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View Full Version : [SPOILERS AHEAD!!] question about Kain and his "condition"



Drusilla
4th Mar 2004, 02:41
Anybody got any theories of, or know why and how Kain's running around without a heart?

I just dont get it lol

warpsavant
4th Mar 2004, 02:51
I'm still trying to figure out where the original one he had went.

mortaniusgod
4th Mar 2004, 03:29
maybe Mortanius replaced it.
PS: why can't I see my own signature??? :confused:

Umah Bloodomen
4th Mar 2004, 04:28
Originally posted by mortaniusgod

PS: why can't I see my own signature??? :confused:

Most likely due to the fact that you failed to check the Show Signature option beneath the response box when posting.

al the darkness
4th Mar 2004, 04:29
some say he is supported by the pillar after the missing of heart
it is super nature...

Drusilla
4th Mar 2004, 04:36
But the pillars were damaged (raz's battle with hylden/janos) when kain woke up in the demon realm

.. tho kain had been born into the world (after the murder of ariel which corrupted the pillars much earlier).. so could the double-kain paradox thing be the reason..?

al the darkness
4th Mar 2004, 07:41
Originally posted by Drusilla
But the pillars were damaged (raz's battle with hylden/janos) when kain woke up in the demon realm

.. tho kain had been born into the world (after the murder of ariel which corrupted the pillars much earlier).. so could the double-kain paradox thing be the reason..?

some one told me that only two raziel's soul will cause paradox...
for example...when young kain met Janos, that is two hearts of darkness

DJpick
4th Mar 2004, 19:21
Kain is not missing a heart. The HoD didn't KEEP him alive, it just made him undead. It's like the paddles in a hospital. They bring you back, but you don't have to walk around with them pressed against your ribs to live.

judging from the scene, Raziel rips it from his stomach area, not his chest.

Ergo, he wasn't missing his heart, and no where have they hinted at such an idea.

mortaniusgod
5th Mar 2004, 00:03
Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Most likely due to the fact that you failed to check the Show Signature option beneath the response box when posting.
I'm such a nerf herder :( :( thanks!

DJpick
5th Mar 2004, 04:54
Wait, the band or the Star Wars job?

Kainster
5th Mar 2004, 06:13
Kains got no heart dude. It seemed like Raz ripped it from his stomach at first, but he actually went higher. Kains got no heart period. He even says it himself to Moebius. You even see the hole in the game in his chest. Theres no reason to analyze something obvious. As for his actual heart, who knows or cares really. He doesnt need it. He was dead. It probably festered into nothing. Where is there a rule that vampires need hearts to function in Nosgoth anyways? Raz was dead for a good 700 years or so before Kain raided his tomb. I doubt his heart was preserved that long. Its better to just write off this detail as the Necromantic vampire theory thingy with the portion of Kains sould sustaining the lieutenants and Kains role as Balance Guardian/Scion of Balance sustaining him.

P.S: nerf herder as in "stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder". Star Wars is awesome. 1.25 years until Episode III. Can barely wait

DJpick
5th Mar 2004, 08:00
Kains got no heart period. He even says it himself to Moebius
Ever heard of a pun? A play on words?

Theres no reason to analyze something obvious
Yeah, why analyze when you can jump to a conclusion that isn't 100% obvious :)

P.S: nerf herder as in "stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder".
Once again.... pun?

mortaniusgod
5th Mar 2004, 12:35
Originally posted by DJpick
P.S: nerf herder as in "stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder".
Once again.... pun?
Did you ever watch Star Wars?
I think mortanius replaced kain's heart, since it was pierced by the sword when he was murdered.

DJpick
5th Mar 2004, 18:52
Did you ever watch Star Wars?
Yes I did. Many times. Did you ever wonder where the band got their name?

I think mortanius replaced kain's heart, since it was pierced by the sword when he was murdered.
Says who?

Kainster
5th Mar 2004, 19:43
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJpick
[B]Kains got no heart period. He even says it himself to Moebius
Ever heard of a pun? A play on words?

Theres no reason to analyze something obvious
Yeah, why analyze when you can jump to a conclusion that isn't 100% obvious :)



Well, if you want to talk about puns, then I believe Kains exact words were "I was always considered heartless". Now why would he make a pun like that unless he had no physical heart?
And talk about jumping to conclusions. What about your theory of Kain having two hearts? What evidence do you base that on? The fact he has an empty hole in his chest? Whatever happened to the simplest explanation is usually the correct one? I dont think the details could have been more blatant in the game.

warpsavant
5th Mar 2004, 20:01
I think Elzevir ate the orginal heart.

DJpick
5th Mar 2004, 20:52
Well, if you want to talk about puns, then I believe Kains exact words were "I was always considered heartless". Now why would he make a pun like that unless he had no physical heart?
1. If he had never searched for the HoD, and didn't know where it was, how would he know he had no heart?

2. His comment implies that OTHER people said he was heartless, and never considered himself heartless.

And talk about jumping to conclusions. What about your theory of Kain having two hearts? What evidence do you base that on? The fact he has an empty hole in his chest? Whatever happened to the simplest explanation is usually the correct one? I dont think the details could have been more blatant in the game.
Ahhh the old "I have an idea, so I'm right because you're wrong" answer. Fact is no one said whether he had two hearts. No one said his human heart was destroyed. No one said the HoD replaced his heart. No one said the HoD kept him alive.

There is no simple answer in this case.

And saying that his heart somehow was taken, and replaced is less simple than saying the HoD was just left in.

al the darkness
6th Mar 2004, 05:12
yes, ibelieve kain DO NOT have heart beating now
but heart is sth that pump your blood inside your body...
it makes no sense why some one can live without heart, even vampires...so...it is super nature

DJpick
6th Mar 2004, 05:29
Of course it's supernatural. Kain is undead, a reborn corpse, living yet not living. I personally don't believe the HoD replaced his heart, because that would imply the heart was used more than to just turn him.

card
6th Mar 2004, 07:47
his role as Scion of Balance sustains him

DJpick
6th Mar 2004, 08:39
Yes, so I don't even see why there is an argument about Kain living without the HoD anyways, whether it "sustained" him or not. We were given an answer, and people seem to want to ignore that. It doesn't matter whether the HoD was his heart or not, because it's not what kept him alive afterwards.

mortaniusgod
6th Mar 2004, 13:07
Originally posted by DJpick
Did you ever watch Star Wars?
Yes I did. Many times. Did you ever wonder where the band got their name?

I think mortanius replaced kain's heart, since it was pierced by the sword when he was murdered.
Says who?
I just learned there was a band called nerf herder :eek: :eek:
About kain, well, it is obvius where the sword is piercing him.

Tall-Guy
6th Mar 2004, 13:44
And yet again we lost it.
I would like to remaind everyone that "Legacy of Kain" Is only a game, a Fiction. Amy itself said that his "his role as Scion of Balance sustains him". Do we need more?
Do not try to imply science from our world into Nosgoth Realm. It just wont work.
Its basicly Magic.
Why is it so hard to believe the pillers sustain him? Is it more easier to believe the time Piller gives the Guardian control over time? Why we accept this and not trying to argue about it?

DJpick
6th Mar 2004, 18:11
Not to nit pick ere, but his role as pillar guardian, and his role as scion, are kind of not the same.

Tall-Guy
6th Mar 2004, 19:10
Not to nit pick ere, but his role as pillar guardian, and his role as scion, are kind of not the same.


I'm not sure I understand DJpick :)

DJpick
6th Mar 2004, 20:23
Well, his guardianship is his role as Balance Guardian. Whereas I got the impression his role as Scion, was something different. Something higher and deeper than just being the last Balance Guardian. As if his Scionitude superceded his Balanceness.

I mean, him being Balance Guardian wasn't unique to him, there had been Balance Guardians before, even Vampire ones. But it just felt like being the Scion went beyond being just a vmapire Balance guardian.

Kain's Ancient Blade
7th Mar 2004, 20:26
The Scion of Balance is destined to return the pillars to vampire rule.

kakarot
8th Mar 2004, 01:40
The Scion is a new mini vehicle made by Toyota. geez you people are insane. :p

the_ruiner_nin
8th Mar 2004, 05:28
from what i understand the heart of darkness, restores vampiric unlife, or somthin to that effect. and this could explain kains being alive, and that mortanious jsut figured why not just leave it there for safe keeping

i know it's a thin theory, but i figured i'd just throw it out there

DJpick
8th Mar 2004, 05:44
I personally believe that Mortanius hid it there. maybe he knew Kain would survive somehow and protect it without knowing where it is.

But the strange thing is Mortanius HAD to have known HL's plans since HL needed the HoD, yet Mortanius put it somewhere where it would be safe. I mean Mortanius seemed to know what HLs intentions were, and knew what his possessor was doing, and tried to prevent it.

Unless of course creating Kain was part of HLs plans all along. Which I doubt though.

I think Mortanius rebelled against the Vampires, and then saw the error of his ways and tried to help them, by protecting the HoD.

Tarrn
16th Mar 2004, 20:46
Let's backtrack a bit; from the official answers from Amy and the LoK team, we know that the Scion of Balance is the first Vampire Guardian since the days of the Ancients, the one destined to restore the Pillars to vampire rule.

Mortanius clearly knew that Kain was the current Balance Guardian. And by remaking Kain as a vampire after his assassination through the Heart of Darkness, Mortanius effectively created the Scion of Balance. I don't think this was an accident; if Mortanius lived at the time of the Ancients, as we know he was one of the leaders of the human rebellion, there's a good chance he knew about the prophecies and what the SoB was.

As for why Mortanius created the SoB, when he knew that by doing so Kain was originally destined to remove the Pillars from human rule, I believe that his knowledge of and possession by the Hylden showed him the necessity of keeping them imprisoned. That even the possibility of vampires guardians were preferrable to the Hylden returning to the land. There's also the fact that he was attempting to atone for the corruption of the Circle, and perhaps was beginning to understand as Janos did that humans were not competent to serve the Pillars. That vampires were not only their rightful rulers, but had to become the Guardians in order to restore the world.

ploppy1999
17th Mar 2004, 01:54
from what i can understand from watching lots of time travel related stuff the orgainal heart died with the rest of kains body when he was slain. so with morty having the HoD after raz had taken it from janos used it upon kain to restore his body, hence why kain has it, however because kain travels back in time to a point where janos is still alive there are 2 HoD, now the way i see it is the same matter cannot occupy the same space in time otherwise a paradox is formed, (the 2 reavers with william and kain) but seeing as 1 heart is in kain and the other in janos they don't acually come into contact with eachother, it's different with raz because it's demon raz fighting human raz not human raziel fighting human raziel you see?

sorry if i babbled i've had a beer.

nichie14
17th Mar 2004, 02:07
his role as Scion of Balance sustains him = bad story telling.

DJpick
17th Mar 2004, 09:35
there's a good chance he knew about the prophecies and what the SoB was.
WOW!!! I did NOT see Scion of balance from SoB the first few times I read it :)

That vampires were not only their rightful rulers, but had to become the Guardians in order to restore the world.
The interesting question is, why are Vampires better Guardians? Because from what we know of the Ancients now (Blood drinking mortals, essentialy humans), they are really no different. And also, how is it the Pillars became SO important to the health and state of existence, when they were just meant to imprison the Hylden? It sounds like life was able to progress fine until the pillars came into existence. Vampires weren't needed until the pillars were erected, and in response ot the pillars, Vampires were no longer able to be Guardians. So what is it about the pillars that is so important? Because it CAN'T be that they are a prison, because that implies that it's for the imprisonment of the Hylden, which means it's very weird that they have all these special powers and can't be ruled properly by humans.

however because kain travels back in time to a point where janos is still alive there are 2 HoD, now the way i see it is the same matter cannot occupy the same space in time otherwise a paradox is formed, (the 2 reavers with william and kain) but seeing as 1 heart is in kain and the other in janos they don't acually come into contact with eachother,
No, because for one thing, it's debatable whether the WB is "matter".

2nd, it's not the presence of the two items causing a paradox. It's the fact that the two Reaver entities (WB and SR, WB and Raziel) are trying to reave each other. It's the reaving that causes the paradox, not the proximity (although the closer they are, the more they try).

If the WB reaves Raziel, then the WB negates it's own existence, and in essence kills itself. If the Raziel soul (or SR soul) reaves the WB, then it negates it's existence as well. Since it is the WB that creates the SR. And it's the WB that keeps Raziel alive, since he is destined to serve his purpose.

it's different with raz because it's demon raz fighting human raz not human raziel fighting human raziel you see?
Huh? That has nothing to do with the HoD or paradoxes.

his role as Scion of Balance sustains him = bad story telling.
his role as Scion of Balance sustains him = CD only giving us enough to not actually give away everything.

3pwud
17th Mar 2004, 12:50
You kill a vamp by staking them through the heart, like in SR1 and SR2.

Right, aren't I?

ploppy1999
18th Mar 2004, 01:08
it's different with raz because it's demon raz fighting human raz not human raziel fighting human raziel you see?
Huh? That has nothing to do with the HoD or paradoxes.

yes it does, it has everything to do with a paradox. you are matter (atoms and energy thrown in with other stuff.) you were born on a certain date in time and will live in a set period of time. therefore history states that your matter belongs to that time period. The same matter cannot ocupiy the same space in time because there isn't another person the same as you right down to the last atom gene whatever living in your time period. now if you were to travel back in time and meet yourself your creating a paradox because it was never ment to happen, 2 of the same matter in the same time when there is only ment to be 1. That's why kain doesn't just go and tell young kain everything that's going to happen. As with raziel it's demon raziel fighting a human raziel altho they are the same person there gentic makeup is different, therefore not creating a paradox.

DJpick
18th Mar 2004, 03:50
atoms and energy thrown in with other stuff
What other stuff? Summed up, we are nothing BUT atoms and energy (although a lot of that energy comes from the atomic reactions and interactions inherent in the properties of particle physics I'm sure).

As with raziel it's demon raziel fighting a human raziel altho they are the same person there gentic makeup is different, therefore not creating a paradox.
Fair enough. But that point is moot, because we already know that his body is not even the same matter as his human self.

BUT, their souls are the same. The proximity of Human Raziel and Wraith Raziel is the same situation as the WB entering Raziels chest. It's an older representation, meeting a younger representation. WHich is what the person was aksing in the first place. They weren't talking about genetics (which really was off the wall, considering that upon death and rebirth as a vampire, genetics possibly don't serve a purpose anymore), or DNA.

But the 2 souls arguably should have caused one. ALthough they didn't (just like Raziel and the WB merging symbiotically didn't cause one).

now if you were to travel back in time and meet yourself your creating a paradox because it was never ment to happen, 2 of the same matter in the same time when there is only ment to be 1. That's why kain doesn't just go and tell young kain everything that's going to happen.
Seeing as how it is a fictitious game, CD doesn't have to adhere to the rules and laws of temporal mechanics.

And I'm no expert, but I think the rule is that they can't occupy the same SPACE at the same time. So they can be near each other without causing a paradox, because one atom won't try to destroy the other. They are inert and don't act upon each other.

Whereas the WB/SR paradox is a result of the WB and SR trying to reave each other. They have a physical reaction, and try to feed upon each other, which in turn would cause the reaver (active force, not actual blade, ie: one that does the reaving) to negate his own existence.

For example, in SR2, if the WB reaved the SR, it would erase it's own existence, since it was the SR that becomes the WB. Vice versa, if the SR reaved the WB, that would negate it's existence, because in SR2, the WB had a hand in creating the SR.

ALthough I'm not so sure about the second one (SR reaving the WB) because Defiance seems to imply that isn't actually true. That the WB isn't the one cauing the SR to be forged. But the WB reaving the SR is completely applicable, because it is a paradox in itself. The WB can't reave it's younger self.

But. that's just my view.

Dogfight
18th Mar 2004, 05:00
I’ve been gone for a while, but I thought I’d stop by momentarily to clear this issue up a bit.

In the battle between Raziel and Kain, Kain lost the Heart of Darkness to Raziel; at that time it was his current one and only heart. He then died and got sent into the Demon Dimension. How does a dead guy come back? Easy, Kain returned to life because he is the Scion of Balance, and since Ariel was restored and the wraith blade became the Spirit Reaver, the Spirit Forge through the link he shares with Ariel brought Kain back from the dead to fulfill his destiny. When you see the in game movie of Kain’s awakening in the Demon Dimension, you can see that he is resurrected. You first see him lying dead and then you immediately see him trying to breath again (heavily breathing). As in his organs (lungs) begin to work again. Kain comments after his resurrection on how he is drawn to the Vampire Citadel, this is a hint as to what is happening. The Spirit Forge brought him back to life, sustaining his very existence, like an artificial heart would, until Kain could be healed. When Kain is healed by the purity of Spirit Reaver it not only closes up his scar, but it also grows him a new heart from remnant cells. Thus Kain is restored not only spiritually, but physically too. At least that is my interpretation of the events.

DJpick
18th Mar 2004, 08:46
Drunken DJ would like to point out how he missed arguibng with Dogfights's POsts :) Sober DJ should be able to clear upio what Drunken DJ says :) :)

Dogfight
18th Mar 2004, 19:17
Drunken DJ would like to point out how he missed arguibng with Dogfights's POsts Sober DJ should be able to clear upio what Drunken DJ says

Yes, those were good times. I’m somewhat occupied now to debate as much as before, but I’ll drop in when feasible. I still have some new threads to put up, that I never got around to posting; I’ve been sidetracked of late.

nichie14
18th Mar 2004, 23:51
who CARES ABOUT THE HEART?? one thing i realize is that THERE'S NO WAY THAT KAIN IS GONNA DIE SINCE HE'S THE SCION OF BALANCE. THE ONLY WAY HE'S GOING TO DIE IS BY SACRIFICING HIMSELF. KAIN IS INVICIBLE!!!!!! WHICH KINDA SUCK!!

Dark_Raziel01
27th Mar 2004, 15:45
Originally posted by nichie14
who CARES ABOUT THE HEART?? one thing i realize is that THERE'S NO WAY THAT KAIN IS GONNA DIE SINCE HE'S THE SCION OF BALANCE. THE ONLY WAY HE'S GOING TO DIE IS BY SACRIFICING HIMSELF. KAIN IS INVICIBLE!!!!!! WHICH KINDA SUCK!!

y do u think that kain is invincable sucks i dont b4 i thort kain was all bad but then u find out that his not all bad after all

sonofkain666
27th Mar 2004, 17:27
Kain's statement to Mobius that he had always been considered heartless was the direct effect that the staff did not affect Kain for it was the HoD that it affected as proven at the beginning and it shocked Mobius

gklok
28th Mar 2004, 01:43
Excuse me if someone else wrote this, i just don't feel like reading everyone else's response. First of all, when Kain loses his heart, he can still live without it because he is the Scion of Balance, and in response to someone's comment on page 1, vampires do need hearts to function properly, otherwise Janos wouldn't be in a coma when Raziel finds him.

DJpick
29th Mar 2004, 08:46
They don't need them in the same way a human does. It's more of a spiritual/mystical connection, as opposed to a circulatorial connection.

Jidai Geki
2nd Apr 2004, 16:52
This bothers me too. If his role as Scion sustains him, why did Ariel die when attacked by the posessed Mortanius in BO1? If, on the other hand, he doesn't die because he is a vampire, then why does Janos die when his heart is torn from him in SR2? (Remember that Raziel tells Janos that "his murderers are long dead", so Janos does die and is not in a coma).

DJpick
4th Apr 2004, 05:49
If his role as Scion sustains him, why did Ariel die when attacked by the posessed Mortanius in BO1?
Because Ariel wasn't the Scion anymore than the human Guardian before her.

I'm assuming the Scion of Balance is the first Vampire Guardian since the Ancients. Although it may involve/include being born from the HoD, since no other vampire has been raised in that way before.

If, on the other hand, he doesn't die because he is a vampire, then why does Janos die when his heart is torn from him in SR2?
Janos never "truely" died. Think of the scene in Defiance where Raziel restored him as a scene from ER with the paddles. Except Janos was just in a state of comatose type slumber.

Remember that Raziel tells Janos that "his murderers are long dead", so Janos does die and is not in a coma
But Vorador said as long as the HoD exisats, Janos can't truly die.

Jidai Geki
5th Apr 2004, 14:47
Fair enough. I wasn't aware of the difference between Scion and Balance Guardian when I posted that, and I have since read the interview on lostworlds. Hopefully Kain's lack of dying or comatose state will be explained more fully in the next game.

DJpick
8th Apr 2004, 01:35
Judging by their "short and sweet" answer, I have a feeling there is, they just didn't want to give us everything, or else they wouldn't have anything for the games :)