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Zante
28th Feb 2004, 18:12
An argument I've been hearing from alot of people is "don't complain until you've tried it".

The reason we're offering our input (very few people are making complaints without a reason as to why) is because we're concerned about "Thief 3: DS". We know it's at a late stage, but this is the only chance we've had to voice our opinions due to recent announcements regarding the implementation of new mechanics. It's hardly a vocal minority here that have concerns regarding wall-climbing, 3rd person views etc...
It's out of concern for the game and if we don't voice our opinions now it'll end up being too little too late.

A response from a dev would be nice, we know you read these forums...

theBlackman
28th Feb 2004, 18:20
It is pretty much way too late to complain. The game is being tested, the target date is May, and what's done is pretty much done.

At this point, bugs will probably be the only "tweaks" or changes in the product.

So, yeah we can show concern, but except for begging for an editor like DROM, we are up the creek.

What we'll see is the only thing we'll get.

Kerghan
28th Feb 2004, 19:43
It sounds as if they are making the PC version somewhat different then the XBox version...as in, removing as many Xboxifications as is possible. (I.E. PC version ships with first person mode as default, XBox version ships with third person as default). This is a good sign at least.

Peter_Smith
28th Feb 2004, 21:02
I think that pre-release input from the fans is OK so long as it is well thought out and expressed with civility and intelligence. Some of the better ideas may even be acted upon. Sure, beta testing has started, but details are not final until release. One problem with the complaints we see is that many of them are immature rants. Some of those, like "A minute of silence" or "Face it, Thief 3 will suck" are really counterproductive. You can't expect the developers to respond positively to insults, and they tend to bring the forum down. I think some of the complaints based on known facts are justified (lack of rope arrows, lack of swimming underwater, and no SDK planned in first release), but some are just unfounded fears for which a "wait and see" approach would be better. I think that before complaining it would be worthwhile to visit the Ion Storm forum to see what the current plans really are. As Kerghan alluded, our voice has been heard in several areas, and things are looking up.

John D.
28th Feb 2004, 21:47
As I've stated before, I'm very optimistic about how ThiefDS is going to turn out. I am disappointed that it appears the Mechanists will be left out of this one, but I'm glad to see the Hammers again. Hopefully we will get the editor-then everybody can build their own version of the Thief 3 universe, just like all the work that's been done in dromed! (If you think frobbers cathedral was good in T2-just imagine what can be done with the Unreal Warfare engine! Check out some of the UT2003 levels and you'll see what I mean!:D)

tealsmith
28th Feb 2004, 22:44
I can't wait for Deadly Shadows. I'm a little concerned about some of the changes and additions, but otherwise it looks really solid. As for the Mechanists, I'm sure they'll be in there. They just won't have a huge part due to Karras's death. I'm guessing most of them would have melded back into the Hammer society.

Acronomic
28th Feb 2004, 23:00
"Sick of complaints?"

.... yes. :)

Gumdrop
28th Feb 2004, 23:36
I agree that " T3 sucks" complaints don't contribute anything useful to this forum or to the development of the game, but it's also good to see people reacting to the news and rumours. Thief is one of the few titles that has a community that is very passionate about every aspect of the game world, so any alterations that are made to what everyone hopes T3 will be (even minor ones) will undoubtedly cause a stir.

It's like when I first watched the Lord of the Rings films. At first all I could see were the blasphemous changes made to the story, but once I got over them and just viewed the films for what they are, I enjoyed them to no end. I think the same will apply to T3. It will be a good game, and if we get an editor, I'm sure we can look forward to an expansion of the Thief universe the way we see it.

HOC
29th Feb 2004, 01:45
i'd much rather hear the complaints than those who say "don't knock it till ya try it". at least those who complain are taking a stand and are showing that they really are fans of the series, and don't want to see the series go to waste due to poor ideas and decisions.

what do those "stop complaining" people add to discussions? nothing. they just want people to sit back and wait for what may possibly be an inferior game. but they'll like it just because it has the thief title. quite a few examples are floating around already.

sure, the complaints are plentiful. but they've contributed to more discussions than anything else. let the people voice their concerns, and let's hope the concerns are proven false.

Peter_Smith
29th Feb 2004, 01:51
Voicing concerns is fine. Voicng them like an idiot is not. Yeh, sure, idiocy is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the concept can be understood. :)

thegrommit
29th Feb 2004, 02:46
Originally posted by HOC
what do those "stop complaining" people add to discussions? nothing. they just want people to sit back and wait for what may possibly be an inferior game. but they'll like it just because it has the thief title. quite a few examples are floating around already.

sure, the complaints are plentiful. but they've contributed to more discussions than anything else. let the people voice their concerns, and let's hope the concerns are proven false.

So repeating the same complaints over and over somehow contributes something?

I said it in Huntress' locked thread, but it bears repeating. The vast majority of complaints have been over relatively trivial (IMO) issues - e.g. the games name, or the substitution of one gadget for another (climbing gloves vs rope arrows).

As an example, people are bemoaning the loss of rope arrows. Yet there's no discussion on the nature of their replacement. Are they essential? At what point can you buy them? Do they have a limited useful life? Can you hang from a horizontal surface? Instead what we got was a lot of whining about how people wouldn't buy the game (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33579) because their favourite gadget had been dropped.

What matters is the games focus - evasion over combat, atmosphere over mayhem, intelligence over reflexes. That's the core of the Thief gameplay, not the gadgetry.

HOC
29th Feb 2004, 05:56
Originally posted by thegrommit
So repeating the same complaints over and over somehow contributes something?


yes. believe it or not, someone else may add something new to the discussion somewhere down the line.

how in the world do you expect there to be a discussion on how the WCG will be implemented, when all we know is it's a replacement for the rope arrows? until IS release more info on them, all anyone can do is speculate. and some people might not be so optimistic, while others will be. all i will say though is if the WCG is utilized in such a way it can easily be abused (like being able to climb on any surface), then the gameplay will more than likely be diminished greatly. it's bad enough i fear that the only reason why the WCG has replaced the rope arrows is cause it allows IS to put less attention in level design. there's your commentary on this topic.

by the way, explain to me how the gadgetry of the game doesn't tie into evasion, intelligence, and atmosphere? the gadgets are just one of the elements that made thief so great. matter of fact, first two games put quite a bit of focus on the gadgets. from placing items in certain locations, to where ya could use them and wisely. and lets not forget that not everyone played the game just to sneak about. the game did allow the player to choose what he could and could not do in most levels.

let the people whine. if they don't wanna buy the game because "their favorite item was removed", what are you gonna do? put a gun to their head? if they're right, they're right. if not, then their tunes will change. we only have a few months left to go.

Squid
29th Feb 2004, 09:20
What I'm sick of isn't people complaining, it's "Thief 3's gonna blow chunks, and you're all d********* if you think otherwise." You want to complain? Fine. Do it intelligently. Discuss the issues, encourage change. Don't act like anyone who disagrees with you is stupid and not worth your notice.

No, I don't want to see an inferior game, but I personally don't believe that freaking wall climbing is going to ruin the game! Of ALL the things talked about, what I'm most concerned with is the lack of swimmable water. But I don't know the reason this was removed, and until I know, all I can do is speculate. And speculating, either good or bad, gets us NOWHERE.

Water, rope arrows, and other assorted things may have been removed due to limits of the engine. They may have been removed because the plot doesn't call for them. They may have been removed because The Pope said they were satanic, for all I know. But acting like I know, when I don't, only inflames the issue and contributes nothing to the discussion at hand. We need FACTS, not speculation.

In short, please, if you're going to complain, don't insult others, the game, or whatever. Voice your concerns in an intelligent fashion and discuss things calmly with the other forum members.

Squid

p.s. I'm really tired right now, and I easily could be taking more offense to this than was meant. If no offense was meant, then I take none. And please, I'm also not trying to be offensive, either. So, please, do not take anything above as me trying to insult someone, for it is not meant to be. Also, it's not really meant to be directed at any one person, just certain comments here set me off. Again, no offense is meant. Thank you.

p.p.s. My signature here reflects the death of Looking Glass Studios, and what we feared was the death of the Thief series. It will NOT change until I have a game, starring our favorite Thief, that I feel is a worthy sequel to the first two games.

HOC
29th Feb 2004, 22:51
ok, if you're sick of complaints, TFB. if you're sick of cheapshots that say "t3 will suck because...", i hear ya.

most posts are put in a rather civil manner. only what? 4 or 5 people have actually said the game will suck before they tried it (from what i've seen). but i've also seen double that figure for the people who say "t3 will be great!!!1!!" so clearly those people are showing the same lack of intelligence as those denouncing the yet to be released game. not meant as an insult.

and no squid, i didn't say "those who aren't complaining aren't real fans". i said those who are complaining are showing themselves to be fans. why? cause they're obviously passionate about the changes, which says to me that those things that have been removed gave those people some fun in the previous games. anyone that accepts changes could be either a veteran or some new player. just brushing the choice off like it means nothing. kinda hard to tell who's who in that regard.

so, in the end, i still stand firmly by what i've said before. let the people complain. those that are right will be right. those that are wrong will regret their doubts. it's either ban em, or get used to them. complaining about complaints is nothing more than a double standard.

Peter_Smith
1st Mar 2004, 05:54
So, HOC, you are complaing about people who complain about complaints.

Well, I would like to go on record here and complain about people who complain about people who complain about complaints. Now, if that position draws any complaints, then we could end up with fewer complainers who complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain about complaints. :D

Squid
1st Mar 2004, 06:34
HOC, I just reread your post, and you're correct, you DIDN'T say what I thought and posted you said. I interpreted what you said the wrong way, and I'd like to take this moment to apologise. I am sorry for falsely accusing you. Please accept my apology. I will edit my post to remove that sentence.

Usually I'm pretty quiet about my preferences, but these recent postings, (ever since the T3 website went live, I believe?) have gotten me stirred up. I like rope arrows, and don't want to see them removed, but I am wanting to see how the climbing claws work. CCs are something I wanted since the 1st game.

Swimmable water.... definitely should be included. I'm actually very surprised that it's gone. (Wadeable water only.) I'd like to know the reason why it's gone. That, I feel is a must.

SDK... (what does that stand for, anyway? Scenario Design Kit?) another must. The community cannot support the game and keep in running as far as T1/T2 did without one. If not included in the release of T3, maybe in T3Gold?

I am in the group that things that the game will be good. However, that's based on what I've seen and heard. It could suck, it could be ruined, it could be great. I lean to great, but I'm willing to listen to other points of view.

HOC, again, hope I didn't offend you earlier. As we both have pointed out, we want discussions, not stupid insults or "game will suck because..." discussions.

Squid

tealsmith
1st Mar 2004, 13:51
Originally posted by Peter Smith
So, HOC, you are complaing about people who complain about complaints.

Well, I would like to go on record here and complain about people who complain about people who complain about complaints. Now, if that position draws any complaints, then we could end up with fewer complainers who complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain about complaints. :D

I'm afraid I'd have to complain about that.

mtmckinley
1st Mar 2004, 21:58
Originally posted by thegrommit
intelligence over reflexes.

Woah, hold on there, partner! Better not make it too intelligent or it'll take a computer science degree from MIT to play! ;)

Grey Mouser
2nd Mar 2004, 00:13
Originally posted by Peter Smith
So, HOC, you are complaing about people who complain about complaints.

Well, I would like to go on record here and complain about people who complain about people who complain about complaints. Now, if that position draws any complaints, then we could end up with fewer complainers who complain about people who complain about people who complain about people who complain about complaints. :D

Hahahahahahaha- snork...ahem.

HOC -
Constructive Criticism = Good.
Stupid Trollism = Worse than worthless.

Simple...right?

As mentioned above, HOC, you are welcome to post here when you actually have something intelligent to say. So far, you are woefully sub-par in this regard ("zzzzzzzzzzzzz"). Bashing is not the same as constructive criticism, no matter how skillfully (sic) concealed.

Perhaps you could take a college course on intelligent debate and making your point without attempting to insult your fellow gamers? But we'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and hope that you have something other than bashing and insults to share.

theBlackman
2nd Mar 2004, 00:43
I'll wait to see what comes out. But I freely admit, that in my way of looking at things, better graphics at the sacrifice of many of the items (tools and terrain) that made the original games so good, is a step backward.

If it is a shortcoming in the engine, then somebody goofed. If it is shortcoming in an engine that was designed primarliy for consoles, thus necessitating a sacrifice in game play to bring it to PC's, it is a travesty.

But, I'll wait and see. It is not doing the gaming world of THIEF any real good when the game designers themselves say that many of the THIEF world conditions are not in the new game, nor, from what it appears possible. This, in itself, is enough to gender many suppositions and complaints.

HOC
2nd Mar 2004, 04:10
An extremely rude post by HOC has just been excised. HOC, please read my PM and respond to it before you add more fuel to this fire.

Peter_Smith
2nd Mar 2004, 04:58
HOC,

It should be obvious that it is a really bad idea to argue with and insult a forum administrator, especially one with claws. The same applies to moderators, in case you have ideas.... I take it you have not heard of the Iron Claw. You have really crossed the line with that post. I suggest that you delete it or replace it immediately with something a lot more conciliatory or you may hear a large clanking noise.

theBlackman
2nd Mar 2004, 05:13
HOC. The advice given you about debates, and the advice given by Peter, are good. I strongly suggest you take it and apply it.

If, as I suspect, you are a teenager, you do need some study of social interaction skills. If you are not, it would behoove you to develop some.

Notice: I did not 'attack' you verbally. I merely pointed out some obvious problems with your group interaction. And, rather politely at that.

HOC
2nd Mar 2004, 06:09
nah blackman, you're legit. and i do appreciate yours and smith's advise.

but i cannot accept it. grey-mouser decided to post things that i felt were directly contradicting itself. it's quite obvious what his implications were towards me, and because of that, i posted what i did.

if age and maturity was an issue, then he'd be the one to make the first move and edit his post. not me.

now, if it means i get the "iron claws" for returning an attack. so be it. wouldn't exactly make some of my statements false.

and smith, if "zzzzz" offended ya, sorry. didn't intend it that way. it was only done as a brush off to your previous comments. would i be wrong to presume that it was done in humor?

btw, i'm not sure what you meant by "hearing large clanking noise". but i guess for the time being, i can take that as a threat to my security. and because of that, i will be taking a screenshot of your post. just in case =)


It is really too bad you feel so threatened when your transgressions are pointed out...we really hope for better around here. As far as your charge of hypocrisy goes...gee, it takes one to know one, right? ;)

Since you seem unable to obey the rules around here though, you get to experience the consequences (let's see...saying you will do something - like obey the Forum rules - and then not doing it while claiming you have been presecuted...that DOES SOUND like hypocrisy (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=38743&dict=CALD), yes?).

So that's right, you get to experience outlandish and unfair persecution by the Admin. However...notice how - despite your seemingly best attempts - that you are not banned yet?

Why don't you come back maybe when you realize that this is a good place to talk about Thief, and not a good place to vent your frustrations with/about/on other folks.

If you can get that rather simple concept through your brain-paths, then you are welcome here. If not, well as Peter Smith has mentioned, I have claws, and have not even used them yet. Personally, I think you should keep your contructive criticism
going and post here often about what you think of Thief. When your posts go astray towards bashing fellow forum-dwellers and Thief fans, your strategy reeks of trollism. Maybe you should go outside now and then, play some basketball or something? :)

theBlackman
2nd Mar 2004, 06:16
To compound an injury as slight as this by further stirring is a little on the "defend the ego" side.

GM is Greymouser the final and ultimate arbitor of this board. A PM to him, rather than a continued public agitation would be more diplomatic, within the TOU, and to your best interest.

An edit of your post, a PM dialogue with the parties you feel jumped on or ridiculed you would be the most intelligent and productive option.

Peter_Smith
2nd Mar 2004, 08:06
Thanks, theBlackman. Unfortunately, in spite of your / our efforts, HOC is apparently unwilling to put good judgement before ego.

HOC,

You need to settle down. First, you need to read the forum rules. Very carefully, and right away. Second, you should read and respond to my PM, which you have ignored for the past three hours while you posted away. Third, you need to understand that acceptance of administrator's and moderator's warnings, without any public debate, is a condition of your membership, a condition which you have already agreed to. Fourth, you need to understand that this is not a forum for your free speech. You have no first amendment rights here. The forum is moderated, and that is what you have agreed to. Fifth, your statement about taking a screen shot of my post "just in case" is ridiculous. There is no tribunal or due process here. When a moderator detects troll-like behavior, and I am detecting it now, a moderator can take any action he sees fit. In fact Grey Mouser and I have both given you the benefit of the doubt, but the gap is closing quickly.

You seem to not understand my remarks. Perhaps I should have been more direct, but I prefer a more subtle approach. The "large clanking sound", is (obviously) the sound of the Iron Claw that I mentioned. The Iron Claw, in case you do not get it, is a weapon designed by Grey Mouser (a cat has claws) to quickly dispatch trolls. My post about complaining about complainers was partly a joke and partly the truth. I did and still do think that you protest too much, and that is the basic problem we are having here.

OK, enough levity. You have taken much more of my time than I am normally willing to give to someone who will not behave. This thread is closed, and I hope that you do not raise this debate elsewhere in the Eidos forums. Read the rules before you say anything else.