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View Full Version : [SPOILER] Kain and Raziel... friends....



mortaniusgod
22nd Feb 2004, 21:39
Who else was moved when Raziel finally recognized Kain as his friend, at the end of Defiance? That part touched me deep inside my heart. Raziel saying that he was not his enemy, he was his right hand.... my eyes really got all glassy and wet....
I remember I felt not the same, but something similar, somewhat as a warm feeling in Soul Reaver 2, when Raziel and Kain are talking to each other in front of Janos' retreat (post-BO1 era). It is the first time we really see them talking as "friends" (meaning they are not arguing), they are talking.... I remember I really felt happy in that part, because I never liked to watch them fight or argue.

wishmaster
22nd Feb 2004, 22:34
i 2 was touched by this event
*brakes out in tears again*
just wish it could have gone different.
*cryin insanly*
but who am i to change history.
*dies by lack of flued in body*

sniperbr0
23rd Feb 2004, 00:04
I cried a lot in the legacy of kain series, first in SR2, when Janos is killed by the Sarafan Raziel, 2 years ago I thought Janos was his father lol and I thought he was killing his own father! so I cried... In defiance I cried during the battle, I couldnt believe I reached the best moment of the entire series, so I cried... and last the moment which Raziel needs to do the sacrifice to save the world, I thought of the part of SR2 when Raziel wants Kain to sacrifice himself to save Nosgoth and Raziel made the sacrifice... I loved him since SR1, I think I will email CD to make another game where Raziel meets his love: me! lol the secret in the soul reaver games is that Raziel does not tell everyone who he loves... only I knew the secret...

I cry in almost every game!!!

mortaniusgod
23rd Feb 2004, 13:06
I think SR2 and Defiance are by far the most dramatic chapters in the serie.
Anyway,
Why do you people like watching Kain and Raziel fight each other?
I sure don't!!

Zephon
23rd Feb 2004, 15:50
i do

garbagefanuk
23rd Feb 2004, 17:18
I thought that scene was very poor actually. After all he's been through and all Kain has done to him he does a U-turn like that? I thought he changed his mind way to fast. I wasn't moved or anything, i thought the script at the end wasn't very well written. No offense to Amy's writing because i love it, i've never complained about her script writing before, i just thought that scene could have been better?

Also, i liked to watch them fight because thats what Soul Reaver is about. Raziel wanting his revenge on Kain. He might have moved on from pure revenge into needing something from it but the fight is what i have been waiting for. Kain vs Raziel, to finish what they started in Soul Reaver 1.

pel026
23rd Feb 2004, 20:12
Best scence ever saw.

You have to keep in mind that Kain done those stuff to raziel, because he had to. He needed Raziel to defeated the unseen. That why Raziel made his "u-turn" becuase he accept his fate and the facts.

garbagefanuk
23rd Feb 2004, 21:24
Kain knew it all but Raziel never. All he saw was a murial showing him both as Destroyer and Messiah. Raziel has free will, he can do whatever he likes :) Accepting the facts or otherwise. All he simply did was look at a picture and choose to spend the next 1000 locked in a sword.

Caer
23rd Feb 2004, 22:02
And you should remember that Raziel had spent a thousand years as Kain's faithful, loyal, right-hand man. He realized that taking revenge on Kain would be futile in SR2. Remember that he wasn't satisfied in the least by his victory over Kain. Personally, I love the scene dearly. Think of it like this: It was a choice over who Raziel hated the most: Kain or the elder god. He saw that there was one chance to get rid of the elder god, and he took it. Also, you might recall that the elder god intended to imprison Raziel as well, so he really didn't have that much of a choice. And he had to go into the blade at some point. Better to do it now, when it would actually mean something.

I think, in the end, it all boils down to if you like Kain or Raziel better. I'm a big Kain-fan of course =)

...
Boy, that was probably one of the most fragmented posts I have ever made =p

Shifter
23rd Feb 2004, 23:16
what i dont get is that kain was in bo2 such a hard dude killing his vampire uhm b#itch and all now he just keeps saying im not ur enamy while he killed all his betrayers in the past

mortaniusgod
24th Feb 2004, 02:01
He barely knew Umah.... hell, I would have killed the b... myself.
I think throughout the years, kain re-embraced his human side.... and besides Raziel has a portion of his soul. Surely Kain would feel different about him.
PS: Shifter, I'd recommend you to edit your post, otherwise you're going to get yourself banned.

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 03:42
You also have to keep in mind that Kain knows exactly why Raziel wanted to kill him. He manipulated Raziel into that state of mind himself. It wasn't like Raziel betrayed him for no reason. Raziel was merely reacting to the situation that Kain created and Kain knew that that would be the effect. Kain's goal was never to punish Raziel, it was to make Raziel see how some underlying force was manipulating everyone in Nosgoth. That's why Kain didn't want to kill Raziel as a traitor: because Raziel wasn't a traitor. He was doing exactly what Kain wanted him to do.

I thought that the scene in Avernus and the scenes near the end were very well done.

warpsavant
24th Feb 2004, 04:19
It doesn't matter how you spin it, Kain used Raziel.

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 04:23
I know that. That's why Kain didn't get angry at Razy for wanting revenge. Raziel realized that Kain was using him to bring down the Elder God (even if Kain didn't know that's what he was fighting) and Raziel decided it was worth it.

warpsavant
24th Feb 2004, 04:27
I dont know WS. In the end the Elder God didnt appear to bad. I mean, why not just collapse the entire forge while Kain was waiting for his tentacles to grow back? And he really needed THE UBER REAVER to do it?

And like we're really gonna have the Uber Reaver at the start of the next game.

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 04:34
Hey, we might have it. But then there'd have to be Uber Bad Guys to go along with it;)
My theory is that the Spirit Forge dulled the Elder God's powers so maybe he couldn't collapse the building on Kain. And according to the storyline, without the purified Reaver, Kain wouldn't be able to see the Elder God, much less hurt him.

warpsavant
24th Feb 2004, 04:42
Well, I understand he had to "see"

But

He really needed the Uber Reaver to chop some tentacles and poke him in the eye? He didn't even hurt the Elder God. The E.G. should've been killed! He poked him the eye with the UBER REAVER! The whole thing just doesnt sit well with me.

WraithStar
24th Feb 2004, 04:49
Maybe it doesn't sit well with you because the Elder God is just so damn powerful. It's going to be quite interesting if we have to destroy him in the next game. I wonder how Kain's going to do it.

To cut off the tentacles, Kain probably needed to attack both the material and spectral versions of the Elder God. To do that, he would need the Uber Reaver because Raziel's pure soul would allow him to attack in both realms at the same time. That's my interpretation of it.

warpsavant
24th Feb 2004, 04:54
LOL Wouldnt it be funny if he used The Device.

DarkWraith
24th Feb 2004, 11:22
I can see it now.

Kain: "Now hold still Mr Elder God. This won't hurt a bit"
EG: What are those little things your putting on my tenticle.
Kain: What? Oh those? they're just to help you go to sleep is all. Then the device will make you all better. MUHAHAHAHA

No seriously I think the scene was well put together and the voice acting matched the expressions of the characters brilliantly. The whole sequesnce was great.

hippl5
25th Feb 2004, 02:14
Originally posted by garbagefanuk
Kain knew it all but Raziel never. All he saw was a murial showing him both as Destrpyer and Messiah. Raziel has free will,

thats redemer and destroyer....

pawn goes with messiah

LOK kain is the greatest
25th Feb 2004, 02:42
i cried like a maniac when razy killed Kain. I was like "NOOOOOOOOOOO. you blue git he was only trying to help" or something to that effect. and the ending was great.

Originally posted by Warpsavant

He really needed the Uber Reaver to chop some tentacles and poke him in the eye? He didn't even hurt the Elder God. The E.G. should've been killed! He poked him the eye with the UBER REAVER! The whole thing just doesnt sit well with me.

in regards to that

Remeber the Elder god exsists in all times and is now deeply embeded. He exsist's in places Kain cannot find(so he thinks) thats why when kains says he sould borrow deep is he has any chance.

Luv KITG

Shifter
25th Feb 2004, 09:52
what i think is weird is that the elder god didnt teleport himself 2 annother plane i mean he was where raziel started y didnt he go there?

mortaniusgod
25th Feb 2004, 11:59
I don't think the EG has the ability to teleport himself. He is just always there.

Raptor3k
25th Feb 2004, 12:33
Also, what Kain fought was merly and extension of the Elder god. The squid is merly a weed, and to kill him, you have to destroy the root, which i believe Raziel saw at the begining of Defiance...

bish
25th Feb 2004, 14:25
hi

i have a great idea. the elder god is located at the bottom of the lake of the dead, right? anyway, kain dies if he comes in contact with water, so i have the solution.

kain should build a submarine, that he can fit inside. and as his weapon, like a swordfish (so to speak), have the reaver pointing out of the front. then kain can poke EG with it until his hearts content :D:D

i can only imagine the sinister laugh, coupled with the dodgy smile of his from the end of defiance (eek, that was weird).

jobs a good 'un

bish

Solin
25th Feb 2004, 20:27
I loved it when kain hacked at the "god" who's voice changed from that high and mighty tone to that gurgling fear/indignation!
And kain realised that it was this entity that had made him dahm the world, kill raziel and made his life hell.

warpsavant
26th Feb 2004, 03:48
Originally posted by WraithStar
To cut off the tentacles, Kain probably needed to attack both the material and spectral versions of the Elder God. To do that, he would need the Uber Reaver because Raziel's pure soul would allow him to attack in both realms at the same time. That's my interpretation of it. [/B]

He couldn't be harmed in Spectral, as witnessed in the game. I think Kains Iron Sword would have cut tentacles and he could of hit him in the eye with his Mace.




Originally posted by LOK kain is the greatest
in regards to that

Remeber the Elder god exsists in all times and is now deeply embeded. He exsist's in places Kain cannot find(so he thinks) thats why when kains says he sould borrow deep is he has any chance.

Luv KITG [/B]

Wuh-wuh? Yes, the Sarafan are noble and altruistic.


The Root is in the Lost City. The Abyss. The Lake of the Dead. The Hylden probably built the City as some type of weapon against the squid or maybe its where the Ancients worshipped him. In any event, this is where the Elder appears to "end up" IMO.

3pwud
27th Feb 2004, 13:22
But have we all not forgotten that he appeared firstly as a very small squid at the root of the pillars? And then 500 years after he was still at the pillars base but bigger?

Why then has he become omnipotent pretty much in all time scales of Defiance?

And when they fight in Avernus, and Raz falls upon Kain's blade and they say fairwell

Does that bit not remind anyone of Highlander Endgame?
Even some of the lines were used!I will NOT fight you - I will NEVER fight you!

It's an obssession
27th Feb 2004, 20:32
I may be a bit late in saying this, but I just read this today, so bear with me. mortaniusgod - I too cried at Defiance. I cried just after Avernus because I thought Kain was dead, then I cried at the very end. I was so touched by Raziels last lines....and it takes alot to make me cry (except from the movie Pay It Forward) :p

mortaniusgod
27th Feb 2004, 23:35
Originally posted by It's an obssession
I may be a bit late in saying this, but I just read this today, so bear with me. mortaniusgod - I too cried at Defiance. I cried just after Avernus because I thought Kain was dead, then I cried at the very end. I was so touched by Raziels last lines....and it takes alot to make me cry (except from the movie Pay It Forward) :p :) :) :)
IT is a touching moment, you know.... for all of us LOK fans

garbagefanuk
28th Feb 2004, 00:16
Originally posted by hippl5
thats redemer and destroyer....

pawn goes with messiah

Depends on how you look at it.

He was one or the other, he can't be the redeemer and destroyer because its one choice or the other.

It's an obssession
28th Feb 2004, 19:00
I've just read SoulCat's thread "Don't U ppl care?!" and I take it you agree with him, mortaniusgod? I do. I wonder if he's read my "Defiance's Sequel?" thread.... Anyway, I'm glad to see that your thinking the same as me (God help you) :rolleyes: I'm suprised at myself, I can usually control my emotions >sniff<