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Zaccheus
3rd Apr 2004, 15:03
Originally posted by GayleSaver on TTLG 3-APR-04 (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81242)
In 2000, I dug into lglass.com and found a public directory, from which I downloaded Dark script header files and a Siege engine distribution. I released neither at the time, of course, but I also released neither properly afterwards. In April 2001, I gouged title as shamelessly as title can be gouged and said I reverse engineered the scripts; Siege came out under the name DeusDarkus and from a fictional "source" some time later. For the next three years I lied to you shamelessly - convinced first that it was too early to confess, then that it was too late. My title among you isn't worth a shred, and it's time for you to forget everything good that I did.
Does this mean that the thief custom scripts are illegal ?

Sneak
3rd Apr 2004, 17:33
Hmm Zac,
Good question. Your post there sort of turned my head.

Glad Gaylesaver came out with it though. Be kind of tough holding something like that inside.

Guineapiggy
3rd Apr 2004, 17:57
*ahem*, April, anyone?

Zaccheus
3rd Apr 2004, 18:00
He posted on the 3rd, so sadly not a joke.

BrokenArts
3rd Apr 2004, 18:01
Bit late for the Aprils Fool joke anyway. All that is happening lately with this, now Randy, *sigh* Jokes on us. :|

John D.
3rd Apr 2004, 20:45
I just saw Zacch's post and checked it out on TTLG. From what I could make out in spite of the massive wave of stupidity coming from the trolls that reside on that forum VK downloaded some Dark engine stuff from a public server and used the information to create the custom scripts that a lot of authors use rather than breaking the engine down and reverse engineering it like he claimed.

As for the legality of what he did, I think if the information was put on a pubic server that could easily be accessed-why is it so shocking that the information got downloaded and used? If they didnt want the scripts getting out, they shouldnt have put it there (very foolish thing to do with all the hackers and viruses out there-HL2 anyone?). Plus Looking Glass doesnt exist anymore, so why should they care in the first place? T1 and 2 have been out for years now. Of course since I'm not a lawyer, there's probably a lot of issues that could be raised-but it would seem to be a stupid and self-defeating thing for him to be sued by edios/ion-storm. What VK has done with the information has provided an enormous benefit to FM designers and thereby aided in creating a bigger fanbase for future Thief games-which ends up putting more money into developers and publishers hands. In a sense you could say he's an unpaid advertiser for the series.

As for the ethical side of the issue, I do agree it was wrong for him to lie about the reverse engineering aspect. He shouldnt have done that in the first place and once he did-he should have confessed to it earlier.
However this doesnt mean he's some kind of con-man or that the last few years of work that he's done are now irrelevant and should be cast aside. VK has achieved great things with the information, he just wasnt honest about how he obtained it. Everyone's lied about something, at least he had the guts to step forward and admit what he's done. I havent lost respect for him, in fact it's grown since he could have just made up some excuse or another to leave and never told us anything at all.

When it comes to the FM's that use the scripts-to yank them all would deprive the community of some of the greatest FM's out there-which would do great harm to the FM community and deprive the series of more free advertising-another bad idea. My own work wont be affected since my FM's dont have the sopistication yet that would need a custom script (plus I like my FM zip file to have everything needed to play without an additional script package-that's just my personal preference).
But really, does anyone just my stuff to be availiable only? ;) Leave all those other good FM's alone!

VK hasnt harmed anyone by what he's done, in fact he's done a whole lot of great things for the community. The only harm has been to his own reputation due to his deception, which he has confessed to. I forgive him and I dont see why it should be so difficult for anyone else to. VK I know you said you were leaving, but I urge you to reconsider.
Leaving TTLG would be a great thing IMO due to all the troll-happy retards that have infested the place sending it into a downward spiral-but that doesnt mean you have to abandon the Thief community as a whole. Come on over to Edios! Where the people are friendly, and law and order reign supreme:D

van_HellSing PL
3rd Apr 2004, 21:04
Pretty apocalyptic day today, first the news about Randy, then this... What the taff is the world coming to...

Zaccheus
3rd Apr 2004, 22:16
Originally posted by van_HellSing PL
... apocalyptic ...
Yes, lot's of revelations.
;)

Old Gold
4th Apr 2004, 01:16
Please forgive me for not being up to date, but are you guys talking about Randy (Smith)???

Please don't tell me he died, or quit Thief III!!!

Peter_Smith
4th Apr 2004, 01:58
Originally posted by Old Gold
Please forgive me for not being up to date, but are you guys talking about Randy (Smith)???

Please don't tell me he died, or quit Thief III!!!
Check the Thief III forum here, and check Ion Storm for more detail.

Zaccheus
4th Apr 2004, 20:21
John D, someone at TTLG didn't like your post.
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81284
:o

Mr Jay
4th Apr 2004, 20:31
Christ on a sledge John D. (I joined up just to say that) - How goes it matey? :-)

Legality wise it might be a problem. Eidos no doubt owns the copyright for those scripts. So whatever you do, don't go posting this at the official eidos forums. doh! Well there goes any don't ask don't tell arrangement. Perhaps someone from eidos might like to peruse the creative commons website (http://creativecommons.org/) for some inspiration.


Originally posted by John D.
The information was put on a pubic server that could easily be accessed-why is it so shocking that the information got downloaded and used?
ahem.:eek:

Peter_Smith
4th Apr 2004, 21:05
John D.,

Making disparaging remarks about TTLG is not acceptable. In general, we consider them to be our friends, and we do not want to start a bitter rivalry or a flame war. Please read your e-mail.

MsLedd
4th Apr 2004, 23:16
Originally posted by a disgruntled troll-happy retard
Wahh wahh, boo-hoo... nobody over at TTLG thought I was witty and clever when I did my troll-happy retard dance, so I threw tantrums and left. (BTW, this post is for all those TTLG members: I HAVE LEFT). VK, you should leave too.

BrokenArts
4th Apr 2004, 23:24
http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Duel.gif

MsLedd
4th Apr 2004, 23:29
*chuckles*

Though I'm not fighting, nor will I. I was simply translating :)

BrokenArts
4th Apr 2004, 23:50
My post was aimed at that *troll* MsLedd.

Mr Jay
5th Apr 2004, 00:51
MsLedd is no such thing >8o)

John D.
5th Apr 2004, 02:09
Zacch about I tried to open the link but it says you have to log in, is there another one I can use?:confused:


Making disparaging remarks about TTLG is not acceptable. I apologize for that, those remarks were only a side note to my discussion about what's going on with VK.:(

In general, we consider them to be our friends, and we do not want to start a bitter rivalry or a flame war. Please read your e-mail.I wasnt trying to start anything, I have plenty of friends over there in the Fan mission and Editing forums, however some areas and some members...leave something to be desired...... :mad: As I said my main focus was on VK, and you've just gotten my e-mail.

Eidos no doubt owns the copyright for those scripts. So whatever you do, don't go posting this at the official eidos forums. doh! Well there goes any don't ask don't tell arrangement.I think the whole thing is already common knowledge throughout the community by now, like I said before-to jump on VK and the scripts he made would be doing the community and potential new converts to the series a disfavor.

Though I'm not fighting, nor will I. I was simply translating
Ms. Ledd, YOU obviously are trying to twist what I've said and stir up problems. :mad: But I wont let you.:) The 'downward spiral' comment is an actual quote from a well respected author whose name I wont mention. To be blunt I got sick of the pigpen and left (yes I did leave-I was not banned just in case that is what they're saying), dont follow me over here trying to stir up things. Yes I'm blunt, but I've found trying to be nice only gets me nothing but insults. If things are cleaned up over there, I might consider returning. Until then, I'm staying here.:p

My post was aimed at that *troll* Hehe little lady, I've seen some of the stuff you've posted over there, you have no room to talk.:D

BrokenArts
5th Apr 2004, 02:20
Just about everyone over there pretty much says what they want to, and that's fine, to a point. The difference for me is, I am not mean spirited or start fights, that's not my bag, I have never been called in a round about way a *troll* either. :rolleyes:

John D.
5th Apr 2004, 02:37
I didnt start fights either, but when people said things ranging from the deroggatory to genuinely evil about myself or people and things I care deeply about, I stood up. If it was friendly, I stayed civil-but if someone was an idiot and was not reigned in by those in charge (which happened quite often) I hit back hard and didnt apologize.

Taffer_Boy_Elvis
5th Apr 2004, 04:53
John, I understand you getting mad at someone on TTLG, but after all, it's a discussion board. You have your opinion, and the other people have theirs. While you remain civil, some resort to childish behavior. Simply leaving those discussions after stating your objection and objections to their behavior usually puts you on the high ground. I've had to tell people off before.

ANYWAYS,

This confession is only more drama in VK's life in the e-community.:rolleyes:
I bet Eidos and Ion Storm found out about this already, and this will probably add fuel to the fire for top-level executives, who simply will not understand that even though (maybe?) illegal, these Gaylesaver Scripts have helped to keep the Thief community active for the last few years. FMs have kept people interested in a game that came out over 4 years ago.

This may send a point to the Thief producers, seeing that custom scripts with a game editor makes the game keep seeing sale for so long.

There aren't a whole lot of PC games that have seen activity and longevity like TDP and TMA.

Eagle eyes.......;)

Peter_Smith
5th Apr 2004, 05:15
OK, guys and gals. What I see here is a flame war started by John D. and fanned enthusiastically by others, including myself (with a public admonition) and especially by MsLedd (who inserted knife and twisted). Enough is enough. Let's call it quits. Thread closed.

Sorry Zaccheus.:( Nice thread. Too bad it had to be ruined.