seemingly invincible powers, so I guess I rest my case.


Look on the forums here to see how many folk are confused by holes in the plot.

Because most people can't even cope with Duke Nukem 3D's plot nowadays; Not because gamers got dumber but because dumber people became gamers - every netboard is flooded with illiterate people that fail to come to even the simplest conclussion, and if they leave anything a tad vague (sometimes on purpose, letting you understand the story using detached pieces of it, which, at times, can also be extremely cool) you'll see boards flooded with idiots. The biggest problem is that game comapnies are trying to appeal to that audience as well, and what do we get? To counter those "confused folks" you have people *****ing about arrow trails and glinting loot that dumb the game down because other people can't cope with some complexity and challenge that is beyond having a twitchy trigger finger and having to put some work into finishing the game, instead of having everything pointed out and drawn out for the simple minded fools that not only compose the vast majority of gamers, but the internet and the world as well.

I'm not calling any of you stupid. All I'm saying is - replay the game. If you haven't found all the answers, which I did, it doesn't mean they aren't there, and they are. If these things were made any simpler and obvious it'll become a standard and cheesy plot, what I did like about it was that they hint towards things in some books and you have to complete it for yourself, which is a cool puzzle in itself. The books keep talking about the intoxicating effect of greed for glyphs, and you keep overhearing Keepers talking about wether they're the ones who control the glyphs or if they are slaves to the glyphs, and you have two books discussing a glyph that gives eternal youth by sucking it from others and about transmutation, how it's power might lure some so much that they will give in to greed, with one such document signed personally by Keeper Gamall - you don't NEED a cutscene where they tell you exactly what had happened to her, you're supposed to reach that conclussion yourself!

The final conflict might've been anti-climatic but I really didn't care so much for Gamall in the first place - it was indeed awesome that she was also in Thief 2 and you never would've guessed she's evil, but what got to me in the final FMV is the fact the Keepers lost their power and Garrett had recieved it, and that there was a significant change in the Thief universe. Besides, epic battles aren't the Thief style - in fact, the Thief games never encouraged you to fight in any way, except perhaps against the stone golems in DS.

Vermis
6th Jun 2004, 10:46
Hi


Well I thought it was a good ending for garret's career, well the last one was straight from the t1, the epic battles?!?! Garret isn't a DukeNukem clone who kills evil aliens big as a house, I think that the last lvl was prob. best in the game. Streets were chaotic everyone fighting with those stone golems and Garret slipping from shadow to another. About the ending..I couldn't have wish for a better one..

Raythe
6th Jun 2004, 11:57
just finished it....
awesome ending, awesome game...
i liked the music

zebidie
6th Jun 2004, 14:51
I wouldnt have liked an epic BATTLE either, but some kind of epic thievery or power sneaking would have been good. A roof top chase beset by minions with a timer would have been fun something to really test your skills and make it feel like you really were about to change history if you succeeded. I actually felt that the Keeper Enforcer run through the streets was more of a spooky chalenge as my Pangan and Hammerite allies killed most of the Stone Golems in the final level.

As it was the AI for Gamal was really poor. I loaded up my old save to see if folks complaints on gamals AI were true and was really surprised at how unobservant she was. That hadnt stopped me being really sneaky the first time I played it and it WAS scary. I was even more surprised to learn that I could kill Gamal with a few fire arrows and some burning oil. I even pushed her body off the dock lol. Ofc she was alive at the next artifact point I got to but it was still silly that she could be killed at all.

Time to try it on expert next. :)

Kn1ves
6th Jun 2004, 14:57
Yeah... But I wasn't arguing for the last level. In fact, I kinda hated Gamall's Lair and the streets - I didn't have Pagan allies (I really loathe the Pagans - in a good way though, they're fun to hate; Unlike them bloody Mechanists!) so I just watched the hammers getting slaughtered. I was arguing for the end cutscene which I felt was awesome.

I really hope that this game sells well, I wouldn't mind a fourth Thief title.

Oh yeah, and I read that the expert difficulty has a huge bug that makes it hilariously easy, so I'd wait for a patch if I were you :P

Iceblade
6th Jun 2004, 18:39
Fourth thief??

FOURTH THIEF?!?

HOW?

They fired most all of the thief people and they are going to PS2 production only. I also don't really think EA or Eidos would be capable of making a good thief. Our only hope is that the thief creators form a new company or join another company in which they buy the rights to create a new thief from EA/Eidos--which will hopefully not keep the rights to it to kill it.

Nightrider
6th Jun 2004, 21:00
Originally posted by tealsmith
...Now, normally I don't mind this too much, but the fact that he looks 12 years old in the final one is pretty stupid.

For some reason I found this comment very funny, couldn't help but truely LOL at that.

But anyway, I thought the ending was pretty good. Like was said, it could have been a little longer and went into more detail about the future of the story.

Kanelle Bella
6th Jun 2004, 21:17
Just curious... I've read a couple of comments saying this is the last thief game with Garrett. Well could someone post a link to where it says this offically? Or is this just an assumption on some people's part?

Nightrider
6th Jun 2004, 21:26
Originally posted by Kanelle Bella
Just curious... I've read a couple of comments saying this is the last thief game with Garrett. Well could someone post a link to where it says this offically? Or is this just an assumption on some people's part?

I'd like to know that as well. I hope it's just an assumption because after beating DS I was left wanting more...

Arcad1a
6th Jun 2004, 23:35
if you did not beat the game you would not know why we are saying this

anyway

garret keeper new girl that did the same thing he did to start his whole story

so we think now the girl will lead its thief THIEF the game is about being a THIEF not a KEEPER garrets a KEEPER not a THIEF anymore

Kanelle Bella
7th Jun 2004, 01:48
Oh please ... there's nothing in the series that says he can't be a Keeper and a Thief at the same time. As a matter of fact when he was doing work for the keepers he was robbing people blind. :rolleyes:

And yes I've played it to the end.

She says "So old.. so old" and trys to write a glyph in the air as she's crying.

:rolleyes:

Nightrider
7th Jun 2004, 02:47
They could always do a prequel with Garrett as the main character...

Arcad1a
7th Jun 2004, 02:47
yeah i guess

i really have no clue to what they are doing

all this garret's story is over is all ideas

becuase he took on the 3 factions
hmm maybe a prequel :P like what the heart is all about or more stuff

or a gold perhaps
god pray that map editor comes

Iceblade
7th Jun 2004, 03:37
Well, there may be another thief, just not made by the original creators(laid off....sacked....FIRREDD!!) or ION Storm(gone PS2).

Hopefully the creators will get the rights back, though, and maybe do a GOOD thief instead of what EA/Eidos might create if they made another.

HornedSalmon
7th Jun 2004, 05:23
Um.. Ice you do realize that thief has changed developing hands before right? After thief 2 lookingglass went out of buisiness... now I dunno what you think but I think thief 3 is a hell of a game. Now I know your saying something about ion storm being ps2 only now.. first off even if thats true it won't last. Seccond even if new people made it again I doubt it would matter... Simply becuase eidos is a publisher not a developer... sooo they don't really effect it. If I remeber correctly eidos has been with theif sence dp.

harishreddy
7th Jun 2004, 08:44
I wont bother to cover spoilers 'cause this is a spoiler thread.


In the museum, I was salivating over the concept of garrett replacing his mechanical "eye" with the artifact eye. I was thinking that this new eye would give him a "secondary" view of his reality. and in the ending he might of had to choose beteen giving up his sight/altered sight in order to beat the hag.

Sadly, it is apparant that the people who designed the end were not the people who designed the game. The pathetic lack of creative vision with regards to sneaking around a large and more or less blind "boss" in order to click on various monuments is in clear contrast to the brilliance of levels like the cradle. Or the perfect simplicity of the clock tower. Or the plot awareness of the overlook mansion. Those mission were done by people with talent and vision and intelligence.

The ending was done by hacks who know some rote code.

Recluse
7th Jun 2004, 09:35
I just watched the ending again, and a couple of things strike me... For some reason I got the impression that Garrett gets his eye back, or that the Eye artifact becomes a part of him. If you notice the final scenes, his right eye is all red as if it were irritated, and it resembles his normal left eye in the iris and pupil in a way it doesn't in the game or the other cutscenes. I'm probably just imagining this, but that was the impression I got the first time I saw the ending as well.

Some people believe the Keepers are gone, but if you notice, when you hear the voice say "They're all gone," the cutscene is focusing on several blank glyph books. Clearly the glyphs have disappeared from all the books like the glyph that disappeared from the statue's forehead. BUT, you also notice as the scene continues that Garrett is reading one of the books, clearly implying that HE ALONE can still see the glyphs in the books. This would all make sense since he's obviously The One True Keeper.

Kanelle Bella
7th Jun 2004, 11:56
It was sunrise when his eye looked funky. Could have been the different light that made it look different.

I didn't even notice Garrett in the scene with the books. Guess I have to play to the end again. (sort of deleted the saves after I saw it) :D

HornedSalmon
7th Jun 2004, 16:33
You can play all the movies without the game... just get Bink player from rad tools. They are in the content folder. Did anyone else notice the gargoyle move its wings when you are getting your first assingments from the keepers?

DEVASTATOR
9th Jun 2004, 17:09
There's much I liked about the ending and the game in general. But, to be honest, I was a little disappointed with the nature of the last mission. It seemed far too simplistic - run around with the stuff you stole and drop it on a landmark? Previous Thief final missions were far more creative requiring you to run back and forth to accomplish your goals.

I found the mission too easy as well. Once Garret was able to beat the snot out of the stone stautues it was easy to either blackjack them or wait until everyone got into a street fight while I waited them out in a dark corner (chuckling all the time). In fact, twice I was able to run up to the landmark and drop the artifact on it without any trouble as the old hag was busy fighting it out on the streets.

I think they could have been more creative with the final mission. Include some glyph reading/useage for Garret, have the old hag notice almost immediately when an artifact was dropped in its place (making it harder to get away), or any number of things. For me, the final mission was very anticlimatic. It almost seemed like the Devs were running out of ideas for missions. Lots more detail could have been added in including (as someone mentioned) more about what the purpose of the final glyph really was, how it was to be used and why. Where was the transformation glyph? Garret using that would have been interesting.

A lot of things were carried over from the previous games and while I liked this one a lot, it just seemed to not quite hit the mark with me. Previous Thief games just seemed a bit more immersive and with a deeper plot.

Still, I think the Thief series is one of the best thought out set of FPS games ever. And who said Garret is done now? I sure hope they come out with a Thief 4 and soon (at least an Xpac).

RafterMan
9th Jun 2004, 17:31
(Spoiler thread, so no cover necessary)

The ending was definitely interesting in terms of culmination of the plot, but far too easy with respect to gameplay. I had no trouble on "hard" setting getting all the "sentients" in place, and was relatively bored doing so.

The rest of the game was excellent, albeit the levels, both the City and actual missions, could have been fleshed out considerably. I wish they had done that, and the game would have been worth $50 easily.

For a "Thief 4," nothing precludes Garrett himself from returning, but with some involvement of what is undoubtedly his new apprentice. Next time around, it would have to involve a "fourth evil," separate from the pagan trickster, hammer spinoff, or the keepers.

Dynnr
9th Jun 2004, 20:22
Hmm...maybe a Kurshok uprising? As they fight against the Pagans for revenge against the invasion to their citadel? Who knows? Maybe his 'apprentice' will be captured on her first solo run, and Garret needs to move in and rescue her.

As for the ending...I was happy with it. Evil hag wanted to destroy the glyph so she could live forever and rule The City with her army of stone. (Why do these megalomaniacal tyrants always want to rule the world?) Garret saves the day, because after all...if he doesn't, who will? And let's face it, the ending of the world would seriously cut into his profits.

I don't know about a 4th Thief, though. The prophecies were all fulfilled, the Pagans and the Hammerites are (finally) on even footing, and the meddling Keepers are no more. (Or at least much reduced in strength.)

Just more ramblings from a rambling man. There's a song in there, somewhere.

~~Dynnr~~

Unbalanced
10th Jun 2004, 01:47
Running around sticking artifacts in certain places while being supposedly pursued by a hag with cataracts so bad she cant see you from 6ft away plus a bunch of gargoyles dumber than the citywatch?

Not fun in the least, in fact the most "dangerous" part at the end was hoping not to get pulled into one of the mass brawls between pagans, hammers, gargoyles, city watch and thugs. These fights seemed to give city watch guys infa-red vision (must have been the adrenaline :D ), as in the middle of a fight one of them would suddenly run straight at you despite being in total darkness and 30ft away!

I agree with other who said it should have been more of a chase than it was. Maybe the statues around the city should have come to life and possibly a time limit before the hag wipes out half the city or something.

The artifacts too should of played a bigger part, after all they were supposed to be sentients "having there own will and being able to act on it" as written in game. Maybe they could cause problems for garrent as they supposed to not like being together.

The movie was dissapointing but I really hoped to see what happened to the hag (instead of her standing there saying "old, so old" while shadowy figures (keepers maybe?) close in). You should have seen her get ripped apart by the glyphs or something (not one second a monster next a frail old hag).

Was the final glyph destructive, ie where it lit up the city did it wipe out everthing there like it looked like? Did the chalice and paw return by themselves to the hammers/pagans or did garrent return them? What about the other 3 (garret takes "his" eye back perhaps)? Who created the failsafe?

So many questions I could ask, but so little info. Its like a cut down abridged version of a book, no flesh on the bones.

Dissappointing :(

Greenmonkey824
10th Jun 2004, 02:17
I think a fourth Thief could be very good, but a bit of a departure from the rest of the series. For example, there would be no prophecy, just normal, realistic thieving. And maybe the girl could be your AI buddy or something.

hagatha
10th Jun 2004, 03:09
I for one am really hoping that this not the last of Garrett's thieving ways. As this is a fantasy series, anything can happen. Garrett's a Keeper? So what? Disaster strikes the world, Garrett slips of his robes and takes to the streets. I think the end was designed for the possibility of the game not being a hit. If it's a hit - Thief 4. If not, series has an ending.

I didn't like the ending sequence, though. Like many people, I thought it was FAR too easy, and at one point I stood up in front of the hag by mistake , thinking I was done for, and she didn't see me! I had no trouble with the placing of the artifacts, but it was just too easy to get to them. At one point I got bored, ran past the hag and a statue, smacked the artifact on the stone, and ran for the next exit. No problem. Not a very inspired ending to an otherwise great game.

PSwartzell
10th Jun 2004, 06:31
I liked it. Took me a while to work through the meaning, but now it makes sense. The Final Glyph took away powers from all other glyphs. Since the had kept saying "I AM glyphs", and derived all power from glyphs she lost all power, but so did the keepers. The only way to stop the had was for the keepers to make the sacrifice and lose theirs as well.

DEVASTATOR
10th Jun 2004, 13:47
I'm seeing a lot of people here being somewhat dissatisfied with the ending of the game. Both in the very nature of the goals (simply run around and drop an artiact at a landmark???) and the ease of doing it. I was trying to put my finger on exactly why I felt this way. To me, it almost seemed like the devs ran out of ideas for missions and threw this one in just to get you to the end movie. In other words, the plot of the game seemed to come undone at the end. Too many holes, not enough continuity, etc. So, a thought came to mind............

Everyone has a "thing" they are good at and few are good at a lot of things. I would hope that game devs are good at programming and designing. Are they neccessarily good at writing stories?

What the Thief series always needs to make it a great game is a story. An immersive plot line that gets you into the game and every mission so you feel you are advancing to an end point. I definitely got that feeling from the previous 2 Tief games, but not from this one. What it lacked wasn't neccessarily a good story (this one had potential), but it was the writing of that story that was weak.

Whaht Thief 3 (and future Thief games) needs is a story writer first that can develop the plotthoroughly BEFORE its turned over to the devs. Can you imagine what the game would be like if someone like Stephen King wrote the "script" for the game, the objectives for the missions, etc.??? Wow, I'd buy that. Writers know how to tie each chapter together to create a seemless experience for the reader. That would have been very effective here.

Malackii
10th Jun 2004, 16:12
I loved the endgame story, the way the plot wraps up. Had a problem with the hag being such a pushover though.

Anyone notice that you can actually "kill" her for a few seconds? They didn't give her infinite health. You can actually bring her down to zero, at which point she goes transparent while the game decides what to do. Takes 10 or 15 seconds before it "respawns" her back to full health. I saw this happen twice - once when I went right up close and "killed" her with my dagger (was too close for her to hit me with melee or magic... bug there), and another time when the hammers got her deaded.

As for Garrett's eye - my impression was that he did indeed get it back. It was red / orange from irritation.

And as far as a Thief 4 goes - there's alot of precedent for bringing heros out of retirement. A new fanatic Hammerite could rise up, the Kurshoks aren't out of the picture... all kinds of possibilities, though the whole glyph / keeper thing seems all but dead. It could even be as simple as that young thief stumbling onto something that Garrett needs to get involved with.

van_HellSing PL
10th Jun 2004, 16:21
*sigh*

Garrett did not get his eye back. The mechanical eye is made mainly of bronze (or a similar metal). Remember the Thief2 cutscenes cs05 and especially the one where Garrett meets Viktoria - it has the same yellow/reddish colour

It's the he ingame mechanical eye that looks wrong.

BurnedToast
10th Jun 2004, 19:43
I'm pretty sure he did NOT get his eye back, looking at the case for thief2 his eye looks very red just like it did in the cutscene.

koorby
11th Jun 2004, 04:08
Originally posted by HornedSalmon
You can play all the movies without the game... just get Bink player from rad tools. They are in the content folder. Did anyone else notice the gargoyle move its wings when you are getting your first assingments from the keepers?

Yeah that always made me wonder. Odd how I don't read much about that at this forum.
I assume it ties into the Final cutscene. Garret is about to be grabbed by a gargoyle. There are no walking garogyles in the street though.
So I assume the gargoyle is one of Hag's more intelligent and capable stoners. Probably spying on the meeting and reporting back to Hag.

Also in the Final cutscene, what did the Hag mean by "Back... Back with you." Back with who? Looking at the script alone, I'd assume she was saying "BACK! Back with you!" to the Keepers closing in on her.
But in the scene, she says it as if she's being re-united with someone.


Lastly, the story on the Crown was pretty much left undone.
What if the player never chose to take the Crown from the Sunken Citadel? How else would it have ended up in the Museum?
What if the player stole the Crown, but never sold anything? He kept it in his posession the entire game, would the story have changed with the Crown not in the Museum afterall?

r1cht3r
11th Jun 2004, 05:28
I also think Garrett looks different in every cutscene, but I'm sure the lack of detail is due to the style of artwork they used in all the cutscenes. You have to remember its cartoony, like an animated comic book, not supposed to look all that real. I liked the music, in all the thief games, and I love the ending in this one as much as I did in the other two. Overall I liked Thief II better, but the fact is Garretts in this game so it automatically kicks ass. Just my opinion maybe but Garrett seemed more like a scared errand boy than a street wise master thief in this game though..Eidos kinda ruined his personality.

Zebreu
11th Jun 2004, 10:47
I thorougly enjoyed the whole game, as i did the previous. I loved the story too, it's a great plot, could be more concise, but a great and interesting plot nonetheless. The cinematic cutscenes are awesome, you see cutscenes in other games who try to be über-detailed and whatnot, and these guys did amazing stuff with simple, but very skillful animations. The only thing I didn't like about them was the dumb rock music in the beggining and in the end, which is completely out of place with the rest of the game (we're kinda medieval here, hello?!) and garret's face, which not only looks different in every cutscene, it looks crappy in all of them. Same applies to every other face too. The cutscene when Lauryl is freed from Gamall, that's just downright awesome. Great job. As for the rest of the game, the ending cutscene could be longer, you get a bit disappointed with it. So short :( but the levels in the game are simply awesome. Cradle was great, though it scared the **** out of me and I couldn't wait to get out of there, and the mansion, that was a level that I didn't see in a game in a long long time. The cohesiveness of the objectives, the level design, just perfect. Also, i think I'll replay the game when a patch comes out, Cause with all the bugs in here, i think it will feel a whole another game. Specially if they fix the AI. Oh and the graphics, shadows in my Radeon9600 completely crumble my system (nvidia-the way it's meant to be played....BAH).
All in all, a great game. I think I'm gonna play thief 1, i never got to finish it :D

Kanelle Bella
11th Jun 2004, 14:29
When she said 'back with you' at the end I think she was talking about her old body.

I think there is alot of room for another thief game.

There's the hammerites and the Pagens for one thing. At the end of this game they were at total war. They all of a sudden get there holy idems back. The hammerites credited the builder. Don't you think they think that it's award for doing the right thing which is killing the enemy?

At the end the Keepers are exposed. What do you think the reactions of the city are going to be? Will they find out that they have been manipulated all this time?

Also One of the loading sequience said roughly that the first keeper was only a temp for the one true keeper. It didn't say the one true keeper was a replacement for all of the keepers...

Anyways I found the last words of Orland to be more informative then the final cut scene.

tealsmith
11th Jun 2004, 14:36
Originally posted by Kanelle Bella

Will they find out that they have been manipulated all this time?


I doubt it. The Keepers are gone, and since the final glyph has been activated, their books are empty (The End of Words). Sure, the buildings have been revealed, and they're full of libraries.... but libraries of nothingness.

Anyways, when Gamall says "Back.... back with you..." I believe she's talking to those Keeper Enforces (or normal Keepers, whatever they were). She tries to form a glyph, probably to stop them, but is disapates since glyphs are no more.

DEVASTATOR
11th Jun 2004, 16:20
I think the implication at the end of the game is that Garret is the One True Keeper. With the rest of the keepers being rendered powerless and after getting that nifty key tattoo on his hand and all. So, the quesiton remains...................what's Garret supposed to be keeping now?

Plenty of room for many more Thief games with that open ended line of thought............

Bones01
12th Jun 2004, 06:05
Originally posted by tealsmith
I doubt it. The Keepers are gone, and since the final glyph has been activated, their books are empty (The End of Words). Sure, the buildings have been revealed, and they're full of libraries.... but libraries of nothingness.

Anyways, when Gamall says "Back.... back with you..." I believe she's talking to those Keeper Enforces (or normal Keepers, whatever they were). She tries to form a glyph, probably to stop them, but is disapates since glyphs are no more.

Yeah, in the cutscene if you look at the background there are about five or so human-shapes closing in on her.

Anyway, ending? Dunno, ok. It just seemed like Garrett's personality was odd throughout the whole game. It got even stranger at the end. I almost felt like his personality was as varied as his appearance - especially when compared to previous games. I know it's supposed to be change from his experiences, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

asmodian
12th Jun 2004, 18:43
For a "Thief 4," nothing precludes Garrett himself from returning, but with some involvement of what is undoubtedly his new apprentice. Next time around, it would have to involve a "fourth evil," separate from the pagan trickster, hammer spinoff, or the keepers

Hmm i think the perfect setup is for apperentice to be evil.

BrokenArts
15th Jun 2004, 13:59
In talking to DigiNightfall from TTLG, when we all met up, Garrett's appearance came up, and what we thought it really meant.

Garrett on some respects, even though we see him now, more than ever, he is still a mystery on some levels, yes, different people doing the art work, they wanted, supposedly, some of that mystery to remain about Garrett. Frankly I like that idea.

The ending, so many are reading into it, what they will. Somethings were meant for your imagination. One door closes, another one opens for Garrett. Some questions were answered, somethings came full circle, only a person playing Thief from the beginning would catch somethings in the final scene, that were played out in the beginning of Thief. Somethings were finally made known to everyone, even in the game, for all they had to address, I think the ending was great. It is utterly impossible to address each issue, all the questions that have been raised in this thread, and on TTLG and ISA, come on, the ending would of been a hour long trying to explain everything, (not that that is a bad thing) You can't hit everything. Somethings are left, as I said before, for your imagination, thats the way it should be.

Thief is the greatest story ever told in gaming. A trilogy that has come to an end. I don't think there will be another game like Thief. I am just glad I was along for the whole ride, thank you LGS and ISA.
:)

Belboz
16th Jun 2004, 04:28
The ending is easy because the default setting for the streets and the graveyard is normal, and you can't change it. You can only play the individual mission on a different difficulty level. So anyone expecting to ghost the whole game on expert, can't.

bocefus
16th Jun 2004, 06:36
Once a thief alway a thief... remember that... True G is the ultimate Keeper he was first the ultimate thief. I really liked the sun rise (symbolizing the sun set on the series) However if this is what Eidos plans to do with Thief then they truely are mad and should be fed to the burriks (they apparently forgot those fine specimens of a creature)... The little kid was cute... however the overall ending of this particular part of the series left me feeling extremely empty and unsatisfied. I would hope that they would end the series on a little better note than what they provided.


All the questions... It is utterly impossible to address... It would have been an hour long ending

Well why not add another couple hours of PT? They know we want it, they know we crave it, they know we can't live without it.

strontium
16th Jun 2004, 09:14
The game graphics and all were obviously "better" given the years between The Metal Age and Deadly Shadows but I thought that overall it was less challenging with less plot. It was a good game and I'm very glad they finally came out with it but I was dissapointed in the lack of complexity for the final mission.

tealsmith
18th Jun 2004, 03:13
The one thing I REALLY didn't like about the end was there was no sense of urgency, unlike the Maw or Soulforge (despite how much I despised the latter). I didn't feel rushed or anything. I mean, you've got this insane super glyph charged monster running around, and the fences still have their shops open. I felt like I could have just grabbed a bag of peanuts, sat back, and laughed as those stone glyph statues slaughtered the Pagans and everyone else.

Guineapiggy
18th Jun 2004, 09:45
I know there's a warning on the thread but there's a certain amount of justification for the old blue mask. I was just reading this for one detail I may have missed but please, use the blue mask. I take the care of doing so even in spoiler warning threads.

everlong71
18th Jun 2004, 11:03
The one thing I didn't like about the final cutscene, was Garretts appearance, I mean he was clean shaven for heavens sakes!! I highly doubt that any master thief who lives in a dump, and is never home, always out stealing would have such a pretty boy appearance. LOL Another thing was his mechanical eye, it looked really really odd, what were the guys thinking when they made that cutscene??

Da Alians
19th Jun 2004, 03:45
Originally posted by Belboz
The ending is easy because the default setting for the streets and the graveyard is normal, and you can't change it. You can only play the individual mission on a different difficulty level. So anyone expecting to ghost the whole game on expert, can't.

I havent seen this mentioned anywhere on this board..but this guy made a little proggie that forces it to stay at whatever difficulty

http://www.team5150.com/~andrew/project.thiefbot/

edit: nm
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40147&highlight=thief+bot

Speg
19th Jun 2004, 03:54
horrible ending.. probably my least favorite ending of all time :(
I loved the game completely.. up until the end (and the cradle cause it made me run and hide like a little girl).

All of the cut scenes in thief were kinda horrible.. the last one being the worst. I understand thief is all about being in the shadows and such.. but being able to see exactly what was going on in those scenes would have really improved things.. they could have had lots of candles/torches for at least those few moments!

It was kinda a kick in the pants to the keepers who were complete jerks to Garret.. then he gets to have the last laugh when they lose all their powers and become 'the suck' while he is the only keeper.

Also after I beat it.. I now have no desire to play it again(even though I really enjoyed the game) you cant continue where you left off or get anything special for beating the game or nothing.. absolutely -no- replay value whatsoever =c(

The part where you gotta place the artifacts in their slots was far far too easy. You could easily just run right through it tossing a flash bomb or two to blind 'the monster' or the statues.. kinda sad.. All the bling I recieved from the museum was a waste :(

Oh well.. great game.. ending of suck :( still a 8 outta 10 game in my opinion though.

zachKS
19th Jun 2004, 05:52
if not SHE would of killed him

She needed him to empty the museum.

zachKS
19th Jun 2004, 05:54
Originally posted by ringo380
Perhaps it means that they are going to abandon the whole fantasy aspect in Thief 4, save for one last keeper to tie in the stories, and have the girl run around doing all the realistic thief jobs and missions everyone really wants.

And maybe they'll bring back rope arrows, and ball bearings, and maybe they'll have multiplayer and co-op, and make their own new engine that lets you roof crawl through entire cities without loading but still have the best graphics ever, and still run perfectly on a 450 mhz pentium 2 with 32 megs of ram.

Or maybe not. :(

This would ruin the game.

zachKS
19th Jun 2004, 05:58
Originally posted by Iceblade
Fourth thief??

FOURTH THIEF?!?

HOW?

They fired most all of the thief people and they are going to PS2 production only. I also don't really think EA or Eidos would be capable of making a good thief. Our only hope is that the thief creators form a new company or join another company in which they buy the rights to create a new thief from EA/Eidos--which will hopefully not keep the rights to it to kill it.

Probably not. I'd have to believe that the dev's signed a deal with the devil by going to eidos.

BadSector
19th Jun 2004, 09:58
Originally posted by Kanelle Bella
It was sunrise when his eye looked funky. Could have been the different light that made it look different.

I didn't even notice Garrett in the scene with the books. Guess I have to play to the end again. (sort of deleted the saves after I saw it) :D

No, it' obvious, that's he's got he is eye back. Just look at him at the first time he's looking his hand. His eye is already orange. And at the last scene, when he's looking at the girl, his iris and whole rigth eye is exactly the same as the left: back to normal.
It's logical too: he put back the "Eye" in the fountain so he got back his own.

BadSector
19th Jun 2004, 10:01
Originally posted by zachKS
Probably not. I'd have to believe that the dev's signed a deal with the devil by going to eidos.

I think, that given some time, nothing is impossible.

everlong71
19th Jun 2004, 10:51
A simple thing they could have added to the game would have been an overall score system after you complete the game (only). It would display stats like:

Amounts of times seen:
Kills:
Stealth Kills:
Total Loot:
Playing Time:
Water Arrows used:
etc
etc


Ifyou could get a total for the whole game, then it might encourage me to replay the game and beat my previous score. Right now I have no plans to replay it as much as I liked it.

UniTom
21st Jun 2004, 10:32
I enjoyed the ending.

The final level was interesting, if a little too easy. Having the Trickster talk to you while you sneak around was a really eerie addition. (Unnerved me more than the cradle mission)

I like the fact Garret becomes the true keeper and takes that girl in, just as Artemis took him in, in the first game. He even says the exact same line :D

tealsmith
21st Jun 2004, 15:46
Originally posted by UniTom
Having the Trickster talk to you while you sneak around was a really eerie addition.

The Trickster? Funny, I thought it was The Eye :)

coldplay_josh_106
21st Jun 2004, 16:11
The Only bit i enjoyed about the ending was wen Garrett caught the little gurl and reapeted the script from the first cut scene in thief 1.

But hounestly what are we left with!? We have hardly any dialouge to explain things...?!

What kind of a boss is Gamall supposed to be? she was a load of crap! If this was supposed to be the last chapter of the thief series, then we should have had a better enemy to defeat. Maybe the trickster should have come back...?

Think back to the final cutscene in thief 1...we had alot of dialouge between Garrett and Artemus! thief 3 should have been more like this!

dont get me wrong, i dont mean to be *****y, im just feeling a little uninformed and unfufilled.

As for the game in general...It was GREAT, but it wasnt thief!

Bad Points

1. it shouldnt have had the 3rd person, this ruined the 1st person perspective and the general feel of the game.

2. wat was with the ingame cutscenes that used graphics rather than the classic thief style illustrations?! this shouldnt have been included.

3. Garretts "look" - he didnt look like garrett at all, should have worn a cloak.

4.climbing gloves were crap, and where was the thives high way?

I could go on but my basic view of thief deadly shadows is...Its a great game, but too much has changed between thief 2 and thief 3.

tealsmith
21st Jun 2004, 18:21
Originally posted by coldplay_josh_106

1. it shouldnt have had the 3rd person, this ruined the 1st person perspective and the general feel of the game.

2. wat was with the ingame cutscenes that used graphics rather than the classic thief style illustrations?! this shouldnt have been included.

3. Garretts "look" - he didnt look like garrett at all, should have worn a cloak.

4.climbing gloves were crap, and where was the thives high way?


[list=1]
I never use 3rd person, but how did it ruin 1st person? If you're reffering to the 'body awareness' then that was always planned.
The CG cutscenes would have been less expensive to make then to constently use Rustmonkey's talents.
A cloak would have played hell with the physics, and in reality it'd also be less stealthy. It'd be knocking into things and such. Besides, with the exception of in cutscenes, in the original games Garrett never wore a cloak. In Thief 2, throw a mechanical eye and look at yourself.
Climbing glvoes were fine by me. I miss rope arrows, but the gloves were OK. And there were a couple small thieves highways.
[/list=1]

rob444
21st Jun 2004, 18:25
I also noticed he had changed appearance at the final movie, maybe it was the last artifact that did it, I mean, the hag wanted to use them for her self and she cries in the end she was old again, maybe by using all those artifacts he got younger? I also noticed his eye was more red than usual.

tealsmith
21st Jun 2004, 18:40
Originally posted by rob444
I also noticed he had changed appearance at the final movie, maybe it was the last artifact that did it, I mean, the hag wanted to use them for her self and she cries in the end she was old again, maybe by using all those artifacts he got younger? I also noticed his eye was more red than usual.

I believe Rustmonkey just screwed up. You'll notice Garrett looks different in all the art cinemas.

Also, the Final Glyph wouldn't have made Garrett young. What it did was destroy all other glyphs. Hence Gamall lost all power, and reverted back to her old bent self.

Dawgs
21st Jun 2004, 19:56
:cool: Well I just finished the game.I didnt play t1 or t2, but I thought this was a great game, ending was great, hell the whole damm game was great. They need more games like this. I reckon hitman is next on my list

HornedSalmon
21st Jun 2004, 20:02
Hitman is crap....at least as someone who likes thief... hitman is crap.. but in regard to you likeing it regardless of not playing t1 or t2 thats understandable I mean... I think t1 was best plot line by far, then t3 then t2, if I hadn't played t1 or t2 I would think t3 was really really great, but in comparason it could have improved.

coldplay_josh_106
21st Jun 2004, 21:09
Originally posted by tealsmith
[list=1]
I never use 3rd person, but how did it ruin 1st person? If you're reffering to the 'body awareness' then that was always planned.
The CG cutscenes would have been less expensive to make then to constently use Rustmonkey's talents.
A cloak would have played hell with the physics, and in reality it'd also be less stealthy. It'd be knocking into things and such. Besides, with the exception of in cutscenes, in the original games Garrett never wore a cloak. In Thief 2, throw a mechanical eye and look at yourself.
Climbing glvoes were fine by me. I miss rope arrows, but the gloves were OK. And there were a couple small thieves highways.
[/list=1]

wot ever ur arguments against mine are, all of those factors took away the general feel that the first 2 thief games had!

gorgias
24th Jun 2004, 10:53
OK, if you read this far in the thread I don't think there are any more secrets to give away so I'm not going to conseal anything. If you don't want to read any secrets, stop right here.

My theory about Gamall and the keepers surrounding her is that those were the people she had 'swallowed' to stay young and that is why there suddenly was so many keepers around her.

I'm not sure about what a new thief game should look like. I hardly think Garret is ready to handle being the true keeper and head of his own faction right now. First he needs to learn not to steal everything that isn't nailed down. Right now he is way to greedy for the good of the city.

A possible new direction for the game could be the sentients acting up and controlling the city in the absence of the keepers. They are probably less nice than the keepers so it would require Garret to step up to the plate and shoulder the responsibility. The sentients might be kind of hard to fight though.

I'm not crazy about how the glyph magic was handled in the game but atleast we didn't have a really cheesy magic system or the end fight like in the wheel of time game (don't want to spoil that game for you though but it's not worth it's money).

I'm less sure about if Garret got his eye back but there was something funky with it. It could be the eye artifact but in that case it changed colour (not impossible given it's recent usage).

My two least favourite aspects of the game were the fights in the city (happened almost every night that people got into fitghts and everybody blamed Garret who had just sat it out in the shadows) and also the faction system. Going out to kill rustmites and shooting bricks and the hammers and pagans then magically liking me more felt way too gamey. Things like that should be scripted to keep them from becoming corny. The sapling mission was alot better.

If there is a new game we should have more scripted missions and less of the miniature city blocks. A proper city would just take too much time to make and this system of Garret robbing his neighbours is far from perfect for the story-cohesion. Any new developers should not be shy about having Garret move since he shouldn't be able to live in one place for too long.

I don't know how the code is looking over at Eidos and Ion Storm but if this game has sold enough to warrant an expansion pack, please release the editor with it or even better release the editor for free but atleast give it to us somehow.

tealsmith
25th Jun 2004, 16:47
Originally posted by coldplay_josh_106
wot ever ur arguments against mine are, all of those factors took away the general feel that the first 2 thief games had!

OK, I agree the atosphere isn't as good in Deadly Shadows as in the previous games. If there were two little things I'd change in the future patch:

1. Bring back the picture/art briefings. Honestly, how hard would it be to make them? Take in game screenshots, concept art, turn them to black and white, add a couple effects, and drop Garrett's voice from the briefing over top of them.

2. It's always too light in the sky. In Thief 1, 2, it was black up there. Now it's always a dark blue. I'd prefer a black sky, better for the mood.

Shalebridge
25th Jun 2004, 19:48
Over 80% of the people voting on this poll liked the ending, but most of the posts have been *****ing...

:confused:

Anyway, I enjoyed the ending alot. The City was like a little mini mission, and although Gamall was a blind bat, she was pretty damn imposing. Lots of magic flying across the screen. Very hectic :). Plus some of the damn artifacts talked to you!

The ending CG didn't look good (like most of the CG in the game... why does it look so bad? Very cheap Ion Storm :p. The in-game stuff lo0ks 10x better!), but the content was fun to watch.

The Last of All Glyphs has well, ended all glyphs. The key (Garrett), opened the lock (Keepers & their glyphs), and that's that. The Hag is old & dead soon enough. Garrett has a new apprentice obviously. All looks well for the future.

Except that the Pagans & Hammerites are at war, The City knows about the Keepers, and the damn world is still full of zombies, ghosts, and most of all, bad people with evil intent.

Bring on Thief 4!

Ferett
27th Jun 2004, 08:45
Its simple, dont you guys get it? Garrett is The One now, he learned to free his mind and thus broke free of the Matr- er wait a second... time to put away the Book of Old Rehashed Hero Plots vol. 5. But in all seriousness, the plot was a little stale in some areas, but overall it gave a good twist. Personally, I think the little girl is totally, 100% irrelevant to any next Thief 4 games though, shes probably just there to tie in the plot and wrap up what Thief 1 started from.

LightningTree
1st Jul 2004, 06:57
Spoiler warning

I was hoping for a little bit more torment from the artifacts. Another mission or two, with the artifacts messing with Garret's mind, would have made the game a little bit more interesting.

I felt the ending was slightly rushed, and Gamal became less scary do to the repetitive nature of her appearences.

Personally, I might have found her more scary if there was more tension about her appearing to pounce on Garret. I might have had her feed on some of the civilians.

In any case, I thought the weakest part of the Thief 3 plot was the objectification of the profectic writings into "Glyph Magic".
I don't think encapsulation of the writings into the phrase "Glyph Magic" helped the plot. Its just too derivative, like sparkly magic in high fantasy. Real magic never uses the word "magic". The plot would have made just as much sense if that had been left less concrete.

In any case, had I the quill for the finale, I would have had more missions where the threat of Gamal's appearance (as a hag, not as a multibodied troll) would have lead to long-term tension. Every now and again she would pop out and chase Garret, or eat a civilian, etc.
Meanwhile, the artefacts would have been trying to drive Garret mad.

Catghost
1st Jul 2004, 19:33
Originally posted by HornedSalmon
Did anyone else notice the gargoyle move its wings when you are getting your first assingments from the keepers?

YES!!! I thought at first it was just the flicker of the torch, but as I watched it again I saw him move his wings again. Glad someone else noticed!

Conquistador
2nd Jul 2004, 16:20
Actually there similar effects in other cutscenes as well, when meeting the keepers in the cemetery there is a gargoyl which opens her eyes while they talk. When there are gargoyles in cutscenes they always do something, sometimes hard to notice

dogsolitude_uk
2nd Jul 2004, 16:26
What did I think of the ending?

Plotwise: no problems with that. The last level was dead easy though, but I did love the urban chaos as everyone was running around fighting everyone else...

The animation at the end... Oh dear. I really loved the cutscenes in T1 and T2, the grainy, sepia quality was nice and atmospheric. I just didn't feel as if I was looking at Garrett. He was too clean-cut. He needs stubble and craggier features definitely...

wolfsbane
3rd Jul 2004, 22:09
Originally posted by Unbalanced
The movie was dissapointing but I really hoped to see what happened to the hag (instead of her standing there saying "old, so old" while shadowy figures (keepers maybe?) close in). You should have seen her get ripped apart by the glyphs or something (not one second a monster next a frail old hag).


i didn't read page 3 and 4 before posting this reply, so if i repeat something, sorry,

i think it would have been cool to see inspecter drept kill the hag personally... the scene with her drawing the failing glyph, then seeing drept loom over her, then have him draw back his huge hammer, and blat, all over the pavement... now that would have been worth cheering over :)

i think i'll just modify my memory so that really did happen heh

jm

wolfsbane
3rd Jul 2004, 22:12
Originally posted by Kn1ves
Answers? You wanted answers after you've had the whole plot practically drawn out for you? THIS is why they dumb games down. God, why don't you go replay the bloody game and then edit that post of yours?

I loved the ending. I loved the fact the Keepers lost thier powers and suddenly the whole city could see their previously concealed HQ through the now dispel'd glyph wards, and I loved the fact Garret became the one and only Keeper. After the glyphs are gone you understand what they were talking about when they mentioned an unknown future and "The Unwritten Times" - it was hella cool. I didn't mind the whole "Ho ho, now Garrett is the Keeper and the girl is just as gifted as Garrett was, so we've come full circle"; I mean, it was a nice hint towards the hardcore fans but when you come to think about it, it's not exactly full circle considering the prophet is dead and the glyph books of prophecies were "unwritten" (not to mention that nothing was written beyond a certain point, as they say), and Garrett was being pulled by the ear through the first two games by the Keepers. I was just blown away that after The Thief was mentioned all over the keeper writings he was the only one to inherit their powers while they were deprived of their's.


as for what i thought of the ending... i think i can just say ditto to knives, i'm not trying to flame anyone here, but if you actually read all the tips on load scenes, read all the books, listened to all the conversations, you definately wouldn't be left scratching your head at the end, it would also help out if you replayed 1 and 2 right before 3, it helped me out anyway :) hehe

jm

Silent_Hitman47
4th Jul 2004, 01:42
Originally posted by Kn1ves
Answers? You wanted answers after you've had the whole plot practically drawn out for you? THIS is why they dumb games down. God, why don't you go replay the bloody game and then edit that post of yours?

I loved the ending. I loved the fact the Keepers lost thier powers and suddenly the whole city could see their previously concealed HQ through the now dispel'd glyph wards, and I loved the fact Garret became the one and only Keeper. After the glyphs are gone you understand what they were talking about when they mentioned an unknown future and "The Unwritten Times" - it was hella cool. I didn't mind the whole "Ho ho, now Garrett is the Keeper and the girl is just as gifted as Garrett was, so we've come full circle"; I mean, it was a nice hint towards the hardcore fans but when you come to think about it, it's not exactly full circle considering the prophet is dead and the glyph books of prophecies were "unwritten" (not to mention that nothing was written beyond a certain point, as they say), and Garrett was being pulled by the ear through the first two games by the Keepers. I was just blown away that after The Thief was mentioned all over the keeper writings he was the only one to inherit their powers while they were deprived of their's.

The only level I didn't like was Gamall's Lair, and I found the city levels really tedious (and rediculously tiny), but on the whole, the game f**kin' owned, HARD ;) Exactly my thoughts. You did clarify the keeper compound showing up though. Didn't catch that but I understood everything else. Very good game.

U4EA
4th Jul 2004, 09:59
Just finished the game. I thought the ending was the perfect way to pay homage to its predecessors. Absolute class.

De2nis
4th Jul 2004, 16:39
They never even told me what the deal was with that ghost ship (Abysmal Gale).

wolfsbane
4th Jul 2004, 18:57
Originally posted by De2nis
They never even told me what the deal was with that ghost ship (Abysmal Gale).

that's true, that is a bit of an unknown, they say that it sailed out of port, so maybe the ghost crew is just going to head out and sail the seas, maybe it's the origin of the flying dutchman ;)

jm

Krehlmar
4th Jul 2004, 22:59
Agree with the cinemas changing him all the time...
It was kinda bad enough they were drawn pretty bad compared to the rest of the game.... and how they didnt even make it look realistic when the girl spoke, when Gamell cried (you could see how they just "stretched" her mouth) and when garret smilied...

Also, I was disapointed with how they made the hag model, yae it was 'good... but I couldnt see the chaos stylish faces and mouthes,
I think she just looked like a skinned bear...

Also rock music... it couldve been good in another game, but this is theif were talking about... sigh...
And why must this be the end?... I dont know, Im asking..

Hope they make theif 4, though i guess youll play the girl then...
(if they make it, hope to god they make better ai!)

Meh... methinks the whole running around putting artifacts was an Anticlimax to the big museum raid...

I mean, when you put a artifact on its place, the ground shouldve shook and the hag screamed, making more stone monsters or zombies or whatever, or maybe the parts of town would start to rip apart...
I mean, I wanted a more POWER feel in the end!
I mean, Warcraft 3 frozen throne... thats probably the BEST ending of a game EVER... he looks like the damn empror of the world... yet sad, alone, desolated...

(And for the record, I really dont like how the mixed the ages ingame!
First a classic castle, I loved that level, made me think "Oh gosh this game will rock!"... but the pagen level was kinda dank... and then the Widows mansion, well it WAS a good level... but it was like 1700-1800 pirate stylish mansion, with oil lamps and wallpaper...
and THEN The craddle, good job with the scaring, but the whole light bulp scenario?... made me feel like a medevil theif inside a 1800-1900
insanity hospital...

They were all good maps, but just wrongly complied into eachother...)

Bottom Line;
Game was good, some things dragd it down, maybe a 7.5 or 8/10

And someone PLEASE tell me! What magic did you get from the glyphs?! All I got was ability to shoot rustsmites, shooting moss arrows at cornerstones (which did nothing for me except growing the normal moss) etc. Were you sopose to get some glyph magic you actully COULD use?

Tybalt
5th Jul 2004, 06:49
There's the glyph that lets you kill statues, that's all I know of. And shooting moss arrows into cornerstones isn't meant to give you magic, it's meant to up your status with the Pagans.

Catghost
5th Jul 2004, 06:59
Originally posted by Tybalt
There's the glyph that lets you kill statues, that's all I know of. And shooting moss arrows into cornerstones isn't meant to give you magic, it's meant to up your status with the Pagans.

And the glyph that ables you to open glyph doors. They came in handy from time to time.

Flashart
11th Jul 2004, 16:46
I've just finished and really enjoyed the game.

It seems to me they ended the story in such a way as to give several possibilities.

1, It is over, finished.
2, Garrett returns in T4
3, "The Girl" returns in T4

or what might be a great "halfway" solution. Howabout an add-on disc, controlling the girl. Garrett gives her missions, that are purely "Thief" based, stealing stuff. These could be 5 or 6 large missions and a few smaller ones, with maybe an option of leaving the city "open" at the end.

(I know all of this is wishful thinking but it sounds good, doesn't it?)

Temozarela
11th Jul 2004, 18:02
Originally posted by zebidie


As it was the AI for Gamal was really poor. I loaded up my old save to see if folks complaints on gamals AI were true and was really surprised at how unobservant she was. That hadnt stopped me being really sneaky the first time I played it and it WAS scary. I was even more surprised to learn that I could kill Gamal with a few fire arrows and some burning oil. I even pushed her body off the dock lol. Ofc she was alive at the next artifact point I got to but it was still silly that she could be killed at all.

Time to try it on expert next. :)

That is funny. I managed to knock Gamall off the pier with old oil flask trick. That made me laugh, in a kind of disappointed way. Quite a major blow to ones dignity, being this hard as nails monster then slipping about on a pool of oil to your doom. I thought the giant stone statue in gamall's lair was much scarier.

If they were going to have 'The Girl' as the player character in T4, I just hope they'd give her a chance to grow up a bit. Too much 'cute' wouldn't really sit well with the Thief atmosphere.

Catbert
11th Jul 2004, 18:13
It'd be fine if it wasn't for rock. It's not that the sound is bad, it's that rock doesn't really belong in the dark ages.

Rathorin
11th Jul 2004, 21:38
Thought Thief was an amazing game but the ending was a let down. The main strengths of Thief are story and atmosphere both of which the last cutscene was lacking. It was almost like the endings children give to stories, fragmented and not very deep. The chalice and paw being returned seemed like time fillers, unnessary and other plot elements should have been explored instead (though did like the idea of G returning them)
Cut scenes overall I much preferred the in game graphics ones, at least G looked the same in all of them and I liked the realism, it made Garrett seem more of a real character rather controlled totally by the player. For me, the cartoon ones really didn't work apart from the one that plays in the start up menu which was fantastic. Aniamtion can be brilliant but it takes loads of time to do it well and they rushed them.
As for a Thief 4 most of the time I'd say its good to stop at a certain point but in the right hands I think Thief could almost go on indefinately. Thief 3 left me wanting more, something I rarely get with books and never with games. Thats the thing about Thief, they've done something that's rarely ever done in games but should with all games, that is having a excellent and compeling story.

tealsmith
12th Jul 2004, 21:49
Originally posted by Catbert
It'd be fine if it wasn't for rock. It's not that the sound is bad, it's that rock doesn't really belong in the dark ages.

Did you ever play the original Thief games? The main theme for both of them was an industrial rock song. I was a bit dissapointed they didn't use the same them in Thief 3, but the new one's pretty cool.

Catbert
13th Jul 2004, 00:32
Yes I played the others. So? It's still not rock's place.

tealsmith
13th Jul 2004, 00:56
Originally posted by Catbert
Yes I played the others. So? It's still not rock's place.

Feels right to me. I also believe some of Looking Glass's employees were formally in a band or something, which would explain the rock.

Still, everyone's opinion is valid.

Catbert
13th Jul 2004, 01:11
It feels the same as putting techno on a vitorian themed movie. It's just out of place. Although orchestral music also belongs in modern movies. Well, some stuff is immortal I guess.

wolfsbane
13th Jul 2004, 01:32
Originally posted by Catbert
Yes I played the others. So? It's still not rock's place.

your opinion, i thought it was cool

i think putting contemporary music in an old setting is neat (my opinion)

(wolfsbane ducks the flames)

jm

entropyltd
13th Jul 2004, 02:38
Originally posted by koorby
Lastly, the story on the Crown was pretty much left undone.
What if the player never chose to take the Crown from the Sunken Citadel? How else would it have ended up in the Museum?
What if the player stole the Crown, but never sold anything? He kept it in his posession the entire game, would the story have changed with the Crown not in the Museum afterall?


If you keep the Crown and sack the Museum, you will find a Cat Statuette in the Crown's place. This statue is worth 400 gp, though, so be sure to get rid of any less valuable cat statues you may have (I had 3 at 100 gp apiece) before you get it. As a bonus, you will find another cat statue in the Museum, and the Thief loot system is so dumb that it will give you 400 gp for it, even though it says 100. In short, it is possible to end the Museum mission with 300gp extra in loot than it says is possible. [8050 vs. 7750]. Afterward, you can sell the Crown AND then place it in Stone Market Proper. A bit buggy, but the notes in Gamall's lair accurately reflect the status of the Crown at the time.

system_dude
13th Jul 2004, 19:30
the ending was pretty lame to be honest, it could have been much better!

I don't know if i have spent more time on this game compared to Thief 1&2 or its just shorter but i have completed the game already and i aint even finished the first 2 Thiefs (and i'v had them since their release dates) DS seems to be a lot easier than the others!

Ferrett
13th Jul 2004, 20:42
I'm going to have to watch the final scene again, but are we certain that the waif IS a girl? Not just a pre-pubescent boy with a high voice? Does it really make a difference if the waif is male or female?

To stay on topic, I disliked the abruptness of the ending. I think they could have done more with it. Here's to hoping Eidos/ISA come to their senses and release the level editor. I really hate the fact that they had to dumb down most of the game to accomodate the console.

tealsmith
14th Jul 2004, 01:30
Originally posted by Ferrett
I'm going to have to watch the final scene again, but are we certain that the waif IS a girl? Not just a pre-pubescent boy with a high voice? Does it really make a difference if the waif is male or female?


It was a girl.

littlek
14th Jul 2004, 13:25
I did enjoy the ending but hope that this is not the end of Garrett or the trilogy. If so, I have to agree with Ferrett about an editor being released and how the console restricted the PC game. I sure hope we are not denied all those T3 FM's that should be developed so that the story can be continued. The thief community deserves it. We have been very loyal supporters.

wolfsbane
14th Jul 2004, 13:50
you know, the thing i liked most about the ending was the small smile that garrett gave when he realized the repeat of his history... i thought that was awesome and made the ending cool in my way of thinking...

i can see where people are coming from when they say the ending was too short, or not enough bang, or whatnot. but it seems to me that the thief games have always been high on subtlety and this ending was not out of character for the thief series.

i think about all the sequels out there to games and thief is really one of those series that seems to keep me coming back to a universe that is involving and fun. and this with the series changing ownership after the first 2 games...

the developers deserve a pat on the back from me anyway on another job well done...

before i get flamed for that, i realize that there are quite a few mechanical things that can be fleshed out via patching, but as far as the actual game goes (acting, story, environment) it's all top notch.

jm

tealsmith
14th Jul 2004, 15:03
Originally posted by wolfsbane
you know, the thing i liked most about the ending was the small smile that garrett gave when he realized the repeat of his history... i thought that was awesome and made the ending cool in my way of thinking...

I fully agree with that. When the camera shows his face, he smiles, and the music starts - one of the coolest momments ever in Thief.

Carsti
17th Jul 2004, 04:43
I kinda liked the ending. Like the whole game it had it's flaws, but like the whole game, it was better that most of the currect game-scene after all.

Anyone else instantaneously thought of "Léon" (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0110413/)? I think there is plenty of room for a Thief 4 with G as the main actor. The apprentice might get lost/kidnapped /younameit. Orland's soul might come back to haunt Artemus' soul for some crappy reason. The woodsie-lord might ressurected by the tree Garret planted in the pagan house at the docks... oh boy, there are no limitations in a fantasy-universe, I have to admit.

The only thing that I won't stand is an even easier, child-compatable, story-lika-fairtail, 3rd-person-only game that's exclusive for XBox. If it goes either of those ways, I'd rather quit playing Thief alltogether... :rolleyes:

Flashart
18th Jul 2004, 14:46
I just watched the ending again.

It may be my imagination working overtime but...

The last gylph appears to spell "Thief".

Also maybe theres a clue to a sequel with the guy reading the empty book, and the words about how the city will cope etc.

Jargurorf
19th Jul 2004, 04:33
I think the Keepers missinterpreted what the Final Glyph really was. I think the meaning of it has been distorted through the ages. I think the Final Glyph was designed to destroy all UNBALLANCED glyphs, while Garret is the only person who did right, or was Ballanced. It could even be that the Final Glyph destroyed all that was not good in the city where Garret was the only "Good" thing.

I think this was also a message in Real Life to people.... or I could just be reading into it too much about this last part :)

I for one would like to see another Thief game. If it sells well that will probably be the case. They can do whatever they want, it is a fantasy setting.

I liked the industrial music and thought it was a cool twist. Something you didn't really expect in a midevil setting.

Garret deffinitly got his eye back because the Sentient Object that the "Eye" was no longer has a purpose and no longer needs to "see."

Possible Thief plot continuations could be 2 years after the conclusion of Thief 3 in which Garret has restarted the Keeper order and there is an inballacne within it and it runs deeper than he thought.

Or maybe since Garret is a Keeper profecy will come back, but then again I think the conclusion of Thief 3 was that Freewill dominates. But who knows!? I'm not the developers of Thief.

Oh well. I did enjoy the game. It had it's quirks, but it was a solid Thief game. These are one of the few games in which I actually care about the story because it is just so unique.

I think that's it. Thank you for reading and considering my opinion in advance.

DreamEndless
20th Jul 2004, 08:19
I thought the ending was prety good. Wrapped up the story nicely and gave promise to the Thief legacy continuing even if the game doesn't;)

My only issue with it was the quality of the cut scenes. All of them totally stank. The art work was dire and the inconsistencies were laughable.
Garret has mech eye
Garret has no mech eye
Garret has green mech eye
Garret is 18!

WTF? Compare notes people! And hire artists who actually KNOW what your main character looks like!

Jargurorf
22nd Jul 2004, 01:51
I think they did that intentionally because you never actually know what Garret looks like. Your always getting dark shadowey pictures of him so I think they wanted it to be left to the imagination. Hence why he looks different in every cutscene.

It never bothered me and I actually liked how he looked different each time.

shalroq
23rd Jul 2004, 00:34
So if there is another game, will Garrett train that small girl to make him a cloak that stays on him?
The ending was pretty good. I think that's the first time I've seen Garrett smile. What a happy chappy.

DreadX
23rd Jul 2004, 01:15
It was Gamall who tried to nick Garrett's purse in the ending, right? There gotta be a thief4 where u play as gamall whos garrets apprentice. would be cool, and now you got some real bombs to flash the guards with ;P.
This can't be the ending of a great series, cus there r more cities to rob and more evul to fight.

tealsmith
23rd Jul 2004, 01:17
Originally posted by DreadX
It was Gamall who tried to nick Garrett's purse in the ending, right?


Um... no. I believe Gamall got offed by the Keepers, after she lost all her power when the Final Glyph activated. You can see her in the end, with Keepers surronding her.

The girl at the end was... just some girl.

Carsti
23rd Jul 2004, 22:43
The longer I think about it, the more I believe the last scene was a nod to the beginning ("Not easy to see a keeper, especially who not wants to be seen..." IIRC) and a possible kickoff for a fourth part. Go Leon, go! :D

wolfsbane
23rd Jul 2004, 23:22
Originally posted by Carsti
The longer I think about it, the more I believe the last scene was a nod to the beginning ("Not easy to see a keeper, especially who not wants to be seen..." IIRC) and a possible kickoff for a fourth part. Go Leon, go! :D

glad your catching on :)

jm