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View Full Version : I Wonder- Rights And Wrongs Of Thief Play



HOC
13th Mar 2004, 01:12
out of sheer curiosity, how is it that putting the difficulty on easy and bowsniping/hacking, a method which isn't frowned upon by the developers or even penalized within the game an incorrect method of playing the game?

seriously, do you guys that believe there's a right and wrong way to play thief sit there playing and yell "lol!!1! that npc is such a noob!!!" or "ha ha h4mm3r173z 4r3 ph4gz!!" at the monitor?

i can understand the pride one takes when they ghost a level. i personally, have never tried ghosting, and i have my reasons for it. i'm too impatient, plus i love seeing bodies hit the floor. doesn't matter what game i play, doesn't matter if it's an rpg, strat, fps or whatever...i always take out everyone. and try to do it asap so i can get my kicks and move on. that's just me though...look down at me if you so wish to.

i'm just wondering why some of you, and you fellas know who you are, why take it to such an extreme? if the game can have different difficulties, allow for a variety of playstyles, and not penalize someone for NOT breaking a mission requirement...why the hell should ya flip out over it?

ok, you guys are elite. you can do something that others cannot, or even want to try. congratulations, and yes, i do mean that.

but please, for the love of the game (which, sadly enough, does not appear to be something some of you have because you don't appreciate how open ended the game really is), try not to be such extremists with such foolish notions as thinking you alone can dictate how the game can and cannot be played when you're not even on the development team. if that's what you want to do, then take up modding (hopefully it'll be available for t: ds) and create a level that forces the player to game in the manner you feel is necessary.

until that time though, please be open minded enough to allow others putting down the same amount of cash for the game to play how they see fit, not you.

thegrommit
13th Mar 2004, 01:25
It's just another form of gamers elitism. Quake players regard themselves as "l33t" because they regard that game as the "purest" FPS. Rainbow Six players regard themselves as the best because the one-shot one-kill dynamic requires "more skill". Descent players used to refer to all of the above as "ground huggers" as their game required true 360 degree awareness.

Pay no heed, it's all bull faeces.

BrokenArts
13th Mar 2004, 01:28
Thing is, some of these hard core ghosters, love a good black jack round just like the rest of us, have seen it posted many times. Don't catagorize or generalize too much about that.

They never said it was written in stone, it is just another way to play, so be it.

Chiefdreams
13th Mar 2004, 01:54
Yeah, I have ghosted. C.Prison.... But I'm one of the old timers here and everyone knows I like to slash and stack.
You have the wrong forum I guess.
We used to have bets with screen shots...
1)The most bodies in a swimming pool.
2)The highest pile of dead bodies
3)Who could stack the highest pile of crates...
etc.

There are purists here but they are respectful of other styles too.

tealsmith
13th Mar 2004, 01:56
Originally posted by Chiefdreams

2)The highest pile of dead bodies



What's the record for that? I'd be curious to know if I beat it.

clayman
13th Mar 2004, 02:38
Me thinks our HOC is just trying to incite riot. Being in an agreeable mood, I won't bite. ;)

There is no right and wrong style of play. Agreed. There are just some of us, a few, who think that to Thieve is to go undetected, unseen, unheard, not a thing disturbed......to live to steal another day. Forced realism on a game that is ultimately very inconsistent and unrealistic.

The only time I ever make a friendly jab at a slash and burn player is when in all their haste to slice and dice and move on, they come here and ask questions that reveal that they missed some of the best moments of the game, the moments that convince me that the game was not designed with them in mind at all.

That said, I do like a bit of blood and reparte with the blackjack, now and again. It keeps me grounded that it is just a game. :)

Hmmm...how many times have I responded to this bait in 5 years.......hope my answer is somewhat consistent over the years....... :)

Peter_Smith
13th Mar 2004, 03:43
Originally posted by HOC
but please, for the love of the game (which, sadly enough, does not appear to be something some of you have because you don't appreciate how open ended the game really is), try not to be such extremists with such foolish notions as thinking you alone can dictate how the game can and cannot be played
I guess I am one of the elite ghosters you refer to. Clayman and I think alike in that regard. Frankly, I cannot recall ghosters looking down on other modes of play. I think your premise is nonsense, and your statements are ridiculous and insulting. Remember what I told you about troll-like behavior?:( As clayman said, your post is apparently intended to incite, not to start a debate. So be nice.

But I will have to admit that ghosters do not have much sympathy for players who post here in a big panic saying that they have run out of ammo and don't know what to do. The fact is, if you are any good at Thief, you can complete almost all missions with a BJ and sword. So, for people like that, I give advice that they need to save their ammo and learn how to sneak.

But, to answer your question, we sneak around because it presents a challenge, and that mode of play is really the essence of the game as we see it and (I think) the developers see it. Thief has not been called a "first person sneaker" in the gaming press for no reason. It is also a somewhat relaxing and moody experience to play that way. This does not mean that we do not deviate from that mode. Not at all. If a mission becomes too tedious to Ghost, as did Fate of the Art last night (the loot is too difficult to find), I think nothing of BJ'ing all the AI. That is my second choice. But not my only choice. I remember well when clayman and I had a contest to see who could complete Song of the Caverns fastest in Mad Psycho Dog mode, where you must kill all the AI. As I recall (the records are lost), I eventually did it in around 20 minutes, all with a sword, getting 100% of the loot, and enjoyed every minute. :) I could be off about the time, but it was very fast.

Still, it is not necessary to be fastest or best or sneakiest. I generally don't play that way. I play Thief to relax. Anyone can play the game any way they chose. That is what makes it a good game.

Peter_Smith
13th Mar 2004, 04:07
I have also been known to stack body parts in a weak moment. ;)

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http://www.mindspring.com/~smithpd/thief/body_parts.jpg</center>

Chiefdreams
13th Mar 2004, 04:14
Touch'e......

HOC
13th Mar 2004, 05:35
Originally posted by Peter Smith
I think your premise is nonsense, and your statements are ridiculous and insulting. Remember what I told you about troll-like behavior?:( As clayman said, your post is apparently intended to incite, not to start a debate. So be nice.


first off, didn't mean it to be insulting. and no, a riot was not my intent.

second, and i do apologize for this, since i only used ghosting as an example. but the post wasn't regarding ghosters, it was regarding those who believe there's only one method of playing the game, and find it necessary to say one method is right. go through the threads, and you'll see quite a number of people have done just this. and that's what inspired my post. clearly if ya go from ghosting one game, while carnage the next, this isn't about you...since your actions aren't saying one way is "correct" and another isn't.

so to summarize, this isn't against ghosters. this isn't against people that change their playstyles depending on the mood they're in. this is only concerning those that think one way is right, the other wrong. and it's those people that come off as extremist. and that's the foolish belief, i feel.

as for those people who worry cause "they've run out of ammo", well...no sympathy for them. cause if they do that then need advice, they're pretty much in the same boat as those elitists imo.

i hope that clarified my position better.

Peter_Smith
13th Mar 2004, 08:24
Yes, it did, thank you. I still don't know who all these extremists are, but I am probably better off not knowing.

bonobp
13th Mar 2004, 14:04
if you wanna see bodies drop the floor, go play Doom3, or Fracry, or HL2, or whatever, all of these games will be more fun in terms of fighting. but if garret will be strong @ fighting in thief3, he will turn into rambo and loose all his style. Thief is a great game because it is different. It cannot win by including stuff that HL2 or whatever already has. that´s ridiculous.

theBlackman
14th Mar 2004, 01:49
First, I'll go on record as a DOOM, SS2, Unreal, Nali Pali, player (among others). I stack up bodies and make a bloody shambles of the place like every other player of these games.

But the one thing that drew me to THIEF and keeps me playing it is the need for patience, the necessity to be aware and seeing what is there, the uncertainty of what's around that corner, and all the other "stealth" and THINK aspects of the game.

THIEF should not be modeled after a shooter. Thief should not be made easier for the non-thinkers, those without patience, or those who want to fight at the drop of a hat. Garrett (as we know him) is no match for two or more guards, and should not be. RUN AWAY, should be his strong point.

He should, and is barely able to hold his own against a single opponent, and that is as it should be.

Sneak and Steal is the game, (play any way you want, I do) but the mods seem to be going away from that.

tealsmith
14th Mar 2004, 01:52
Originally posted by theBlackman


He should, and is barely able to hold his own against a single opponent

I wouldn't say he's THAT helpless.

clayman
14th Mar 2004, 02:01
Originally posted by tealsmith
I wouldn't say he's THAT helpless.

I have to disagree there, conceptually...not as much so as far as game design. A working thief is not Swartzenegger, is not Rambo or Jet Li. He is just a guy trying to make a living, who has become above competent with his tools, including the blackjack and sword.

That said, the game would be too hard if there were no way for Garrett to win in a rumble with 2 or more AI. But my theory is that astute gameplay ought not to put him in the position to have to expend that effort to even find out if he can or not. :)

tealsmith
14th Mar 2004, 02:33
I agree that Garret isn't some big killing machine, and that the game should be (and the past two have been) designed to keep him from having to prove this. However, when push comes to shove and worse met worse, I was able to show the guards who the boss was. I have no problem with one guard. Two guards is a hassle. Anything beyond that and up to 5 is, for myself, very hard yet possible. Granted, I'll suck back plenty of health potions and chew lots of apples, but it's possible. I don't want to do it, but if I find myself in a corner with no where to go I WILL unleash the fury of the tealsmith. *Ques Kung Fu music* THE FURY I TELL YOU, THE FURY!!!!!...... *ahem*.

Morpheus445
14th Mar 2004, 17:51
I'm curious, are there any ghosting movies on the web? I think it would be very entertaining to observe anothers tactics :).

Chiefdreams
14th Mar 2004, 18:28
Ghosting is a slooooooow process.

TheOriginalNobody
14th Mar 2004, 20:00
I generally try to sneak about, but I sometimes blackjack some of the guards. Best of both worlds. I never kill though. It makes me feel really bad :(