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View Full Version : The hopeful camera vote



gnudiff
23rd Feb 2004, 16:03
I got the PC version of the game, and was pleasantly surprised -- it looks terrific, the plot, while a bit naive, is intriguing enough (this is the first game in the LoK series I have bought), and the characters so far enjoyable (Moebius being my favourite -- the scheming bastard).

Now then, as I played, the first things I noticed after enjoying the great surroundings, were the controls and the camera. I really hated them initiaully. At around middle of Chapter 1 I got so p*d off I decided to look in the forums. I followed the advice and decided to continue playing the game anyway.

Now I am in the start of Chapter 4, with Razael on his first "boss". I can say that the controls and camera, are not THAT bad as I thought initially. However, I believe they are quite bad for several reasons. Some of them have already been posted, so I will recap briefly those which seem important to me, and add a vote so that other players can express their opninion too, and we have some sort of measure -- how many of those reading those forums are satisfied with the LoK:D camera/controls and how many aren't.

If it turns out that many enough people are dissatisfied, I hope it could serve as some incentive for the publisher/developer to release a fix, or at least consider adding an option of "normal" TPS view from behind to the future titles.

Cinematic camera benefits/problems (as all of this post, obviously IMHO):

Benefits:
[list=1]
it looks more pleasing to the watcher
greatly reduced risk of "wrong" camera angles (ie. through wall etc)
you can get better feeling of your character when you can finally see his face too, not just the back.
[/list=1]
Drawbacks:
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major: in combo with the controls, it makes steering your char much more troublesome;
This is mostly at the moments when the camera changes angle, reversing your controls. Can be extremely frustrating, especially in a fight. Consider also controls as per se, -- console based, they don't allow for fine steering, you only have 8 directions despite having mouselook.

major: there are places where you can get in peril/die because of the camera
Simply put, with cinematic camera you walk as if your head was in the clouds. You really have no idea what is right in front of you. The most recent example where this is annoying, is Kain at the 8(or 9?) high pillars -- there is a band of water a bit to one side, which he can approach and TK some archers on the ledge across the water. Guess what? Due to the camera angle, if you simply walk forward to get close enough, you get into water and poof... instant karma.
Even when you don't get in peril, it feels most frustrating to move into new room and have to switch to 1st person every time in order to see what's directly in front of you(!).

I believe that the camera/controls combo could be responsible for at least part of the posts about being unable to find one's way around the game. The combo messes up the sense of direction considerably (Also makes the Moebius' quote "seek west of the pillars" hilarious).

minor: when it DOES get a wrong angle, you can do nothing to fix it.
Closest example again is the same 8 pillars -- at some point there is a fight going on, and I have a couple screenshots with Kain enthusiastically sweeping the sword from behind the pillar. You can see, I think, the tip of his sword, and a side of one of the demons. Out of four.
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Now, I know there are people out there who think camera/controls is great. This is, of course, also the place to vote. But, please, no lame troll posts about me finding a different game, or having lack of experience in games. I have been playing PC games since when I bet 2/3ds of the posters weren't even planned. And liking the game doesn't preclude from criticizing what I find wrong with it.

I can definitely say that I will closely watch the next TPS title I plan to buy, and if it has a similar camera/controls setup (as we can imagine, this being the console port age), I will definitely not buy it. Yes, it was that frustrating.

AndaPanda
23rd Feb 2004, 20:48
I didn't like the camera so much, especially during platform jumping.. As a matter of fact, I can live with all the other minor drawbacks, like not being able to see what's in front of you sometimes, or a pillar obstructing your view in the middle of a fight.. But I just HATED the jumps :( But what can I say, I'm obsessed enough with this series that I'd buy the next game(s) and not care if the camera style wasn't modified. So I checked the third option of the poll :) It would be great if we could choose between the two camera styles during the game though... *prays*

blincoln
23rd Feb 2004, 22:32
It sounds like you are playing with the keyboard. You should buy a gamepad - this is a console port after all. It was designed to be controlled with an analogue stick.

AndaPanda
23rd Feb 2004, 22:41
Originally posted by blincoln
It sounds like you are playing with the keyboard. You should buy a gamepad - this is a console port after all. It was designed to be controlled with an analogue stick.

Hi Ben,
I have beaten the game 2 times using the keyboard, yes. Frankly, gamepads cost too much here in Romania, considering the medium salary is about $100-150 a month. Still, I've heard a lot of people complaining about the camera and they HAVE used a gamepad. Anyway, like I said in my previous post, even if the camera stays the same, I will still buy and enjoy the future game(s) for what they are. I finished Defiance 2 times, and even if I found myself frustrated at some points during the game, I didn't give up playing and I won't do that with any future installment(s), simply because I love LOK.:)

Shifter
23rd Feb 2004, 23:19
i think the camera is just getting used 2 @ start i hated it but after the first encounter with raziel i loved it

Lär
24th Feb 2004, 08:29
Originally posted by blincoln
It sounds like you are playing with the keyboard. You should buy a gamepad - this is a console port after all. It was designed to be controlled with an analogue stick.

Playing with just a keyboard has nothing to do with it. Keyboard with mouse, well that's a different argument. The mouse emulates the right analog stick on a PS2 pad, which pans and tilts the camera. IMO, this feature is pointless, so mouse control is pointless. BTW, what can be done on a console can be done BETTER on a PC, including game control. :p

I played through three times. The first time through, I started out with keyboard and mouse. All other LoK games, since SR1, played fine with this combo. To my dismay, the mouse was a useless piece of equipment for Defiance. :mad: Part way though chapter one, I hooked up my old Interact Propad 6 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00000JBUS/104-3394148-0367126?v=glance&s=videogames&n=507846&me=standard&vi=pictures&img=14#more-pictures) and it improved gameplay drastically. I played up to about chapter 5 or 6, then switched to a Saitek P880 dual analog pad (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/p880.htm), using the D-pad for directionals. This helped improve gameplay even more. I finished the game with the P880, and played a second time with just that controller. The third time through, I used just keyboard controls. Believe it or not, I played better with just the keyboard than when I played with the gamepad!! I think it's a matter of how you have the keyboard configured. I used the standard WASD setup for directionals, while using the numpad for most other actions. This configuration allowed me to used all of my fingers and provided comfortable hand spacing. For those that are stuck with just keyboard controls, may I suggest the following configuration:

W - forward
S - back
A - left
D - right
Q - blood/soul suck
F - objective/status menu
R - pause
left shift - autoface
space - jump

numpad Enter - 1st person view
numpad 0 - spectral shift
numpad 1 - jump (alternate; good for dodging)
numpad 2 - reaver select left
numpad 3 - reaver select right
numpad 4 - lift attack
numpad 5 - action/standard attack
numpad 6 - TK aim
numpad 7 - soul/blood suck (alternate)
numpad 8 - TK blast
numpad 9 - autoface (alternate)
numpad + - sneak


Later! :D

Tall-Guy
24th Feb 2004, 11:47
This Camera angle is nothing to be ween about.
I think camera like that gives a whole new dimension to the game.
In SR2, it LOOKED like a game.
The purpose of the new camera, is to make it like a MOVIE .

Its gives us a better look of nosgoth.
It a little bit hard to get used to,
But we have seen it before - Devil May Cry was one of the best games ever, and it used the same method.
I kinda of happy with this new style.

To bad the game full with bugs :/

Reaper007
24th Feb 2004, 13:15
I played the game with a keyboard and gamepad.

Keyboard + Defiance Cam = Really bad jumps, bad fighting, & strained wrists.
Gamepad + Defiance Cam = Great gameplay!

The first time I played the game with a keyboard those first 2 Sarafan nearly killed me, and it took me 5 minutes to make the first 2 jumps, trying to compensate for the camera move during the jump.

When I played the game with my gamepad the first time, after 5 minutes I was well into the Sarafan stronghold staring at Malek's statue.

The main problem with the keyboard is when the camera moves while doing a jump. When you had Kain jump forward (on screen he would move left) the camera would begin to move behind Kain a little. Since your still pushing the left key when the camera rotates around Kain, Kain will then stop moving toward the location you want him to go, he will start moving circle wise left, then you would try to compensate by pressing the other keys and Kain would fall short. The compensation is 100 times easier with a gamepad joystick.

Reaper007

Blue Winged Fellow
26th Feb 2004, 14:20
I loved the camera. But I have one complain about the controls: The combos, in my opinion, are too difficult to use. Considering that there was an extra button (at least in the PS2 version, the L2 button was never used), I can't see the reason why to use the combos you need to "tap" the analog joystic. Whoever came with that idea needs to reconsider his approach. In my opinion the combos in this game look great, and to make it fun, you should be able to use combos whenever u want and as many times you like in an easy way. I think the "tap the joystic in the direction of the attack" idea in fact stops the player from achieving this goal. Or maybe it just that I can't understand completely how it works, but considering that I've finished the game 3 times already, and still have problems using the combos and have not been able to use Kain's "Force Lightining" on ANY of the enemies, makes me think maybe this is not enterily my fault.

So, if anyone is still reading (specially the programmers) can we make use of all the buttons on the next game, and simplify the combo control a bit or two? (Maybe get some inspiration by the way the finishing moves were used it in Primal?)

unimatrix2612
26th Feb 2004, 19:10
Originally posted by gnudiff
The most recent example where this is annoying, is Kain at the 8(or 9?) high pillars . . .
There are nine Pillars. They represent the principles of Mind, Dimension, Conflict, Nature, Energy, Time, States, and Death. At the center of these eight, between the Pillars of Nature and Energy is the most important of all, the Pillar of Balance.

hippiechk
27th Feb 2004, 13:54
Originally posted by AndaPanda
I didn't like the camera so much, especially during platform jumping.. As a matter of fact, I can live with all the other minor drawbacks, like not being able to see what's in front of you sometimes, or a pillar obstructing your view in the middle of a fight.. But I just HATED the jumps :( But what can I say, I'm obsessed enough with this series that I'd buy the next game(s) and not care if the camera style wasn't modified. So I checked the third option of the poll :)

Ditto.
And I played on a PS2 with an analog controller. Not a PC.

Taank
13th Mar 2004, 17:35
Oh god yes. Please release a patch that creates different camera angle options.

I just bought the game and was immediately impressed with the graphics and combos. Within 10 minutes I was frustrated with the camera angles and decided I am probably not going to continue to play the game.

Didn't Soul Reaver have a button to correct when the camera got annoying? I remember pressing it ALL the time. And, although that was slightly annoying....having no control is insanely annoying.

I'm not inexperienced, I know how to play a game :) But, it being
difficult simply to jump over water because of the camera angle is just pointless.

Oh well, I hope they fix it, I'll live if they dont, I just probably wasted $29.99 or whatever. *shrug*

Taank

Insanity_Shade
13th Mar 2004, 20:19
Originally posted by Taank
Oh god yes. Please release a patch that creates different camera angle options.

I just bought the game and was immediately impressed with the graphics and combos. Within 10 minutes I was frustrated with the camera angles and decided I am probably not going to continue to play the game.

Didn't Soul Reaver have a button to correct when the camera got annoying? I remember pressing it ALL the time. And, although that was slightly annoying....having no control is insanely annoying.

I'm not inexperienced, I know how to play a game :) But, it being
difficult simply to jump over water because of the camera angle is just pointless.

Oh well, I hope they fix it, I'll live if they dont, I just probably wasted $29.99 or whatever. *shrug*

Taank

You haven't. You may THINK you have, after 10 minutes, but give it three hours and you'll know you haven't. Regardless of how many games you've played previous to Defiance, it WILL take you a while to adjust. And when you have, you won't even notice the camera. Well, apart from when a pillar blocks your view, but thanks to autoface that doesn't affect combat much.

Camus Audron
14th Mar 2004, 01:59
Honestly, I was never happy with the change of the camera.

I understand that CD was pressured to imitate the current trend and go with scenic DMC cameras...but they took a lot of the exploration away, first of all this still-point view only allowed you to view what the designers wanted you to view, when in the SR series a lot of the appeal for me is that everything was up to me, I had all the control and I had to explore everything to learn the truth. this new angle completly kills that! there was never a chance that there was a door I missed, since the idiot-proof camera pointed to every place you needed to look at. overall it just made everything too obvious.

secondly, some of the jumps were just imposible, it was specially annoying when you were trying to get out of the earth forge with raziel, and you had to jump trough 3 earth platforms. Having to wait for the camera to switch angles so I could see where the hell I was jumping to always made the time-based platforms disappear before I could jump. it was completly annoying.

I may have passed this if this was some game that I just picked up, but the exploration had always been top-notch in LOK and it made me very angry it had been decreased like that.

This is not a movie, this is a game series, a great game series that used to have top notch exploration but had that taken away from it because of current gaming trends and the popularity of DMC

DMC was great, but so was Soul Reaver, DMC made a great apport to action games with the combo system and the scenic style, and that works for DMC
But lok is a completly separate deal,LOK has a very different style on it's own and it shouldnt get it's exploration elements diminished this bad, just because right now everybody is head over heels with DMC.

Having a better look at the landscape is nice, but not worth taking away the whole platforming and exploring experience from you, if it was up to me the camera should never again settle in a point of view where it cant be moved away from, the ability to make it rotate at any time around the character made the SR series a completly different experience.

that is not to say this is a bad game at all, all I am saying is that a great part of LOKS heritage was taken away from this game, and that had no reason to be so.

kakarot
14th Mar 2004, 02:24
where's the " I didn't like at first but now I'm a jedi with the cam" option???

:D

The Angel of Death
14th Mar 2004, 03:22
the camra jus needed 2 get use 2 & the controls wer fine

also i complainin about with camra & controlls

nichie14
17th Mar 2004, 01:47
Wow Pc Version is awesome!!!, nice high resolution graphics!!!!!! i'm sure PS2 or Xbox fans are full of envy, just kidding. I know this is a topic about control, which i feel is troublesome and irritating at times, well most of the times. Even though it's cool to see the character(much better than behind the back all the time), i think they should look at Prince of Persia the Sand of time, which you can zoom in and out so that you can see the action upclose whenever you want to or far away so you'll know the surrounding enviroment. Hey i was wondering, could any of you guys tell me
1. What's the purpose of killing the Elder God?

I just couldnt' figure out the reason why, is it to free Raziel?
If he controls, live, death, rebirth and the Wheel of Fate, don't you think that that makes him "God" enough?

Thanks

Bruce Lee

PropPolle
19th Mar 2004, 21:21
First off, i don't see why people talks so much about PoP having better camera and all. PoP's camera weren't perfect. I've had times in PoP where the camera was stuck in a way it could never happen in Defiance. Also, the landscape-view function were more or less useless. Didn't let you see much, and the graphics weren't near as great as in Defiance. And the Defiance camera isn't at all that terrible. There's only one point where it was really annoying, that was in the all-fabled pillar jump in Voradors Mansion.
As for the combos, i didn't myself see it as a problem. I have somthing with games with combos in them, as soon as i start playing, i just have to learn all of the combos :p . It's just a matter of practice. I'll try to explain it:
To perform a combo, you first need to trigger an event by making the first attack of the combo (and the only, for the smashing ones). You do so by pressing either the Square or Triangle button, depending on which combo you are trying to use, at the same time as you press the analog stick in whatever direction you wish to attack in. As soon as you've done that, let go off the analog so it automatically falls in place. If you are using a smashing move, then you've now pulled off the move. However, if you're using a repeating attack, then, as soon as you've let go off the analog, rapidly press Square.
Haven't got the PC version, so unfortunately i can't help you PC-owners :( .

nichie14
21st Mar 2004, 06:10
Hmmm... i think you should read what the critics said about POP compare to LOK. Even though i do love LOk, but POP enable you to have the freedom to see everywhere around you, close or far. POP used some of the latest technology to creat its graphics.

Blue Winged Fellow
21st Mar 2004, 13:44
My point about the controls is why do you have to go through all the timing, combine move with attack and "point in the right direction and quickly release" issues when you STILL have an unused button in the controller? not mentioning that R3 or L3 was ALSO not used (can't remeber which one was)!
I think that kind of "combo" moves should only be implemented when you have run out of "controls" or for a "beat them up" kind of game, like Mortal Kombat, or Dead or Alive, which by the way, are not my kind of games.
I think that kind of combo moves works better when you are able to go head to head with another "human", since the error factor is always there. If you want to go against an AI, it will never fail to execute a combo move.

nichie14
23rd Mar 2004, 07:17
If it's too easy then it would not be fun since you can pulll the combo anytime you want. Doing something over and over again gets boring pretty fast. You would lost the " Yes I did it!! " feeling or the "Wow that's cool!"excitment. Furthermore, the enemies would be too easy to defeat even though they are easy as it is already. One more thing, i, Malek, didn't find the combo do be bothersome at all.

love and respect
Nosgion of America

Omni_Sephiroth
23rd Mar 2004, 07:33
I like the Controles it made a nice change from normal PC games, and as for the Camera i was used to it because of Devil may Cry :)