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abruptdogma
4th Mar 2004, 10:24
I believe that the seer is responsible for the vampires curse. As the only remaining hylden left in nosgoth she would be the one most likely to induce the curse at the time of the binding, or just afterwards.

Also on your way to meet the Seer, you run into a man crawling on all fours. He says

"I told 'em, she cursed them, I told 'em! The old witch... her minions will come and slay us all! I told 'em."

While this could mean a variety of things, its is also one possibility that it could mean the vampires curse she is talking about, and her minions the other hylden waiting to invade nosgoth. Certainly we see no evidence of her "minions" in blood omen 2!

As to why she aids kain in destroying the device, or how she owes vorador a favour, I dont know. However her eagerness in destroying the device may be that she never agreed with the hyldens plan to kill everything in nosgoth, or simply she maybe had a change of heart. The builder of the device certainly changed his mind about it, although centuries of torture might have had something to do with it too!

One last thing, nothing too important though. Ever notice how the ancients and the hylden have the same accent? Just something funny I noticed. Not suggesting that the are related in any way of course.......?


Im sure this theory has been thougth of before?

AndaPanda
4th Mar 2004, 12:05
I haven't thought about that, frankly. But good theory. Like Amy said, the Seer is a very powerful and mysterious Hylden, so taking that in consideration, plus what that poor human said (I never even paid so much attention to him, but I remember now), the Seer might have cast the Curse. As to why she owes Vorador a favor, I don't know.. Maybe the developers just had to say something to justify the Seer (who belongs to the enemy race) helping a vampire, even if the reason is vague. I wouldn't expect my enemy to help me out of the blue.

DJpick
4th Mar 2004, 19:30
"I told 'em, she cursed them, I told 'em! The old witch... her minions will come and slay us all! I told 'em."
Couldn't she have meant Umah?

and her minions the other hylden waiting to invade nosgoth
If her minions were the Hylden, didn't they already invade?

Ever notice how the ancients and the hylden have the same accent? Just something funny I noticed
Actually, they don't. Rene changed his accent while doing SL in Defiance. But I never noticed an exact accent. Although if you live in the same area, you would have the same accent.

Certainly we see no evidence of her "minions" in blood omen 2!
You're assuming she has some, and she is the "witch" in question. It's still possible the soldier was refering to someone else.

KainOFthehylden
4th Mar 2004, 20:33
hi
no i think he must mean the seer
because kain met him in the chapter of the seer
if he means someone else he could have appeared in earlier chapters

DJpick
4th Mar 2004, 20:46
How convenient.

Yet we know Umah can port anywhere she wants really. She may have been following Kain.

ForbiddenVampire
4th Mar 2004, 21:33
Yet we know Umah can port anywhere she wants really. She may have been following Kain.
Remember when Kain reports back with Janos and before they appear Umah says to Vorador" You should have let me go with him!" this suggests that Umah stayed behind as per Vorador's order.
I don't think the seer did inflict the curse upon the vampires though...she may have had a hand in it, but cursing all of the vampires?
I'm guessing that "soilder" (I think more of a worker) meant that the demons from the demon realm (the same realm to which the Hylden were banished to) were those minions tamed by the seer for her protection.

AndaPanda
4th Mar 2004, 21:55
Originally posted by DJpick
"I told 'em, she cursed them, I told 'em! The old witch... her minions will come and slay us all! I told 'em."
Couldn't she have meant Umah?

Umah was an old witch?

DJpick
5th Mar 2004, 04:53
Vampires are immortal, and to a human, even 100 years would be old.

AndaPanda
5th Mar 2004, 05:47
Moebius is mortal too and he's at least 500 years old.. *runs to check timelines again to figure out how old Moeb is*.. Ahem.. Was. :D But maybe his role as a Guardian grants him longevity, so maybe this does not apply to "ordinary" humans.. Ah well. I think I'll shut up now. I've stated my theory, you're entitled to yours :)

DJpick
5th Mar 2004, 08:02
I just assumed he was talking about the Glyph demons, since they were everywhere.

Moebius is mortal too and he's at least 500 years old
Ummm, I think that negates the idea of being a mortal :) He's immortal, not invincible :)

warpsavant
5th Mar 2004, 20:05
Originally posted by abruptdogma
I believe that the seer is responsible for the vampires curse. As the only remaining hylden left in nosgoth she would be the one most likely to induce the curse at the time of the binding, or just afterwards.

Also on your way to meet the Seer, you run into a man crawling on all fours. He says

"I told 'em, she cursed them, I told 'em! The old witch... her minions will come and slay us all! I told 'em."

While this could mean a variety of things, its is also one possibility that it could mean the vampires curse she is talking about, and her minions the other hylden waiting to invade nosgoth. Certainly we see no evidence of her "minions" in blood omen 2!

As to why she aids kain in destroying the device, or how she owes vorador a favour, I dont know. However her eagerness in destroying the device may be that she never agreed with the hyldens plan to kill everything in nosgoth, or simply she maybe had a change of heart. The builder of the device certainly changed his mind about it, although centuries of torture might have had something to do with it too!

One last thing, nothing too important though. Ever notice how the ancients and the hylden have the same accent? Just something funny I noticed. Not suggesting that the are related in any way of course.......?


Im sure this theory has been thougth of before?

I think you are right. :)

AndaPanda
5th Mar 2004, 20:24
Originally posted by DJpick
Ummm, I think that negates the idea of being a mortal :) He's immortal, not invincible :)

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before on these forums, and the conclusion everyone came to was that Moebius was not immortal, just longeval.

abruptdogma
8th Mar 2004, 09:37
well at least some people agree with my theory. No way he is talking about umah as the old witch though. sorry.

Vampmaster
8th Mar 2004, 10:55
I agree that she may not have agreed with the HL about wiping out the vampires, humans etc. She wouldn't have made the vampires immortal if she wanted to kill them. I think she was the first to "see" (cause that's what she does :D) the EG as Kain did and she cursed the vampires so that they would see their gods true nature.

Matthew Danvers
8th Mar 2004, 15:34
Originally posted by AndaPanda
As to why she owes Vorador a favor, I don't know..

Hmmm... Oh yeah...

Perhaps she is responsible for Vorador's appearance in TLOKS-BO2? :D :p

- Matt

abruptdogma
8th Mar 2004, 15:39
then vorador would owe her a favour, not the ither way round!

WraithStar
8th Mar 2004, 15:51
Maybe Vorador had something to do with her escaping from being banished with the rest of the Hylden. I think it's possible that she had something to do with the curse, but there is definitely not enough information for me to call it either way.

Matthew Danvers
8th Mar 2004, 16:08
Originally posted by abruptdogma
then vorador would owe her a favour, not the ither way round!

Thanks, indeed, you have a point there! :D

- Matt

warpsavant
9th Mar 2004, 00:05
The only thing I wonder about is how exactly the Seer was able to stay/live in Nosgoth once the binding/curse was done. Perhaps in the process she curses herself.

About favors. I thought about Vorador turning her into a vampire, but, that doesn't make sense. Im still trying to figure out when exactly he forges the Reaver. Vorador says the Seer is older than he is, that would put her in the era of the binding/curse. But I guess its possible the favor could have been in an era closer to Bo2.

WraithStar
9th Mar 2004, 03:19
Like I said earlier, I think that the "favor" she owed to Vorador had something to do with him somehow helping her to escape the binding. In the murals in Defiance, it shows Vorador forging the Reaver, then being sired by Janos shortly after the curse was inflicted on the Ancients, so Vorador was alive during that time period. It is not too difficult to believe that he might have helped the Seer if she strongly disagreed with the concept of the Device and promised to help destroy it or some such thing like that.

DJpick
9th Mar 2004, 05:38
I think the Seer may have been something like the Cabal, an underground group of Hylden set in the old ways before the war, where the Hylden weren't the enemies of the Ancients.

Omni_Sephiroth
9th Mar 2004, 07:28
If she is the the Debt of a vampire and she keeps calling kain her "Dark Prince" i doubt that hse is evil :p

warpsavant
10th Mar 2004, 01:35
I think she calls him her Dark Prince because when we meet her in BO2, she has already met the Older Kain.

Im also ready to throw out the idea she escaped the binding. The Hylden needed the Pillars to collapse and some stupid gate thing to re-enter Nosgoth. When the gate is wrecked, all the Hylden die. Or get sent backed to the Demon Realm. Or wherever. It really doesn't matter. They are gone. So how is it then, that this one was able to escape the binding, and then continue to exist in Nosgoth for all this time? And why the hell does she live that long, they weren't immortal until they went to the Demon Realm. She had to have been in the Demon Realm, if only for a short while. But then howd she get out?

DJpick
10th Mar 2004, 03:07
I think she calls him her Dark Prince because when we meet her in BO2, she has already met the Older Kain.
When did THIS happen?

they weren't immortal until they went to the Demon Realm. She had to have been in the Demon Realm, if only for a short while. But then howd she get out?
Amy said The Seer was an uber powerful Hylden, for all we know she may have been immortal from magic. or something.

warpsavant
10th Mar 2004, 04:05
I think it happens after Defiance. Heck, maybe it happens between Kains visits to Raziel in Sr2.

Magic. Or something? Why, I do think there is a crack in your omniscience, DJ. :p

the_ruiner_nin
10th Mar 2004, 06:33
what if vorador had turned her, which may have kept her form being banished, granted she was then stuck with the blood curse and all, but she at least got to hang in nosgoth however terrible it was

a74gh83
10th Mar 2004, 13:58
I was going to post a new thread about what i'm about to see when i got all my thoughts and 'evidence' together. I guess i'll do that but for now i'll just dish out the raw thoughts.

I came to tinking, what if the ancients aren't the first vampires? Tink about it, what if the hylden were hatching a plan to liberate themselves from the wheel of fate, they had already rejected the notion and belief in the wheel of fate. Somehow big old bad EG finds out about their plans, being all knowing as he is, and goads the ancients into the genocidal war that starts this whole mess.

The war rages on for sometime, each side hatches their plans to end the war. The hylden start construction on the 'device', the ancients begin preparing for the 'binding'. The Seer rejecting the notion of wiping out the ancients in the fight against the wheel of fate continues trying to liberate her kind from the wheel of fate.

And so the Seer succeeds, she becomes the first living vampire. Unfortunately the preparations for the binding have finished, the hylden are banished. No longer being a hylden she is not banished.

In an effort to continue the struggle against the wheel of fate, she casts the curse that plagues the ancients as we find out. Most choose to return to the wheel of fate.
But something didn't go quite as planned with the binding, its not complete. The reaver is forged and prophecy is set into motion. Vorador is chosen to forge the blade, and then turned as a reward. As the first human to turn vampire and share in the ancients legacy, he is to prove his loyalty. He must hunt down and kill the Seer for her act. For whatever reasons he comes close to succeeding, yet chooses to spare her life. Somehow he is able to convince Janos he did the deed.

Seeing how their banishment has changed them and their minds, the seer believes the vampires are the last chance to stop the wheel of fate from turning and willing aids Kain in his endeavour. She probably vaguely described the device to vorador and her disaprovement of it.


Now to the murals depicting the curse, i am aware there are more than one hylden present. Artistic license as it would be embarassing to admit that the curse is all because of 1 hylden.

i'm not sure if i covered everything i was going to, but i will probably elaborate on this theory in a new thread in a few days. Hack away and tear this apart if you feel so inclined.

warpsavant
11th Mar 2004, 00:46
Originally posted by the_ruiner_nin
what if vorador had turned her, which may have kept her form being banished, granted she was then stuck with the blood curse and all, but she at least got to hang in nosgoth however terrible it was

This is not possible. The Vampires are not cursed until the Hylden are banished (it is still not clear if they do the curse from the Demon Realm or just prior to getting banished to the Demon Realm). Vorador cant sire her, he hasnt yet been sired himself. Unless she goes to the Demon Realm and somehow escapes in a relatively short time when Vorador has already been sired by Janos.



a74gh83- I'm under the impression they were never shackled to the wheel. They may not have had any contact with one another until the Ancients Oracle told them to attack. They did appear to have spent some time "across the sea" as shown in BO2's Hylden City and the stories the humans have there. Its still an interesting idea though, the Seer basically curses herself.

DJpick
11th Mar 2004, 02:22
it is still not clear if they do the curse from the Demon Realm or just prior to getting banished to the Demon Realm
My interpretation is that it happened AS they were being banished. Some of the murals make it look as though while the Hylden are falling through the portal, they inflict the curse.

And seeing as how they had to possess corpses to act in the real world in Defiance, I don't think they would have been able to make such a blatant move in the real world that would have such an effect.

WraithStar
11th Mar 2004, 02:33
I don't know if what I'm about to say is official information or not, but I remember someone say that the Hylden were banished in waves, or something like that. So maybe some Hylden were banished and then the ones that managed to postpone their fate used the time to inflict the curse.

a74gh83
11th Mar 2004, 02:36
a74gh83- I'm under the impression they were never shackled to the wheel. They may not have had any contact with one another until the Ancients Oracle told them to attack. They did appear to have spent some time "across the sea" as shown in BO2's Hylden City and the stories the humans have there.

I must confess that has never entered my mind. Considering that the only account of hylden and the wheel of fate was from Raziel i'd have to say that seems very possible. Taking that into account, you'll have to question the EG's nature. If it is true, is he really the origin of all life. If he is then are the hylden truly native to Nosgoth, or is the EG a foreigner and the ancients and humans r simply his creation.
Hmm, then again maybe the eg is just a parasite as is continuly implied and every i just said has no real merit.
Anyway, i always interpreted that dialogue from bo2 as that the humans have been there since the destruction of the pillars. Over 300 years could be long enough for their past to be forgotten

warpsavant
11th Mar 2004, 05:05
The human lady in the H.C said they had been there forever or something. I don't even think they knew other humans existed until they came over on boats with the Hylden, who, apparently had a foothold in that place for a really long time. We dont know if the E.G. is over there.

I agree it appears like it happens at the same time. But I don't think it matters if they are cursed before-as-or-after, its not possible for Vorador to Sire her to save her from the Binding.

Whats more likely(IMO) is what has been suggested and that she is probably some bastard child from some vamp/hylden encounter during the war. She doesn't get banished and gets the curse and all that goes with it.

abruptdogma
11th Mar 2004, 09:38
on a slightly different note. I always assumed that the hyden looked the way they do in BO2 because of their time in the deamon demension. However the builder looks exactly the same, and he was never banished there, he was in the eternal prison the whole time. Is this how he escaped the binding also?

Hey Ive just noticed that Ive been promoted from junior member to member - result!

DJpick
11th Mar 2004, 18:18
The Seer can't be a hybrid, cause we've been told she was an Uber powerful Hylden. So, no it's not more likely.

plot man
11th Mar 2004, 20:20
You people are crazy! It may well be that the seer had something to do with the curse on the vampires, but there is ZERO evidence for that. Come on! The little human that Kain sees crawling about is an obvious survivor from the works that Kain has just blasted his way out of before he met him, and is quite plainly talking about how he believes that the glyph demons (the creatures that wiped out his colony) were a curse of the seer's.
The only humans that know anything about the ancient vampires and the Hylden were Moebius and Mortanius, all the other humans are completely ignorant of that history - and this is a key element to the story; Janos talks about it in SR2, how the humans don't understand what they're doing when they're killing the vampires and so on.
Not only that, but seriously, listen, why would a random worker guy be saying "I told them, she's cursed them" about the vampires; an event that happened thousands of years before this person was even born. Are you telling me that this worker was around at the time of the ancients and warned the vampires that the results of banishing the Hylden to another dimension would bring about a terrible curse. Give me a break!
And it's obviously not Umah he's talking about either.
Sheesh!

gklok
11th Mar 2004, 23:20
I noticed that the Seer has the same attire as the hylden soldiers. Although this doesn't have anything to do with this thread, I still thought it appropriate for the subject. Something else to think on, heh.

warpsavant
12th Mar 2004, 04:40
Originally posted by DJpick
The Seer can't be a hybrid, cause we've been told she was an Uber powerful Hylden. So, no it's not more likely.

AFAIC, she can still be a Hybrid. The creators would refer to her as the people in Nosgoth see her.


PLotman- Im sure Im not the only one who thinks you are crazy if you think we took the guy literally. :rolleyes: The reason he'd be saying it is some silly plot device crap like forshadowing or Deus X mAxinatoR or whatever.


abruptdogma- Part of his punishment could be to look all hideous like the rest of them. Or maybe he is a mistake!


gklok- I thought the Seer's attire was unique to her. Go figure.

DJpick
12th Mar 2004, 05:53
AFAIC, she can still be a Hybrid. The creators would refer to her as the people in Nosgoth see her
Well it's good to know the official answers just don't matter anymore.

The creators would just refer to her as a character, because due to the hatred from both races, I doubt a mutt would be accepted in either race. Although I would think she would be accepted by the Ancients before she would be accepted by the Hylden.

And a hybrid implies that she would have more characteristics of the ancients than she does. She looks like a Hylden, plain and simple. With maybe ONE Ancient characteristic at most. Not much of a hybrid there.

Camus Audron
12th Mar 2004, 09:35
well, actually I think that if the Seer created the curse, it'd make clear vorador's motive to favor a hylden.

If you pay attention, Vorador is the first vampire to actually call the curse a gift, actually, the curse is the only thing he seems to enjoy in life, as everyone he loves seems to be destined to be murdered, maybe Vorador thanks the seer for the chance she gave him to be a pivotal character in nosgoth's destiny, and decides to spare her/protect her from the binding in return....

perhaps the Seer and Voradors have actually been allied for a while ever since, and the seer revived him as a way of paying just one of the many favors she owes him.

just laying some vague thoughts, obviously none of the ideas we lay out will be fullfilled to the last detail in the next LOK, only the general themes (such as EG being the gnostic god in LOKD)

DJpick
12th Mar 2004, 09:48
That's why I think Vorador made the blade in return for immortality. The "he's suffered much" line I think refers to his human life.

Where as the Ancients were punished and taken away from their precious wheel. So it makes sense that the Ancients would see it differnetly than Vorador would, no matter what his motives were for being turned.

Kain would see it as a gift cause it allowed him to get revenge for what was done to him.

Camus Audron
13th Mar 2004, 00:51
yes, well I agree on their reasons for their oppinions on the curse/gift, and it could be reasonable that vorador grew his hatred for humanity even as a human (since that was the topic when janos said "he has suffered much") eitherway I dont really see our point.

What I was trying to point out is that it seems unlikely that vorador would help the seer her being a hylden( we know she owes vorador, so he must have helped her), but if the seer is the one who gave vorador the gift, it would make sense he helped her.

And...another idea, what if the seer was trapped along with the builder in the eternal prision, and then was freed by vorador?

DJpick
13th Mar 2004, 06:51
but if the seer is the one who gave vorador the gift, it would make sense he helped her.
But she didn't. Everyone knows Janos did that.

But he would have had to free her from the prison pretty early, because the Builder looked like all the others, even though he escaped the banishment.

warpsavant
14th Mar 2004, 00:01
Originally posted by DJpick
AFAIC, she can still be a Hybrid. The creators would refer to her as the people in Nosgoth see her
Well it's good to know the official answers just don't matter anymore.

The creators would just refer to her as a character, because due to the hatred from both races, I doubt a mutt would be accepted in either race. Although I would think she would be accepted by the Ancients before she would be accepted by the Hylden.

And a hybrid implies that she would have more characteristics of the ancients than she does. She looks like a Hylden, plain and simple. With maybe ONE Ancient characteristic at most. Not much of a hybrid there.


I still think they would call her a Hylden. What they should have done was call her a "being" like they did in the Bo2 and just leave it that. Ha. New creators.

Well, maybe hybrid is the wrong term. Maybe her mother was a Hylden and she was raped by an Ancient. Or maybe the Hylden just have more dominant genes so any child between the races would look Hylden. I was thinking of mixed couples who have children who look like one parent or the other, so much so that its hard to believe one of the parents is actually the parent.

I also think the 'he's suffered much' refers to what happened during the Sarafan Purge. Proof is here
http://www.siliconknights.com/heritage/faq/faqchars.htm

DJpick
14th Mar 2004, 07:43
I also think the 'he's suffered much' refers to what happened during the Sarafan Purge. Proof is here
Except that in SR2, Janos made that comment even before Vorador went on his massacre. I think it was something before SR2. Just like the picture of the "Umah" like woman in Defiance was a part of a backstory that was never explained yet.

abruptdogma
16th Mar 2004, 13:57
well I believe that the "umah" like woman in voradors mansion is either his lover or one of his children. one who was killed by the sarafan.

DJpick
17th Mar 2004, 09:13
I agree. Although, I have a feeling that since she looks so much like Umah, she may have been his first wife. Because I doubt a parent would want to make a new child look like an old one. But a previous lover, maybe :)